>> NOW THE MAGA MOVEMENT IS VERY FRACTURED OVER THE IRAN WAR, BUT THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES SOWING DIVISIONS WITHIN.

RAMPANT MY MISSOLE MYSOGYNY.

SAM LABELL WRITES ABOUT THE WOMEN LEAVEING THE NEW RIGHT.

AND HE IS SPEAKING TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT IT.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR WALKING TO US.

>> I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> THE SHORT VERSION IS CONSERVATIVE WOMEN WHO HAVE BUYER'S REMORSE.

>> YEAH.

THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT.

>> HOW DID YOU GET ONTO THIS?

>> I HAVE A SORT OF GROUP OF SOURCES ON THE RIGHT THAT I TALK TO RELATIVELY FREQUENTLY FOR MY WORK.

FOR MY PODCAST AND MY REPORTING.

AND SO I'M KIND OF ALWAYS IN TOUCH WITH THEM TRYING TO GET A SENSE OF WHERE THINGS ARE AT.

WHAT'S GOING ON IN INTERNALLY.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF INTERNAL CONFLICT ON THE RIGHT WE WOULDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW ABOUT IF NOT FOR PEOPLE DOING THIS KIND OF REPORTING.

IN THIS CASE T WAY IT CAME TO ME WAS REALLY LAST FALL AFTER NICK FUENTES, THIS PIP SQUEAK ANTISEMITIC INCEL CHARACTER, HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY TUCKER CARLSON AND A LOT OF THE FALL- OUT FROM THAT, THERE WAS SORT OF INTERNAL TO THE RIGHT A LOT OF DISSENSION OVER IT BUT A LOT OF THE FALL-OUT WAS ABOUT HIS ANTI-SEMITISM AND A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIS RACISM.

WHEN I TALKED TO WOMEN ON THE RIGHT, PEOPLE I KNOW, THEY WERE FRUSTRATED THAT NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT THE MAIN THING, THE KIND OF LEAST IRANIC AND MOST KIND OF OBVIOUS AND PAINFUL ASPECT OF FUENTES'S SELF-PRESENTATION IS THAT HE HATES WOMEN AND IT IS JUST SO APPARENT.

THEY WERE FRUSTRATED WHILE THE RIGHT WAS HAVING THIS INTERNAL DEBATE ABOUT WHERE TO DRAW THE LINES ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM AND RACISM, THEY WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SEXISM WHICH FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE HAS BECOME THE LIFE BLOOD OF THE MOVEMENT THAT THEY ARE A PART OF.

>> SO YOUR PIECE OPENS WITH SOMEBODY CALLED ANNA AND SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED.

BY HER REAL NAME FOR REASONS YOU ARE GOING TO TELL US BUT TELL US ANNA'S STORY.

>> ANNA IS A REPRESENTATIVE CHARACTER FOR CERTAIN KINDS OF YOUNG WOMEN WHO WAS ATTRACTED TO THE RIGHT DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM WHO WAS A VERY TALENTED WRITER, BECAME A POPULAR PUNDIT WORKING IN CONSERVATIVE INSTITUTIONS AND OFTEN WRITING ABOUT WOMEN AS A WOMAN, INCLUDING THIS KIND OF NARRATIVE THAT THE RIGHT WAS ADOPTING AT THE TIME THAT WOMEN ARE REALLY UNWELL, YOU KNOW, THAT FEMINISM HAS DIVERTED THEIR NATURAL MOTHERLY INSTINCTS INTO THIS QUEST FOR WORLDLY SUCCESS, AND NOW THAT THEY HAVE IT, WOMEN ARE USING THIS NEWFOUND AUTHORITY TO PUNISH MEN.

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING ANNA WAS WRITING BUT HER EXPERIENCE IS ONE THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF A LOT OF PEOPLE I TALKED TO IN THE PIECE.

OVER TIME, SHE STARTED TO SEE BASICALLY, SHE WAS SELLING PEOPLE THE ROPE TO HANG HERSELF.

SHE STARTED TO REALIZE THAT SHE WAS PARTICIPATING IN A MOVEMENT THAT WAS USING HER AND THAT IT WASN'T WORTH IT REALLY TO GET THIS KIND OF CAREER AND STATUS ON THE RIGHT AS THE RIGHT SORT OF BASICALLY MADE THEIR WHOLE PROCESS ABOUT PUNISHING WOMEN.

PUSHING THEM OUT OF PUBLIC LIFE AND THE WORKPLACE.

SHE START TODAY SEE THIS WAS WRONG AND SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF IT.

AND THAT IS WHERE SHE CAME TO ME AT THAT POINT, THIS MOMENT OF KIND OF ONE FOOT IN, ONE FOOT OUT.

NOT READY TO COME OUT AND SAY WHAT SHE WANTED TO SAY UNDER HER OWN NAME.

AND I THINK TO BE CLEAR, SHE IS NOT MAKING MONEY ON THE RIGHT ANYMORE.

SHE HAS LEFT THOSE POSITIONS SHE ONCE HAD.

HER MOTIVATION FOR KEEPING HER NAME OUT OF THE PIECE AND I DO BELIEVE THIS, IS OUT OF FEAR.

PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT NICK FUENTES WHO IS ONE OF THE ANTAGONISTS IN THIS PIECE, THEY SAY THEY WILL RAPE, DIE, AND KILL FOR NICK FUENTES.

THEY SAY THIS IRANICLY, BUT NONETHELESS, ANNE IS SOMEBODY WHO LIVES AROUND A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES.

SHE IS SOMEBODY WHO WAS VERY CONNECTED ON A PERSONAL AND PROFESSIONAL LEVEL WITH THIS MOVEMENT AND SHE FEARS RETALIATION.

>> AT WHAT POINT WOULD YOU SAY THE BREAK CAME FOR HER?

WAS IT HAVING KIDS HERSELF WHERE SHE REALIZED A, I DON'T WANT THAT LIFE FOR MY KIDS OR WAS IT REALIZING THAT BEING A MOTHER, BEING A TRAD WIFE WAS HARDER THAN IT LOOKS?

>> WE ARE COMBINING TWO STORIES A LITTLE BIT.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE TO, ALEX KASHUDA WHO IS NAMED IN THE PIECE, SHE DESCRIBES VERY VIVIDLY THAT IT WAS PARTIALLY HAVING KIDS WHERE SHE REALIZED THIS SORT OF TRAD LIFE TREND ON THE RIGHT WHERE WOMEN SHOULD WANT TO BE MOTHERS AND STAY HOME AND MAKE FOOD AND TEND THE GARDEN, THAT WAS RIDICULOUS, THAT WAS ABSURD BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A CAREER.

BUT ALSO, BECAUSE THE IDEA THAT SHE WOULD HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING FOR THE KIDS AN HER HUSBAND WOULD DO NONE OF IT WAS TOTALLY UNTENABLE.

IT WOULD NOT WORK.

IT KICKS THE TRAD OUT OF YOU REALLY FAST, SHE SAYS.

AND THAT WAS A BIG PART OF IT FOR HER, ALEX ALSO TALKS ABOUT WHEN SHE WAS ON THE RIGHT AND BEFORE SHE HAD KIDS, YOU KNOW, SHE ACCEPTED THE IDEA THAT FEMALE CODED THINGS WERE LOW STATUS AND THAT IS SOMETHING SHE EXPERIENCED AMONG THE MEN ON THE RIGHT.

ONCE SHE BECAME A MOTHER AND EXPERIENCED HER WOMANHOOD IN THAT WAY, SHE CEASED TO FEEL THAT WAY.

I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER IMPORTANT PART OF THIS.

WHICH IS THAT WHILE PEOPLE LIKE QUENTES AND ANDREW TATE AND THESE RED PILL AWFUL PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE ARE GOING TO BE AWFUL TO WOMEN.

WE ARE ADVERTISING IT.

OUR AUTHORITY WILL BE FICKLE AND VICIOUS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE THE TRADITIONALISTS WHO ARE SAYING WOMEN NEED TO BE RESUBJECT TO MALE AUTHORITY.

TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON THEM.

WE WILL TAKE THE ABILITY TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT LIFE AWAY FROM WOMEN.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE GOT HERE IS WHAT I DESCRIBE IN THE PIECE AS A PINCER MOVEMENT.

TRADITIONALISTS SAY YOU CAN'T HAVE AN INDEPENDENT LIFE.

YOU WILL BE FORCED INTO A MARRIAGE AND FORCED INTO A HOME.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, ON THE SORT OF RED PILL RIGHT, YOU HAVE PEOPLE SAYING AND, THE AUTHORITY OF MEN IS GOING TO BE AWFUL.

>> WHAT IS FASCINATING TO ME IS THAT I'M WONDERING WHY THEY DIDN'T FIGURE THIS OUT BEFORE.

THESE INCELS, THESE BRUTE FORCE GUYS, WHY WOULD ANYONE GO WITH THAT?

>> THE PROMINENCE OF THESE RED PILL, THE BRUTE FORCE GUYS IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT AND THE ACCEPTABILITY OF THEIR VIEWS HAS GROWN AND GROWN.

THEY UNDERMINE THE PLAUSIBILITY OF THE OLD CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN DEAL.

YOU KNOW.

BECAUSE THAT INVOLVES CERTAIN AMOUNT OF RECIPROCITY, THEY ARE SAYING NO, MEN DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING AND THEY CAN TREAT WOMEN AWFULLY AND NONETHELESS, WOMEN SHOULD SUBMIT TO THEIR AUTHORITY.

THAT BECAME MORE CLEAR IN VARIOUS SPHERES OF THE MAGA WORLD AND THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THESE WOMEN MOVING AWAY FROM IT.

>> WOW WIDESPREAD DO YOU THINK DOES YOUR REPORTING INDICATE THOSE ATTITUDES ARE?

HOW PREF PREVALENT ARE THEY AMONG THE MAGA MOVEMENT?

>> IT IS HARD TO JUDGE, ONE THING TO LOOK AT IS HOW INCREDIBLY POPULAR NICK FUENTES IS.

>> HOW POPULAR IS HE?

>> HE WAS BANNED FROM X AND WHEN HE WAS WELCOMED BACK BY ELON MUSK HIS AUDIENCE GREW FROM A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND TO WELL OVER A MILLION.

HE GETS MORE THAN A MILLION VIEWS ON MANY OF HIS STREAMS.

HIS LIVE STREAMS THAT HE POSTS ON RUMBLE.

AND I HAVE HEARD FROM SOURCES WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THERE IS NO DOUBT THE YOUNGER PEOPLE THAT WORK THERE LISTEN TO HIM.

SO THIS IS NOT QUARANTINED TO JUST THE IDEA OF THE INCEL LOSER IN THE BASEMENT.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WITH ACTUAL POWER OVER POLICYMAKING IN THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT WHO ARE LISTENING TO THIS STUFF, ABSORBING IT AND TALKING ABOUT IT.

ANOTHER SOURCE WHO LIVES ON THE HILL, A CONSERVATIVE, A DEVOTED MAGA OPERATIVE, HE TOLD ME THAT ALL MEN ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS QUOTE UNQUOTE FEMINIZATION OF PUBLIC LIFE.

AND BASICALLY, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THERE ARE TOO MANY WOMEN INVOLVED IN POSITIONS OF POWER.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS I WRITE IN THE PIECE WHICH I THINK SORT OF DOES ENCAPSULATES THIS, IF YOU LISTEN AND YOU PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THE RIGHT, PARTICULARLY THE MAGA RIGHT IS DIAGNOSING, AT THE CENTER OF EVERY PROBLEM IS A WOMAN WITH TOO MUCH POWER.

>> AND HOW WIDESPREAD DO YOU THINK BASED ON YOUR REPORTING IS THIS DISILLUSIONMENT AMONG WOMEN WHO USED TO CONSIDER THEMSELVES PART OF THIS MOVEMENT?

>> THAT IS ALSO HARD TO JUDGE.

THE WOMEN I SPOKE TO SAY THAT EVERY SINGLE WOMAN INVOLVED IN CONSERVATIVE POLITICS KNOWS ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.

AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT WITH EACH OTHER.

WHETHER THEY HAVE DECIDED IT IS FINE, IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL, OR, THEY HAVE DECIDED IT IS A PROBLEM BUT I CAN'T LEAVE THIS IS MY CAREER AND LIVELIHOOD AND I HAVE POLITICAL GOALS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY HURT FEELINGSMENT WHATEVER THEIR RESPONSE TO IT IS, SOURCES I TALK TO SAY ALL WOMEN INVOLVED IN MAGA POLITICS ARE AWARE OF THIS PROBLEM AND YOU SEE IT SORT OF COME OUT IN LITTLE BITS AND PIECES EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

YOU HAVE THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING ON WOMEN IN CONGRESS WHO ARE DISAPPOINTED BY MIKE JOHNSON'S LEADERSHIP SAYING HE IS TOO PATRIARCHAL.

YOU SAW IT WITH THE REVOLT OVER THE EPSTEIN FILES LED BY CONSERVATIVE WOMEN.

IN LITTLE GLIMPSES YOU CAN SEE THIS PROBLEM IS THERE BUT FOR THE MOST PART IN THIS OPERATIVE CLASS OF WOMEN, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT IN PRIVATE.

THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT IN GROUP CHATS.

COMPARING NOTES ABOUT BAD MEN THEY HAVE ENCOUNTERED IN THE MOVEMENT.

BUT THEY ARE NOT FOR THE MOST PART COMING OUT PUBLICLY AND CALLING FOR A RECKONING.

>> THIS IS WHITE PEOPLE I ASSUME.

THESE ARE ALL WHITE WOMEN RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> JUST BECAUSE I'M IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN CONTEXT, JUST, IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEN HAVE JUST A LONG HISTORY OF BEING HEADS OF HOUSEHOLDS, COEQUAL PARTNERS.

YOU KNOW.

ESPECIALLY IN THE MODERN ERA.

>> YEAH.

AND SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE NOTED ABOUT THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON, IT IS MOSTLY WHITE WOMEN WHO GET THESE JOBS WORKING IN CONSERVATIVE POLITICS.

AND, WE CAN APPLAUD THEM FOR, YOU KNOW, COMING AROUND AND SEEING THAT SOUTH AMERICAISM THAT SEXISM IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND THIS IS MAYBE MAKING THEM CONSIDERING LEAVING CONSERVATIVE POLITICS IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

BUT IT IS FAIR TO SAY THEY HAVE TOLERATED AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF RACISM WHICH WASN'T AFFECT THEM PERSONALLY AND IS NOT THE THING THAT HAS PUSHED THEM OUT OF THE MOVEMENT.

THIS MOVEMENT IS UNBELIEVABLY RACIST AND THAT WASN'T THE THING THAT CAUSED THESE WOMEN TO CHANGE THEIR MIND.

>> YEAH, BUT I'M STRUCK BY WHAT SOMETHING ELSE YOU SAID IN THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT NICK FUENTES SAYS GLORIFIES RAPE NOT JUST HIM.

BUT THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN BY FORCE IF NECESSARY.

WOMEN ARE HALF THE POPULATION.

IT IS ONE THING TO DEMONIZE A MINORITY GROUP.

YOU MAY NOT KNOW ANY MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP.

BUT ALL THESE MEN HAVE MOTHERS.

THEY ALL HAVE SISTERS.

SOME OF THEM HAVE DAUGHTERS AND IT IS JUST, IT IS INTERESTING AND I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.

>> YES.

THESE MEN HAVE MOTHERS.

THEY HAVE SISTERS AND THEY MAY HAVE WIVES.

THEY MAY HAVE HAD GIRLFRIENDS.

PART OF THE PROBLEM I THINK AND THIS BECOMES A LITTLE PSYCHOANALYTIC, WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER A WOMAN WITH POWER, THEY ARE REMINDED OF SOME MOMENT WHERE THEY WERE HUMILIATED BY A WOMAN WITH MORE POWER OVER THEM.

WHETHER THAT IS A BOSS IN THEIR WORKPLACE WHO IS A WOMAN OR AN AUTHORITY FIGURE IN A CLASSROOM, A TEACHER, AND THE EXPERIENCE FOR A CERTAIN KIND OF FAR RIGHT MAN OF BEING SUBJECT TO FEMALE AUTHORITY IS TOTALLY INTOLERABLE.

AND IT MARKS THEM AND THEN WHEN THEY SEE SOMEONE, A WOMAN WITH POWER, A POLITICIAN, A WOMAN WITH POWER IN A CORPORATION OR ON TELEVISION EVEN, THEY ARE REMINDED OF THIS SORT OF PRIMORDIAL EXPERIENCE OF BEING HUMILIATED BY A WOMAN WITH POWER AND THEY HATE THEM.

IT IS NOT CRAZY TO SAY THESE COME FROM DEEP EXPERIENCES THAT MEN HAVE.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE HAD BAD EXPERIENCES IN KINDERGARTEN THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO PAY FOR?

IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

>> IT COULD BE JUST AS PATHETIC AS THAT.

IF YOU WATCH THE WAY PETE HEGSETH BEHAVES ON TELEVISION, HE SEEMS TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, REAL ANGER TOWARD WOMEN AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY OVER HIM.

AND THAT SEEMS TO MOTIVATE A LOT OF THE WAY HE BEHAVES.

WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT TRUMP WHICH IS WILD.

THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS, BUT, WE, YOU DON'T FORGET, IT IS POSSIBLE TO FORGET HIS COMING TO POWER WAS THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD TAPE AND DEFEATING HILLARY CLINTON WHO IS LIKE THE EMBLEMATIC FEMALE PROFESSIONAL IN THE MINDS OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT.

ALSO THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

>> AND THEN KAMALA HARRIS AS WELL.

>> AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF MEN IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

TRUMP'S SUCCESS AND THE SATISFACTIONS OF IT ARE NOT ANGLEABLE FROM THE HUMILIATION OF HILLARY CLINTON AND KAMALA HARRIS AS WELL.

>> WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT TRUMP IS HOW MANY WOMEN IN HIS ORBIT HAVE HAD SIGNIFICANT POWER.

HE DID APPOINT THE FIRST FEMALE CHIEF OF STAFF IN WHITE HOUSE HISTORY.

THAT IS A FACT.

HIS PRESS SECRETARY HE SEEM TO THINK HIGHLY OF IS A WOMAN.

THE HEAD OF ONE OF HIS LARGEST DEPARTMENTS KRISTI NOEM.

THAT IS ONE OF THE AGENCIES THAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR PROMINENCE IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.

SHE DID HAVE THAT ROLE.

IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT HE DID CONSIDER WOMEN AS RUNNING MATES.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU INTERVIEW THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

WHAT DID THEY SAY?

>> I THINK THAT IS A GOOD POINT.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRUMP AND THE MOVEMENT THAT HAS GROWN AROUND HIM.

AND I THINK WHATEVER WE WANT TO SAYABOUT TRUMP, HE HAS WON TWO NATIONAL ELECTIONS BECAUSE HE HAS A FEEL FOR HOW TO BUILD PLAUSIBLE MAJORITY FOR HIS POLITICS.

A LOT OF THESE RIGHT WING PEOPLE, THEIR PROJECT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

THEY ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN THIS AUDIENCE AND KEEP THEM RABID AND ANGRY AND CLICKING ON THEIR VIDEOS AND WATCHING THEM.

AND THERE IS TENSION BETWEEN THIS PART OF THE MOVEMENT THAT FEELS NO COMPUNCTION.

AND THE POLITICAL PROJECT OF TRUMP AND MAGA THAT NEEDS TO TRY TO WIN MAJORITIES.

AND YOU KNOW, WIN IN 2028.

WHOEVER THE CANDIDATE IS.

AND THERE IS A FEAR ABOUT THAT I THINK.

YOU ARE STARTING TO SEE PARTLY WHAT THIS PIECE IS ABOUT.

BUT IN OTHER SECTORS TOO THERE IS THIS FEAR OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN TRUMP LEAVES THE STAGE?

IF TRUMP IS NOT THERE, WILL JD VANCE HOLD THAT COALITION TOGETHER?

THAT'S THE FEAR I THINK.

THAT IS REPRESENTED BY ALL OF THIS CON TESTATION OVER WHETHER IT IS SECKISM OR THE CONVERSATIONS OVER ANTI- SEMITISM.

THIS IS THE FEAR.

AND CONSERVATIVE OPERATIVES, PEOPLE WORKING IN THE MOVEMENT DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE TRUMP DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR OR BE REMINDED OF THE FACT HE WILL NOT BE IN CHARGE FOREVER.

BUT THAT IS WHY THIS IS HAPPENING.

>> SAM ADLER-BELL, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, THIS WAS REALLY NICE.

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