From WXXI news I'm Noelle Evans sitting in for Evan Dawson.

And this is connections.

This hour we're getting serious about play.

Many of us think of play as something for kids.

But today we're going to take a closer look with the people who study and practice it.

Those people say play isn't just for fun.

It's powerful.

It can heal, connect, teach, and shape us as humans.

One of my guests this hour is Scott Eberly.

He is the former vice president of the Strong National Museum of Play, and past editor of the American Journal of Play, and author of countless articles and columns about play and history and psychology in a piece called The Elements of Play.

Scott strikes out to come up with a definition, writing that quote play is a roomy subject, broad and human experience, rich and various over time and place, and accommodating pursuits as diverse as peekaboo and party banter, sandlot baseball and contract bridge, scuba diving and Scrabble.

He writes about six basic elements of play anticipation, surprise, pleasure, understanding, strength, and poise.

And he goes on, quote.

Once we observe an activity that is purposeless, voluntary, outside the ordinary, fun and defined by rules, we arrive at the moment of truth.

Scott joins me in studio today.

Scott, welcome to the program.

Thank you.

Also in studio with us is Doctor Stephen Dimanche, a licensed mental health counselor and registered play therapist supervisor, in 2008.

He founded the Nazareth University's Play Therapy Center, and he serves as the chair of the Creative Arts Therapy department at Nazareth University.

Steve, thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

And finally, Keith Gomez is the co-owner of Focus Theater in Rochester, an improv coach who has been part of the Rochester improv community for over a decade and a semi-regular guest on connections.

Thanks for being here, Keith.

It's great to be here.

So I want to start by defining play if we can.

I was looking at the Merriam-Webster dictionary entry for play last night and I got lost.

It was kind of endless.

I know some scientists consider play as a biological drive.

Humans play.

So do animals.

So for each of you, what does play mean for you in the context of your work?

And I'm going to throw it to you, Scott.

Well, you asked the $64,000 question here play is I will take that money.

Okay.

Yeah.

You got it.

it is hard to say what it is.

It may be easy to say what it isn't.

we know, play when we see it, but, you know, if play can include mountain climbing and shuffleboard, let's say.

And, and, quilting and wrestling, you're entitled to ask what is play anyway?

if, if anything, you know, for, for me, play is always something that, fun and rewarding, because if it isn't fun, it doesn't play.

That's a good way to see what something isn't.

if when you say rewarding, you also mean, like, internally rewarding, right?

Because I'm not, like, winning a prize for being the most playful person necessarily in a given moment, right?

Yes.

Unless you go on Dancing With the Stars or something like that, which they've called me up lately.

But, you're right, it's internally rewarding.

It's also socially rewarding.

it's, rewarding physically and mentally.

it's, it's, rewarding.

because it's challenging.

place tends toward the.

Excuse me, tends toward the.

Excellent.

Steve, I know your work largely focuses on play as a tool.

Therapeutic tool.

can you tell me about how you define play?

Yeah.

So we often talk about play being the child's language and toys.

Are there words.

So in the work that I do and doing play therapy, play is really that vehicle for expression.

If you want to learn about a child's world, watching them play right.

If you want to know what's happening, watch them play.

We often as adults, especially in mental health, I think we become or want to become the experts.

Right?

A child needs to accomplish this, this, this.

But if you watch a child play, they will show you what hurts.

They will show you what's on their mind.

And that's a real important piece.

Now the other thing I think, sorry, when you say they, they will show you what hurts.

What do you mean?

challenges a child that may be bullied will show you that a child who feels less competent will show you that, a child who's been traumatized will show you that trauma through play.

Through play.

can you just give me an example?

Sure.

Yeah.

one of the therapeutic values of play is competence, right?

So kids can become competent in play.

And so when a child doesn't feel very good about themselves.

So they might come into the playroom and engage you in a game, right?

Tossing a ball back and forth.

But they may make it so impossible for you to win.

And what is that child saying?

I don't feel great about myself, so I'm going to show you what it feels like.

Kids will always get you to feel what they feel in play, right?

So in that mental health work, that's really important.

Now I woke up at 448 this morning and I had a flat, and I said, why is play therapeutic?

And I thought for a minute what the therapeutic value of play for adults.

Right.

The therapeutic value of a child's play for adults is patience.

If you are in tune with a child, you are part of their world.

You're watching them, engaging with them in play.

You will really learn patience because kids unfold as they need to.

Right?

And then just to add to Scott's point, I think play is developmentally, developmentally enriching, right?

So, kids can learn, locus of control competence.

They can learn decision making, right?

They can learn all those things if we let them do it.

I will say just as you're talking about, you know, the benefits of play from a therapeutic standpoint, working with kids.

in a previous lifetime before I became a journalist, I was working as an afterschool coordinator.

And I just I feel you on that.

and there is also something it's reciprocal to, and sort of establishing those, those connections, those relationships and that sharing of like imagination and discovery to the work that I do is, is much about play as it is about relationships.

I say to students, the play is curative, but the relationship within that time is also curative.

Keith, what about you?

how do you define play particularly in the context of improv?

Oh, mine is so much more clear cut.

Let's hear it.

Oh my gosh.

Play is when they are up on the stage.

Okay.

And they are getting to participate in things.

And it's definitely not when I am giving them notes on what they just did.

Okay.

Can you talk a bit for folks that enter an improv class for maybe the first time and they might not consider themselves playful?

Like, what are some of the things that you notice, that I guess stand out to you in terms of like that moment of if there's a spark or something where you see, like play is activated, maybe.

Or is it just like a to get there?

I know, if I'm cutting them off before they get to it, I'm doing my job wrong.

Okay.

But, for most people, it will happen in inside of, like, the first hour.

And we've got all sorts of methods of easing people into it.

Everyone's very intimidated by trying to perform improv.

They feel like they need their first outing to be wildly impressive, and we start them off with simple, just noise games, passing energy around, practicing saying yes to each other in an environment where they don't even realize they're doing that before they're ever making any sort of serious decision about what they're going to be in a scene or anything like that.

It sounds like something where you have to be outside of your head, connecting with other people.

Yeah, we get them outside of their own, like time and space, and it's just like loose.

And they get comfortable with the group and then you start moving them towards more and more intense things.

But we always start off really easy with like zip, zap.

Zap is like the iconic improv warm up and it's just eye contact saying zip.

And then the next person needs to say zap and send it somewhere else, and then a zap, and then you reset and you start doing that and you're already making agreement.

You're sending energy around, you're already playing, and you haven't done anything intimidating at all.

Just a quick question.

How long have you been doing improv for.

I started in high school.

Okay.

Did you.

I mean obviously like as you grow up, you know, you change and everything, but have you noticed a difference since you started improv and how you relate to other people?

Maybe.

Oh, absolutely.

And like, I think some of my most, developmental times, especially in college, was hanging out with other improvisers because they're very empathetic people.

And they really helped me grow outside of myself, become more mature, become more accepting to other groups.

but yeah, it's it's a pretty amazing means for personal growth, empathy.

You have to practice learning.

Even with just zap, zap, zap, you need to be listening for when it which phrase in the set of three is actually coming at you.

So you can send the next one back.

So you practice active learning even with just the very first exercise we teach you.

Yeah I mean it seems like play is beneficial for I mean child development but also cognitive functioning and things like that.

If you're just tuning in I'm Noelle Evans filling in for Evan Dawson today on connections.

We're talking about the benefits of play.

And I'm here with Scott Beverly.

He is the former vice president of the Strong National Museum of Play and past editor of the American Journal of Play.

And with us is also Doctor Steven Demchak, a licensed mental health counselor, founder of Nazareth University's Play Therapy Center.

And he serves as the chair of the Creative Arts Therapy department at Nazareth University.

We're also joined by Keith Gomez, improv coach and co-owner of Focus Theater in Rochester, New York.

I am also wondering what maybe, Scott, you might know, what are some of the most compelling scientific or psychological arguments for why play matters?

Well, let me say there are two parts to that.

you know, Steve points out, play itself is therapy.

play is therapy for the board.

because it's always filled with, surprises.

You know, it's it's it's therapy for the fearful because, you know, play depends on trust and, and, and reinforcement.

you know, place therapy for the lonely.

because it recruits, playmates, and so on.

Just about everything you can say about, play, tends toward, the therapeutic.

And, and the reason that play has lasted so long.

And let me just say one thing about that in a second, but, because play can be risky.

right.

not just, not just the kind of play we hear where we put our opinions out there for thousands to listen to.

But.

But over the long haul in evolution, if you, engage in play, it's risky.

You might be injured.

it might kill you.

and you might say, wait a minute.

Give me an example.

Well, let's say you climb a tree.

and you're the best.

early human, tree climber we're talking about back in the day.

Back in the day?

Yes.

Before a week.

Before last.

And the limb breaks.

you know, and you go down.

You don't pass along, your genes.

So there's a reason why play survived, over the long haul and by long haul.

And this is what I was getting to.

the, one of, Steve's, colleagues, a neuroscientist named York.

CEP, discovered that rats, laugh.

My goodness.

we aren't the only ones who laugh.

In fact, it's not just rats, but dogs laugh, chimps laugh.

Mammals?

lots of mammals.

Hyenas.

Famously.

Famously.

Yes.

I'm glad you mentioned that.

The laughing hyena.

And, so we share this, we don't have a monopoly on.

We do not have a monopoly on play.

And it's nothing new, because the last time we shared a common ancestor with a rat was about 80 million years ago.

So play goes back, a long way, and it's deep in in who we are.

you know, it eases our social connections.

It makes us happier.

It relieves stress and so on.

So, yes, it survived over the long haul.

Steve what about for you.

Are there other compelling scientific or psychological arguments for why play matters.

Yeah.

one of the things that, Shafer Andrews talks about are these therapeutic.

So who's that?

Shafer.

Andrews.

So Charles Shafer was kind of the grandfather of play therapy.

So he was one of.

Oh, with Gary Landreth, one of the original, two people that started the Association for Play Therapy, accomplished author.

He's past now and then.

Athena Drews is another accomplished author, lives down in Poughkeepsie area, I think, down there.

And she's a, accomplished play therapist in her own right.

And they have they they wrote many things on the therapeutic values of play.

And so from a therapist perspective, one of the things that I share with students is that for stakeholders, caregivers, teachers, administrators, right, community members, one could say, you're going to take my child and play with them, right?

I could do that at home.

What's the value of that?

I need you to fix so-and-so, right?

But you have to be good at explaining why play is therapeutic.

What is it?

It's not just being a play made.

It's not bringing a kid in the room.

Just to play with them.

But we have to, as play therapists, rely on those therapeutic values of play.

So what are those values?

And so there's there's 30 of them, which I, I'm all okay.

Well but I mentioned earlier kids build this sense of competence in play right.

The easiest way to enter a child's world and build a relationship is through play.

Right.

there is a catharsis, right?

Is the expression of powerful emotions.

So when a kid comes into the playroom and I have a bob bag, which is a bag full of air sand at the bottom, but kind of like a weeble wobble, you can hit it and it goes down and comes up, but that sometimes could be a bad guy.

Sometimes it could be a good guy.

Sometimes kids can beat it up.

But the how they imagine this, how they imagine it, right?

So then a child who has freedom to play in the way that they would like, can use that to get anger out or express those powerful emotions.

So there's a lot of therapeutic values in play.

We just have to understand them and then be able to communicate them to stakeholders.

Sure.

I mean, it seems like a container you're about to say something about.

I was just going to say we used to we used to call that toy Joe Palca.

You could knock him over.

He'd come right back up again.

Exactly.

There was a putty and I was a Power Ranger.

Yeah.

That's a that's what that was.

I love that and I like the idea to like exploring how a play is a sort of container for these bigger emotions.

Like, there are times I'm playing a board game and I'm frustrated, and then afterwards, like, it was maybe not fun in the moment, but, you know, it feels fine after, you know, and I would want to play that game again and maybe hopefully win.

Sure.

if you are just tuning in, I'm Noelle Evans.

I'm sitting in for Evan Dawson.

We are talking about the benefits of play right now.

If you would like to join the conversation, you can call 844295825 5 or 5 852639994.

You can also email us at connections at cyborg.

You can also comment on YouTube.

We are going to take a short break.

It's the only break of the hour, but when we come back, we're going to pick up this conversation where we left off.

I'm Megan Mack.

Thursday on the next Connections Rochester Real Beer Expo is going through some changes.

Its focus is now on New York breweries.

The industry has seen some turbulence.

So how are local breweries keeping the taps flowing?

Guest host Gina Fanelli discusses it with his guests.

Then Rochester Mayor Malik Evans on the state of the city address.

Talk to you Thursday.

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This is connections.

I'm Noelle Evans sitting in for Evan Dawson.

We're talking about the benefits of play.

I'm here with Scott Eberly.

He is the former vice president of the Strong National Museum of Play that is right here in Rochester.

And the past editor of the American Journal of Play, which I believe is also published right here in Rochester.

I'm also here with Doctor Stephen Demjanjuk, a licensed mental health counselor and registered play therapist supervisor.

He is the founder of Nazareth University's Play Therapy Center, and he serves as the chair of the Creative Arts Therapy department at Nazareth University.

And I'm also joined by Keith Gomez, improv coach and co-owner of Focus Theater in Rochester, New York.

I want to turn now to thinking about play as practice, but first I'd like to talk about what the harms may be of not playing.

Steve, if you want to take that.

so one of the things that we see with the delta fied kids, kids who delta Delta fied.

So, let's say let's say you had parents who were separated or divorced and a child was in the middle and felt that it was their role to take care of everybody.

Okay.

A child could become adult ified, right?

Being very serious, taking care of people.

And so when a child like that may come into the playroom, there may be a resistance to play.

There may be, a need to be very structured, clean up everything, take care of the therapist or the playroom.

So, you know, with that, I think, then becomes, emerges a rigidity.

Right.

And so a child may be acting older than they are having a rigidity, maybe being inflexible.

So then in the play therapy process, as they explore, as they play, they can shed some of that.

Right.

And so then I think it's a return to childhood.

I think it's a decrease in anxiety.

And so those are you know, that's one of the harms for not playing or feeling adult to fight in some way.

For children like that I'm thinking, you know, long term you do become an adult at some point hopefully.

that what are some of the effects that you know, that lack of play as a, as a child might lead to as an adult.

Like is there any anything to point to there of you know, I had a graduate student many, many years ago would say to me, in a play therapy class, because I say you have to connect.

And probably very similar to, to improv, you have to connect with your playful spirit.

Right.

In order at any age, at any age.

Right.

And especially as a play therapist, you have to connect to your playful spirit.

And a graduate student said to me, wow, you know, I don't even know how to play.

Mean, like, I've been so serious for so long, I don't even know how to play.

But when they touch that playful spirit right when they start to kind of buy into it, accept it.

Yeah, there's a loosening of the personality, a decreasing anxiety of flexibility.

I mean, I think that's, that's a major thing that I see.

Scott first then Keith go ahead.

you know the sort of garden variety, of people who suffer from play deprivation.

You know, it's easy to list people who are humorless.

which is which is a hard thing to overcome.

but, you know, the sliding scale goes up to fragility and a sense of victim victimization.

the worst, outcome that I've ever heard was, a terrible story about, Romanian, orphans, who were kept in their cribs.

You know the story, Steve?

for, for, years upon, years.

Not really given any, nurture and not able to play with either of their caregivers, such that they were or each other.

And, these kids, when they grew up, were very severely affected.

a lot of them entered the secret police, and, they, they, scored low on every, every measure you can think of for, normal human interaction.

Keith, what were you going to do?

I don't want to follow that.

I want to follow the unplayed with children.

I'm just going to make a joke that your student that didn't know how to play probably grew up with only monopoly in their house.

Oh, goodness.

No one wants to play that, right?

I want to turn to Scott for a moment.

In your experience studying the history of play.

Have you found examples of adults using play in profound or even transformative ways?

yes.

Of course.

nothing stays the same.

over time, what we think of as play, has changed profoundly.

over time, what amused us changed, over time.

Profoundly.

people in the Elizabethan age who went to see bear baiting.

you know, where dogs would would tear bears apart.

My goodness.

Yes.

but they thought it was funny.

I don't feel that way.

No no no no no.

I mean, you know, cockfighting, other.

But sports do persist, but they're very, but they're outré now for it.

They're not.

They're not mainstream.

They're often illegal.

as a matter of fact, I think that one thing that you, that you notice, in Western civilization is, you know, the progressive, you know, liberation of people, sense of humor.

Interesting.

Steve, how could adults borrow ideas from play therapy?

I know you talk so much about, you know, the benefits of play therapy for children.

but for adults, I mean, in terms of, like, imaginative thinking, sensory engagement.

are there ways that adults can use, you know, elements of play therapy to benefit their own well-being?

Yeah.

So, some therapists who work with adults or play therapists who work with teens, right.

Or adults, can make use of sand trees.

Right.

So a sand tree is essentially a wooden box kind of filled with sand, and you use little miniatures, right.

So, miniature people, trees, caves, houses.

and so you would ask somebody to build the world in the sand.

And so that's kind of like a project of, technique where people will build the world in the sand.

That often happens in, in, therapy.

Another I think more important idea is called filial therapy.

So filial therapy is taking the foundation, the techniques of child centered play therapy and teaching it to parents and and teaching it to parents to say, you can do this at home, right?

And what comes to that is increased empathy.

Better relationships between parents and child.

limit setting strategies.

Also, those developmental capabilities of you have a child who you want to give opportunities to right to make choices.

But they're kids.

So as adults we have to make a lot of choices.

But for that 30 minutes or 45 minutes a week, the child can be in charge.

That that is pretty empowering for kids.

Sure.

Right.

Yeah.

There's some element to this, too.

you mentioned about, you know, using sand and things like that where I've noticed, you know, just in observing since I've developed this interest in play in a, in a larger sense of just how there is an expression of, like, interacting with your environment.

you know, sort of rather than bending to your environment, like work, like a producer.

Veronica has mentioned to me before, also play being instead, you know, bending the environment to you.

I remember just throwing this out there, just remembering at, the Jazz Fest last year to seeing, a little girl holding her mom's hand, and she was playing with the double yellow line on East Avenue because the street was closed off.

And just like noticing that where, you know, and other like outside of that setting for that wouldn't necessarily be the safest place to be.

but also just sort of seeing this natural tendency towards interacting with the environment in a, in a different way.

And I've thought about play over time as sort of like living for the sake of living.

and it seems like such a pure expression of just like life itself and, I don't know, thinking back to like eclipse day of just like, really thinking about how we are so fortunate to be on a life sustaining planet for the moment.

but then also, as I continue on this tangent, like we had just heard from NPR about, you know, this really devastating news about coral reefs and like the hottest year on record last year.

And yet here we are talking about play and, you know, suggesting that maybe it could be prioritized.

But in this greater context, is it even appropriate to consider including play in our daily lives?

I mean, one of the things that came up was, you know, interrupting stress cycles, you know, oh, no, go ahead, go ahead.

Joy is how you fight back.

That's it.

You'd say more letting all the bad news bury you and staying in your house.

Being depressed is letting the world and all the evil elements win.

Getting out, finding your friends, playing.

That's how you fight back.

Though also we were as Scott mentioned, there are different ideas of what constitutes play and some of the examples you gave really sort of really dark stuff honestly.

you know, really almost there's a sense of like wanting to overpower something maybe, and just to think instead of, you know, some of these other forms of play that are sort of rejuvenating.

And I'm wondering, Steve, you know, in terms of, you know, children are growing up in a very different world at the moment.

just how do you approach it in terms?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So our playroom, the the work that I do in our playroom doesn't include things that turn on.

Right?

No electronics.

We don't use board games.

We don't use highly structured things.

We borrow from improv that improv idea.

And we have toys that, are fantasy, pretend focused.

Right?

we have aggressive toys, regressive toys, real life.

What's an aggressive toy?

Good question.

one of the most popular ones is, handcuffs.

So we have little toy handcuffs.

Pretend handcuffs.

Okay.

So I often will get handcuffed.

Right?

So a kid can experiment with being in control.

Makes me the bad guy.

Puts me in handcuffs, puts me in jail.

I've had that happen to me before at the climbing gym.

I actually had had my hands up because I was stretching, and, a child came up and was like, you're a superhero.

You're going in jail like no superheroes allowed here.

And I was like, I didn't expect that.

But the superheroes were getting arrested, not the super villains, right?

You got all that work on that kid?

Yeah.

So.

So that's an example.

we have little Nerf guns that can be an example of, aggressive toy or a, we have rubber dragons with big teeth.

Right?

That can be an aggressive toy.

anything aggressive toy is really about ways for children to express power and control.

Why does that matter?

Power and control for.

For a child to express that?

Yeah.

Why does that matter?

Well, theoretically, the idea is right.

So based on Carl Rogers work, who was a humanistic psychotherapist based on his work, he said that everybody has an ability to self-actualize be better than you were today, right?

To grow in a positive direction.

If we have core conditions, empathy, genuineness, unconditional positive regard.

I say to my kids, if you or to my students, if you look at a driveway and there's a crack in the driveway and you see a weed growing out of it, right?

Even that weed will find what it needs to grow, right?

Even in an asphalt driveway.

Okay.

So the idea of self-actualize Asian people moving forward, people growing in positive directions.

So in a playroom, the idea is if we create the right conditions, empathy, genuineness, unconditional positive regard, that kids will try new ways of being.

So a child, to answer your question who feels a lack of power can play very powerfully.

Right.

Be a superhero.

Be a supervillain.

Put you in jail and experience being powerful.

Right.

And then they may retreat a little bit.

But now they have the opportunity to try on a new way of being.

All right then I'll come back to a place of safety then be a little bit more powerful, then come back to a place of safety.

So it's very important for some kids.

Some kids maybe not so much, but all kids play in that aggressive way.

It's not.

Sometimes adults think of it as very scary, but it doesn't have to be.

It's kids are developmentally looking for control and power and right self-direction and independence.

Yeah.

I mean, they are I mean, some would say like arguably the most vulnerable population.

You know, they're dependent on others, you know.

so yeah, I feel you there.

Scott, I'm wondering, going back to the elements of play, if since you wrote that article like listing those elements, if you might have changed your mind on anything or if.

Yeah, you know, actually, I keep discovering, things that reinforce it, especially when I play with my grandsons, who are always waiting for what's next?

you know, and they're looking for surprises.

tickling is a good example of it.

You know, you can't tickle yourself.

At least I don't think you can.

And.

But when somebody tickles you with consent.

With consent, of course.

Yeah.

and then they say, well, my other grandson, I'll tickle him until he's been taught to say mercy.

Mercy?

He'll yell.

Okay.

cackling.

okay.

you know, kids will learn to, handicap, in play to self handicap, especially when there's a mixed, age group of of children.

And it kept saying kind of like a timeout.

Timeout.

That's right.

And, and, what are the rules again?

Yeah.

They provide for somebody.

Be smaller.

Not as fast, not as strong.

not as conversant with the rules, etc.. so, so play proceeds from, this, novelty, you know, what's next?

What will happen next, which is pleasurable to, to the surprise, which is also pleasurable if you're being, tickled and pleasure anchors the play, experience.

You might learn from it, might understand more about yourself or your or your society.

you might grow stronger mentally or physically.

and you might learn how to balance, better.

I called it poise for, lack of a better term.

but that's the happy outcome.

The happiest outcome?

Sure.

If you're just tuning in, I'm Noelle Evans.

I'm filling in for Evan Dawson.

And today on connections, we're talking about the benefits of play.

And I'm here with Scott Eberly.

He is the former vice president of the Strong National Museum of Play and past editor of the American Journal of Play.

And I'm also with Doctor Stephen de magic, a licensed mental health counselor, founder of Nazareth University's Play Therapy Center, and he serves as the chair of the Creative Arts Therapy department at Nazareth University.

And we are also joined by Keith Gomez, improv coach and co-founder of Focus Theater in Rochester, New York.

If you want to join the conversation, you can give us a call at 844295825 5 or 5 852639994.

You can also email us at connections at cyborg.

You can also comment on YouTube.

we are getting a bit serious about play, right?

We're right.

Furrowed brows and all of that.

I'm wondering too, in terms of that expression.

Just going back to you, Steve, for a moment.

are there certain things that you start with in a play therapy session?

For instance.

Yeah.

We say to kids when they walk in the door it's very common.

This is called a welcoming statement.

So we might say a little Johnny this is a special place in here.

You can say anything you want to say and you can do almost anything you want to do.

And when there comes to something you can't do, I'll let you know.

And we give their child an opening statement, this welcoming statement.

And then the child is free to choose what to play with.

So we create at the beginning, create the opportunity or this environment in which they are free to share.

They are free to play.

They're free to make choices.

Not all choices.

Right?

So if they wanted to take my glasses off, that would be a limit.

And then children have the opportunity to choose.

And is it also that these are children who have experienced trauma.

Is that how they end up sometimes.

in our clinic on campus we're really trying to focus on kids who've experienced trauma.

But it also could be a child with anxiety or anger issues or family transitions.

That may could be a lot of different reasons.

I also wonder about play, as possibly.

I don't know if this is going too far, but as a way to prevent violence, maybe, if anybody's had thoughts on that before.

but as we marinate on that, Keith, I would like to ask you about improv.

Seems to be play in its purest form.

It kind of ticks all the boxes of those elements of play.

Unscripted in the moment.

Collaborative.

What would you say that improv could teach us about being more playful in everyday life?

Whatever you're hoping to get out of it.

it's got a little bit of everything.

that Steve was talking about, the sandbox.

We have that element, but we don't even have the toys or the sand.

we often, there's a show format that we use where you paint a scene, you pick a location, and each person takes a turn.

Putting an object in that space.

And then you perform inside of that space and you kind of try and get everything out of it that you can.

So you have the elements of build it literally building something together kind of create your castle, if that was the suggestion or what have you.

And then everyone kind of takes turns and they're like, well, there's a king in the castle, there's a queen in the castle, there's the jester, and we get to see how all of them play in that space before we're like, okay, we're done with this location, just the location we've gotten everything out of it.

We can.

And now we're going to move on to the next thing.

So it's a lot of yes and.

Right.

Absolutely.

Even rule number one is even what Steve just said about when it's when one of the children walk into the room and he says, welcome to this special place where you can do everything.

He's saying yes to that kid's imagination.

As soon as they walk through the door.

and they can do anything.

You are here to play.

Yes.

And you can do anything.

And you kind of hold back on the the rules.

The note.

Don't touch my glasses.

But yeah, there there's always safety nuts in improv too.

There are limits, sure, but it is always that level of agreement is so necessary for even getting the ball rolling.

Brilliant.

We have a caller, Maggie, from Rochester.

you're on air.

I hear you want to talk a bit about adult play.

It doesn't have to be divorced from reality.

Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah.

So this conversation has reminded me a lot about different conversations.

I've heard about sort of the epidemic of, like, adult loneliness.

And I was really struck by something that you said where you were like, does it feel indulgent to even think about play as an adult, because there's so many pressing and important issues that require our work?

And what I'll say is that nothing is work with the right crowd, or very little work with the right crowd.

Like, I think that part of how we, integrate joy into our lives as adults is, first of all, by finding people that we feel joyful with and then doing fulfilling things with the people that we care about.

Right.

So, like, I don't think that those things necessarily have to be divorced.

Some of the most, fun, joyful times that I've ever had with the people that I care about have been in the direct service of projects that made our community better, you know, protests, even meetings about protests, like activists always joke like, you know, you go to a meeting about a meeting, but they can be really joyful if you have built genuine community with the people that are there with you.

And so I think keeping in mind as adults that like seeking connection is the first element, both of finding that joy as an adult and of doing the community work that we're all so desperately trying to find avenues to do, especially in this sort of political moment.

Does that make sense?

It does.

Maggie, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts there.

that aspect of community, I want to throw this to Keith, if you don't mind sharing, because it seems exactly to that point.

Like if I'm trying to build connections with folks around me, even in the newsroom, if we go bowling, for instance, like there is certain I mean, like there's team building exercises, sure.

But there are certain ways that we can connect through play.

And I imagine improv especially, that kind of that shared humanity might come out more, am I?

Oh, absolutely.

We think of the the Focus theater as more of a community space than as an actual like theater.

it is it's far too collaborative.

We need everyone coming in and helping out with whether it's, performances, production, like so you've got, like, layers of that between I just want to show up and do my class, and I get to meet people doing that class.

I just want to show up and do, like, the jam and just kind of like once a month I'll come out and play.

And then there's like the deeply embedded people that are truly a part of the community and really help make things go, That community element, though, does latch on so fast, and it's just it's the nature of what improv is saying yes to each other, treating each other with humanity, getting to create things, being vulnerable.

doing all this work behind the scenes, classes are eight weeks, two hours a session.

So 16 hours you spend with this group of people, after they finish their level one, they always want to stick together.

They all fall in love with each other.

They adore each other.

We have huge, differences in age, gender, like, all sorts of, like, mixed match.

But you all learn to play coherently together and people get addicted to that and they want it becomes a little family.

They all want to hang out.

we have another caller.

Chris.

I hear you want to talk about a famous psychologist's view of play.

Is that right?

You know, his name is Gregor Martin.

I think he's quite well known.

He has a lot of stuff on YouTube.

He makes the point that he really regrets that he.

When he became so obsessed with his career as a young man, he lost the capacity to get back to, Christopher Robin.

And so the maker would need to prove.

And, you know, this is this is a guy who's very, very tuned in.

And, it's funny because as a guy, I can I understand exactly what he's saying, but I can feel myself being a little uncomfortable about saying that because it sounds kind of sissy or common or.

I mean, it sounds like what a what a limiting concept, though, isn't it?

I wish I could I mean, I get what he's saying, but you guys know what I'm saying, right when I say that.

Yeah, I he's nodding.

I do, being a therapist of with adults, not only kids, you know, for men, there's the boy code.

What do I mean?

So the boy.

Not a boy.

So the boy code is accomplish, right?

Accomplish things.

put your head down, work harder.

No sissy stuff.

That's that's part of the boy code, right?

I like stuff down feelings.

Yeah, stuff down feelings.

Right.

Work over family, right?

And not, I think a lot of men experience this because we've been socialized to do that.

Okay.

Now, I think what the caller raises an interesting issue, and one that we're kind of talking about, especially with the improv that what play does is focus on process rather than outcome in our daily life, its outcome.

What can I accomplish?

What can I do?

What can I achieve in improv and play therapy?

It's not about the outcome, it's about the process.

All these people go through a class together.

It's about the process they're having a relationship, right?

They're using a playful method to build those things, right.

I love to cook.

It's not about the outcome, it's about the process.

It's about being creative and fun and the experience I have with my wife and son.

And I think that I think when especially with men, when if we think about the outcome, not the process, I think sometimes we feel like I'm not doing anything or I'm mad, I don't know.

I'm not acting in a way in which I should.

So I think it's really interesting question, but the caller does kind of point out that it touches on that boy code that a lot of us have been socialized with.

Interesting.

kind of, I'm thinking to sports, I know playing ultimate Frisbee.

that it's come up quite a bit about addressing the mental game, because once you get to a certain level of competition and it comes down to just like inches, every time a disc is thrown or caught, or defended, that how you recover from errors or, you know, something not going your way and, you know, just seeing how much effort when it comes to addressing like the mental game is exactly about that, focusing on the process, not the outcome.

The process is is some of that is in my control the outcome not not not mostly, not at all.

and I think to the bills actually, the Buffalo Bills and just seeing over time like how they've transformed and some of that being, you know Mr. Brightside, there are certain elements of silliness that I see.

Right.

I think contributing to, you know, their growth as a team.

That's right, that's right.

It's and those are all boys.

That is a big group of services.

I mean, when I think of professional football, I think of a big group.

You know, there's probably no more regulated game than football, right?

I mean, it's time to the minute it's adjudicated.

it's replayed, etc.

but there are these moments, and Josh Allen is a really good example of it.

you know, when he leaps over a player, and that moment of, exuberance is, is really, in our minds.

It's actually in a mural in my neighborhood, where Josh has leaped, over a player.

But it's pure inspiration.

right.

He wasn't, he wasn't following the play.

he was doing what came to him in the moment.

the, something that's come up is, you know, how we're socialized to either play or not or play within certain, like, confines.

Like, for instance, as a girl, it was a totally acceptable for me to play with dolls and Barbies and, you know, for my brothers, not so much, you know, or they would be playing with action figures and they're all dolls, you know, by, by a different name, essentially.

But, I mean, that's where I learned storytelling in a way, you know, at an early age.

and, you know, for me, even when I was working in after school and I would see, you know, different children gravitate towards, you know, different toys, and you know, even cross those, sort of assumed, like, gender norms, which I don't see a problem with, a boy sitting down to have tea with a stuffed animal.

Shark like, that was wonderful.

Go ahead.

We had it.

You got this exhibit.

Once upon a time, it was called When Barbie Day, the G.I.

Joe.

Okay.

Which was, you know, why couldn't they have, dated?

Right?

I, I ran into a group who called themselves the Barbie Liberation Army.

Interesting.

Yes.

And they were mischievous.

They went into the a big box store.

they purchased, a Barbie and a G.I.

Joe.

they took them home.

They switched the voice boxes.

Okay.

Oh, interesting.

So sorry.

That sounds surprising.

Yeah.

And, so, you know, G.I.

Joe would say things like, math is hard, you know, and, and, and what doll is true is a set up to say math is hard.

Well, Barbie did once upon a time.

No, I'm not.

Okay.

And, and Barbie would make these, sort of grunting combat noises, you know?

So the point that, the Barbie Liberation Organization, the blow, was making was, about, how, how, toys are, gendered.

and, just getting there was half the fun.

It was like Moscow rules.

They had to work through an intermediary and a lawyer was hilarious.

Interesting.

Okay, I mean, the other side of it, too, if I think to, you know, the moment that recess was cut off, you know, recess was fine up until, like, fifth grade and then like, sixth grade onwards, like, you don't get recess, like, that's for kids.

and I honestly, I still would like some recess, in my life, quite frankly.

but.

Yeah, Steve, you know, are there certain sort of, I guess, when you're working with with a child in play therapy, are you considering some of, like, the outside conditions or circumstances that they're living in?

Are there certain tools that they can take with them so that even if in their life there are certain spaces where play is not allowed, that they can still, you know, benefit from some of these therapeutic tools that you've brought to them?

Yeah.

There, there are two ways to think about it.

Play as therapy and play in therapy.

The work that I do, child centered, more self-directed child choose is fantasy.

Pretend play is play as therapy, meaning the expression is therapeutic.

So a child can come in and be a good guy and bad guy and rescue somebody.

Save the day, be a victim, whatever it whatever happens.

And so the idea is that kids will play things out over and over and over again.

The more they play out, they achieve mastery, meaning they play it out until it's been expressed, and then they kind of work through it.

Then there's play in therapy, which is not so much focused on the expressive fantasy pretend play, but it's a way to make, therapeutic activities fun.

So when you're doing that play, you're doing more directive, problem solving, solution focus kinds of things that which the kid can then take a coping box, breathing strategies, those kinds of things.

Right.

Yeah.

So going back to the phrase math class is tough.

note from producer Veronica Volk, saying that it was included in a random selection of phrases that the doll could speak in Teen Talk Barbie, 1992.

That's it.

This phrase sparked criticism from educators and organizations like the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics and the American Association of University Women, as it was seen as discouraging girls from pursuing math and science careers.

Mattel, the toy company, apologized for the phrase and removed it from future versions of the doll.

We have been talking about the benefits of play this hour.

Thank you all for joining me.

Any last final thoughts?

Things you want folks to take away with?

you know, the 45 seconds we have left?

I envy my colleagues because there's no separation between work and play for them.

Fabulous.

Steve, what about you?

it's great being here.

I could I could talk about play for hours and hours, so I appreciate it.

Thank you.

I took pre-calc math is hard.

Fair enough.

You're, This is six I news connections.

I'm Noelle Evans, sitting in for Evan Dawson.

Thank you for joining us.

Tune in tomorrow for more connections here at Exciting News.

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