from WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour is made in how we disconnect our work lives from our personal or home lives.

Are you able to do it?

Are you someone who feels like you got to bring work home with you all the time?

Do you want more separation?

A kind of severing of your work life from your personal life?

This is a common battle that many people feel like they're fighting all the time.

And it's at the core of the biggest hit Apple TV has ever had, a show called severance, that offers a science fiction view of what could happen if we could truly separate work from home.

The show presents the idea of an ene and an outie self.

The innie is the person you are inside of work, in this case for a company called lumen.

The Audi is who you are outside the walls of the office, and instead of wrestling with the Eni and Audi, overlapping lumen makes it scientific.

Implant a chip that severs one from the other.

Lumen employees become entirely different people in the office.

They are unaware of who they are outside of work, and their Audi selves are unaware of what happens when they go to lumen.

Never the two shall meet.

Well, this is a streaming series, and so you know that the two must meet.

Lumen is up to something.

It becomes clear that this is not just a company that cares benignly about protecting employees from taking their work home.

The Outis begin to wonder what the INS are doing, the any start to learn more about how lumen is using its science, its technology, its ideas.

Severance season two just wrapped, and if you watch, you've probably been buzzing since the finale.

If you don't, maybe you wonder what all the fuss is about.

But this hour, you do not need to be a severance fan to appreciate the themes that we're going to talk about.

How far would you go to make sure your home life was separated from work?

How far would you go to be able to block out negative life experiences if you could?

Would you take a pill?

Would you get a chip implanted?

If you could eliminate the pain of childbirth, or the anxiety of air travel or other experiences that you wish you didn't have to go through?

Let's talk about it this hour with our guests.

Scott Lucas is communications director for the Little Theater.

Great to see you back here.

Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Mona Eisler, executive office administrator for I, who is probably the freshest on severance because you've you have crammed it.

I did, I binged it all in a matter of weeks.

Both seasons.

Were you, like, a skeptic, thinking, I don't know.

And then you just saw one episode and you're like, that's it, 1,000%.

So you held out for a while?

I did, for many years, actually.

I wanted to I didn't want to watch.

I either have to get in on the bandwagon right away or I'm going to wait years and years and years to watch.

so I didn't watch the first season and I kept hearing all the buzz, and I know I got to jump in right away.

If I don't get in now, I'm never going to get in.

I was afraid it was scary because it presents itself as eerie.

And really, I thought it was a horror, something, you know?

Yeah, it's more of a thriller.

Psychological, psychological thriller sometimes.

But it was episode one and I was locked.

There we go.

Paul Buckley, film commissioner for film Utica, is on the line with us to Paul, first of all, welcome us.

Hey, thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having me.

I'm flattered.

Very flattered.

Well, are you are you a fan of the show?

Have you seen.

Have you seen the show?

I've caught it.

I've had a couple episodes.

And of course, you know, we had an episode I shot here in town, and it was quite exciting.

But, the whole concept of.

As everybody else was saying, it scares me.

I mean, it's just, I'm more or less a realist, and my bride and I were going to sit down, and we had to settle down and watch this thing one of these days.

But, you know, the sci fi just doesn't, it doesn't do anything for me, to tell you the truth.

But but it's it's a great success.

I have a lot of friends who watch it, and they love it.

They absolutely love it.

We're going to talk to Paul coming up here about how Utica got an episode here.

By the way, the rumors of what the per episode budget are for the show are off the charts, which is why Ben Stiller is literally tweeting, I'm going to still use that word tweeting, begging for a third season because as much of a hit as the show is, it's an expensive show to make.

So, so Utica was one of the beneficiaries that we're going to talk about that coming up here with Paul.

I'll welcome your feedback, listeners, if you are fans of severance or if you want to know what all the fuss is about or if you just want, I want to talk about the struggle of separating home and work life.

And I'm going to also welcome some of that feedback coming up.

And I want to say there's a little not to get a little meta here, but there's a little bit of a meta overlap here.

Because if the connections team was able to sever when we leave aside, we leave it all like we don't even know.

We're not even aware, right?

If that had happened, then we wouldn't have a show right now.

Because the reason we're talking severance today and not later this week or next week like we planned, is because the 1:00 hour canceled at about 9:00 last night.

And so our home life and our work life overlaps.

That's what happens when you work for the show and you're always kind of working, and then you figure it out.

And I've got great colleagues who love the show who are going to be here to talk about it.

So, listeners, you can weigh in.

We'll talk severance.

Let's start with a little clip.

Let's listen to a clip.

I think this is from season one.

Season one.

As Mona said.

Still, it's so several years old, it took like 3 or 4 years to get the next season made correct.

And so season two just wrapped.

But this is from season one.

And in this clip Adam Scott plays Mark Britt, lower plays heli and they're in the office.

They're talking about lives outside of the office that because of the situation now at Lumon they may never know.

Let's listen.

So I'll never leave here.

You'll leave at five.

Well actually they stagger exit.

So 515, but it won't feel like it.

Not to this version of you anyway.

Do you have a family?

You'll never know.

I have no choice.

Well, every time you find yourself here, it's because you chose to come back.

Well, you got this smirk on your face.

You love that.

Why do you love it?

Why do I love the show?

Why do I love the cast of the seven?

Yeah, both of I think I love the show because it is a very unique take on a whole bunch of different themes in one place.

It is about the lengths that people would go to to forget the lengths that people would go to through, to not have to deal with some of the realities of their lives, which makes sense to all of us.

Right?

Absolutely.

it deals with corporate espionage and intrigue and cult like, religiosity.

You know what I mean?

It is a lot of all of those things all at once.

And so whatever pulls you in, it gives you just enough of everything to keep you coming back because you want to know what happens.

There are so many mysteries that are sprinkled about throughout the show.

Every episode you're just like, what was that?

What does that mean?

And you're all, you come back because you're trying to wait for them to tell you what does that mean?

And some things they answer and some things they absolutely never answer.

Did they give you enough answers at the end of season two to be satisfied and hoping for a season when they could have told me nothing and I would have been satisfied?

Come on.

No, seriously.

No, they they did it answered a lot of questions.

It left a big, huge gap.

You are weird.

Definitely waiting to find out what happens in season three because it leaves you.

You're you're basically reaching out towards the TV like, no, wait, you're spoilers.

Don't go, don't go.

It's going to be years before we get to come back to the story, truly.

And I think that I think Scott would agree that you're just sort of like, wait, wait, is that it?

And it was a very long episode.

It was like an hour and 15 minutes.

It's got pocus.

Why do you love the show.

So it's a lot like lost.

listeners know I love lost where there's a lot of mysteries as Mona said.

But at its core it's a really human story.

it's also very funny.

The company should have been called Dahmer.

That would have been amazing.

There's similarities between Dahmer, but there's a lot of humor in it.

So if you've watched the the term Waffle Party comes up, that's it.

Just there are funny little bits in it.

but it tells a lot with the human issue because as I alluded to in the clip, the end is this is all they're experiencing.

They go in an elevator, they're at work, they go out and like, their whole life is just this work.

So it's it deals a lot with, you know, relationships.

And what do they deserve?

Do they deserve love?

Do they deserve more than just this?

And of course, if someone leaves the company lumen.

And what happens?

Is there any they essentially don't exist.

So there's a lot of like philosophical deeper questions.

in this package of a thrilling mystery box show with humor, good acting, good writing.

So I just, you know, I just love every bit of it.

And I watched when this first aired, so I was the one who got to recommend it to people very excitedly.

but that had to wait almost three years to treat season two.

Which season one is the finale of?

That is one of the best single episodes I've ever seen of TV, and it's really fast paced.

I think it's only like 40 minutes and it ends on kind of a cliffhanger.

A note where you definitely want to watch more.

so that was that was a long wait between between seasons.

And again, Ben Stiller, who's the the director or the creator.

Yeah.

So I mean, he's not on camera in this one.

And people know Ben Stiller, of course, as an actor, but this is, he's a big part of of why this is getting done.

And he's not even sure if they're going to do a season three, although all the fans say there must be.

Apple has confirmed this season.

Yeah, yeah, during the weekend.

We're good.

We're over the weekend.

Breaking news.

Well, I was in my Audi self I didn't know.

I can't work all the time.

Let me ask all three of you this and I want to say again, we're not going to try to spoil too much of the show.

If you want to start severance like Mona and then just binge it.

but I want to ask all three of you about the first concept before we get to some of the other.

Really, I think really interesting psychological aspects at play here.

The first one is just if we should desire to fully separate that work and personal life, or if we and again, I've got, you know, colleagues in the room here and I know all of you work all the time, but you also work for a place that has a mission that you love.

So I wouldn't want to fully separate.

I mean, although I know that there are times where you go, oh, boy, I'm out of balance here.

Why do you think this concept, Mona, is so powerful to the viewer?

Is it because it's such a common experience where people feel like my life's out of balance?

You know, I got to bring my work home with me.

I can't separate from it entirely.

Is it that balance issue?

You know, they they sell it in the show as work life balance.

But really, it's not that at all for the for the knees and the outis.

It really is about separating themselves from pain or separating themselves from experiences that are hard to deal with.

this is not a spoiler.

Mark S who was the any, Mark scout is the Audi.

Mark Scout's wife died in a tragic car accident, and he had a really, really hard time.

And he thinks that, you know, going through the severance procedure and working at lumen gives him eight hours of not having to be grieving.

Eight hours of not having to think about his wife because he's totally unaware, because he's totally unaware.

He's he goes to work.

He doesn't have to think about all the things that he's going through at home the grief, the drinking.

He lost his job.

You know what I'm saying?

For him, severance was a reprieve from his existence.

So and I think ultimately, all of the ends are, that's what they are.

They're a reprieve from something or a chance to be something else than what they are.

It is sold as work life balance, but in the realities, it is not that.

And I think all of us on some level, wish we could step away from some of these hard things that we deal with in our life.

But I love to not feel fear when I get on a plane.

Certainly what I love to forget the pain of childbirth.

Certainly what I love to fear, you know, not have to fear.

grief and all that kind of stuff we do.

But also experiencing all of those things is the richness and fullness of this existence that we have.

Scott.

Yeah, I think it's such an interesting concept for just those reasons.

Mona was saying, that those experiences, of course, it makes sense that if you have tragedy or grief or even just something you don't want to do, if you don't like going to your work, it makes sense that you'd want to separate that.

but you know, kind of as Mona was saying, that just makes us who we are.

And of course, there's the cause and effect of it in the show.

When you suffer, it's like, okay, I don't want to have to deal with this.

So I'll do that.

But there's still another version of you who then?

That's that's their entire life.

So then it could be that's one of the, the philosophical questions that are happening.

So it's almost like a torture or a jail for the any if they're like, if someone's scared of flying.

So they're like, I want to suffer.

And, so I don't have to deal with that.

But then there any would be that would be their entire existence.

It would be just on that plane.

Or in this case of the show, it's just in war.

All the trauma, all the possible negative experiences.

Yeah.

And, kudos to the show and the the actors in the show.

from the scenes that I've seen, how remarkable the actors are at playing in any in an Audi that are very different, in tone, in personality, you know, it really, really smart, really, really well done.

so I may end up bingeing it just like Mona sooner.

I just love the concepts here.

Paul Buckley, what about you?

Are you a workaholic?

Do you feel like I'm working all the time and that's just life?

Or do you feel like you can separate things now?

It is.

I am a workaholic.

I take my work holidays that if, like, I sleep with my work, I'll be like in bed thinking about I produce a TV show as well.

So I'm always editing.

I'm always doing something and I'm full of them.

I have three daughters, so I'm an emotional wreck.

Okay, so anytime I can't separate anything, you know, it's all part of life, and I. I deal with it, and I love it.

I wouldn't change it.

I mean, this whole concept, it sounds like, you know, it sounds like the big brother.

The company is controlling these people so they get the most out of them.

And I just, I just think that there's this, you know, there's they've got to be free.

They have to have their own emotions.

I mean, it's all part of life.

It's all part of growing out, part of experiencing life, and life is beautiful.

And I just, you know, I love being an emotional wreck.

Well, Paul, so let me expand on that point then.

You've got three daughters.

And like any parent, you know what it's like to have anxiety about your kids and wanting them to do well.

Oh my God, yes.

At the same time, it's, you strike me as someone who thinks I will always worry about you.

I will always love you.

I will always want what's best for you.

But I would not take away your capacity to feel hard or painful things because you need to experience those things.

And.

And so I'm wondering for you, if you if there was a technology, if there was a chip, if there was a pill that could say, hey, you can make it so that your daughters never experience pain or bad things.

I mean, is that something that you would do?

I would leave that up to them.

You know, it's it's their choice.

But I mean, I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it.

You know, I know you know, something so sick I thought I would probably try it for a day, but then probably when I took it out or take the chip out, I wouldn't remember it.

So I don't know how good that would be.

You know, the purpose would serve, but no, I'm I'm totally pro.

I'm pro motion, you know, you gotta have it.

It's all part of life.

It's love, it's agents, it's whatever.

It's frustration, you know, that kind of stuff.

You gotta deal with it.

Well.

And so right away, Pat wants to know how much of this is related to, the movie sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

So that goes back to then, a 90s movie.

Jim Carrey, 2004.

Thank you.

Scott Lucas, for the little bit off the top.

I mean, it's right on the top.

Yes, it's one of my favorite movies.

Movie.

Yeah, it's a great movie.

I saw it when it came out.

I haven't seen it since.

but how similar are the concepts that we're talking about here?

there's definitely similarities.

I'm watching that movie and the show, they're they're different, but it's kind of the same.

So in the movie, Jim Carrey's character wants to erase the memories of a past relationship.

So that's it's a little different that they're just erasing the memories.

He's not a separate self, but it's kind of similar in the way it's where it's almost like sci fi light, where it's like a very science fiction concept, but it's not an overly science fiction show that both the movie, and the TV program are more about these relationships, these characters.

And then, of course, it has this kind of sci fi mystery element as well.

another listener wants to know if does the any know if they're married or in a relationship.

So so let you go ahead, Mona?

No not really.

So they don't in in in the perfect world of lumen, they do not know anything that is happening outside of the building, even if they are married, even if they have children.

Correct.

They don't know anything.

They their whole existence is stepping off the elevator every single day.

You step off the elevator, step off.

That's your identity.

That's your your knowledge.

And then you step on the elevator, and then immediately you're stepping back off the elevator again the next day.

Okay?

Don't let my wife find out about that.

One of the thing about it is, is that it's about delving into the humanity of the knees and how they work to find their own humanity.

They work to create their own familial connections.

They work to this is their life.

And so they spend an inordinate amount of time developing relationships amongst each other and creating friendships and family.

But aren't they warned not to fraternize and to outside of their own department, outside of their own department?

Okay, which they do anyway, right?

But what what I think is interesting here is, so this is where the show seems to have some critique about what sort of big, rich corporations expect of their workers, which is like when you're in the building here, it's eight hours or 10 hours or 9 hours of you and there is no outside you.

It's just you hear.

And some people already feel like that's their lives.

Anyway, and so what this show does is it takes it to this extreme, and then it explores the question, would those workers be just drones who are, you know, doing widgets all day, or would they start to explore their identity and ask those questions and create relationships, even if they're not supposed to?

Is that the human condition and the answer seems to be, Mona, that the human condition is yes.

You cannot force somebody just to be a drone worker who doesn't have a sense of agency and interest in relationships, right?

You put humans together, humanity will rise from that.

They will find their own humanity, whether they think it or not.

People who are on the outside don't consider them as people, but it's the same person.

That's the problem is that there's a this big argument is it a is that an entirely different person?

It's not.

Mark gets in the elevator and then when he gets off the elevator inside Lumon, he's still Mark.

He's just a different version of himself.

And the question is, does that person exist?

But when Mark leaves, does any mark still exist?

And that's that's the confusion of.

And the thing that people have been debating all these years is, are they actually people?

Do they deserve humanity?

Do they deserve right?

The attention?

Do they deserve rights?

All of that.

And they go about trying to figure that out for themselves.

Scott, do you want to add to that?

I mean, this idea of of creating relationships in the human condition.

Yeah.

And the show really dives into this concept in such creative, clever ways that, of course, if anyone's listening, we want them to check out the show.

So really, we're trying to be really.

Do you have to, like, spoil it and say what happens?

But that they they really take this concept and go in interesting ways, even of what we were talking about a moment ago, where the Chinese don't know anything about their outside life and it creates interesting dynamics that the show is really clever and creative about exploring.

And I think that's one of the reasons I really like the show is just unpredictable and they take this original concept, which is a killer concept for a show.

It's such a great preface for a show, and they just keep adding these layers and they keep adding new interesting, elements that you're like, of course that makes sense that that is the direction they would go in, but it still manages to be very imaginative and unpredictable.

and it's a show.

Yeah.

Where I definitely think people I could see why people would pinch through it.

And and it's a good one too.

So I watched it week to week.

So there's a lot to discuss too.

And that's why I said it reminded me of lost because they're, you know, this this company luminous, mysterious even what the.

So obviously the Saudis have no idea what the Chinese work is and the Chinese aren't really sure.

And even as viewers, we're like, what is this?

What they're doing?

Doing?

It's they're, you know, they're just at computers and they have numbers and they're putting these numbers in bins.

And then there's other departments, but they don't know about these other departments or what they do.

So there's a lot of different and like the longest hallways in history.

Yeah.

The hallways, the hallways are a character, and all on their own in the same way that the hotel was a character in The Shining.

Yes.

Yeah.

It really I'm fascinated by the hallways, and I want to know I need to see this set because it's fascinating.

It's stark white and there just so many turns and corners and it's just it's like a huge maze.

And it is amazing to watch them travel.

Well, if we're talking about the show severance and the themes of the show, you don't have to be a fan of the show to appreciate this conversation.

But about the set, you may be thinking like, wait a second, did they do all that in Utica?

I don't think they did that part in Utica.

Paul Buckley is on the line with the film commissioner for Film Utica, and it was a couple years ago, probably 3 or 4 years ago when when severance was filming season one, or was it season two, season 1 or 2?

Season two seasons, or they just had an episode nine this year was featured in Utica and it was it the Union Station or train station, which is just like a it's like a Taj Mahal.

It's it's it's probably the most photographed building in Utica and it's lovely.

And, they were there for a couple days and they get right to the budget.

They spent like a couple million dollars here and a couple of days, you know, they brought in a cool, probably 200 that's extras and crew.

And they brought it a couple of truckloads of cars, vintage cars for the, for the, for the time period.

And, they spared no expense.

I was, I was told was it was a closed set.

And there are some people like, you know, some people around and they were taking pictures.

And then Grace was calling me, telling me to go, and I said, I have no control.

These are pictures of people right underneath their nose.

So that's they were they were very, very, very upset about that.

They kept it very close.

And it was one time, you know, they had this fake snow outside the building and I, and I was driving by and I wanted to show my wife how the how the special effects left, how real it looked.

So I took a picture and I sent it to my wife.

No sooner did I send it, I got a call from Grace.

She goes where are you doing?

And I said, oh my goodness, I can't believe they had eggs everywhere.

You know, I couldn't do anything because it was very, very tight.

And, it was exciting.

I mean, and they mingled around town.

They did.

They did Airbnbs, restaurants, you know, the nightclubs and, Ben Stiller, you know, he was he you couldn't get to him.

But once he was off, off the set, he went to the restaurants.

He was it was fake doing selfies with people.

He's a great guy.

He had a lot of fun, everybody.

A lot of fun with the guy.

And I want them back here because, you know, they had a it was a great thing for the city of Utica.

Unbelievable.

yeah.

Lots of locations like that.

So I mean, do you think they had a good time when they come back and film some more in season three?

I would, I would love I would love that.

You know, we have.

And right by the train station we have an antique train there.

So I mean, if anybody is looking for like a vintage 1900 train, we've got that that goes up at the Adirondacks.

We've got a lot of stuff here that a lot of people don't know about.

And I'm trying to get the word out where.

And it's cheap here.

It's, I shouldn't say cheap.

It's affordable, but it really is cheap here.

And, and so everything's great, and, the people of Utica are fantastic.

They go out of their way, they bend over backwards to help people out.

And so, you know, I've had a lot of movies here and, 2 million, 2 million is probably about the biggest, one of the biggest ones we've had here.

And I get a lot of Indies here, like for half that budget and stuff like that.

But I always tell there's still some students that I work with.

I go, you surround yourself with talented people and the thing will look beautiful and you get a good cinematographer and the movie just comes out great.

We've had a lot of great movies there, so I can't say enough about, Ben and his kid and his people.

They were very, very kind to me and very nice.

And, I want them back.

I want them all back.

Well, Paul, I got to say, I love hearing that Ben Stiller.

And, you know, the people that you worked with from severance were good to.

You were good to the town.

It's always good.

It's always a bummer when you hear celebrities are kind of jerks.

And it's always nice to know that the people you want to be, you know, good dudes are good dudes.

So, they were they were they were so far from the opposite of that.

It was unbelievable.

They were very congenial, very friendly.

It's great doing that for you.

But, all they asked was that you just keep the set close and obey their rules.

And, you know, we all did.

So everybody but everybody get along famously.

That's great.

Mona, I saw your face when when Paul mentioned the train station and he called it the Taj Mahal.

And I'm like, well, if you haven't been to Ithaca, is he overselling it?

But you said I saw you say it's beautiful.

Yes.

And it's one of my favorite scenes in the whole series in the train station.

It's with John Turturro and Christopher Walken.

Yeah.

And it was just.

It was heart wrenching.

The things that things matter.

Yeah.

It's been.

Yeah, it was it was it just.

Yeah.

Don't spoil it.

Money.

I didn't spoil anything as well.

And most of the actors in the scenes Paul don't spoil it.

You're some of your filmmakers a couple of you just go check it out.

I mean, they'll fall in love with it.

As a matter of fact, we've got a couple movies coming up there that now this this spring and summer that'll be shot there too as well.

So that's great.

It's a great place sought after.

No, that's that's great.

We've we've got some feedback from listeners that we're going to share on the other side of our only break, we're talking about severance, the show and why it has become such a big hit.

the biggest that Apple has had this weekend.

My get my co-panelists tell me, having fact checked you on this, but Apple's confirmed to season three, so, producer Megan Mac is fact check that for me as well.

My head is spinning here.

What a Monday.

But the idea of severance, is this idea of separating your work life from your outside work life through scientific means?

And would you want to do that?

And is there a benefit to that, or is there a cost to that?

So we're talking to Scott Pincus and Mona Eisler.

My colleagues here, Paul Buckley, film Commissioner from Film Utica, is on the line with us.

And you just heard the story of how severance went to Utica to film for season two.

So we're going to come right back.

If you want to weigh in on why you love the show or what your thoughts on the show, the themes, you can do that by email, connections at dawg, connections at KCI dawg.

Or you can call the program toll free.

It's 84429528442958255263 WXXI.

If you're calling from Rochester, 2639994.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Tuesday on the next connections.

The view from Canada as the Trump administration continues to talk about annexation or making Canada the 51st state.

Then in our second hour, we welcome Kate Sheeran, dean of the Eastman School of Music here, and began her role last year.

We sat down with her to discuss her vision for Eastman's future.

Talk to you Tuesday.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carey, Yola center.

Proud supporter of connections with Evan Dawson, believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Alex writes to say I love how effectively the show plays on the modern evils of alienation between our work and the impact of our work between companies and people, and between who we have to be at work and who we want to be at home.

Alex also says milkshake is best.

what is that?

I don't know.

Yes.

Alex?

Yes.

Alex says milkshake is best.

That is beyond me.

So I'm going.

I'm going to let that part go.

Although our guests in studio seem to be affirming, Milk milkshake is best.

Yeah.

So he's, someone that works for Lumin.

the actor Tramell Tillman, I think should win Emmys for all of the Emmys.

So many.

first of all, he he's very funny, unintentionally.

Like, it's not trying to be funny, but just the actor, like, little things that he does.

and it really, I think, especially in season two, like his character.

Really?

Yeah.

I start to speak about this very vaguely, but but yeah, Belichick is a great character.

I agree with that.

You will come to love him.

but his other point is about the evils of alienation, the struggle with alienation, and the way we try to be the person.

In Alex's words, we have to be at work versus who we want to be at home.

Mona, for you are those two fundamentally different things?

No they're not.

Not me.

No.

Not anymore.

I think when I was younger, probably, I think I spent a lot of time trying to cultivate this, work persona versus who I am at home.

But I think I got tired of trying to to to be all of those things.

And so I just am who I am.

Everywhere you see me, I am the same person.

I'm on the same person on social, at work, at home I don't switch.

Yeah.

And, there's a book that comes to mind, Megan Mac Gia Tolentino, whose book is about this book.

I forget the name of the book.

but Gia Tolentino writes about the way that we are performing, and she uses the word performing very intentionally.

She doesn't mean, performing on stage.

She means understanding, the role that you have to play at work.

So when Scott is at work, you are performing the duties of work.

You may be performing a persona to a degree, or you might be saying, I don't need to try to perform.

I'm comfortable, you know, I can roll with who I am without kind of amping up, but there's always some element of performance and the question becomes, are those is your home self?

So unperformed and is your work self so drowned in the need to perform that you lose your sense of self, or you feel so different in place to place and money.

You seem liberated by the idea of that, that in your mind there's not a difference.

Not for me.

Yeah, but I know that's not the case for a lot of people.

And I think, I think for me it's just age and wisdom and, you know, becoming comfortable with who I am.

I think a lot of the performance is what society demands you be when you or, you know, step into the workplace.

All of those performative things that we need to do to succeed, to get promotions, to get and recognition.

And and I'm not saying that those things are bad in any way, shape or form or fashion.

We all, you know, I think we were raised into that idea that when you go into the workplace, you behave this way in order to get this outcome.

And I stopped believing in that.

And I a long time ago.

I mean, I think that there's some power, mostly in my 50s once I get into my 50s when I just, you know, is there is there some DiMaggio magic?

Agree with that 100%?

Is there some magic about hitting your 50s and going like, I just don't care anymore?

I am who I am?

Yes.

Was when the hit 50 somebody steps on the gas pedal and I just it just starts flying by and you don't care anymore.

You know that's that's basically in my case.

But yeah I agree with up on that.

That's great.

It's wonderful.

the book by the way, is by GTO and it's called Trick Mirror Reflections on Self-delusion.

I would recommend it.

really interesting concepts about how we think of ourselves, how we present ourselves, etc.. How do you how comfortable do you feel about work and and non-work?

Scott.

Yeah, my my work and personal life is a lot.

There's a lot of similarities.

Like my before I worked at the little I was in journalism, I was a print, reporter for a newspaper.

I worked in television.

So a lot of my passions intertwine with work.

Like I love movies, I love talking about movies.

That's what I do for a living.

So there's a lot of connection there.

but a lot of my job is public facing, too, so there's always a little bit of a performance there when you're.

Yeah, you know, interacting with a lot of people onstage, a lot like doing different types of stuff, but but really a lot of what I do for work is, is core to who I am.

And it's my passions.

And I guess we're fortunate that we're in positions where we're passionate about.

Yes.

I mean, the show is very much a satire on working in office life, just being an office drone, going in a cubicle, being on a computer.

And I'm lucky that's not my job.

you know, you know, some people have that, some people enjoy that.

But I think that's kind of what the satire is of that.

You know, you just you dread going into work every day.

And I just want to make sure I something.

Oh, yeah.

Good.

If you love, if you love your job, if you love your work, it's not a job, okay?

If you love it, you want to look forward to it every day.

It's not work.

I, I, I'm, I'm like 60% there with you.

I mean, like, I think I, I think I know exactly what you're saying, Paul is like, everybody's had jobs where you dread it, like you just like the last thing I do is go to the job and then you've had jobs and you're like, I'm excited to be at work today, like I but I, you know, I love this job.

There's one microphone like this in the entire region.

I still feel like it's work, like it's it's a lot of work.

I love it, but go ahead.

No, the only thing I was going to say is I want to make clear that that performing at work does not remove authenticity.

And a lot of people think that you can't you're not being you're authentic.

That's a really good.

But I want to make it clear that you can still be your true authentic self, even if you have to put on what we call performance when you're at work, because some people think that those are not the same thing.

Even when I was in that place, I still I just became more authentic to myself for myself, which is why I don't feel like I'm, you know, different in between all these different spaces.

Wherever I step is who I am.

except when I'm on stage performing and then I am actually performing.

So I think, no, I think that's a really important point.

I will also say Mega mexicana get annoyed with me because I know she's heard this story a number of times, but like, so, to Scott's point about public facing jobs, sometimes people will say things in public and it's really nice.

And, I probably I started on this program in 2014, January of 2014.

I bet you it wasn't until 2020 that I stopped having people in the grocery store.

I'd be like, I watch you on channel 13 every morning.

I'm like, every morning you're like, like, wow.

Like every morning, you know, like it's been years, but that's your idea.

And yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe there's another part of me that I didn't know.

Now, it was really lovely when people will do that anyway, it means that they appreciate your work.

People talk about the show all the time, and I'm always flattered and I love that.

I love it, but are they watching you at work?

Yeah, I, I'm not working for Lumina, I don't think.

but I will say the one thing that I do get to do where, like, there is nothing involving any public facing thing, is coaching baseball.

So I've got kids who have no concept of anything else other than, hey, that's coach.

And there was a kid last month at practice and he comes up to me and goes, hey, coach, I searched you up on Google and you're kind of a celebrity.

This kid's 11.

And I was like, no, no.

And he's like, no, you kind of are.

And I asked my parents and they said, you kind of are.

And I was like, let's go back to baseball here.

so but in that moment, like it made me realize how much I appreciate a chance to kind of sever.

Like for me, that's kind of that's kind of a severing for me.

And that's all I'm focused on there.

And that's all I'm known as, and that's all I want to be.

And I do feel an appreciation for that.

So cherish those moments.

Yeah, I do, I do, man, I do Paul because they're going to be safe.

They're fleeting.

I'm with you there.

I mean I understand and as best I can in the moment, but I appreciate I appreciate any anytime somebody I'm sure you do too.

And I'm sure, you know, Monet, you're such a big part of this company that when people in public are talking about sex, I in really loving, positive ways.

I wouldn't I wouldn't not want that.

I wouldn't want my Audi not to know about my the work I do on the inside.

Right.

Like, I mean, that's such a part of who you are.

I don't know how you would separate it.

So which leads me to my next question before I, I want to get to some of what Eric Deggans from NPR said, which I thought was interesting.

Before I get there, though, why do we want so much to separate?

Because I feel like what the show is is not a prediction of the future, but there will be something in the future that is similar, whether it's a pill, a drug, a shot or something that will give you the chance to have some kind of disassociating from trauma.

And we seem, as a society, obsessed with going for it.

And the show is showing you what corporations will do with that power, which a big spoiler.

It ain't good.

It ain't like really.

It ain't like super moral.

but why are we going to get to a place where we appreciate all that about our selves?

Or is that just come with wisdom?

I mean, you know, I mean, do you feel more wise about appreciating having dealt with traumas in your 50s compared to your 30s or 20s?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

and dealing let's because you never stop.

Do you.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So and and in the very first episode, Mark has a sister named Devin, and she's talking to him about, you know, on the outside about his experience going into the office and, he's she's asking him, is he still going to therapy?

And he says, no.

And she says, you know, eight hours a day not thinking about Gemma is not the same as healing.

Which I think is what this is all about for him, at least for Mark, it is about forgetting.

It's not about healing and having to experience all of the things that we experience, and not separating ourselves from these things is what allows us to face it, walk through it and heal.

If we just distance ourself, if we just disassociate or forget temporarily from right, we never get the opportunity to get the down, dirty, ugly experience of healing from trauma, or from bad experiences or from divorce or or any of those things.

I think that's what I'm saying.

It is these things are what make us as human as we can possibly be.

And that's what the endings are actually developing about themselves, is they're developing their own humanity outside of who they are.

I love that distinction between healing and forgetting, and forgetting is not the same as healing or temporarily scrubbing out.

I agree, Paul, if you think Paul about maybe the hardest things you've ever gone through, would you, would you would you forget something?

I wish I could, yeah, maybe.

I know there are a lot of things I wish I could forget, but the only thing about the healing, it's all part of a process.

And if and if you're altered by a chip or some kind of thing, it's not really healing.

You know, you're not healing you.

You're not growing.

And that's so.

So I don't know, I'm, I'm I'm a strong advocate on natural healing and all this kind of stuff we've just figured out for yourself, and that's all.

That's what life is.

So I don't know if I may be off on a whatever.

What am I smoking?

I have no idea.

Well, here's what Eric Deggans of NPR said about severance.

He said, quote, I'm always fascinated by new ways that storytellers find to talk about the plight of subjugated people and the fight for all the any personalities at lumen to somehow free themselves, free themselves from the company's control, while also hoping for a solution that keeps them from getting erased if their Audi is fired by the company, speaks to the terrible extremes many people oppressed in real life must try to negotiate.

Eight that's from Eric Deggans.

Wow.

What do you think?

Is that that fair?

What do you I, I don't ask me to be.

That was deep.

no, I, I think that is that is it in a nutshell.

Without giving away anything, they're trying to be who they are.

They want to know who they are on the outside, but they don't want to give up their inside selves because that's all they know.

And they're trying to figure out.

I think season three is what is is where we go with this is once they know who they are on the outside and they've decided they want to make their lives richer and fuller on the inside, what does that really look like?

How does that work?

That's season three.

Okay.

Scott Lucas, what do you make of what Eric Deggans said there?

Yeah, that was deep.

I'm glad went with you, universe.

I think yeah, it really speaks to the human spirit.

Yeah.

You know what these ideas are going through?

And it definitely it can relate to to other factors and real world things as well.

But it really it really speaks to that.

But like you can't keep these people down like there's these mysteries, this stuff that they want to know.

You know, they don't accept being like are we prisoners to our workplace?

Like we don't accept that, you know, the audience, don't consider them as even human as I think you said earlier, it's like we don't accept that we are real people who deserve all the emotions that everyone else that the, out do love friendship, all that stuff.

I mean, a conversation around corporate subjugation is, it's probably outside of my pay grade.

so I understand what it is.

He's trying to say that the way in which work, what lengths work will go to to get you tethered to their mission, to the work where, regardless of what it is you have to go through to so that they can get the most out of you to get the most output right.

Which is exactly what lumen is doing.

That's why nobody knows what's going on.

You go inside your little space, you do a little work.

If you've ever seen the the the setup of the macro data refinement area where they work, it's four desks all connected and like a little pod in the middle of a giant empty room.

It's empty.

There's a bathroom, and then there's a supply closet.

And it's it's so it's like it's so stark but also so tight.

It's very I don't know how to explain.

Yeah.

And lumen is very cult like to.

Yeah.

Which is definitely.

Yeah.

It's kind of that clean look.

Reminds me of like a cult there and they, they lumen treats the enemies as children.

The, the things that they give them.

They've created the reality of what it is supposed to look like, the treats they get in the, in the vending machine, the paper, the, the rewards they get for doing a good job are so simplistic and so outside of anything that we would recognize as a normal thing, because they've created that for them, they don't know that they should.

It want the little finger, the finger trap.

Yeah, the finger traps.

That's a reward for finishing a, you know, and that's like what you would give a three year old.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then they and then they have a treat.

They have a fruit party, they bring in fruit and they, you know, you get cantaloupe like it's a they make these things as though that's the reward.

They've treated them.

They've infantilized them because all they want them to do is refine.

Okay.

So this leads us to some of what Patrick has been writing about.

First of all, Patrick, how to say, hey man, is this just a rewrite of the sitcom Office Space?

Give it to me straight.

No no no no, no office space.

office.

Not the office.

Office space.

The Mike judge movie, 1999.

Yeah, it's that got.

Stop showing.

That's not true.

1990s.

Yeah.

You are unbelievable.

You are unbelievable.

I mean, even Paul Buckley, who works and, you know, in the film office is like that guy.

That guy knows everything.

I know, I know that date, but it is a classic.

Office space is a classic.

And no, Patrick, this is not just like a reworking at this very different.

It's very dystopian in many ways.

but then he asked, in some ways, is this the opposite of Mickey 17?

And I actually see some similarities here.

So Mickey 17 is the movie, that we had talked about recently.

Scott hosted a great discussion at The little.

The author of the book, Mickey seven, a sci fi novel, is from Rochester.

he's a cancer researcher who became a sci fi writer, and all of a sudden, boom, his book becomes a movie.

It's got Mark Ruffalo, it's got, if, well, it's, Robert Pattinson.

Robert Pattinson plays Mickey.

So, so that film, though, here's where it gets similar.

And this is one I want to ask all of our guests.

Like when you think of the future and you think of all the technology that's going to change, maybe in our lifetime, but in our grandkids lifetime and in their grandkids lifetime.

Does anybody think anything good to come out of this?

Because what Hollywood is saying with, with lumen is lumen presents this idea that's kind of benign, like, hey, you can separate your work life from your home life.

Isn't that cool?

And a lot of people be like, yeah, I definitely want to do that.

And it turns out they may torture you, spoiler alert.

Or they may do all kinds of experiments on you.

They may use this in ways that are really immoral, and it may not be good for you anyway in Mickey 17.

And the idea is immortality, because we can upload your consciousness and if your physical form dies, we can recreate a new human body, bring your consciousness back, and you go, yeah, I kind of want to live forever.

I kind of want immortality, except for what a corporation does is they start calling you expendables.

Where?

Well, now your job is to be immortal, to do all the dangerous jobs.

You're going to die probably several times a month.

We'll just keep reprinting you and, enjoy immortality.

Where you're dying all the time.

And probably really painful ways.

And five minutes after signing that contract, you're gone.

How do I get out of this?

This is terrible.

So that's why I think it's similar.

Patrick, I think what Hollywood is telling you is at least the creators of these shows are not optimistic about where technology is leading us and where corporations will lead us when they get their hands on that technology.

Is anybody on this panel more, like Mona?

Are you optimistic about where tech is going to take us in terms of how we treat each other, if our lives are going to be better?

Are you an optimist in any way about that?

Hello.

My my idea of the future was formed by Skynet.

What?

Your what?

Your mark.

What year?

Terminator two is 1982.

See?

Look at 80.

That's right.

That's close.

Wait wait wait.

When was the first Terminator?

I don't I think it's somewhere in the 80s.

Probably 89 or somewhere.

I bet you it's earlier than 89.

That could be your first flub.

We're going to we're going to.

It's in the 80s.

That was anyway Skynet.

Not very.

Skynet is what I.

That's what the future.

That's what I learned.

The future was going to be like.

And I think I've been shaped by that ever since.

I mean, it's not there.

They don't have utopian style movies.

They have dystopian style movies on purpose.

And I don't know if it's to desensitize us to what's coming or is it to help us?

Oh, see, it's not as bad as what the movies said it was going to be, but, I mean, Skynet is coming to life.

I mean, I it starts with GPT, and then all of a sudden, you know, there's a cop who's got a metal skin on.

I read, let's see.

You're very optimistic.

Very, very.

Now, I'm a cynic by nature.

So, you know, I think, who knows?

I think technology has its place, but we're doomed.

humanity or humanity dooms it.

Humans doom it, not the technology.

All right, Paul, you want to jump in first?

Go ahead.

Paul.

Well, they make the humans make the technology, and I'm scared to death of it.

All right, so that's that's all I got to say about it.

But you're not an optimist.

I'll be dead and gone.

I'll be dead and gone by the time I should have applied by French.

Oh, we got through most of the show that need the dump button.

I know, I know, I think we got there, Robert.

We got.

Okay.

Scott, Lucas, I apologize.

That's a see.

Paul is not performing.

Paul is who he is.

Whereas I never curse.

So this is who I am.

I've never Kirsten connection because I never curse.

And you don't want to know.

You don't want to know me, Paul.

I've got a feeling.

I got a feeling I know it, Scott.

Yeah, it's a bad one.

Scott.

Are you an optimist?

That future technology will bring about a better society?

I probably watch too many movies and shows too, because the theme of every one of those is that things go horribly wrong.

So I probably pessimistic on that just by the sheer amount of pop culture I've consumed about that fair, although Angela says even Hollywood's not going to make a show about how AI and technology makes the world better.

Fair, fair.

Okay.

Fair enough.

And Charles says, Evan, I love the concept.

I love the premise of the show severance.

I just retired after 45 years of work, the last 31 as an teacher.

And if I could have left that job and forget it for 16 hours, I would have signed up in a second.

Any teacher I know puts in a long day is no less than 10 to 12 hours a day to stay on top of things Sundays.

Forget it.

That's a work day for a teacher.

Teaching is never off your mind.

You read the paper, you wonder if you can use an article in class.

You catch NPR, you steal an idea.

You're on the internet searching for ideas and materials.

In the summer I worked summer school and I loved it because the annoying little tasks in regular school are tossed aside.

And yes, I miss my colleagues.

And yes, I really miss the kids.

But I do not miss the job.

I've got my life back.

No more 5 a.m. alarms.

That's from Charlie, who is loving retirement.

So Charlie Gratulations.

There you go, Charlie.

You earned it.

But Charlie never severed.

See, Charlie was never severed.

It was always putting the kids first, putting in the work.

So there you go.

That's great stuff, Charlie.

All school.

That's all that is.

Old school.

That's it, that's it.

Hey.

All right, so as we get ready to wrap up here, Paul, what are the odds that, severance is coming back to Utica?

I don't know, I got to call Grace and see if there is something else, because I may do a repeat here.

I hope so, and if I do, I will let you all know.

You come down and, finish the set.

Paul, you get Christopher Walken and Ben Stiller on this show.

John Turturro now we're now we're really cooking with gas.

See what you can do.

I can't thank you enough.

I can't thank you enough for having me on.

I'm very flattered.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, that was really fun.

That's Paul Buckley, film commissioner for film Utica, which was, host to severance, a part of episode nine of this past season that just wrapped last week.

Scott pukes.

Big fan.

I'm a big fan of you.

You're a big fan of severance communications director for the Little Theater.

I'm also a big fan of the Little Theater.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Never severed Mona Esler, executive office administrator for.

And I thank you for bringing the wisdom.

hey, that was fun.

Yeah, it was great.

That was a great for me.

Thanks, man.

And listeners, thank you.

Viewers on YouTube.

Thank you for watching.

Thanks for being with us.

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