>>> ANOTHER HORRIBLE MASS SHOOTING.

WILL THE RESPONSE BE PREDICTABLE?

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!musiC@!!!musiC@!

>> JOINING US ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" THIS WEEK, JO INGLES, STATEHOUSE REPORTER FOR OHIO PUBLIC RADIO, DER REC CLAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, AND TERRY CASEY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST.

THE UNIMAGINABLE HAS BECOME ROUTINE, EVEN THE MOST HORRIFIC KIND OF MASS SHOOTING HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

THIS WEEK UVALDE MASSACRE OF 19 LITTLE KIDS AND TWO TEACHERS WAS ONLY THE SECOND WORST SCHOOL SHOOTING IN U.S. HISTORY.

SANDY HOOK, OF COURSE, TEN YEARS AGO WAS WORSE.

LIKE IN 2012, WE'RE SEEING THE HEART ACHE, THE DEMAND FOR TIGHTER GUN LAWS, CALLS FOR MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT AND CALLS FOR ARMING SCHOOL TEACHERS.

HERE IN OHIO, OUR HEARTS ACHE FOR THE VICTIMS AS STATE LAWMAKERS CONTINUE TO LOOSEN GUN LAWS SAYING THE SECOND AMENDMENT ALLOWS FOR NOTHING LESS.

TERRY CASEY, I LOOKED AT OUR ARCHIVES.

TEN YEARS AGO YOU ON THIS PROGRAM RIGHT AFTER SANDY HOOK.

WE COULD HAVE REPLAYED THAT SHOW AND JUST SUBSTITUTED SANDY HOOK FOR UVALDE.

WHAT'S CHANGED?

>> THERE'S THE ADDITION OF BACKGROUND CHECKS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY IRRITATES ME, AND I TAKE THIS KIND OF PERSONAL HAVING TWO GRANDSONS AGED 9 AND 11 AND THE AGE OF THOSE KIDS.

IT'S OKAY FOR 18, 19, AND 20-YEAR-OLDS SO BUY SO-CALLED LONG GUNS, INCLUDING RIFLES LIKE THAT GUY WHAT HAD KILLER BULLETS LIKE THAT, BUT THEN PISTOLS YOU HAVE TO BE 21 OR OLDER.

CLEARLY ONE OF THE ISSUES IS ABOUT YOUNG MALE MINDS AND HOW THEY AREN'T DEVELOPED WELL.

SO THERE IS SOME TALK.

THE GOVERNOR INTERESTINGLY TODAY MADE SOME COMMENTS.

HE WANTS TO FOCUS ON WHAT HE CAN GET ACCOMPLISHED.

SOME OF THOSE WOULD BE GOOD.

IT DOESN'T SOLVE THE WHOLE THING, BUT CLEARLY THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE, INCLUDING SOME REPUBLICANS LIKE THE OTHER TEXAS SENATOR SAYING HE'S WILLING TO WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATS.

MAYBE WE'LL GET PROGRESS, MAYBE WE WON'T.

>> GOVERNOR DeWINE KNOWING HIS PLAN FOR INCREASED MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES IN SCHOOLS.

SAID WE MADE GREAT PROGRESS.

HAVE WE?

>> NOT AT ALL.

WE HAVEN'T MADE GOOD PROGRESS AT ALL.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THIS IS THE 212th MASS SHOOTING IN OUR COUNTRY IN 144 DAYS IN JUST THIS YEAR ALONE, AND THEN THIS IS THE 27th SCHOOL SHOOTING IN THIS COUNTRY, WE GOT A PROBLEM.

WE GOT A REAL PROBLEM.

AND WE HAVE NOT MADE PROGRESS.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE CONCEAL CARRY RESOLUTION THAT WAS PASSED, NOW ANYBODY CAN JUST -- IF YOU HAVE A HANDGUN, LEGALLY YOU CAN JUST CARRY IT.

THAT'S NOT PROGRESS.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THE DAYTON SHOOTING HAPPENED, THE GOVERNOR SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO TAKE SOME PROACTIVE MEASURES, BUT THIS LEGISLATURE HAS BEEN AGAINST HIM, AND I THINK QUITE HONESTLY THAT'S THE REASON WHY YOU HAVEN'T SEEN MUCH BEING DONE BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE WON'T LET HIM.

>> HE WANTS TO INCREASE FUNDING FOR SCHOOL SECURITY AND MENTAL HEALTH.

THE STATE HAS INCREASED FUNDING FOR MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES, SO I THINK PERHAPS THAT'S WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

BUT AS FAR AS PROGRESS ON SCHOOL, STOPPING SHOOTINGS, WE HAVEN'T MADE PROGRESS AS A SOCIETY.

DID HE MENTION TIGHTER GUN LAWS?

>> NOT SPECIFICALLY, NO.

HE KEPT SAYING OVER AND OVER I HAVE TO PUT IDEAS OUT THERE THAT THIS LEGISLATURE WILL PASS.

I HAVE TO BE REALISTIC.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS LEGISLATURE IS NOT LIKELY TO PASS ANY MORE GUN LAWS THAT WOULD DO ANY KIND OF BIG RESTRICTIONS.

YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT THESE MASS SHOOTINGS AND IT'S -- A LOT OF THESE AR15 GUNS THAT ARE BEING USED USE LARGE MAGAZINES.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT SEEING ANYTHING IN THE LEGISLATURE THAT WOULD DO ANYTHING TO CURTAIL THAT.

>> YOU MENTIONED IN CONGRESS THERE IS SOME TALK OF A BIPARTISAN PLAN, NEGOTIATIONS FOR MODEST RESTRICTIONS ON GUNS, INCREASED RESTRICTIONS ON GUNS.

DO YOU SEE ANY OF THAT HAPPENING AT THE OHIO STATEHOUSE?

>> PART OF IT YOU GOT TO RETHINK THE COALITION, SENATOR DOLE MADE A GOOD COMMENT.

TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE OFF IN THEIR CORNERS OF ONE EXTREME OR THE OTHER EXTREME.

BUT THERE'S SOME THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE, AND PEOPLE FORGET THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE TYPE OF THING BECAUSE WE'VE HAD MACHINE GUNS OUTLAWED FOR DECADES AND DECADES.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT CHILDREN, THE LEADING KILLER OF CHILDREN NOW IS GUNS, WITH THE WEAPONS, PARTICULARLY THE CALIBER OF BULLETS YOU HAVE, THIS IS NOT THE OLD DAYS OF THE .22 CALIBER TYPE OF RIFLE THAT ARE INJURE.

BUT THESE BULLETS TODAY, THE GUNS TODAY ARE HIGHER VELOCITY AND MUCH MORE DANGEROUS.

>> WHEN YOU LISTEN TO FOLKS, WE HEAR IT EVERY TIME.

THERE ARE FOLKS ON THE GUN RIGHTS SIDE WHO ARE ABSOLUTEISTS WHO SAY THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, AND THEY FORGET THE WELL-REGULATED MILITIA PART.

BUT THE SECOND PART TRUMPS THE FIRST PART.

>> EVEN DURING TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION, THEY OUTLAWED THE BUMP STOCKS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BAN ON ASSAULT WEAPONS ORIGINALLY, THEY CREATED CERTAIN SPECIFICS SAYING THESE ARE ILLEGAL, BUT LAWYERS AND GUN PEOPLE AND OTHER PEOPLE FIGURE OUT WHAT WASN'T PROHIBITED.

IN LOOKING AT THAT TAPE, LAURA MADE THE POINT EVEN ON WHAT SENATOR FEINSTEIN WAS GOING TO PROPOSE.

THERE WERE 900 DIFFERENT EXCEPTIONS.

SO LEGALLY IT'S NOT EASY, BUT I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW CAN YOU TIGHTEN IT DOWN.

>> I WAS ASKED WHEN THE TIPPING POINT IS.

AFTER SANDY HOOK WE THOUGHT THAT WAS IT AND NOTHING HAPPENED.

IS IT A TIPPING POINT, DERRICK?

DO VOTERS WHO WANT GUN REGULATION VOTE THAT WAY AND FORCE THESE CHANGES?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY DIFFERENCE IN WHAT WE'VE SEEN.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME MOMENTS OF SILENCE, SOME PRAYERS, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT FOR A WEEK OR SO, AND IT'S GOING TO BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE INTRODUCED 19 PLUS BILLS, PRO-GUN BILLS IN THIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

AND MOST OF THESE ARE JUST EGREGIOUS BILLS, YOU KNOW.

SECOND AMENDMENT SAFE HAVEN HOUSE BILL 62.

AND I'M NOT AGAINST RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE HAVING GUNS.

I'M A GUN OWNER.

BUT WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, WHEN YOU'RE NOT PUTTING IN SAFEGUARDS FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE MENTAL ILLNESS ISSUES TO BE DEALT WITH, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE SAME SITUATION HAPPEN OVER AND OVER.

>> DEMOCRATS, TWO LEADING DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES, THEY HAVE TO RUN IN THE MIDDLE IN THIS STATE TO GET ANY CHANCE OF WINNING A STATEWIDE OFFICE.

JO, CAN THEY BE STRONG FOR GUN REGULATIONS?

OR DO THEY HAVE TO SORT OF AVOID THE ISSUE?

CAN THEY BE REALLY STRONG?

>> I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT GUNS, PEOPLE BELIEVE DIFFERENT THINGS, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE DIFFERENT PIECES OF LEGISLATION.

THE VERY POPULAR PIECES OF LEGISLATION WHERE YOU'RE GETTING 80% TO 90% OF THE PEOPLE SAYING, YEAH, WE LIKE THAT, I THINK THEY CAN TAKE THAT ON.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY GOT TO ALSO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE PERCEIVED AS BEING TOO HAWKISH.

>> IF WHALEY PROPOSES GUN RESTRICTIONS, SHE'LL BE ACCUSED BY SOME OF WANTING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS AWAY AND THAT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO BEAT MIKE DeWINE IF THAT'S A LABEL ON YOU.

>> RIGHT BUT LONGER TERM I'M MORE OPTIMISTIC THAN DEREK BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY SUBURBAN MOTHERS, GRANDMOTHERS, OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT THAT WAY AND ALSO A KEY STATE LEGISLATOR SUGGESTED TO ME, YES, THERE'S NRA PEOPLE, BUT THERE'S ALSO SPORTSMEN AND SPORTSWOMEN WHO UNDERSTAND ABOUT GUN SAFETY AND REALIZE SOME PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO HAVE EVERYTHING THEY THINK, PARTICULARLY, AGAIN, THAT 18 TO 21.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE A RECORD YET, BUT YET THEY NEED TO BE EXAMINED CLOSELY BEFORE THEY HAVE ANY SUCH RIGHTS OR USE OF THOSE EQUIPMENT.

>> POLLS SHOW AN OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF GUN OWNERS SUPPORT UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS AND TAKING GUNS AWAY FROM FOLKS WHO ARE MENTALLY ILL.

ANYWAY, OUR NEXT TOPIC, THE FIGHT OVER REDISTRICTING COULD BE OVER, AT LEAST FOR NOW.

THIS WEEKEND MARKS THE DEADLINE PUT DOWN BY A FEDERAL COURT FOR THE OHIO REDISTRICTING COMMISSION TO COME UP WITH STATE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICT MAPS THAT SATISFY THE OHIO SUPREME COURT.

THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

FOR THE FIFTH TIME, THE COURT REJECTED MAPS FOR HOUSE AND SENATE DISTRICTS, THAT'S BECAUSE THEY BASICALLY WERE THE SAME AS THE THIRD SETS OF MAPS REJECTED IN MARCH.

THOSE ARE THE MAPS THE FEDERAL COURT INDICATES IT'S WILLING TO ACCEPT, SO VOTERS CAN CHOOSE LAWMAKERS IN AN YOU SAYING PRIMARY.

I'M ASSUMING THIS DEADLINE COMES AND THE FEDERAL COURT SAYS WE'RE GOING WITH THE THIRD MAP.

WHAT DO DEMOCRATS DO NOW?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S ASSUMING THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, RIGHT?

IN WHICH WE ALL THINK THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> ARE YOU HOPEFUL THE FEDERAL COURT WILL RETHINK THIS PLAN TO TAKE THE THIRD MAP?

>> WELL, YOU GOT TO BE CAREFUL WITH THAT BECAUSE I THINK THAT THAT SETS A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT IF YOU GOT THE FEDERAL SUPREME COURT INVOLVED IN STATE MATTERS, FOR ONE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS MAP HAS BEEN STRUCK DOWN FOR THE FIFTH TIME BECAUSE IT'S NOT FAIR.

AND IF IT'S NOT FAIR, IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO GET STRUCK DOWN.

THERE WAS A VERY CLEAR MANDATE FROM THE VOTERS IN THIS STATE BOTH IN 2015 AND 2018 TO HAVE A COMMISSION THAT'S GOING TO DRAW FAIR MAPS THAT REPRESENT THE VOTERS OF OHIO.

AND THAT'S JUST NOT HAPPENED.

THAT'S WHY IT'S BEEN SMACKED DOWN FIVE TIMES.

>> TERRY?

>> I DISAGREE WITH DEREK ON A COUPLE POINTS.

NUMBER ONE, THE FEDERAL JUDGES GOT IN ON THIS BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT SAID WHEN THERE'S THE RISK OF NOT HAVING AFFLICTIONS A TIMELY MANNER, THE SIXTH CIRCUIT JUDGES NEED TO ACT.

AND NUMBER TWO, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT GONE TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT AND SAID, WAIT A MINUTE, THESE THREE JUDGES ARE OUT OF LINE, YOU GOT TO STOP THEM.

THEY HAVEN'T APPEALED WHAT THEY ANNOUNCED THEY WERE GOING TO DO MORE THAN A MONTH AGO.

IT'S CLEAR WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN PROBABLY ON SATURDAY.

THE ONLY QUESTION HANGING OUT THERE IS LEGALLY WHETHER SOMEBODY'S GOING TO APPEAL AND SAY WE NEED TO HAVE A NEW FILING DEADLINE REOPENED BECAUSE BETWEEN PLAN 2 THEY FILED ON FEBRUARY 2nd AND THE THIRD PLAN THAT WAS APPROVED, THOSE DISTRICTS ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

THERE'S DIFFERENCES IN FILINGS AND SOME PEOPLE MIGHT WANT TO REFILE.

>> IF I COULD JUST REBUT THAT REAL QUICK, THE REPUBLICANS HAVEN'T TRIED SINCE MAY 5th TO GET A NEW MAP PASSED.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SPENT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN THIS STATE BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DRAGGED THEIR FEET ON THIS ISSUE.

THEY HAD A YEAR PLUS BEFORE THIS DEADLINE -- THE FIRST DEADLINE WAS EVEN DUE TO HAVE ADEQUATE HEARINGS AROUND THE STATE.

THEY DID NOT DO THAT.

SO THAT'S WHERE WE ARE NOW.

BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DRAGGED THEIR FEET, NOW WE'RE AT THIS POINT WHERE THIS MAP HAS BEEN STRUCK DOWN FIVE ENZYMES IN THE LATEST RULING, JO, THE JUSTICE ACCUSED THE DEMOCRATS OF HIJACKING THE PROCESS.

PRETTY HARSH WORDS.

BUT O'CONNOR -- THE COURT DIDN'T TAKE THE STEP OF HOLDING THE COMMISSION IN CONTEMPT.

SHE SAID THE LAW DOESN'T ALLOW IT.

BUT WE WERE WAITING TO SEE IF THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> YEAH.

AND SHE SAID IT DIDN'T ALLOW IT AND THAT'S HER INTERPRETATION.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE MOVE ON FROM THERE.

I THINK THE ONE THING WE NEED TO REMEMBER HERE IS THE ISSUES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AT THIS VERY TABLE RIGHT NOW, GUN CONTROL.

YOU KNOW, WE GOT OTHER ISSUES IN THE STATE, ABORTION, FOR EXAMPLE.

MOST PEOPLE ARE IN THAT MIDDLE SOMEWHERE.

THEY REALLY ARE NOT THESE EXTREMES.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT OUR LEGISLATURE AND YOU LOOK AT WHAT GETS PASSED, WHAT GOES THROUGH, IT IS EITHER FAR TO THE LEFT OR FAR TO THE RIGHT -- ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT FAR TO THE LEFT.

>> NOT TOO MANY LEFT THINGS PASS THESE DAYS.

>> IT'S FAR TO THE RIGHT OF WHERE PEOPLE ARE.

AND I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED IS WITH REDISTRICTING, THE REASON IT WAS PASSED IN THE FIRST PLACE WAS PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY DIDN'T HAVE A VOICE IN GOVERNMENT, AND NOW THIS PROCESS HAS JUST SOLIDIFIED THAT THOUGHT.

>> TERRY, THE LATEST MAP SPLITS -- ON PAPER SPLITS THE STATE 54% REPUBLICAN, 46% DEMOCRAT.

BUT THE TOSSUP DISTRICTS ARE ALL DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS.

SO WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO THIS MAP?

DOES IT REFLECT THE WILL OF THE VOTERS?

>> PART OF THE PROBLEM, OHIO IS MORE POLARIZED GEOGRAPHICALLY, AND PEOPLE SAID WE DON'T WANT SNAKE ON THE LAKE DISTRICTS THAT ARE TWISTING AND TURNING.

AND PART OF WHAT'S IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT SOME PEOPLE FORGET, THE FIRST PRIORITY IS KEEPING COUNTIES AND COMMUNITIES WHOLE, AND IT'S VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO COMPACTNESS IN COMMUNITIES AND COMPETITIVENESS.

OHIO IS A CHALLENGING STATE.

NOW, THE GOOD NEWS, ON THE STATE LEGISLATIVE MAPS, THE FEDERAL COURTS SAID IT'S ONLY GOOD FOR ONE ELECTION CYCLE, 2022.

SO GOOD OR BAD, THIS ISSUE IS NOT GOING FOR ANOTHER TEN YEARS OR EIGHT YEARS.

>> CANDIDATES HAVE BEEN ON STANDBY, NOT KNOWING WHO TO ASK FOR THEM.

THEY HAVE A GOOD IDEA, BUT EXACTLY DOWN THE EDGES OF THE DISTRICTS.

PARTICULARLY DEMOCRATS TRYING TO GET BACK INTO POWER IN THE STATEHOUSE, HOW DO THEY RUN CAMPAIGNS?

>> A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY OUT THERE WITH THE DISTRICT LINES RIGHT NOW.

AS YOU SAID, CANDIDATES JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE THE LINES ARE GOING TO FALL.

THERE'S SOME IDEA, BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS REDISTRICTING COMMISSION COULD COME BACK AND THEY COULD DRAW TOTALLY DIFFERENT LINES THAT WILL CAUSE EVEN MORE CHAOS.

ONE THING THAT I DID WANT TO REFUTE WITH TERRY, LET'S NOT FORGET THE SNAKE ON THE LAKE WAS WRITTEN BY A REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE BACK THEN, AND ZIGS THAT'S WHY THEY PUT IN THE SMIMT THINGS TO SAY PRIORITIES OF KEEPING COUNTIES AND COMMUNITIES WHOLE.

LIKE ON THE CONGRESSIONAL PLAN, ALL THE MAJOR CITIES IN OHIO ARE KEPT WHOLE ALL WITHIN ONE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

THE ONE EXCEPTION IS COLUMBUS.

>> VOTERS WERE CALLED ON TO COME UP WITH A NEW SYSTEM A TRULY INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

MICHIGAN HAS ONE, IF IT CAN BE TRULY INDEPENDENT.

BUT IT'S MORE INDEPENDENT THAN WHAT WE HAVE AND ANYONE IN NEW YORK HAS BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE THERE, DEMOCRATS IN NEW YORK CAN TRUMP THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

IS THERE ANY MOVEMENT YET TO TRY TO GET THAT BALL ROLLING TO GET IT ON THE BALLOT, PERHAPS AS EARLY AS 2024?

>> THERE'S BEEN TALK ABOUT IT BEHIND THE SCENES, BUT IS THERE A PROPOSAL?

NO.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE GOOD GOVERNMENT FOLKS OF THE GROUPS THAT BROUGHT THIS TO THE FOREFRONT TO BEGIN WITH, THEY'RE KIND OF HOLDING BACK AND SEEING WHERE THIS ALL, YOU KNOW, KIND OF SETTLES BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL OUT THERE TRYING TO DO WHAT THEY CAN IN THIS SITUATION.

AS YOU POINTED OUT, HE GOT THE -- HE GOT THE DRAW NEW MAPS.

THEY'RE TREADING THE LINE TO GET I DIDN'T WANT ON THAT AND THEN THEY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE.

>> STATE LEGISLATORS SOMETIMES HOLD TWO JOBS.

MANY STATE REPS AND SENATORS ARE ATTORNEYS, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT IT'S RARE FOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE HOLDERS TO HOLD JOBS OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR JOHN HOUSTON TOOK A SECOND JOB, ALBEIT A VERY PART-TIME ONE.

HEARTLAND BANK NAMED HIM AS A MEMBER OF ITS BOARD OF DIRECTORS, A POSITION FOR WHICH IT WILL PAY HOUSTON.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH, BUT THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR SAYS THERE'S NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T OVERSEE BANK ISSUES.

HE SAYS IT WILL GIVE HIM BETTER PERSPECTIVE ON THE INDUSTRY.

IS THIS A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR SITTING ON THE BOARD OF A BANK?

>> WELL, APPARENTLY IT'S LEGAL PER THE ETHICS COMMISSION, WHICH IS ONE TEST.

OBVIOUSLY IF HE WAS ON THE BANK OF WHAT I CALL A BIG BANK LIKE HUNTINGTON OR CHASE, THAT WOULD BE HARDER TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY.

BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS EVERYONE KNOWS HE'S NOW ON THAT.

THE ATTORNEYS AT THE BANK ARE GOING TO BE WATCHING OUT IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT MIGHT POTENTIALLY BE A CONFLICT, AND NEEDLESS TO SAY THE MEDIA AND THE PUBLIC I'M SURE ARE GOING TO JUMP ON AND POINT OUT IF THERE'S ANYTHING.

BUT THAT PARTICULAR BANK IS PRETTY MUCH OF A SMALL BANK THAT DEALS MAINLY WITH SMALL BUSINESS.

IT'S MORE OF A TRUE COMMUNITY BANK.

SO IS IT PERFECT, IS IT IDEAL?

PEOPLE CAN DEBATE THAT.

BUT AT LEAST IT'S LEGAL AND EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE WATCHING IT LIKE A HAWK.

>> DEREK, IT IS DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE IN OHIO THAT REGULATES BANKS.

THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR'S OTHER DUTIES ARE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT AND ALSO INNOVATIVE OHIO.

SO HE'S NOT OVERSEEING THE BANKS.

SO WHAT'S THE HARM THERE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT -- APPARENTLY IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE ETHICS -- I DON'T THINK THAT HE SO YOU GO TO THE ETHICS COMMISSION'S RULING ON THAT?

BUT IT'S NOT ILLEGAL AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE.

LISTEN, EVERYBODY OUT HERE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A BANK BOARD POSITION.

I KNOW I WOULD.

BUT THE REALITY OF IT IS, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A HIGH-PROFILE POSITION THAT THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IS IN, HE'S GOING TO BE WATCHED.

IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.

>> JO, WHAT'S THE TALK AT THE STATEHOUSE.

WERE THEY SURPRISED BY THIS?

>> DEPENDS ON WHOSE SURPRISE.

I THINK IN GENERAL, NO, NOT TERRIBLY SURPRISED.

BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, DEREK BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT.

YOU KNOW, IT JUST HAS BAD OPTICS BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, THE GOVERNOR TO BE SERVING THEM.

AND IF THEY THINK THAT THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IS SERVING SOMEONE ELSE TOO, IT ADDS ONE MORE LAYER OF DISTRUST, WHICH, BELIEVE ME, WE ALL SEE THERE'S PLENTY OF DISTRUST IN GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW.

>> WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH HE'S GOING TO GET PAID.

SO MY GUESS -- IT'S NOT LIKE BEING ON THE CHASE BOARD.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY.

IS THIS WORTH IT POLITICALLY?

>> THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR MAKES THE ARGUMENT THIS PUTS HIM A LITTLE MORE IN TOUCH WITH CONSUMERS, SMALL BUSINESS, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE BUSINESS CYCLE BECAUSE THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE NO IDEA WHAT GOES ON IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WHETHER IT'S RUNNING A RESTAURANT, RUNNING A HARDWARE STORE.

IN SOME WAYS, WE COULD USE MORE PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT WHO UNDERSTAND THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND VICE VERSA.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, AGAIN, THE GOOD NEWS IS EVERYONE KNOWS AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE WATCHING, INCLUDING THE BANK PEOPLE, BECAUSE PEOPLE THAT ARE ON BOARDS LIKE THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY BOARD, I KNOW SOME OF THEM, TRUSTEES, THEY HIRE ATTORNEYS TO GO OVER THE AGENDA AND MAKE SURE THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING WHERE THERE'S A CONFLICT.

SO I THINK WITH ALL OF THE ATTENTION AND KNOWLEDGE OF IT, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

>> IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN A HARDWARE STORE, THEY'RE ALL HIRING, $15 AN HOUR.

>> BUT IT'S GOOD TO TALK TO THE OWNER OF THE HARDWARE STORE AND KNOW WHAT PEOPLE SAY WHEN YOU TRY AND HIRE THEY WANT.

AND THEN WHEN THEY RESIGN, WE CAN LEARN.

>>> EDUCATORS SAY YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO READ AND THEN READ TO LEARN.

THAT'S WHY FORMER GOVERNOR JOHN KASICH AND OTHERS ENACTED THE THIRD GRADE READING GUARANTEE TO ENSURE ALL STUDENTS COULD READ PROFICIENTLY BY THE END OF THIRD GRADE.

IF THEY CANNOT, TEACHERS CAN HOLD THEM BACK.

NOW LAWMAKERS ARE CONSIDERING GETTING RID OF THE THIRD GRADE GUARANTEE.

EDUCATORS AND SCHOOL PSYCHOLOGISTS SAY HOLDING STUDENTS BACK HURTS LEARNING, CREATES A STIGMA, AND THAT COULD, THEY FEAR, LEAD TO DROPPING OUT OF SCHOOL.

TEN YEARS, JO INGLES, HAS IT NOT BEEN SUCCESSFUL?

IS THAT THE THE BOTTOM LINE WHY THEY'RE GETTING RID OF IT?

>> THERE'S BEEN NO MEANINGFUL CHANGE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS, IT HASN'T MADE MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST COUPLE YEARS, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT PEOPLE KNOW THAT THAT HAS BEEN THE TEETH OF THAT, IT'S BEEN PUT ON HOLD.

DURING THE PANDEMIC THEY DIDN'T HOLD KIDS BACK WHO DIDN'T PERFORM.

BUT RIGHT NOW WE'RE SEEING -- WHEN YOU SEE WHERE KIDS ARE PERFORMING ON TESTS IN GENERAL, NOT JUST READING, THEY'RE NOT DOING AS WELL RIGHT NOW.

THIS PANDEMIC HAS REALLY HURT A LOT OF KIDS, AND SO WHAT THE IDEA IS BEHIND DROPPING THIS IS TO STILL ASSESS THE KIDS, FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY'RE HAVING PROBLEMS, BUT THEN GET TUTORS, GET PEOPLE WHO CAN HELP THEM.

INSTEAD OF PENALIZING THEM AND HOLDING THEM BACK, WHICH SOCIALLY COUNSELORS WILL TELL YOU THAT'S A BAD IDEA, INSTEAD OF THAT, LET THEM GO AHEAD, BUT MAKE SURE THEY HAVE WHAT THEY NEED TO SUCCEED.

>> DEREK, OF ALL EDUCATION REFORMS THAT COME UP, THIS ONE REALLY WAS SORT OF INVOLVED THE FAMILY.

THEY HAD SKIN IN THE GAME HERE.

I MEAN, YOU REMEMBER.

YOU WERE SCARED TO DEATH OF GETTING HELD BACK.

WE'RE STILL SCARED OF GETTING HELD BACK.

THAT WAS WHAT THE TEACHERS USED TO GET YOU TO GET THAT LAST ASSIGNMENT IN.

SO THE STUDENTS AND PARENTS HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME TO MAKE SURE THEY WERE DOING THE WORK AT HOME.

NOW THAT STICK IS GONE.

DOES THAT HURT THE EFFORT TO GET THIRD GRADERS READING WHERE THEY SHOULD BE?

>> ABSOLUTELY IT DOES.

WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE A GOOD FAMILY ENVIRONMENT AND THEN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT YOU MAY BE IN MAY OR MAY NOT BE GOOD, THOSE ARE TWO MAJOR STIGMAS YOU GET JUST GOING OFF THE BAT, NOT INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, THE STUDENT DOING THEIR OWN TO TRY TO READ BY THIRD GRADE.

YOU KNOW, WE HAD 39,000 STUDENTS IN OHIO THAT HAVE BEEN HELD BACK SINCE THIS THIRD GRADE GUARANTEE WAS IN PLACE SINCE 2014.

IN SOME WAYS, YOU COULD LOOK AT IT AS DISCRIMINATORY.

IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT A -- I'M NOT GOING TO CALL OUT SCHOOL DISTRICTS, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT ONE SCHOOL DISTRICT THAT HAS A VERY HIGH RATE OF SUCCESS AND THEN YOU LOOK AT ANOTHER INNER CITY SCHOOL DISTRICT THAT DOESN'T, THAT'S NOT FAIR.

>> THE AFFLUENT DISTRICTS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE RURAL SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

WHICH IS THE WORSE, THE STIGMA OF BEING HELD BACK OR NOT BEING ABLE TO READ AT THIRD GRADE PROFICIENCY.

>> THE REAL PROBLEM IS LONG TERM.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE READING PROFICIENCY BY THE THIRD GRADE, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO SUCCEED LATER ON IN SCHOOL AND IN LIFE?

AND THEN THAT REALLY GETS COSTLY.

I THINK THIS OUGHT TO BE A WAKE-UP CALL TO LOOK AT WHAT WAS LOST BECAUSE, AS WE WERE SURVIVING THROUGH COVID, WE KNEW THERE WAS A PROBLEM, BUT NOW IT'S BEEN MORE DOCUMENTED THAT THIS IS REALLY A BIG PROBLEM.

AND I THINK IT TAKES SOME SPECIAL EFFORTS TO FOCUS ON HELPING THE KIDS THAT GOT HELD BACK LEARNING WISE.

>> EDUCATION REFORM EFFORTS COME AND GO.

IF THEY DISAPPEAR AFTER, YOU KNOW, FIVE, TEN YEARS, YOU KNOW, IS IT WORTH THE REFORM?

THE STUDENTS WHO ARE INVOLVED, THE TEACHERS INVOLVED MAY HAVE BEEN HARMED BY THE REFORM EFFORT, SO WHAT'S THE SOLUTION TO CHANGING THE SYSTEM?

>> OH, BOY.

YOU'RE GOING TO ASK THAT AND EXPECT A ONE-MINUTE ANSWER, MIKE?

COME ON.

THE THING IS YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY COME AND GO AND, YOU KNOW, YOU SEE A LOT OF THESE THINGS THAT SOUND GOOD UP FRONT, BUT THEY DON'T WORK OUT ON PAPER.

SO I THINK WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS BASICALLY EVERYONE INVOLVED IN EDUCATION NEEDS TO GET TOGETHER AT A TABLE AND TALK IT OUT, FIGURE OUT A PLAN THAT DOES WORK.

BUT THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN OUR GOVERNMENT OFTEN ENOUGH.

>> REAL QUICK?

>> >> THERE'S A QUICK SOLUTION.

JUST ALLOW KIDS TO PICK THEIR PARENTS AND PICK WISELY AND REQUIRE PARENTS TO BE INVOLVED AND BE GOOD PARENTS.

OF COURSE IT'S HARD TO PASS THAT LAW.

>> ENFORCE DECISION.

>> EQUITABLE FUNDING EDUCATION.

>> ALL RIGHT, TIME FOR OUR PARTING SHOTS.

TERRY KAERKS WE START WITH YOU.

>> THE VOTERS IN COLUMBUS ARE GOING TO FACE AN INCREASE IN SCHOOL PROPERTY TAX, BUT THIS IS THE SAME SCHOOL DISTRICT THAT GOT NEARLY $500 MILLION IN COVID SPECIAL MONEY AND ALREADY HAD TO BEGIN WITH $1 BILLION BUDGET AND THEY GOT ALL THE EMPTY SCHOOLS SO I THINK SOME SERIOUS QUESTIONS ARE GOING TO COME AT THE COLUMBUS SCHOOLS?

>> >> NEW SKYSCRAPERS COMING TO DOWNTOWN COLUMBUS, THE MERCHANT BUILDING WILL BE A $300 MILLION, 32-STORY BUILDING THAT'S GOING TO HOUSE, YOU KNOW, HOTELS, DINING, RESIDENCES AND IT'S GOING TO SAY CHANGE THE LANDSCAPE OF DOWNTOWN.

>> JO?

>> WHAT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE OF AND WE NEED TO SEE MORE OF IS LIBRARIANS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN EDUCATION REALLY POINTING OUT TO KIDS THINGS THAT INTEREST THEM AND TRYING TO TAILOR CUSTOMIZED EDUCATION TO KIDS.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK WE WILL SEE MORE OF AND IT PROBABLY WILL BE MORE -- I DON'T KNOW.

MAYBE IT'S NOT, BUT IT'S A BETTER SHOT IN THE DARK THAN SOME THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN TALKED ABOUT IN THE PAST.

>> WE LEAVE WHERE WE STARTED OFF, A TERRIBLE SCHOOL SHOOTING.

THEY KEEP HAPPENING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

SO WHATEVER WE'RE DOING NOW AIN'T WORKING.

HOPEFULLY THIS ONE PROMPTS POSITIVE CHANGE.

THAT IS "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

PLEASE CHECK US OUT ONLINE ON FACEBOOK AND YOU CAN WATCH EACH ONE OF THESE EPISODES ON DEMAND.

YOU CAN SEE THEM AT OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.ORG, OR ON THE PBS TV APP.

FOR OUR CREW AND FOR OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.