Laura: Marcus, Jonathan, Kelly… thank  you so much for joining me today.

I   really appreciate your time.

Marcus: Thanks for having us.

Jonathan: Thanks.

Kelly: Thank you.

Laura: So, we've all been watching the big  fires in California.

We've all got smoky skies.

I'm curious, can we start with you  Marcus?

Can you talk a little bit about   what life is like for a wildland firefighter?

Marcus: Sure.

I would say, you know, first of all,   it's a very sort of satisfying and fulfilling  career, because a lot of people that do it like   to be outside, like to help their neighbors.

It's a public service that I think a lot of us   feel satisfied of doing at the end of the day.

But, really, the reality is that we're starting   to face now with a potential climate change, I  would say, increased fire seasons, more complex,   longer duration.

We're really starting to see,  I would say, firefighters in a crisis mode and   this crisis mode is due to attrition.

We have less  firefighters on the ground at our federal levels,   because the pay and benefits are not adequate.

Folks are asked to basically have these year-round   fire seasons where we're committed to go  help across the country.

So, I would say   we're really kind of approaching a train wreck  in a serious issue where firefighters are tired.

They're kind of challenged mentally  and physically and it's really   starting to enter a crisis mode I would say.

Laura: So, recently I saw an ad for wildland   firefighters that said the jobs paid 15 an hour  and I understand that's a little bit of a bump,   a Biden era bump, but one, is that enough  to live on and two, my understanding   is these are considered seasonal jobs.

Marcus: So, that fifteen dollars an hour   is roughly for entry-level jobs, which as you  said just recently bumped up.

So, before that   it was anywhere from thirteen to fourteen, 14 an  hour depending where you're at in the country.

And these are all temporary, 1039 positions, is  what they're considered which have zero benefits   except for medical care.

And the medical care  they have to pay for, it gets subsidized by the   federal government during their employment.

But,  as soon as the winter and they they're laid off   after six months they have to pay the full price.

So, no retirement.

No opportunity to, you know,   contribute to any kind of 401k.

Basically  zero benefits.

So, when the fire season's over   and this is the bulk of our federal firefighters  or really these temporary employees they're the   ones that make up three quarters of our hot shots.

They're the ones that make up three quarters of   our Helitack and smoke jumpers.

As soon as the  season's over, they basically have no ability   to access mental health care benefits to  reach out for any kind of long-term physical   issues they're having.

You know, once they're  laid off and if their fire family's not there   to support them they have no benefits.

So, it's a  tough position we put these temporary employees in   and many of them live in their cars because they  can't afford the housing around where they work.

So, places, you know, in the mountains,  these mountain towns that have very expensive   places to live that don't have crew quarters.

Basically, these kids are living in their cars   to go and fight wildland fire across the  country which is, it's hard to say and   hard to think about, but I've been there.

You know, I did 11 years as a seasonal and   I look back and just kind of like unbelievable.

Laura: Yeah, Kelly Martin, you worked as a   wildland firefighter for 35 years for the forest  service and for the bureau of land management   and I was wondering if you could talk a little  bit about this sort of long-term immersion in   emergency situations, which is different from  what we see sort of municipal firefighters or   even police officers wildland firefighters  are dealing with something very different.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely.

Thanks laura and just  for clarification I spent half my career with the   forest service and half with the national park  service and didn't work for the BLM, but worked   with them quite a bit throughout my career.

The  immersion that we're seeing now is way completely   different than when I started 35 years ago.

I  might have gained maybe 400 hours of overtime   during a summer season and now we're seeing people  regularly working a thousand fifteen hundred and   I think I've even heard that there's people out  there that are almost working like 2,000 hours   of overtime a year.

So, this constant  immersion in an emergency mode   is really having a tremendous impact on people's  mental health and well-being, to say nothing   of their physical well-being, as well when  they're exposed to tremendous amounts of smoke,   lots of risks and dangers with traveling  on really rough, rugged back country roads,   vehicle accidents are always an issue.

Falling snags, burnovers so that idea   that individuals are now in this almost 24-7,  year after year, we've really started seeing it   accelerate in 2000 and now for 2001. it's without  a doubt that's how people are living their lives,   whereas in municipal fire departments a fire  station might get a call, there are four minutes   in route to the emergency and they have the  emergency stabilized within about an hour,   an hour and a half.

That's simply just  not the case for wildland firefighters.

We are in it 24-7, week after week, month after  month.

And now we're talking year after year.

So, it really is significantly different.

The  environment that we're asking people to work in   is significantly, very hard on people  physically, mentally and emotionally and   that's really what we have to address, right?

Laura: So, earlier this year a firefighter Tim   Hart was killed due to injuries he sustained on  a fire here in New Mexico and after his death I   remember seeing a gofundme campaign to help his  family dealing with the expenses, due to his   hospitalization and I just remember thinking, he  was a federal employee working on a federal fire.

What kinds of… how are firefighters taken  care of when they sustain injuries or   unfortunate accidents like this?

Marcus: So that's kind of the reality   of the situation.

there's an organization that was  started roughly 20 years ago called the wildland   firefighter foundation and really that  organization was the catalyst and it's all   charity donations, from, basically, wildland  firefighters supporting each other.

So, I would   say recently land management agencies have started  to do a better job.

I would give credit there,   but I would say starting to and we're seeing  where they're not being able to cover,   you know, these gofundme and the wildland  firefighter foundation cover Tim's family to be   able to travel down, be able to cover mortgage and  bills when he's in a tough position in a hospital,   any of our firefighters be able to help  the family make it through, because these   families that we have, basically, depend on  us being firefighters and us going and working   and being away from home for six months out  of the year.

So, as soon as that money's gone,   there's no, there's no base.

There's no help for the family.

So,   long-term sort of medical care, I know the  wildland firefighter foundation has bought   wheelchairs, has helped rehab and the reality of  why we need this is our OWCP program, the office   of workmen's comp, is broken.

We have firefighters  struggling.

They get injured on the job,   struggling year after year to basically just  survive these catastrophic incidents.

They have   with mountains of paperwork very little help from  the federal government and basically it's easier   to just get outside donations to make it through.

LAURA: Jonathan, you were a wildland firefighter   for over a decade.

I'm wondering if you could  talk a little bit about some of the private   struggles that wildland firefighters are going  through, that, you know, we and the public just   have no idea these things are happening.

Jonathon: Yeah.

Thanks again for the opportunity   to be here.

Some of the private struggles that  you know I went through and I know my friends have   gone through are just the isolation that you feel  on the separation you have from your friends from   your families back home, the events that you miss  out on, birthdays, weddings, graduations.

I even   know of, you know, husbands and partners that were  on, I was on fire with while their wife delivered   you know their children.

You miss out on  these significant moments and, you know,   when it comes time to lay down at night  and try to get some sleep, you know, you   think about these things and it really begins  to weigh on you.

What am I missing out on, you   know?

What am I doing here?

I know, when I started  to have a family with my wife it just became no   longer sustainable for us or realistic for us to,  but, you know, potentially move our whole family   across the country in order for me to chase a,  you know, promotional opportunity to effectively   actually have more responsibility and be gone a  lot more.

And so, you know, when that goes on,   you know, it becomes a real struggle and sometimes  we're able to successfully bury or suppress those   memories, but you know, it comes out in the  winter time.

People turn to alcohol or drugs.

We've lost, you know, partners and friends to  suicide from it all and so it's a real problem   within the community that frankly  isn't, I think, talked about enough   and or addressed as best as it could be.

Laura: So, I think the public, you know,   we very much have this perception of wildland  firefighters, when our communities are at risk,   you know, people go out there with signs and  want to bake cookies and drop off water and   are so grateful when you all arrive, but it really  feels to me that there is this disconnect between   what we the public think you all are going through  and what is actually happening.

And, I'm curious   how are you supported by these federal agencies  that we all pay taxes to and are, you know,   imagining that you're being supported?

Is their  support for things like depression or PTSD   or anxiety or helping address this work  life balance that seems to be a problem?

Marcus: I would say those are catchwords that  the agency, different agency leadership have   thrown out there, work, work-life balance,  but the reality Laura is that these programs   are anemic at best and so I would be remiss  to say that there's no help.

We do have   help networks, but I myself have tried to look  into them.

Like, for me, as a first responder,   to seek help on a particular kind of issue, like  there's no counselors in my area that specialize   in that that are within that program.

And I  think that's the thing that a lot of people have   faced with, it's very difficult to find mental  health help on there.

It's very difficult to   go through the program and really you only get  like five to seven visits and then it's on you,   so a very weak support network and like I  was saying with the temporary employees,   as soon as they're laid off they basically  have no access to this.

So when you're in   that transition time, like Johnny's talking about,  into the season you go away from your fire family,   now you're turning to alcohol and drugs, to hit  those voids you're very angry with the world.

I   would say it's really kind of when I see these  war movies of people coming back from Vietnam   or war and trying to like reintegrate  into society that's really what people   go through on a yearly cyclical basis of  being totally immersed in a war type setting   away from all your support network.

And  then you come back to try to integrate   and so I would say it's very poor and I think it's  a known issue and folks are working on it but at a   very slow rate.

To really make a significant  change, I would say we need more money.

We need better programs.

We need more support.

Laura: So, speaking of change, I'd like to talk   a little bit about climate change.

Let's start with you, Kelly.

Fires   35 years ago compared with the fires  we're seeing now, how has climate change   affected the fire season and the wildland  firefighters who have to deal with fire season?

Kelly: Think about the environment that we're  working in now and how different that was when   I first started.

So, climate change is certainly  a contributing factor, especially when we look at,   you know, significantly higher temperatures longer  fire seasons so we can actually measure that,   so we know that that's actually occurring.

The  other thing that's occurring is this unnatural   fuel buildup, if you can imagine from one moment  the Western United States was very void of people   about 150 years ago, so quote, unquote the good  fire, the friendly fire was allowed to play its   natural role on the landscape for millennia  and here we come and we occupy the west   at tremendous numbers.

California used to have  1.5 million people in 1900 and now they're up to   40 million, so we're seeing this play out where  not only is climate change adding to these large   megafires but we're also seeing the unnatural  field build up, because of the suppression of   wildfires on the landscape which is increasing the  fuel loading in the vegetation and also increasing   the insect disease and drought susceptibility  to trees that are on the landscape and adding to   the population explosion.

So it's really putting  our firefighters in a really untenable situation   especially these last 24 months this  is really should portend to all of us   what the years are going to look like in the years  to come and we cannot keep operating under the   same antiquated system that we developed 50 years  ago.

So we're really in need of a transformation   of our wildland fire workforce and what that looks  like going forward is going to be, should be very   different than when I first started so those  are the things that are really contributing to   what we're seeing now with these  with these large wildfires.

Laura: So, speaking of transformation, Jonathan  as part of your volunteer work for grassroots   wildland firefighters, you're looking at how  some policy changes and legislative fixes can   make things better for this workforce.

Let's  start with congress.

What could congress be   doing and then maybe what are some of the policy  changes that federal agencies might implement?

Marcus: So this year we're seeing actually  alignment between both the administration and   congress and really beginning to address  the needs of wildland firefighters and   everything that's happening out west, you know,  we're seeing with the infrastructure package   that there is language and provisions in there  that will begin to address, you know, a salary   increase as well as classification for wildland  firefighters to no longer be forestry technicians   but actual wildland firefighters.

But really,  some of the lesser-known things that are in there   begin with like a foothold if you will on  beginning to address mental health issues,   which we were just talking about recently  and that's in the infrastructure package,   you know.

This is just a, you know, kind of a nice  secondary step to the administration's increase   with the 15 an hour starting wage, we need  to take more steps.

Congress should be   working with the land management agencies to   provide them the funds that they need to, you  know, help to fund the kind of land management   and ecosystem management that begins to address  the current reality and the future conditions   much like Kelly was talking about, because that's  directly related to our firefighters working   conditions their health and their well-being.

I  mean, a salary increase is nice but to have these   policy changes and have Congress working  hand-in-hand with the land management agencies   to begin to build the 21st century civilian,  you know, civil service that America deserves   is really what needs to be done.

I mean  there's a lot of steps that need to be taken,   fire suppression is just one chunk of it, but you  know actually setting realistic in land management   targets is a whole other part of it as well.

Laura: So it sounds like Congress is thinking   about some of these issues.

I'm curious from  each of you, what you wish your congressional   delegation truly understood about the conditions  and the need for this sort of professionalization   of this workforce you want.

To start, Marcus.

Marcus: Sure.

I think the message for me is that   we're headed for a train wreck Laura and this is  a train wreck of what Kelly was talking about,   increasing fire size and complexity.

You know, the Cerro Grande fire when it   happened in 2000 was a huge fire for  New Mexico.

It was the biggest fire   in the books and now that thing's been  dwarfed many times over with Las Conchas,   Whitewater, Baldy, you name it.

And we're  just waiting for the next one essentially,   so our workload is increasing.

We're having a  hard time filling jobs in remote duty locations   and part of this is paying benefits.

You know,  10-15 years ago we would have four or 500   applicants for an entry-level fire job.

On some of  the crews I worked on now, we're lucky if we see   50.

So, with those kind of numbers, we're headed  to a train wreck where one time there's going to   be a town here in New Mexico that's going to call  for federal assistance, federal help and guess   what nobody's going to show up, because that fire,  local fire engine is not staffed, the incident   management team doesn't have team members on it  to actually come and address a huge catastrophic   wildfire.

So, we're headed to a train wreck and  really we need to work on how we start piecing   that together like Johnny was talking about.

We  really need to ask the question what do we want   this wildland fire service to look like in 10, 20,  30 years when we know there's not a question of a   doubt that this is going to continue on and it's  unsustainable.

So, how are we going to address   classifying them as wildland firefighters?

How are  we going to get them the right mental and physical   help to be healthy really tactical athletes which  is what they are throughout the summer season   and for me a big part of this honestly is maybe  trying to think outside the box, because as Kelly   mentioned, this box was built 50, 60 years  ago in a very different environment.

I'd say   both environmentally, politically, culturally  and that box is not sustainable.

So, maybe it's   a national fire service where we get rid of some  of these redundancies.

We make a more efficient   system.

We kind of like take some of the  politics out of it hopefully and really   give the American taxpayer what they deserve,  an efficient professional wildland fire service   that's going to be there when they call for that  emergency and those are things I'd like to see.

Laura: How about you Kelly?

Kelly:   I really think that there's a real, there  has to be a real recognition by the public   and the taxpayers that this current system that  we're talking about, again built 50 years ago,   is unsustainable.

There is no more capacity  in our current system for salaries,   for additional people, and so we are going to have  to go to the American people and the taxpayers and   ask for more money, not just for suppression but  for land management.

And it's not just the federal   government.

We really need to partner with the  states.

There's a lot of areas out there that are   going to need infrastructure development to deal  with not just logs on trucks but also with the   excessive fuel buildup and creating a demand  for this natural resource that we call biomass,   which is a lot of vegetation on the  landscape.

So, developing that locally,   I think, is is a real key and having a partnership  between state governments and federal governments   to address this issue on a long-term basis again  25 to 50 years out.

10 years isn't going to cut   it.

We really have to think this is a long game.

This is long term and we need some real novel   ideas and visions about what healthy  landscapes look like, because right now   we are losing so much carbon stock  on the landscape to these large fires   and people need to know we cannot keep suppressing  fires in perpetuity.

We have to be progressive   with applying good fire on the landscape  as well and where we can use that biomass   to really support local communities and I think  we can really put local people, youth to work   on the landscape for healthier, more resilient  landscapes, because of climate change, increasing   fire seasons and expanding population base.

So,  I think there's really good opportunities for   a lot of, if there's the political will and  there's the social will to do this, not only   the will but the demand really has to come from  the people, the constituents of all the states,   to say, you know we want to see this partnership  between the forest service and the federal   government and our state governments to actually  work on our behalf, so that we have healthy   landscapes for our kids and our grand grandkids.

Laura: And Jonathan, what about you?

What do you   wish the congressional delegation would better  understand about what you all need and what's at   risk if these changes aren't implemented?

Jonathan: Right.

So, I guess I would hope   that it's impressed upon them that this  isn't a regional or any one-state issue.

This is a national issue.

You're feeling the  impacts from smoke, from these wildfires,   all the way, you know the nation's capital  and it's degrading their quality and it's,   you know, subjecting sensitive populations  to more risk from the degraded air quality.

You know, the other thing that comes to mind is  that if we lose our capacity to manage our lands,   we also lose our capacity to do other things  like protect critical watersheds that, you know,   countless cities, towns, municipalities depend on.

We lose the ability to, you know, harvest timber,   to build infrastructure, to rebuild towns and  cities and so really it's becoming just a large   issue that doesn't belong to any one state.

It's not a California issue.

It's not a New   Mexico issue.

I mean, it's really a whole a  national issue and I guess what I'd like to see   is Congress, you know, appropriate and authorize  more funding to the land management agencies to   expand the workforce needed to obtain, attain  these land management targets that they set,   you know, maybe think outside of the box like  Kelly and Marcus were talking about and offer,   like, land management scholarships or  tuition assistance for you know college   students who study in certain fields and want  to develop or devote some of their time rather   to land management issues.

So, I think that  there are creative ways that we could expand   our workforce and really focus on these issues and  I just hope that Congress is paying attention to   the land management agencies and also  their constituents and the states   that are impacted by all of this.

Laura: So we're talking about like   trying to envision something different, thinking  outside the box.

There are other places that do   things differently and you were in Australia for  that really awful fire season in 2019 and learned   some lessons there I'm curious what you learned  about wildland firefighting in Australia that   that could be implemented here in the U.S., maybe.

Marcus: I think some of the things that I was kind   of really taking it back with you know  we have sort of similar systems that   intermingle easily with the way we structure  our incident management teams and our fires,   but I think they had the state of Victoria in  particular because they don't have a federal   system like us, so it's by state.

So we'll make  that clear and they have a large volunteer service   as well that works on a lot of their wildland fire  but for the state employees in particular they   really recognize they needed more flexibility,  you know, a known issue in our wildland   firefighters is really the lack of diversity  and the lack of representation by say women,   people of color, you name it.

And part of that  is really that that workforce flexibility.

So,   I saw in Australia, you know, here a standard  tour is 14 can be up to 21, used to be longer   and with travel days you could be away from home  for 21-30 days, even potentially there I saw a   mother with kids who was an incident commander,  a rather high-ranking incident commander would   come for five days and said I have to take care of  my kids on the weekends, would drive back to her   house, would be there three or four days and come  back for four or five days and it was really an   kind of eye-opening picture for me.

And you would  talk to our firefighters about that will never   work this or that and it's really those kind of  things where I think we need to really think, how   are we treating firefighters?

Why do we not have  many women like Kelly who advanced all the way?

You know, a lot of women want families and it's  very difficult for men or women to have families.

You saw that's why Jon got out and so we need to  think about how are we going to take care of that   employee as a whole and not just kind of use them  as temporary fodder that we feed to the system and   then kick them out, but how are we taking care  of that employee as a whole.

i think Australia   is really on to some of those things they pay some  increased stipend and on-call benefits which we   don't pay in the United States, so all of our  federal firefighters pretty much you're on call   unless you're on rest and relaxation for a couple  of days after a tour.

And that means you're on   unpaid call.

Your travel is restricted.

You  can't necessarily go and do certain things.

You have to be within a certain amount from your  firebase and we don't compensate anybody for any   of that which Australia does, which I thought,  well, that's a great idea.

You're compensating   people for that time.

Compensating people for  working in remote areas, because they were   facing the same thing that we're starting to  face, where they couldn't get folks, you know,   to live in their remote duty stations and so they  recognized, hey we probably need to compensate   those folks more so their families can have a  decent life out in a remote rural area.

And so,   there's novel ways out there if we kind of can  open our eyes and really think about those things.

Laura: Well thank you, all three of you, so  much for this conversation.

I have learned   so much and I really appreciate your  time and your energy on this topic.

Marcus: Thank you so much for having us, Laura.

I think this is an issue it's important to New   Mexico.

It's important to the United States  and I appreciate your time and interest.

Laura: Thanks.

See you guys.

Group: Thank you very much.