>>> TURNING NOW TO THE INTERNATIONAL EFFORT TO FIGHT A.I.D.S.. 20 YEARS AGO, PRESIDENT BUSH INTRODUCED ONE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FOREIGN AID PROGRAMS.

THE PLAN FOR A.I.D.S.

RELIEF HAS SAVES 25 MILLION LIVES BUT IT IS NOW UNDER THREAT, HOUSE REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSING FUNDING WHICH EXPIRES AT THE END OF THE MONTH OVER ABORTION POLITICS.

STEPHEN THRASHER IS IN HIV AND A.I.D.S.

CALLER THAT JOINS US TO DISCUSS THE GLOBAL IMPACT OF THIS RELIEF AND ITS REMOVAL.

>> THANK YOU, STEPHEN THRASHER, THANKS SO MUCH.

SOMETHING THAT IS INTERESTING THAT HAS HAD BIPARTISAN SUPPORT HAS BEEN FUNDING, FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT KNOW.

IT IS THE PRESIDENT'S EMERGENCY PLAN FOR A.I.D.S.

RELIEF THAT WAS SET UP BACK IN 2003.

FROM PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, IT HAS BEEN APPROVED AND REAPPROVED OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AUTHORIZED AND IS COMING UP FOR A REAUTHORIZATION SOON.

YET THIS TIME, IT IS FACING A LITTLE BIT MORE PARTISAN OBSTRUCTION.

WHY?

>> AS YOU SAID, THAT WAS A BIPARTISAN EFFORT THAT HAS BEEN PASSED MANY TIMES, HOUSE REPUBLICANS ARE HOLDING IT HOSTAGE RIGHT NOW.

THEY ARE NOT RENEWING THE FUNDING, THEY'RE TRYING TO USE IT AS A WAY TO SHAKEDOWN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND MAKE THEM PUT ABORTION RESTRICTIONS ON COUNTRIES THAT ARE RECEIVING THIS AID WHICH WOULD BE A DISASTER.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT EVEN THOUGH SOME VERY POWERFUL PEOPLE HAVE WEIGHED IN AND LOOTING GEORGE W. BUSH HIMSELF.

THEY ARE NOT ONLY TRYING TO GET RID OF PEPFAR FUNDING WHICH DEALS WITH U.S. FUNDING OF A.I.D.S.

ABROAD, THEY ARE TRYING TO GET RID OF $700 MILLION WORTH OF A.I.D.S.

FUNDING DOMESTICALLY WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL, THAT IS PART OF THE LARGER ATTACK.

ON LGBTQ RIGHTS, ON BODILY RIGHTS.

>> I WANT TO GET TO DOMESTIC FUNDING, WHERE THE KEY CONCERNS FROM REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS SMITH OF NEW JERSEY.

HE IS THE CHAIR OF A HOUSE PANEL THAT OVERSEES PEPFAR, HE HAS SUPPORTED ITS REAUTHORIZATION BEFORE BUT AS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS NOW INJECTED ABORTION RIGHTS INTO THE PROGRAM.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS.

>> IT PAINS ME TO SAY THIS, BUT HE'S CORRECT IN THIS INSTANCE.

WE GET FUNDING FROM TRIAZOLE ACROSS THE WORLD, UKRAINE GETS FUNDING, SOME COUNTRIES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA INCLUDING VIETNAM, A WIDE VARIETY OF COUNTRIES THAT HAVE MANY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO ABORTION.

I TEACH A CLASS CALL AMERICAN EMPIRE, HOW DO YOU ASK IS TRYING TO INFLUENCE POLICY ABROAD , HOUSE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO HAVE DISASTROUS EFFECTS.

THEY ARE NOW TRYING TO FORCE ABORTION RIGHTS OR THE DIALBACK OF ABORTION RIGHTS IN MANY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

THESE COUNTRIES AS I SAID HAD VERY DIFFERENT APPROACHES IN VERY DIFFERENT PLACES.

IF YOU ARE SUCCESSFUL, IT WOULD HAVE REALLY DISASTROUS IMPACT BECAUSE THE SAME KINDS OF ORGANIZATIONS IN THE SAME KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO DO WORK AROUND ABORTION ARE DOING THE MOST IMPORTANT WORK AROUND SDI PREVENTION AND HIV A.I.D.S.

PREVENTION, I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT GEORGE W. BUSH REALLY SIDESTEPPED AND HAVE QUOTES ABOUT THIS PROGRAM BEING PRO-LIFE, HE DID NOT WEIGH IN ON ABORTION AND OTHER WAYS, HE JUST SAID THAT IS NOT WORTH DISCUSSING IN THIS CONVERSATION.

THAT IS TRUE.

>>> THE HEAD OF PEPFAR 'S TOLD THE ASSOCIATED PRESS THAT HE KNEW OF KNOWING AND IN WHICH MONEY WAS GOING TO DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY FUND ABORTION SERVICE IS.

WHAT IS THE WORK OF THIS PROGRAM LOOKING LIKE ON THE GROUND?

>> IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WE HAVE IN COMMON, IT GET THE DRUGS INTO BODIES, WE HAVE MEDICATION THAT HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEALT WITH HIV SINCE 1995.

IN 1996, THE UNITED STATES RATE OF DEATH WENT DOWN DRAMATICALLY, WE STARTED SAVING TENS OF THOUSANDS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES BECAUSE WE HAD ACCESS TO THAT MEDICATION, NOBODY ELSE HAD ACCESS IN MUCH OF THE WORLD FOR ANOTHER SEVEN YEARS, EVEN AS A.I.D.S.

DEATHS WENT DOWN TURNING AND 96, THAT KEPT GOING ON UNTIL 2003, 2004 UP TO ABOUT 2 1/2 MILLION DEATHS A YEAR, IT WAS BECAUSE THE DRUGS ARE SIMPLY TOO EXPENSIVE FOR A POOR COUNTRY AND MANY MODERN INCOME COUNTRIES.

IT MADE THE DRUGS AVAILABLE FOR FREE IN SOME PLACES FOR MUCH LESS MONEY, WORKED WITH THE DRUG COMPANIES TO BRING THE COST DOWN.

HAD A VERY -- STRUCTURAL ISSUES AROUND A.I.D.S.

THAT MAY STILL BE ADDRESSED.

ON A CELLULAR LEVEL, IT GOT DRUGS INTO BODIES, THAT SAVE TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES.

NOBODY SHOULD BE IT WAS AS THE U.S. WAS LOOKING ABROAD, THEY REALLY NEGLECTED HIV AND A.I.D.S.

IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN AROUND PEPFAR, NOT CUT AROUND REINSTATING THE DOMESTIC FUNDING.

>> WEARS THE ABORTION FEAR COMING IN, OR ABORTION FUNDING FEAR?

>> SO MUCH WITH THE HOUSE REPUBLICANS, THIS IS JUST A BONE THEY WILL NOT LET GO OF, THEY HAVE SEEN THEY GOT AFTER MANY DECADES OF ORGANIZING, THEY HAVE GOTTEN ROVERS WEIGHED -- ROE VERSUS WADE REVEALED, IT'S NO LONGER WORKING FOR THEM.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO GET THEIR PEOPLE THAT WERE COMING OUT TO VOTE FOR THEM TO DO SO ANYMORE, THEY WON THAT FIGHT BUT IT'S NOT WORKING FOR THEM.

THEY ARE LOOKING FOR OTHER PLACES TO DO A.

THEY ALSO I THINK THIS HAS TO BE READ IN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR GENERAL ANTI-LGBTQ HATRED THAT THEY ARE WAGING UPON THE WORLD, THERE IS MUCH AS THEY CAN IN UNITED STATES.

THEY ARE LOOKING AT WAYS TO PUNISH LGBTQ PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, THIS IS ONE WAY.

HIV AND A.I.D.S.

IS NOT ONLY A FACT IN GAY ENTRANCE PEOPLE, THEIR COUNTRIES INCLUDING SOME OF THOSE WHO RECEIVE MONEY TRANSFER FOR THE MAJORITY OF CASES HAPPEN THROUGH INJECTION DRUG USE OR VERTICAL TRANCE MISSION FROM PARENT TO CHILD, DURING PREGNANCY.

IT IS A VIRUS AND A DISEASE THAT AFFECTS LGBTQ PEOPLE DISPROPORTIONATELY.

THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN EXPORTING MANY LGBTQ -- ANTI-LGBTQ LOSS OF HER U.S. MISSIONARY WORK, POLICIES, SO I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER PART OF IT.

THAT'S PART OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND THE A.I.D.S.

COMPONENT.

>> SOME OF THE MOST RECENT ROUNDS OF CRITIQUES OF PEPFAR SEEMS TO BE COMING FROM A REPORT THAT WAS AUTHORED BY CONSERVATIVE THINK TANK CALLED THE AND HERITAGE FOUNDATION, THE HIV-AIDS IS PRIMARILY A "LIFESTYLE" DISEASE.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IN FRAMING IT THAT WAY?

>> LIFESTYLE IS A DOG WHISTLE ON A COUPLE OF LEVELS, FIRST THING ABOUT BEING GAY OR TRANCE IS A LIFESTYLE, SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CHOOSE LIKE A SHIRT, THAT'S ONE LEVEL AND THEN TRYING TO SAY THAT PEOPLE GET A.I.D.S.

BECAUSE OF THEIR LIFESTYLE AND THE THINGS THEY CHOOSE TO DO.

THAT IS A REALLY UNFAIR THING TO SAY ON MULTIPLE LEVELS, CERTAINLY LOOKING ABROAD PEOPLE GET HIV AND A.I.D.S.

BECAUSE OF STRUCTURAL ISSUES, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE SO MANY CASES IS BECAUSE INCARCERATION AND HOMELESSNESS ARE MAJOR DRIVERS OF WHY PEOPLE GET HIV AND WHY IT PROGRESSES ONTO A.I.D.S., SO MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD ESPECIALLY THOSE -- THEY ARE NOT GETTING THE SUPPORT THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO STOP THIS TERRIBLE VIRUS FROM MOVING ON BETWEEN PEOPLE.

WHEN SOMEONE GETS HIV MEDICATION, THAT BECOMES WHAT BECOMES UNDETECTABLE, THEY CANNOT PASS ON THE VIRUS TO OTHER PEOPLE, WHEN THE MEDICATION WAS AVAILABLE, PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD IT AND SO MUCH OF THE WORLD, THE VIRUS IS MOVING THROUGH EXTREMELY NORMATIVE HUMAN ACTIVITIES.

THE MOST NORMATIVE BEING SEX , THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT RECEIVE MONEY FROM PEPFAR, THE MAJOR WAY PEOPLE BECOME HIV POSITIVE, IS THERE VERTICAL TRANSMISSION GETTING IT THROUGH THEIR PARENT WHILE THEY ARE PREGNANT, THEY ARE BORN WITH HIV-AIDS.

IT'S OF COURSE, THERE IS NOTHING IN THE LIFESTYLE OF A NEWBORN BABY FOR THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE SO OBSESSED THEY SAY WITH THE UNBORN.

THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THEIR LIFESTYLE THAT MAKES THEM BECOME HIV POSITIVE.

EVEN THE ADULTS, IS THROUGH COMPLETELY NORMATIVE HUMAN ACTIVITIES.

WRITING IT OFF AS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE CHANGED BY LIFESTYLE IS UNFAIR, STIGMATIZING, AND SIDESTEPS RESPONSIBILITY WE HAVE TO BRING THIS EPIDEMIC CLOSE IF THERE IS THE POLITICAL WILL TO DO SO.

THE MEDICATION IS THERE.

>> REPUBLICANS ARE CALLING FOR THIS AUTHORIZATION TO NOT BE ONCE EVERY FIVE YEARS BUT EVERY YEAR, IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?

>> IT'S A SIMILAR DYNAMIC WITH THINGS HAPPENING IN UNITED STATES WITH THE DEBT CEILING.

EVERY TIME THAT THESE KINDS OF THINGS CAN BE HELD HOSTAGE, THEY WILL BE.

A.I.D.S.

AND HIV ARE THINGS THAT TAKE LONG-TERM THINKING, WE ARE STILL IN THE COVEN 19 PANDEMIC.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK ABOUT THIS PANDEMIC BEING OVER EVEN THOUGH WE ARE ONLY ABOUT FOUR YEARS INTO IT BUT FIRST WERE UNAWARE FOR MORE THAN 40 YEARS, STILL A PANDEMIC, STILL KILLING THE BETTER PART OF 1 MILLION PEOPLE FOR A YEAR.

YOU CANNOT THINK ABOUT PLANS TO MITIGATE THAT OR END YEAR TO YEAR TO YEAR AND HAVE THIS BE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE HELD OVER VOTERS HAD IN CONGRESS HIS HEAD EVERY YEAR.

THERE IS AN INDEFINITE PERIOD OF TIME UNTIL THIS EPIDEMIC IS ENDED AND BROUGHT TO CONTROL.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT BE FAMILIAR WITH HOW PEPFAR HAS IMPACTED HIV AND A.I.D.S., WHAT ARE THE FUNDING SOURCES, WHAT ARE THE PROGRAMS HERE IN THE UNITED DATE THAT WOULD BE AFFECT DID IF PEPFAR FUNDING WAS DISCONTINUED.

PEPFAR IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE, THERE ARE SEVERAL DOMESTIC PROGRAMS.

THE CARE ACT IS A VERSION OF BASICALLY UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR PEOPLE WITH HIV, IT'S HAD SUCCESS FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN GET IT.

THE PEOPLE WHO MOST NEED IT, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AT RISK INCLUDING THOSE ARE A AND HOUSED, VERY RARELY CONNECT WITH THE PROGRAM.

PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED VERY RARELY CONNECT AND GET THE CARE THEY NEED, IT CONTINUES TO MOVE ON.

ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR AND REALLY SUCCESSFUL THINGS WE HAVE DONE IS A PROGRAM CALLED PREP FOR ALL, PEOPLE WHO BECOME POSITIVE OF THE HIV TAKE IT FROM THE MEDICATION, ANTIVIRAL MEDICATION.

PREP WHICH STANDS FOR PRE- EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS IS A DRUG YOU CAN TAKE EVERY DAY.

I TAKE IT MYSELF, IT GIVES YOU A SIMILAR MEDICATION BUT IF YOU ENCOUNTER HIV, IT KEEPS IT FROM TAKING HOLD IN YOUR BODY.

CITIES AND STATES, PARTICULARLY CITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

SAN FRANCISCO, CHICAGO, HAVE HAD REAL SUCCESS GETTING PREP OUT BROADLY TO POPULATIONS THAT ARE HIGHLY AT RISK.

YOUNG PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO ARE LGBTQ, PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE INSURANCE, TARGETED PREP CAMPAIGNS HAVE BEEN REALLY HELPFUL IN PLACES WHERE HIV HAS BROKEN OUT VIA THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC, AND PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT THINK THEY NEED TO TAKE AN HIV PREVENTION MEDICATION, THAT BECOMES A FACTOR IN WHEN THEY GO INTO A PLACE WHERE HIV IS BREAKING OUT, IT HELPS TRANSMISSIONS FROM HAPPENING.

I DON'T LIKE TO THINK IN SUCH CRUDE ECONOMIC WAYS, THIS IS ACTUALLY A VERY MONIES DATING -- MONEY-SAVING EXPENDITURE BECAUSE IT PEOPLE FROM BECOMING HIV-POSITIVE, IT SAVES MONEY DOWNSTREAM.

THERE ARE LOTS OF CONSERVATIVES WHO DON'T LIKE THE IDEA, THEY THINK IT IS A DRUG THAT MAKES PEOPLE PROMISCUOUS, IT IS ALLOWING PEOPLE TO GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING BY NOT BEING PUNISHED FOR HAVING SEX , TAKING AWAY ANY OF THESE TOOLS WOULD ACTUALLY ALLOW THE VIRUS TO LOW MUCH MORE, SOME OF IT WOULD FLOW TO PEOPLE WHO ARE AT A HIGH RISK POPULATION, SOME OF IT WOULD JUST MOVE ON TO PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF HIGH-RISK POPULATIONS.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WOULD INCREASE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE GETTING HIV IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD DIE OF A.I.D.S.

.

IT IS REALLY TERRIBLE SEEMED ENORMOUS ACCESS SOME CITIES HAVE HAD IN BRINGING DOWN TO ALMOST ZERO LEVELS IN POPULATIONS THAT USED TO HAVE HIGH LEVELS OF HIV, IT WOULD BE TERRIBLE TO ROLL THAT BACK AND LET HIV FLOURISH IN THE UNITED STATES MORE THAN MEDICATION COULD ALLOW IT TO STOP.

>>> WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE EFFECTS THAT POLICIES HAVE ON LIVES, I'M REMINDED IN 2015, THERE WAS A NEEDLE EXCHANGE PROGRAM THAT WAS ON -- OPPOSED BY MIKE PENCE OF INDIANA, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT CONDONED DRUG USE.

WE SAW VERY RAPIDLY THAT HIV OUTBREAK OF SOMETHING CLOSE TO 200 PEOPLE IN SCOTT COUNTY.

I'M WONDERING WHETHER THERE ARE RIPPLE EFFECTS THAT ARE MEASURABLE WHEN FUNDING DECREASES OVERSEAS ARTEMIS VIC LEE, WHAT WE SEE EPIDEMIOLOGIC HE IN COMMUNITIES.

>> CERTAINLY, HERE'S THE IMPORTANCE OF THINKING ABOUT IMPORTANCE OF HIV.

IN SCOTT COUNTY, AS HE SAID WHEN MIKE PENCE WAS THE GOVERNOR OF HERC HE HAD THE FASTEST HIV OUTBREAK THAT'S EVER BEEN RECORDED IN THE UNITED STATES, CASES, THEY FOUND THE FIRST CASE THAT WOULD VERY QUICKLY UP.

SCHOLARS INCLUDING MY FRIEND, THE YALE EPIDEMIOLOGIST INITIALLY LOOKED AT SOMETHING THAT SORT OF IS DARKLY HUMOROUS, THE QUESTION OF DID THOSE CASES MOVE QUICKLY BECAUSE MIKE PENCE FAMOUSLY SAID HE NEEDED A FEW DAYS TO PRAY ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO DO AN EXCHANGE, WHAT THEY FOUND WAS THAT THE CASES DO NOT INCREASE THAT MUCH IN THAT MOMENT, THE MAJOR TRANSMISSIONS THAT HAPPEN QUICKLY, WHY THOSE CASES MOVE SO QUICKLY WAS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO SURVEILLANCE IN THE SOUTHERN HALF OF INDIANA, THE REASON THERE WAS NOT SURVEILLANCE IS BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN RUNNING OUT OF THE STATE, EVERYBODY WHO PROVIDED ABORTION, IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO PROVIDE ABORTION, PLANNED PARENTHOOD CLINICS, THE PRIVATE CLINICS, PUBLIC CLINICS THAT HELP PEOPLE GET ABORTIONS THAT ARE ALSO DOING SEXUAL EDITED SECTION PREVENTION, STI EDUCATION, LGBTQ SEXUAL EDUCATION.

THEY ARE DOING HIV PREVENTION AND HIV TREATMENT.

IF PEPFAR WERE TO BE REPEALED, AND TO STOP ABORTIONS FROM HAPPENING IN OTHER COUNTRIES, HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AS DOBBS CAME IN AND ROWE WAS REPEALED.

WE SEE CLINICS THAT PROVIDE -- THOSE PLACES ARE PRIME TO THE PLACES WHERE HIV.

PEOPLE NEED STIGMATIZED HEALTHCARE INCLUDING ABORTION AND HIV PREVENTION, IF THEY ARE NOT THERE, NOBODY IS DOING THE CASES.

BY THE TIME YOU FIND OUT THERE IS AN HIV CASE, IT COULD HAVE BEEN MOVED INTO MANY CASES WHEN IT DID NOT NEED TO.

>> STEVEN TRASHER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT HAS INDEED BROUGHT SO MUCH RELIEF AROUND THE WORLD.

FINALLY TONIGHT, CLIMATE WEEK HAS BEGUN IN NEW YORK, THE ANNUAL SUMMIT TAKES PLACE DURING THIS ASSEMBLY TIME AS WORLD LEADERS CONVERGE ON THE CITY, TENS OF THOUSANDS MARCHED THROUGH MANHATTAN DEMANDING ACTION AND AN END TO FOSSIL FUELS, AT NIGHT, 1000 DRONES WERE LOST OVER THE EAST RIVER NEXT TO THE UNITED NATIONS, THE DRONES SHAPE SHIFTED FROM AMAZONIA WILDLIFE TO A WARNING.

THE WORLD BURNS, WE ARE ASKING WORLD LEADERS ABOUT THIS ALL WEEK REPORTING FROM THE U.N., THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT, SIGN UP FOR A NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.