- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, we call it holiday cheer, but for some it's the season of emotional spending, guilt and regret.

What's really driving our need to shop?

And how can we stop before it costs us more than money?

We're exploring what fuels compulsive shopping and how to break free before the New Year bills roll in coming up next.

Stay with us.

- [announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

- Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

Ready or not, the holidays are here, typically a time for joy, generosity and celebration, but for many it's also a time of pressure.

The pressure to give to keep up to spend beyond what we can afford.

There's actually a name for this, and our first guest is here to share some effective strategies to help you navigate these challenges.

Later in the show will meet a financial architect who will share some advice that's helped several of his clients reclaim control of holiday spending without losing the joy of the season.

But first I want to welcome back Sarah Wilder, a clinical addictions specialist and owner of Right Side Perspective.

She helps clients understand the roots of their behavioral addictions.

Welcome.

- Thank you for having me.

- It's good to have you here.

You've shared so much insight in the past about addiction and here we are at the holiday season.

And what came to mind was I mean, and I'm the first to admit to this.

I love to shop.

- It's my guilty pleasure, right?

- It is my guilty pleasure, but it can truly be a problem.

And so when we think about this season, the compulsion to shop the ads that are constantly being thrown our way.

Let's talk about how similar shopping addiction might be to other addictions that we know of and what are some of the causes?

- Yeah, no.

So even though it has a very different presentation and this one's a tricky one because it's not really a disorder, it's kind of a lifestyle.

You know there's a fashion.

Whether you're interested in fashion or we're just interested in things or trying to find things that make your life easier.

Shopping is something that we have to do, so this tends to kind of fall in more of what we call a process addiction, which kind of correlates with what I've been on the show.

Talking about with eating and the relationship with food.

It is a behavior that we have to do in order to be healthy and to engage in our society, but we also have very little awareness about what motivates it, and that's pretty much what addiction thrives off of.

It's something becomes addictive when we have little awareness about how it operates.

So for this, a lot of it is learning about how we, as humans, we operate, how we're motivated.

- Yeah, and we know that obviously shopping addictions has financial impact, and we'll talk about that a little later, but it has mental and emotional impact.

Talk about the ties to that.

So I think the culture around mental health is opening up.

There's a lot of different information, but dopamine has been one of those topics, at least I've seen people understanding more of like dopamine seeking, but really it's pleasure seeking.

It is trying to help our brains help itself to like trying to balance from pain and pleasure.

So shopping, at least for me, has always been one of those things that like, let me just go distract myself from the things I don't want to do, the things that I don't really feel motivated by that bring me down and cause me to overthink.

If I'm not aware about what's happening internally, those things become a lesson for my brain to be like, oh, this is the thing that actually helps her feel like she can go back to do those things that she doesn't want to do.

It just can't be the only thing.

- Yeah.

I've noticed with me, I find myself shopping when I need to pick me up.

I can't eat as much anymore because of digestive issues.

But I'm like, I kind of funneled that into another area.

And so what are, I don't want to call myself a shopping addict, but what are some signs to help me know if I am or if I'm not?

- Well, I think there's a lot of them.

From starting from like more severe and working my way back, is this is where we start to see it causing negative consequences in our life.

Is it causing tension within family because it's not, it's causing a financial issue.

Is it causing distraction?

And is it something that you're just not engaging with your family or your kids about because you're online scrolling and not able to stop yourself?

I'd say one of my personal opinion, like destructive, like worrisome, preventative things is if you're in a state of denial.

And it doesn't mean that you don't want to identify as someone who has an addictive personality or something.

But if you deny any part of your reality as being a possibility, then you're limiting your perspective on how it's going to be problematic in the future or has already become problematic.

- Yeah.

What's an example of that?

- "I don't have a problem."

[laughs] Just any kind of form of denial of like, oh no, it's not possible.

Honestly, everything in life is possible.

Not to deviate from what we're talking about, but I just recently saw someone say like, the disability population is one of the populations that you could immediately become within a second.

If you have an injury, you have a fall, you may not become immediately disabled, but over time if your body doesn't recover and help you get back to a way of life where you can produce and provide at the same level of expectation, that it's a possibility.

So addiction is really a lot of what I want people to understand is how we as humans are biologically built.

When we don't know how we operate, we don't know how to pay attention and not fear losing control.

Fear exacerbates that loss of control.

- When we look at how easy it is to access stuff, we call it fast fashion, Amazon.

I mean, again, Amazon package.

It's gotten better, but maybe weekly.

But when I look at the needs, I don't feel like it's necessarily like I want it.

It's I need it.

I need to replenish Swiffer pads.

I need to buy more dog stuff.

How do we though mitigate all of the possibilities that are there?

The Amazon, the Fashion Nova, not to call it certain companies or businesses, but everything has such an easy access.

How do we work around that?

Well, and that's part of addiction too, is that we're not all to blame.

There's no one person at fault.

The system does contribute to our immediate gratification and our attention to certain things.

But at least how I do this is because I do have Swiffer pads, but I also have a broom.

Yeah.

I go back and forth between the convenience things that I have become dependent upon that make my 2025 lifestyle go smoothly.

But then I also depend on the things that existed when all of that immediate action didn't exist.

Taking a broom and it's not always like sometimes we need convenience, but we need to start splitting some of our time away from things and grounding ourselves and really the process.

Same thing with eating and we had this conversation and another show is sometimes it's just getting in the kitchen and not buying a ready-to-go meal and taking the time to throw something in the crock pot.

There's still a level of immediacy there.

Crock pots didn't really exist in the 1920s, but we can still become more mindful of the time that we take to do and accomplish something.

- I think too part of it is that self-awareness of recognizing when we are being targeted.

Again, we live in a very ad saturated society.

Marketing is at its height with social media, scrolling.

There's an ad every other post.

- That's how you make money.

- That's how you make money.

How can we be conscious about recognizing the difference between being sold to and actually needing a thing?

That's a really great question and I'm not really sure there's one answer.

But the sole purpose is knowing yourself, knowing really what it is that you need or can you maybe even delay that necessity a little bit more?

Yes, of course, we all like to have a new piece of clothing in our wardrobe.

But can we take the time to actually go to, so for me, instead of shopping online, I force myself to go to thrift stores or to Plato's Closet, take things out of my wardrobe that I really don't wear anymore, and then go take the time to actually slow myself down and look for really what I want and need and not just want because it's right in front of me.

- What are some tips you have around this holiday season?

A lot of families I hear are not doing the gift-giving thing.

But what if someone does still want to give a gift?

How do we balance that?

If someone is a self-proclaimed shopping addict, how do we start that recovery?

- Yes.

I think we were having a conversation earlier about just having the conversation with your family.

That looks different every year.

I'm not saying not get something, but maybe take a little bit more time to be thoughtful about what that person would really actually utilize.

I know over the years of me trying to reduce my dependency on convenience and the immediacy of buying, it just took more time to like, "Okay, what would my mom actually utilize versus just getting her the same thing?"

She's always very hard woman to shop for because she will buy anything that she wants anyway.

Right.

But maybe replacing slippers or making a donation in something that she's interested in.

It doesn't always have to be a tangible item, but it can be thoughtful.

If you do feel like it's becoming problematic, this is where reaching out and looking for information about how to understand what deficits are in your life.

Because addiction, again, it's not just one thing.

It's brain chemistry, it could be a nutrient deficiency, it could be a hormone imbalance that really we have to peel the layers back and look at what does this individual person need to be able to stay grounded in having control over their own thought processes.

- Last question real quick.

If we notice a family member or friend that seems to be going down that path, how do we help them?

- Carefully, but confidently have a talk with them.

Say, "I'm noticing these things."

Try not to make it accusatory.

It's an observation of these things don't seem to be things that you have some consideration about, and maybe we should look at getting you help.

It's going to be a multiple, probably layered conversation, but starting it is what's important.

As I'm concerned, I would really like you to take more care of yourself and we'll find someone to help you.

- Well, thank you, Sarah.

I will be more conscious this holiday season about my shopping.

But I hope our viewers have gotten some tips and hopefully it can mitigate some financial and mental impact.

- Yeah.

Shopping local never hurts.

- That's right.

Well, now I want to take a step back and take a look at how those internal drives, the rush, the relief, the regret, how they play out on a broader level.

Here's a short piece featured on Fox Network's Isaiah Factor Uncensored that looks at some of the cultural and economic forces that influence how and why we spend.

Take a look.

- There was a time when blacks were denied access to the nicer products sold in America, like clothes and even food.

Store owners would provide subpar products that had a lasting and psychological impact.

When blacks were finally able to shop at mainstream stores, they didn't skip a beat, even going for the nicer items, even if they couldn't afford it.

Now, take a look at this.

This was a marketing tool for store owners back in 1954.

- Here is what sales psychologists have to say about selling to the Negro.

- The secret of selling to the Negro is expressed in one word.

That word is recognition.

Now, there's nothing unusual about that.

People want to be recognized.

They need recognition.

That's basic in all of us.

But perhaps because he's had so little of it, the Negro needs even more.

He needs to feel important and appreciated.

This need is a very real and important one.

It shows up even in many of the Negro's shopping habits.

Anyone who sells or wants to sell to the Negro customer should know about some of these habits.

Three habits in particular play a big part in every sales transaction.

To begin with, most Negroes buy by brand.

They ask for products by name.

They're quick to turn down off brands.

Do you wonder why?

Well, listen to what this customer is thinking.

- That last hat I bought just didn't hold up at all.

- You see, for a long time, the Negro has been sold a lot of shoddy, second-class merchandise.

So now he asks for name brands in order to make sure he gets his money's worth.

- Kind of jarring, isn't it?

Welcome to "The Factor Uncensored."

Many experts say the lingering effects of being treated like a second-class citizen in America for decades is still having a long-lasting impact on blacks today.

How does that look?

Spending more than you're saving, focusing on name brands to have that feeling of importance while impressing others instead of buying land while building generational wealth.

Some say the marketing tools used on blacks in 1954 is still working today.

- Once again, that's from the "Isaiah Factor Uncensored" on Fox.

And understanding that context helps us see that overspending isn't just about impulse, it's really tied to identity, history, and the pressures that we navigate every day.

With that in mind, it's time to talk solutions.

Our next guest is a financial coach who specializes in helping people enjoy the biggest spending season of the year without blowing their budget financially.

Financial strategist Ryan Ray is the founder of Triangle Entrepreneurial Leadership, and he helps individuals and families make sense of their money and find freedom in how they spend and save.

Welcome, friend.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- So good.

So good to have you here.

- I'm glad to be back.

- That piece, I know you said you'd seen it before, but talk about what that message is really saying to us.

- Yeah, I mean, I think it's very interesting that, you know, we're talking about holiday spending, and it's really something that's just transcended time.

It was started off as a way, OK, how do we get the money out of the pockets of African-Americans?

And that has just continued, and it's evolved over time.

And I think the message is that it is very intentional, that it is a design, it is structured.

These companies aren't making charitable contributions to media, right?

There is an absolute ROI that they're expecting, and that comes from our consumerism.

And I think the only way you really begin to overcome some of these challenges, kind of as Sarah was saying, is you got to first understand the fights you're fighting, and you are really fighting media and this over-saturation of information and consumerism.

I got to have it, I need it, I deserve it.

All these things that cause us to then make these impulse decisions.

- And it's a lot easier to do it now with all the access that we have to purchase.

Yeah, just like we were talking about before.

So when we think about, let's just dive right into it, keeping the joy in the holiday, a lot of us associate that with spending money, whether that's going out to eat, buying all the gifts, Black Friday shopping.

How do we still retain the joy and not break our bank accounts and be broke come the new year?

- Yeah, I mean, I think that's just it.

It's not about taking the joy out of Christmas, but it's also about not taking the joy out of January, right?

Because January is coming.

And I think it's coming, right?

And I think the way you avoid that is you have to kind of look beyond Christmas, this very short-term window where you're stressed all the way through it, right?

You're stressed when you get the Christmas list from the kids.

You're stressed when you got to go buy it.

You're stressed while you're wrapping it.

Should I take this back?

Have I overdone it?

You're certainly stressed after you give it because now you can't take it back.

And then now come January, I'm stressed because the bills are on the way.

And I think if we can look over into January and say, well, what I want my January to feel like, what I want the first quarter of my new year to feel like, that then impacts my decisions today.

- That means we need to be financially planning.

- We have to be financially planning, right?

I mean, that's just, that's part of it.

I mean, I remember growing up, my parents would go shopping.

My father made pretty good money, but they still borrowed the money.

And we spent, I spent hours, I can wrap some Christmas gifts because I spent hours wrapping Christmas gifts that 80% of them went outside of our home, right?

My mom loved to give, right?

But at the same time, there is some conditioning to, let's prove that we're doing all right, right?

By giving to other people, but then who suffers?

- Right.

Well, on that note, like with my kids, we have the conversation and I have to admit, I love my kids, of course, but they are kind of conscious.

You know, for the last few years, they're like, mom, we don't really need anything.

And yeah, I mean, we might want these things, but we don't need it.

And even this year, Caleb was like, I just want a new headset.

That's it.

And that's fair, right?

And so what are some practices that we can put in place in the family dynamic to start shifting that ideology behind spending so much money around Christmas?

- Yeah.

You know, I think if we can get out of the mindset of performing Christmas, right?

And experiencing Christmas.

And I think the performing is just what we talked about, right?

It's the spending, it's what we've done for years and get back to, you know, a little bit exaggerative, right?

But going back to, again, my parents, they said they would get an apple and orange, you know, a couple of pecans and a brown paper bag and they were thrilled, right?

But it was really more about the family, right?

The chocolate cake that grandma made or the food that they shared or everybody coming over and hanging out, right?

Just sitting around the table, having conversations.

And that's just become more of, all right, here, what's next?

And, you know, I see the kids now, they open a gift and that dopamine factor is, well, where's the next one?

Right, well, where's the next one?

And then they open five or six gifts and they're still looking around, where's the next one?

Right, and then 20 minutes later, they're playing with a brush and a tooth and a comb.

- Right.

- Right?

- And those expensive gifts are just sitting there.

- Just sitting there.

- Setting the expectation, right?

Having that conversation about what Christmas looks like, what the next year is gonna look like.

I think that that's an important conversation to have, right, especially with our kids.

- For sure.

- 'Cause then we start that behavior.

- Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you know, you talked about needs and wants in the last segment, right?

And, you know, I think our needs are pretty simple, right?

And it has become exaggerative, all the things.

I don't know that we need a bundle of Swiffer pads.

But, you know-- - I get that, Ryan.

(laughing) - However, but I think it is important to understand what we want.

But also understand that you can't have everything, right?

So when you talk about financial planning, when you talk about looking down the road, like, what are the things that you really want?

You don't want stuff that you can't use, right?

Like, nobody feels good just, I mean, unless that's an addiction, stacking stuff.

Like, what do you really want?

Do you want the vacation?

Do you want the experience?

Do you want the one good pair of shoes, right?

And now if you can understand what you really want, you plan accordingly, and then that, again, impacts your behaviors today.

We don't look far enough down the road.

- And some behaviors are planning, like saving at the, so let's say, you know what, we're gonna just scratch this Christmas, but we wanna make next Christmas.

- There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

- It is, it may seem like, you know, it's far away, but that's part of being financially smart.

- Yeah, it is.

- For lack of better words.

I wanna pull in these services like Klarna and Afterpay.

What are your thoughts on those?

Because it doesn't necessarily impact credit, right?

- It doesn't, but it's why they're available, because people no longer have to use credit, right?

They've exhausted their credit, so they can't use traditional loans and traditional banking, so now there's this modern-day layaway, right?

Remember, you could go to Walmart and lay, and stuff would just be stacked up in the back.

They couldn't even keep it all in the back anymore.

It's just modern-day layaway, and what happens is, again, you're taking the joy out of Christmas, because you know, come January 5th, you got four payments coming out, right?

That first of four payments that are coming across, and so, again, it's another way that media, retail outlets have figured out how to just continue to keep that consumerism turned on, and how do you know when you're in that?

Is when you're in it, because if you couldn't afford it, to pay for it at once, you probably can't afford it, although they broke it down into four easy installments.

- Right.

If someone is looking to start a plan fresh, what's the first plan, or what's the first step to integrate, like what do you tell your clients if they're looking to kind of revamp their finances?

- Yeah, again, goes back to what I said before, decide what you want, right?

And not just today, if you look down the road, you know, there's gonna come a point in time where you can no longer produce, right?

Your productive capacity, be it a disability, age, health, it's gonna become a time where you can no longer go out, work, produce, exchange your time for money, or a skill set for money.

If that's 50, 60, whatever that is, go down there, turn around and look back, and say, what do I wish I would have done to end up where I wanna be?

- But like, if I sat down right now at my table, do I take a pen and paper out?

Do I go through my bank account?

Like, what are the actual steps?

- Yeah, absolutely, so I think the first thing is to begin to think, look at your spending, know what's coming in, right?

How are they coming in?

A lot of people, maybe it's one stream, two or three streams, look at what's coming in.

And now take that and begin to allocate it across a couple of beans.

One, 50% into maybe lifestyle, right?

What is it that you wanna do?

Another, maybe 30% into saving, investing for that long term.

And then maybe another 20%, you're gonna eliminate debt, maybe create that emergency fund.

So it's beginning to delineate and separate what is coming in so that you can begin to build those nest eggs, if you will, build those compartments that will create for you the lifestyle that you want.

And I think, again, it goes back to that question.

To me, that is the genesis of it.

What is the lifestyle you want?

Because ultimately, you're responsible for creating it.

No one else is.

And so that first starting point is, 'cause if you don't have a plan for your money, somebody else does, right?

And so it starts with having that plan.

And sometimes it's a pen and paper, sometimes it's just sitting on the porch, being quiet and doing this thing that we've quit doing, which is called dreaming, right?

What is the life I want to create?

For myself and my family.

- And I know we only have a couple minutes and this is probably a bigger question to ask, but we have a lot of people who are experiencing layoffs and who are experiencing financial drowge or scarcity.

What are some tips for them around this holiday season?

Not even about buying gifts, but just surviving.

- I think it's, again, taking a look at what's coming in, taking a look at what's going out.

And there's two places where you can impact that.

And most people think if I can create what's coming in, that solves my problems.

But if it's coming in just as fast as it's going out, you still haven't solved the problem.

So the thing that you can control most urgently is what's going out, right?

And begin to reduce some of those expenses and things that are going out.

Subscriptions, right?

What are those three, four, five, $20 here, $30 here.

I mean, I overlooked one the other day, 100-some dollars for Evernote, right?

Like, I'm like, "Oh, I can't believe I missed that."

Right, and you just forget these things.

- And it may be an opportunity to look at lifestyle.

Like, am I living beyond my means, even when I did have a job, right?

Because we should be able to sustain at least a little bit if we were to lose, if we weren't already living beyond.

- Yeah, I mean, I think we have to prepare to mitigate against the unknown and the uncertainty.

And so many times we haven't because of the overspending, because of the overconsumption, the elevated lifestyle.

You spend everything.

There's no way you can save.

- How can folks get in touch with you if they need something?

- You can follow me across all social media at RyanRayOfficial, also my website, RyanRayOfficial.com.

- Wonderful, thank you so much for your time.

- My pleasure, thanks for having me.

Absolutely.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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