- [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Un-Spun," who is spinning who?

In the White House press room, it's a war of words between the president and the reporters who cover him.

But is it information or manipulation when both sides know that you can't win if you don't spin?

We'll talk with former White House Press Secretary, Sean Spicer, about what's going on behind the scenes, how decisions are made, and how the game is played.

Plus, I'll count down the top five ways both the media and political press secretaries spin the message.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in, here on "Un-Spun."

(upbeat music) Good evening.

I'm Pat McCrory and welcome to "Un-Spun," the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying In football, the ultimate game is the Super Bowl.

In basketball, it's the Final Four.

In baseball, it's the World Series.

Once a year, the best against the best, winner take all.

But in politics, the ultimate spin game is played every day in the White House press room.

- The President was begging the question that I think a lot of journalists in this room should be asking.

- President Biden is the oldest president in US History.

Why does White House staff treat him like a baby?

- No one treats the President of the United States, the commander in chief, like a baby.

- I would refer you to the Department of Justice, would refer you to the State Department, and I would refer you to the Pentagon.

- Again, I have now been asked and answered the same question, using different language multiple times.

If anybody has another question, there's a lot of different things going on in the world.

- President Biden, Vice President Harris had a private lunch.

How awkward was that?

- I don't even understand.

Why would it be awkward?

- I would refer you to the FBI, the Secret Service.

So I'd refer you to the VA.

I would refer you to the agencies that handle flight paths.

I would refer you to the Chinese.

- I've now been asked and answered this question three times by the both of you, and I've given you my answer.

The president feels the same today as he did yesterday.

- Sorry, on my follow up on what you had just said.

- Go ahead, Philip.

Caitlyn, I'm not taking your follow up.

- I have a follow up on something you just said, though, Caroline, that's- - Caitlyn, I'm not taking your follow up.

Philip, go ahead.

I have called on you.

- [Philip] Thank you.

- Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, that's just a sample of what it's like, not just in the Trump White House, but also the Biden White House before that and the Obama White House before that.

It's the same, no matter who's in office.

Reporters on the White House beat turn up the heat with their questions.

For them, it's a game of gotcha.

But the press secretary plays a different game, call it scold and withhold, or maybe accuse and refuse.

Instead of looking for answers, it feels like everyone's just looking for a fight and a soundbite.

But who's looking out for us?

No wonder the polls show that the public either doesn't trust the press, or doesn't trust the politicians, or both.

And once you lose trust, well, good luck getting it back because from where we sit, this daily World Series, Final Four, Super Bowl of spin feels more like a game that nobody wins.

So what it's like up there, what is it like up there on the podium, speaking for the president, taking the heat, defending his decision?

Sean Spicer's been there.

He was President Trump's original press secretary, back in 2017.

Later, he wrote a bestselling book about the Trump White House and those daily battles with the White House Press Corps.

Today, he's the host of Sean Spicer's show, a popular podcast about all things political.

Sean, it's great to have you here on "Un-Spun."

- Good to see you, governor.

- Sean, first of all, I'm always curious about this in all press secretaries.

How do you prepare for a press briefing?

And do you anticipate certain questions and do you try to avoid other topics?

- Yeah, there's two different questions there.

One is, how do you prepare for a press conference and how do you prepare for a press conference about Donald Trump?

So I'll answer the latter, 'cause I think that's probably where you're going more.

Look, I used to get into the office really early.

I would read all the morning reads, you know, Political Playbook, Axios has one, whatever, you know, it was eight years ago, I can't remember, exactly which ones were in vogue at the time, 'cause I knew we've had some come on the scene since.

But I'd read all those clips from the different newspapers, their op-eds.

I would watch all the highlights from the morning news shows, the different cable programs.

And I would say that gets you about 80% of the way there.

You know the topics that are trending, the issues that are, you know, trending on social media as well.

So you get the sense of the topics.

And then I would meet with my staff at about 7:38 in the morning and kind of see if we were all on the same page, what else we were missing, where we needed follow up.

So maybe it was talking to the White House Council's office or the White House office of the legislative affairs, or particularly a policy person about getting clarity on an issue.

And then for me, what I learned, which I think is very different about Donald Trump than press secretaries in the past, is that I would probably see him five, six, seven times before I'd go out to brief and run by the issue and say, "Mr. President, they're asking about, you know, the latest on tariffs.

Here's kind of where I think the question's gonna come."

And he would literally sit there and say, "All right, Sean, you ready?

Write this down."

He'd say, "The president said," and I would write down verbatim exactly what he said, because one of the big misperceptions that I think people misunderstand about the job of a press secretary is that your job is to speak.

And you've had several, as mayor and as governor, like, I'm not there to give you my opinion.

I'm there to tell you what the president thinks, what the governor thinks, what the mayor thinks, what the congressman thinks.

And so my goal was always to have the best information about his thinking.

And sometimes people would say, "Well, I don't agree with that, or how do you like that."

It's not about me, it's not about the press secretary.

It's about the principle.

What do they think about the person, the policy, the announcement that's being made, whatever it is, because you're speaking in lieu of them.

And so it was a constant update, getting briefed by folks going in to see him, reviewing fact sheets and announcements, making sure that I had the latest information at all times.

- Now did you read your notes while doing it, or did you try to memorize it?

'Cause I remember during the Biden White House that two major press secretaries that he had, they would turn to a big book and basically read the response to stay within their narrow parameters.

I'm sure they couldn't expand.

Were you tempted sometimes to expand, or did you have to tell yourself, "Shut up, I've given my answer."

- There were a couple times where I stepped in it because I did go too far, because I thought there were issues that I knew and that I had spoken to the folks and I should have kept it tighter.

And as I said, there were plenty of times when the president would say, "All right, write this down.

If this question comes up, here's exactly what I want you to say."

I watched Caroline, I was over, attending one of her briefings, and she said, "Okay, I just spoke to the president.

Here's what he said."

So depending on the issue, you know, if he had a direct quote that he wanted relayed, I would write it down.

And sometimes it was a piece of paper.

I did have, you know, several notes that I went out with.

It was not Jen Psaki or Karin Jean-Pierre's binder.

But I also think that goes back to what I was saying.

I used to tell reporters all the time, you should ask either one of them, when the last time they spoke to Biden was.

Part of the reason they think they had that binder is because they didn't have the access to Biden to understand the issue.

They had to have notes that the staff prepared about issues.

President Trump was very clear, and he still is today about what he thinks on any particular issue.

And so for me, he'd say, "This is exactly what I want you to say."

It made my job a heck of a lot easier.

Or sometimes he'd tweet it and I'd read the tweet out and say, "Well, as he tweeted this morning, one, two, three, four."

But it depended on the issue, to be honest with you.

And as we grew, and for us, it was a growing pain.

Understand, there's a big difference speaking on a campaign than there is for the White House when you're speaking for the President of the United States, the leader of the free world on matters of policy that impact a lot more people than, you know, when you're on a campaign and you're talking about, you know, "How much are you spending or where's your next stop?"

That's a little different.

- Sean, what about the controversy right now at the White House about selecting which reporters to ask the questions?

When you went into the briefings, did you know what reporters you were going to ignore and what reporters you were gonna select?

Versus today's White House, which maybe is a little different.

Tell me the controversy between reporters and the press secretary.

- Yeah, so let's just lay the context.

The briefing room has 49 seats, seven rows across, seven back.

And those seats are currently assigned by the White House Correspondence Association.

It's a whole, long story how that happened, I think, and I encourage the White House, I've told Caroline, and I'll say it here again today, "I think they should go to an open seating process."

This is a government room.

The idea that A, B, C, and AP and NBC get reserved seats, every day while independent media has to fight for wall space is insane.

So the way it works is, you know, and so each of these outlets rotates reporters.

So CNN, NBC, Washington Post, they might have five people covering the White House.

So you don't necessarily even know which one of them is gonna show on any given day.

So you always can choose who you call on.

Now here's a quick background story.

When I took the job, the White House correspondence says, met with me and said, "You're supposed to call.

You're supposed to start every briefing by calling on the Associated Press and then going down the front row."

That's the wire services, AP Reuters, the Washington Post, The New York Times, ABC, NBC.

I said, "I'm sorry, it's not your briefing.

You don't tell me who I can call on."

That's insane.

So I started calling on the back of the room moving forward.

I called on the New York Post, I called on Univision, I called on regional press from all over the country.

I brought in, you know, outlets from Skype, from around the country.

But they shouldn't have a monopoly on what you read, see, and here, and I think Caroline's done a good job of making reforms.

- So in the remaining two minutes.

- The Constitution governor gives the freedom of press.

It doesn't mean that they get the first in every question.

And I think that's the big difference.

There's a sense of entitlement to many of these reporters.

- There's a Supreme Court, right now, they're talking about the AP Reporter being removed or not being part of the group.

What's your immediate opinion on that in the remaining minute here on how you deal with the AP and it actually being taken to the Supreme Court?

- Yeah, so I think that's great.

I talked to the president briefly about this yesterday.

I think, look, the AP has a press pass.

They can cover the White House.

That's protected speech.

By the way, when Biden was press secretary, they took away 440 press passes from individual journalists.

And the White House Correspondence Association said absolutely zero, nada, nothing.

What the difference is here is that the president has a right, in my opinion, who gets to come into his office, and the AP can cover the White House.

They have a press pass, they can go to the briefings, they can ask questions.

They have the same access, but they don't get to decide when they get to go to the Oval Office or fly in Air Force One.

And so, I think the president is well within his right to decide who gets to go on the plane, who gets to travel with him, who comes into his private office.

The AP has every right to be there.

They have a press pass, which is more than the Biden White House gave a lot of media outlets.

So I think that they're making a false argument.

I think the president is well within his rights to decide who goes into, you know, his office.

And so, I'm excited that they are standing up for what is right and expanding access.

They're making the pool bigger.

They're bringing in more voices.

The AP wants to control what you read, see, and hear every day to a very liberal bent.

And I disagree with that.

And I'm glad that the White House is standing up.

- All right, Sean, behind the scenes, I've gotta ask one final question.

What was the toughest feedback you got from the president after a press conference behind the scenes that we didn't hear, that you got, the minute you walked off the podium?

- Well, I'll flip that question.

There were plenty.

One of my first briefings, he walked back and he gave me a bear hug.

So I'll answer the question now backwards.

There were a couple times where he said, "What were you thinking when you answered that question?"

And here's the thing about Donald Trump, governor.

You always know where you stand.

I have been praised by him like no one else has.

The guy, he gave me a bear hug once.

You know, and he has ripped me a new one, the likes of which I've never had before, in my life.

But you always know where you stand with that guy.

And if you've done a good job, he lets you know you've done a good job.

If you screwed up, he's not gonna sugarcoat it.

He's gonna tell you exactly how you messed up.

But, you know what, I actually kind of appreciate it because when you're doing a good job, it's heartfelt.

And it means something.

And I knew when he said it, he meant it.

And I also knew when I screwed up, that he meant that as well.

- Sean, it's great to have you on "Un-Spun."

It's been an honor.

Thank you very much.

- Thanks, governor.

Always great to see you.

- Next up, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes "Un-Spun" on the street, asking, who do you trust, the press or the politicians?

- Yeah, there's a national survey from Gallup that says only 26% of Americans have a lot of faith or trust in what they see or hear from the White House.

But when it comes to TV news, well the numbers are even lower, only 12%.

So what do you think?

(bright music) Do you trust the media?

- Depends on which media I watch.

This is the way I do it.

I watch anything that's far right to far left.

And I feel like the truth is somewhere there in between.

I watch from Fox to CNN, all of them in between, 'cause to me, somewhere there, the truth, somewhat of the truth is in the middle.

- I don't necessarily believe everything that I see when it comes to politics.

- Yeah, I agree.

I don't believe a lot of the politics.

I think they wanna create a narrative that may not necessarily be true.

They just want us to believe a certain thing.

But it's a fake narrative to me.

- Yeah, like it just doesn't seem believable sometimes.

It just seems like it's scripted.

- I try and vary my sources, if you like, and I make up my own mind.

But it does appear that a lot of the time, that there's a bit of a bias, you might say, that comes across quite a lot of the time, I think.

Yeah, just report the facts.

- Report the facts.

- And sometimes there's a bit too much of an opinion that goes with it.

- I think I found myself going more towards, instead of the news media, maybe people that I trust through podcasts more, as well as some other resources.

I do try to find sources against that and balance it as much as I can.

- Yeah, asking the public to choose between the press or the politicians they cover, well, it's kind of like asking an NC State fan to pick a winner in the Duke Carolina game.

That's a tough choice that nobody really wants to make.

Pat.

- Thanks, Jeff.

So what do you think about the issue?

Let us know by tagging PBS Charlotte.

When you post on social media about this week's show, let us know what you like and don't like about tonight's program.

(upbeat music) Tonight on our "Un-Spun" countdown, the top five ways both the media and political press secretaries turn information into spin-formation.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, location, location, location.

You know, sometimes the briefings are at the border or in the White House press room, or near the helicopter where the President, can't quite hear you.

Very interesting where the location makes a difference, both for the president, the press secretary, and for the reporters.

Number four, moving stories.

You know, the media likes to ask a question about one individual moving story in which an individual is impacted by a presidential decision.

And it really puts the president's secretary on the spot, trying to explain how something impacts one person and their family.

Number three, selective statistics.

You know, right now with the tariffs, some people are talking about the stock market, some people are talking about unemployment, some people are talking about inflation.

You pick the statistics that both spin your story and give you a connection to the voters.

Number two, name calling.

You know, if the press secretary doesn't like the question or the president doesn't like the question, the new way to hit back is, call the reporter a name.

And it puts the reporter on the defensive, back on their heels.

But sometimes the name calling actually backfires toward the press secretary or to the president.

And number one, use pictures and videos.

But this can also backfire.

Do you remember the press conference in El Salvador where the Homeland Security director, it was with all the prisoners behind her?

The problem was, she was wearing a watch worth thousands upon thousands of dollars.

It backfired.

Location and pictures and video.

Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

(dramatic music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Un-Spun," one-on-one.

- See, it's a lot easier now than when you were governor, when you've got just me across the table.

- No, it's not a bit easier.

I still think the same way Sean Spicer feels about the media.

I feel the exact same way - Towards me, right?

- Absolutely.

- I understand.

- Absolutely.

- Well let me ask you, when you were governor, you dealt with what a lot of folks would call, a hostile press corps.

How does that affect an administration?

Does it make it harder to govern?

- Well, first of all, every governor and every president thinks, they had the most hostile press corps.

The fact is, I had the most hostile press corps.

I had one AP reporter who literally disregarded rules and protocol and respect and would yell questions at me.

He got promoted after I was defeated to the national office.

But very difficult, because I'm not the type who can go call a reporter a name.

I don't have that in my personality, and maybe I should have, in hindsight, but the staff then had a lot of difficulty with one or two reporters that just wanted to come in and knock you down.

That was their goal, was to get on TV.

So that's why I have the spite for reporters, like yourself.

- I could start shouting if you wanted me to, just for old times sake, you know?

- But it gets personal, and the press secretary catches a lot of heat too.

And the press secretary's job, Sean Spicer's job, was to protect the president.

My press secretaries wanted to protect me.

And it's probably easier to protect yourself than to have someone else protect you.

- Yeah.

Here's the flip side question.

Now, in the Biden administration, the press was accused of protecting him, hiding his weaknesses.

Does that harm an administration when the press isn't testing you, day after day, you know, calling you out on things that you ought to be called out on?

- It's gonna catch up with you, sooner or later.

But in hindsight, I probably dealt with the press too much.

And sometimes I would say Trump deals with the press too much.

He enjoys it.

I'd like part of the give and take, and sometimes my staff would go, "Why don't we skip the press this week or today, and just give it a rest?"

Because you're not making friends with them.

Sometimes you think you're becoming friends with a reporter because you're showing them transparency and access.

But one lesson I learned, they'll never be your friends.

They will take advantage at times of your transparency and your access.

- So when you're working with your staff, how do you pick and choose which issues you're out front on, versus letting your press secretary or your staff handle it?

- You decide, is this one of the priorities of your administration, or will this deflect from your administration?

So if it's gonna deflect from your administration, you want someone else to speak on your behalf.

If you want the story to go away, you want someone else to speak on your behalf.

If you want it to be a long-term story, the governor or the president's out front, and believe me, it will become more than a one day, we called it, is this a 24 hour story or is this a week story, or is this gonna be a story forever.

- It's the same issue, but the optics, the vibe changes whether you're out there or whether the staff is out there, I guess.

- Well, when the me when the media hears from the governor or the president or the mayor, they know it's a big story and you'll, most likely, be headlining the news at 6:00.

And sometimes you don't want to headline the news.

If it's the press secretary, the media might move it forward.

Would you agree with that, based on your experience?

- Yeah, absolutely.

I think when a governor or a president is on camera, that kind of sends a message to not just the public, but to the media covering, you know, the politician.

This is more important than maybe a normal press conference.

This is even true during crisis.

You know, when the governor, when I had hurricanes or major storms, when I would speak, the media would cover it.

When you're emergency operations director, it didn't get much coverage.

- Now Sean Splicer talked about what's happening now with, you know, keeping the AP outta the Oval Office.

What's the risk versus the reward of singling out an organization or a particular reporter like that, that shouter you mentioned, and maybe keeping them away from events?

You know, obviously you don't wanna deal with that, but I guess there might be some pluses for that as well.

- Well, they could spin it to their reading audience, - Yeah, - Against the president and make public opinion go against you.

It might, though, strengthen the public opinion of your base and that your base will say, "It's about time they say no to the AP."

- We've seen President Trump, invite some unfriendly reporters to Mar-a-Lago or to the White House.

I saw that Bill Maher was just brought over for a couple of hours and dinner.

What does that do?

Does that change an enemy to a friend?

Does it change the way you're covered, or is that just, I mean, what's going on in the head of the governor when you got someone at the mansion, or you got the president bringing someone to the White House?

- The ego of all politicians, whether it be myself or President Trump or Biden, they think they have this persuasive power and they think it's always gonna work.

But I'm guaranteeing, it's less than 300 batting average because the reporter reports to someone else, the reporter reports to the president of the news with their producer and the producer's gonna go nail 'em.

Let's get on the front page.

And plus, Bill Maher, for example, he's risking his audience by getting too close to a politician.

So I had some media right here in Charlotte when I was mayor who would not, I'd offer them a chicken wing or something.

They'd go, "No, I can't take it."

Others would gladly take free food at any time.

- But when it's a visit to the governor's mansion of the White House, you don't say no when you're invited, do you?

- Some reporters would've said no.

Yeah, no doubt about it.

And some reporters would've taken advantage of it and then taken advantage of the politician because the politician thought, "Oh, I got him now.

They're gonna be friends for life."

No, it doesn't work that way.

- Yeah, see, we're proof of that.

We're not friends at all.

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

- Thanks, governor.

- Thank you.

(dramatic music) Well, we all know how spin helps win elections.

We see it in campaign commercials, stump speeches, and candidate debates, right up until the final votes are counted.

But months after election day, Republicans in Raleigh are still spinning in the race for North Carolina Supreme Court.

It's the only election in the country that still hasn't been decided.

Democrat Allison Riggs beat Republican Jefferson Griffin by 735 votes.

But Griffin is suing to have thousands of ballots, mostly for military families stationed overseas, tossed out.

Those are the facts.

Now, here's the spin.

Republicans say those votes for Supreme Court don't count because overseas military voters didn't show ID.

In fact, the state never even asked them for ID.

But the rules in this election were the same as in previous elections, approved by both Republicans and Democrats.

And except for Jefferson, not one other candidate in either party, winner or loser, this year or previous years, has asked for those oversee military votes not to be counted.

Look, I'm a Republican.

I supported Jefferson for Supreme Court.

I wanted him to win.

But spinning your way into a Supreme Court seat isn't the way to do it.

If you change the rules in this election after the election is over, then every election could be in doubt in the future.

So here's my spin on North Carolina's election for the Supreme Court.

If those same overseas military votes counted for president and congress and governor and legislators, and county commissioners, and all the other judges who were elected, then why shouldn't they count for the Supreme Court race?

Sorry, fellow Republicans.

You can't spin your way out of this one.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week, as we tell you what politicians are thinking, but not saying, right here on "Un-Spun."

Goodnight, folks.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.