[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK IN OUR WOMAN THOUGHT LEADERS SERIES, WE ARE HONORED TO HAVE AS OUR GUEST, NINA McBRIDE, HEAD OF AMERICAN UNIVERSITY'S INSTITUTE ON FIRST LADIES; AND FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF FOR FIRST LADY, LAURA BUSH.

WILL COME TO YOU, ANITA.

>> Anita McBride: THANK YOU SO MUCH, BONNIE.

I AM THRILLED TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU FOR GIVING US AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE THE EXCITING NEWS OF A NEW RESEARCH AND EDUCATION ASSOCIATION CALLED FLAIRS, WHICH STANDS FOR FIRST LADY'S ASSOCIATION FOR RESEARCH AND EDUCATION, AND REMARKABLY IS THE FIRST PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION THAT HAS EVER BEEN ESTABLISHED TO BRING TOGETHER SCHOLARS AND THOSE WHO HAVE FOLLOWED AND ARE INTERESTED IN WRITING THE LEGACIES OF AMERICA'S FIRST LADIES.

SO IT IS HOUSE THAT AMERICA AND THE UNIVERSITY AS PART OF THE FIRST LADY'S INITIATIVE IN THE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS, BECAUSE AT AU, WHO'S ALREADY INVESTED 10 YEARS OF SUPPORT BEHIND THE FIRST LADY'S INITIATIVE, FELT THAT THIS WAS AN EXTENSION OF THAT RESEARCH AND THE NEEDED COLLABORATION TO BRING MORE SCHOLARS, MORE INTERESTED PARTIES, MORE EDUCATION AROUND THESE WOMEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHOSE STORIES DESERVE TO BE TOLD.

>> Bonnie Erbe: NOW, FIRST LADIES HAVE BEEN ENORMOUSLY INFLUENTIAL IN MANY CASES.

BUT IT'S ALWAYS BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED TO THE PRESIDENT.

THEY ARE NOT THE PRESIDENT, >> Anita McBride: SURE.> Bonnie Erbe: YOU THINK THAT THAT -- IS THAT CHANGING?

ARE THEY MORE INFLUENTIAL THAN THEY USED TO BE?

>> Anita McBride: WELL, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION, AND IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE REALLY DO HOPE TO PEEL BACK THE LAYERS FOR PEOPLE, TO UNDERSTAND.

FOR STUDENTS AND FOR OTHER INTERESTED PARTIES TO LOOK AT THIS ROLE AND SAY, THROUGHOUT HISTORY, WHERE HAVE THESE WOMEN USED THIS PLATFORM ON ELECTED, WE UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT IT'S NEVERTHELESS, IT'S A POWERFUL PLATFORM.

AND HOW HAVE THEY USED IT?

HOW HAVE THEY DRIVEN CHANGE?

WHERE HAVE THEY MADE AN IMPACT?

WHAT ARE THEIR LEGACIES ON POLITICS OR ON PUBLIC POLICY WERE IN GLOBAL DIPLOMACY?

BECAUSE THEY ALSO REPRESENT US, REPRESENT OUR COUNTRY OVERSEAS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TELL ME ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL, LET'S SAY, THE FIVE MOST INFLUENTIAL FIRST LADY THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

>> Anita McBride: SURE.

WELL, YOU KNOW, IT IS IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, TO REMEMBER, OF COURSE, AND WE RECOGNIZE FIRST LADIES ARE NOT ELECTED OFFICIALS, BUT THEY AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A POWERFUL PLATFORM.

AND THE DECISION THEY HAVE TO MAKE IS HOW THEY USE IT.

AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY, YOU KNOW, WE CAN LOOK STARTING WITH OUR FIRST FIRST LADY, MARTHA WASHINGTON REALLY DID -- SHE HAD THE BURDEN OF SETTING PRECEDENT IN TWO WAYS: HOW WOULD SHE CONVEY TO A NEW NATION, NEW REPUBLICAN, THE AMERICAN CITIZENS THAT THIS NEW FORM OF GOVERNMENT WAS AN ACCESSIBLE FORM OF GOVERNMENT YET STILL CONVEY TO WORLD POWERS WHO WERE LOOKING TO SEE WHETHER THIS NEW NATION WOULD SURVIVE THAT THE STATURE OF ITS LEADERS AND THE WAY THE COUNTRY WOULD CONDUCT ITSELF WAS VIABLE?

AND SO, YOU KNOW, SHE SOUGHT OUT TO CREATE THE SERIES, YOU KNOW, OF DISCUSSIONS OR SALONS, AS THEY WERE CALLED, IN THE HOME OF THE NEW CAPITOL OF THE NEW NATION IN NEW YORK.

IT WASN'T AN IMPORTANT GESTURE, BECAUSE THEY WERE MEETING WITH AVERAGE AMERICANS, YET ALSO BRINGING TO THEIR -- TO THE NEW CAPITOL WORLD, WORLD LEADERS ARE WORLD POWERS.

THE OTHER -- YOU KNOW, YOU SKIP AHEAD TO, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE LIKE MRS. LINCOLN.

VERY DIFFICULT, TRAGIC FIGURE, OF COURSE, IN OUR HISTORY, YET REALLY HAD A PROFOUND IMPACT TOO DURING THE TIMES IN WHICH SHE LIVED, IN SUPPORTING HER HUSBAND WHO STRUGGLED TO MAINTAIN THE UNION.

AND THAT WAS REALLY, OF COURSE, PIVOTAL TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

MOVE AHEAD TO PEOPLE LIKE ELEANOR ROOSEVELT.

YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT FIRST LADIES WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT ELEANOR ROOSEVELT WHO REALLY CATAPULTED THE POSITION INTO AN EXTREMELY ACTIVIST ROLE AND DID THINGS THAT WERE REALLY UNHEARD OF AT THE TIME.

SHE ONLY BROUGHT FEMALE REPORTERS INTO THE WHITE HOUSE TO MEET WITH HER AND SHARE INFORMATION.

SHE WROTE A DAILY NEWSPAPER COLUMN.

SHE HAD A WEEKLY RADIO ADDRESS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE ON SUNDAY EVENINGS.

IN FACT, HERS IS THE FIRST VOICE AMERICANS HEARD ON THE NIGHT OF DECEMBER 7, 1941 AT THE BOMBING OF PEARL HARBOR.

OF COURSE, THERE WAS A STATEMENT THAT PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT HAD RELEASED, BUT HE DID NOT SPEAK PUBLICLY UNTIL THE NEXT DAY.

AND THEN OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, MOVING FORWARD, LOOK AT PEOPLE LIKE BETTY FORD.

BETTY FORD HAD A DRAMATIC IMPACT ON THIS NATION.

SHE ALSO, IN PURSUING AND SUPPORTING PUBLICLY THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT, WHICH IS EXACTLY SOMETHING HER HUSBAND'S ADMINISTRATION DID NOT WANT HER TO DO WHAT SHE BELIEVED IN EQUAL RIGHTS, SHE CHAMPION IT, SHE MADE CALLS TO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, I MEAN, SHE WASN'T IN THE EFFECTIVE LOBBYIST.

AND THEN ALSO USED DRAMATICALLY I THINK EVEN ON A SCALE OF SAVING PEOPLE'S LIVES, MORE IMPORTANTLY, USED TWO VERY DIFFICULT PERSONAL TRAGEDIES: BREAST CANCER AS WELL AS SUBSTANCE ABUSE AND ADDICTION, TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE AT HOME AND REALLY AROUND THE WORLD.

SO WE HAVE A LOT TO REALLY LOOK UP TO HER AS HER IMPORTANT INFLUENCE.

IF I CAN ADD ANOTHER ONE OF THAT ERA RIGHT BEFORE HER, LADY BIRD JOHNSON.

LADY BIRD JOHNSON WAS OUR NATION'S FIRST REALLY ENVIRONMENTAL FIRST LADY.

YOUR FIRST CONSERVATIONIST.

YOU KNOW, AND PEOPLE MAY SAY, OH SHE LOVED, YOU KNOW, FLOWERS AND BEAUTIFYING THE CITY.

BUT WHAT SHE REALLY WAS DOING WAS AMERICANS TAKING PRIDE AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE NATURAL LANDSCAPE, THE BEAUTY OF OUR NATION, PROTECTING IT, NOT LITTERING IT.

YOU KNOW, THE HIGHWAY BEAUTIFICATION ACT THAT PRESIDENT JOHNSON SIGNED IN THE MID '60s WAS REALLY A LOT OF IT WAS DUE TO HER ADVOCACY AND HER ALSO REALLY LOBBYING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

AND THEN OF COURSE MOVING INTO THE MODERN ERA, HILLARY CLINTON HAD AN ENORMOUS IMPACT ON THE ROLE.

HER HUSBAND HAD HANDED HER A MAJOR DOMESTIC POLICY INITIATIVE TO TRY AND SOLVE, AND THAT WAS HEALTHCARE.

BECAUSE SHE HAD THE BACK -- >> Bonnie Erbe: BUT WAS THAT A MISTAKE?

BECAUSE IN THE END, IT DID NOT WORK OUT, ALTHOUGH IT CERTAINLY SET PRESIDENT -- >> Anita McBride: RIGHT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: -- WHICH HELPED OBAMA AND HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI PUSH THAT LEGISLATION THROUGH MANY YEARS LATER.

>> Anita McBride: SO I THINK FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, BONNIE, IT'S NOT A MISTAKE.

IT IS A RISK AND A CHALLENGE AND I THINK HAD SHE GONE BACK TO DO THINGS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY, LITTLE MORE TRANSPARENCY IN THE MEETINGS, MORE PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE OF WHO WAS MEETING WITH HER, PERHAPS THAT MIGHT HAVE HAD A DIFFERENCE.

BUT YOU KNOW, WE WILL LOOK AT THIS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE THAT SHE -- SOMETIMES IN GOVERNMENT, YOU ARE MAKING INCREMENTAL CHANGE, TAKES A LONG TIME TO HAVE A REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE ON AN INTRACTABLE ISSUE.

SHE REALLY,REGARDLESS OF THE CHALLENGES AT THAT TIME, IT REALLY DID EXPOSE A DRASTIC NEED IN THE COUNTRY TO LOOK AT HEALTHCARE, AND SHE WAS WILLING TO DO IT.

I THINK FOR THE -- I DON'T THINK SHE REGRETS TAKING THAT ON.

SHE CERTAINLY WE WISHES IT HAD BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL, BUT SHE DID NOT FOLD UP HER HAT AND HAPPY ACTIVE AFTER THAT.

SHE PIVOTED TO ANOTHER AREA THAT DIDN'T HAVE DRAMATIC IMPACT THAT ACTUALLY DOES AND THAT'S ON GLOBAL WOMEN'S ISSUES.

IN BEIJING 1995, HE DREW CONTROVERSY -- IN COUNTRIES THAT SHE CHALLENGED, BUT SHE OPENED THE DOOR TO A SERIOUS DISCUSSION AND EXAMINATION OF THE TREATMENT OF WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD, WHERE REALLY THE VEIL HAD BEEN LIFTED OVER, YOU KNOW, THE PRACTICES THAT IN THE MODERN WORLD ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND SHE CERTAINLY USED THE CLINTON NAME, WHICH WAS HERS OF COURSE, BY MARRIAGE, TO -- AND HER HUSBAND'S CONNECTIONS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND FUNDRAISERS IN KNOWING DONORS WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO GIVE.

SHE USED ALL OF THAT LATER TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

>> Anita McBride: SURE, WHICH WAS A REMARKABLE, YOU KNOW, ACHIEVEMENT TOO.

BUT ALL OF THE SUPPORT THAT SHE EARNED FROM ALL OF THE SECTORS OF SOCIETY AND PEOPLE THAT YOU MENTION, SHE KNOWS, BECAUSE AT AN ANYBODY COULD LOOK AT NOT LOOK AT HILLARY CLINTON AND NOT SAY THAT THIS IS A HARD WORKER.

BUT SHE GOT TO THE SENATE, SHE WAS A VERY EFFECTIVE SENATOR FOR THE NEW YORK CAME IN AT A VERY DIFFICULT TIME, BASICALLY 911 AND, AND REALLY WAS A, YOU KNOW, A MAJOR INFLUENCE AND AND FACTOR AND GETTING THE SUPPORT THAT NEW YORK NEEDED.

SHE WAS WELL KNOWN FOR HAVING ONE OF THE BEST STAFFS IN THE SENATE.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS A REMARKABLE FIGURE IN OUR HISTORY.

THE FIRST LADY -- OF TWO FIRST LADIES REALLY HELD THE ROLE FOR US AS A STATE AND THEN ALSO ON THE NATIONAL OF AFFILIATES, GOOD SENATOR, TWO TIME PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, SECRETARY OF STATE.

A PRETTY POWERFUL EXAMPLE OF WOMEN'S LEADERSHIP.

AND I THINK FOR THOSE OF US WHO STUDY THE ROLE OF FIRST LADIES, WE CERTAINLY LOOK AT THE OPPORTUNITY THAT SHE HAD ON THE NATIONAL STAGE TO USE HER PODIUM AND LET, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SEE WHAT SHE CAN DO ON HER OWN BUT IN SUPPORT OF THE ADMINISTRATION, WAS IMPORTANT TO BUILD A REPUTATION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: NOW, YOU WERE CHIEF OF STAFF TO LAURA BUSH.

SHE WAS NOT AS OUT THERE AS FIRST LADY, AS HILLARY CLINTON.

TELL ME ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO.

>> Anita McBride: WELL, I WOULD ACTUALLY CHALLENGE YOU ON THAT.

I THINK THE FACT THAT LAURA BUSH WENT TO 77 COUNTRIES IN EIGHT YEARS, 15 TIMES TO AFRICA, SHE WAS THE LEAD ADVOCATE FOR THE PRESIDENT'S EMERGENCY PLAN FOR AIDS RELIEF, WHICH WAS THE HUGE AIDS INITIATIVE, IT WAS THE PRESIDENT'S INITIATIVE.

AND TOO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MRS. CLINTON DID AS FIRST LADY, THEY WERE PRESIDENTIAL INITIATIVES.

I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT.

YOU ARE NOT A POLICYMAKER IN THAT ROLE.

BUT YOU ARE A POLICY ADVOCATE.

AND YOU ARE THE CLOSEST PERSON TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHEN YOU SPEAK, PEOPLE LISTEN.

AND WHEN YOU TRAVEL OVERSEAS, THAT IS AS GOOD FOR AS MANY FOREIGN LEADERS AS HAVING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THERE, BECAUSE THERE IS NO CLOSER PERSON THAT CAN CONVEY THE MESSAGE OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRESIDENT'S SPOUSE.

SO HER ADVOCACY AND HER WORK ON PEPFAR, HER WORK ON AFGHAN WOMEN -- HILLARY CLINTON WILL TELL YOU THIS AND HILLARY CLINTON SAID THIS IN HER NOMINATION HEARING FOR SECRETARY OF STATE, THAT SHE WOULD CONTINUE THE WORK THAT LAURA BUSH LAUNCHED AS FIRST LADY IN SUPPORTING AFGHAN WOMEN THROUGH THE AFGHAN WOMEN'S COUNCIL.

AND TO THIS DAY, LAURA BUSH AND HILLARY CLINTON ARE THE COCHAIRS OF THE COUNCIL, 20 YEARS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING TOGETHER TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF WOMEN.

IT'S A CHALLENGE.

WE KNOW THAT.

BUT SHE DOES, LAURA BUSH WAS A THIS IS NOT A ONE AND DOWN.

IF YOU CARE ABOUT IT, YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP WORKING ON IT.

SO I THINK WITH THE CHALLENGE IS TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT ON A PERSON LIKE LAURA BUSH WHO MAY HAVE BEEN QUIETER IF SHE WAS NEVER THE LOUDEST WAS IN THE ROOM, BUT PEOPLE WHO KNOW HER AND KNOW HER WORK AND SEE WHAT THE IMPACT IS KNOW THAT SHE WAS ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE ADVOCATES OF VOICES IN THE ROOM.

AND PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE WILL TELL YOU THAT.

SHE TOOK SOMETHING ON AND SHE TOOK IT ON TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

AND WHETHER IT WAS GLOBALLY, YOU KNOW, DOMESTICALLY, LITERACY INITIATIVES TO THE LAURA BUSH FOUNDATION FOR AMERICA'S LIBRARY, STILL IN EXISTENCE, STILL GIVING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AWAY A YEAR TO IMPROVE LITERACY AND IMPROVE THE CONDITION OF OUR PUBLIC LIBRARIES IN SCHOOL LIBRARIES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO WOULD YOU SAY THE LIBRARIES, THE LITERACY ISSUE AND GLOBAL HEALTH, ESPECIALLY WITH REGARDS TO AIDS, SUPPLYING MEDICATIONS TO AIDS VICTIMS IN AFRICA, ARE THOSE ARE TWO BIGGEST POLICIES?

>> Anita McBride: LAURA BUSH USED EDUCATION AS A PLATFORM FOR EVERYTHING THAT SHE DID.

WHETHER IT WAS ESTABLISHING THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL HERE IN WASHINGTON D.C., ENCOURAGING READING, MORE READING AT AGES, AT ALL AGES, AND THAT'S AN INITIATIVE THAT STILL CONTINUES, THAT PARTNERSHIP WITH THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS IS NOW IN ITS SECOND DECADE.HERE IN WASHINGTON D.C. -- ALSO A WAY TO HELP IMPROVE WOMEN'S HEALTH, THE WAY BETTY FORD DID WITH BREAST CANCER OR LAURA BUSH DID WITH HEART DISEASE, THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH CAME TO HER, PROVIDED HER WITH A BRIEFING AND ALL THESE STATISTICS ON THE ALARMING RATE AND A REALLY UNACCEPTABLE RATE OF WOMEN'S HEART DISEASE THAT WAS GOING UNTREATED AND THE NUMBER OF WOMEN DYING FROM HEART DISEASE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND SHE CONSIDERED HERSELF A READ AND PRETTY EDUCATION WOMAN.

SHE SAID, IF I DON'T KNOW THIS, I THINK MOST WOMEN IN AMERICA DON'T KNOW THIS.

SO SHE WROTE ABOUT CHARGE AS FIRST LADY WOMEN'S HEART HEALTH EDUCATION AROUND HIV AIDS, REDUCING THE STIGMA GETTING ACCESS TO TO THE ANTIRETROVIRAL DRUGS, WHICH WERE WAS A BIG PART OF PEPFAR, OF COURSE, IN BRINGING THAT TO COUNTRIES AROUND AFRICA WHERE THAT CONTINENT WAS BEING DECIMATED.

THAT WAS PRESIDENT BUSH'S.

BUT LAURA BUSH HELPED TO BE THE EDUCATION ADVOCATE FOR THAT.

SHE ALSO WAS BOLD ENOUGH TO GO TO THE MIDDLE EAST TO SAUDI ARABIA TO TALK ABOUT BREAST CANCER.

THE WORD BREAST IS NOT MENTIONED PUBLICLY THERE.

BUT SHE MET WITH THE KING ABOUT ABOUT IT.

TO MEET WITH THE MINISTER OF HEALTH, THEY LAUNCHED A PARTNERSHIP WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT AROUND BREAST CANCER THAT WAS BROUGHT PLACES IN THE MIDDLE EAST TO EGYPT AND JORDAN AND THE UAE.

AND THEN ON THE ON THE AT HOME, ON EDUCATION AND LITERACY AND REFORM.

WITH AN ADVOCATE FOR IN TEXAS.

SHE WAS A LEADER ON ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES, I THINK, TO WHAT SHE DID TO OTHER FIRST LADY'S WHOSE WORK SHE ADMIRED AND HISTORIC PRESERVATION.

AND IN CONSERVATION, JOHNSON AND HILLARY CLINTON, HILLARY CLINTON LAUNCHED THE SAVE AMERICA'S TREASURES INITIATIVE AT THE EVE OF THE MILLENNIUM IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WHICH, WHICH WAS AN IMPORTANT INITIATIVE FOR AMERICANS REALLY TO TAKE CARE OF NOT ONLY THEIR SOME OF THE BRICK AND MORTAR STRUCTURES OF OUR HISTORY, BUT ALSO ARTIFACTS, LIKE THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER, WHICH UNDERWENT AN ENORMOUS RESTORATION FOR 10 YEARS WITH WITH PUBLIC PRIVATE PARTNERS.

BUT LAURA BUSH CONTINUED THAT INITIATIVE OF SAVE AMERICA'S TREASURES, AND ADDED ANOTHER INITIATIVE TO IT, WHICH WAS CALLED PRESERVE AMERICA WORKING WITH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO REALLY GIVE SUPPORT, MAYBE NOT ALL OF IT WAS FINANCIAL SUPPORT, BECAUSE AS AT SAVE AMERICA'S TREASURES, HAVE THE CONGRESSIONAL MONEY, BUT TO REALLY HELP BUILD AWARENESS AND PRIDE IN AMERICAN CITIZENS IN THEIR WORKING WITH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS TO REALLY BUILD AWARENESS AND PRIDE IN WHAT EACH OF THEIR COMMUNITIES HAD TO OFFER TO COUNTRY, AND JUST STANDING WITH MEMBERS OF EVERY YEAR GIVING AWARDS TO TO COMMUNITIES IN ALL 50 STATES ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING TO PRESERVE THEIR HISTORY WAS AN IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTION TO OUR NATION AS WELL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TWO MOST RECENT FIRST LADIES, WHO ARE OF COURSE JILL BIDEN AND MELANIA TRUMP.

FIRST OF ALL, TRUMP, DID SHE LEAVE A LEGACY OF ANYTHING?

DID SHE INFLUENCE PUBLIC POLICY> Anita McBride: WELL, I WOULD SAY -- I KNOW MRS. TRUMP AND I HAVE LEARNED TO LOOK AT THIS AS, YES, THIS IS A UNIQUE FIGURE IN OUR HISTORY AND IN THIS ROLE AND WHY.

WHY?

FIRST OF ALL, SHE, THE FIRST FIRST LADY -- OR THE SECOND FIRST LADY IN OUR HISTORY HE'S NOT BORN IN THIS COUNTRY, ONLY BEEN AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ABOUT 10 YEARS, NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN POLITICS, REALLY HAD NEVER BEEN ON A NATIONAL PUBLIC STAGE QUITE LIKE THIS.

WHAT I FELT SHE DID THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE OCCUPANTS OF THE ROLE, SHE MADE A PRETTY GROUNDBREAKING DECISION TO SAY I'M NOT MOVING TO WASHINGTON RIGHT AWAY, AND ESTABLISH A BIT OF A PRECEDENT BY DOING THAT, NOT FEELING THE PRESSURE TO BE TOLD I HAVE TO BE THERE ON JANUARY 20.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT IS IT MAYBE REMOVES THE BURDEN OF A FUTURE OCCUPANTS BE EVEN A MALE OCCUPANT OF THIS ROLE WHO MIGHT HAVE A JOB OUTSIDE THE HOME, NOT READY TO TAKE UP THE MANTLE RIGHT AWAY.

I JUST, YOU KNOW, I TRY TO BE FAIR AND LOOK AT WHAT CONTRIBUTIONS OR WHAT WAY ANY OCCUPANT NEW TO THE ROLE JUST CHANGES JUST CHANGES WERE DOES SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I THINK THE OTHER THING TOO IS IN TERMS OF HER, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC POLICY INITIATIVE THAT SHE WAS ENGAGED IN, IT'S REALLY HARD TO TELL IF THERE IS ANY RESULT FROM THAT.

I DID NOT SEE A GREAT DEAL OF PUBLIC EVENTS.

MAYBE THERE WAS, MAYBE THERE WASN'T COVERAGE OF IT.

I THINK IT WAS ALSO OFF THE MIND A LITTLE BIT THAT SHE TALK ABOUT CYBER BULLYING, AND THE BIGGEST BULLY IN THE COUNTRY WAS SITTING, YOU KNOW, IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

THAT'S HARD TO TRY AND BREAK THROUGH AND BE TAKEN SERIOUS.

I WILL SAY THERE'S ONE THING THAT SHE DID A MEMBER OF THE WHITE HOUSE HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION BOARD.

SO WE'VE WORKED WITH EVERY LADY SINCE JACKIE KENNEDY, WHO FOUNDED THIS ORGANIZATION THAT, YOU KNOW, PRIDE AND PROTECTION AND PRESERVATION OF THE WHITE HOUSE AS A MUSEUM.

AND SOMETHING SHE DID TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST IN, WAS BECAME VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE WHITE HOUSE, AND DID NOT DO WHAT PEOPLE FEARED THAT THE TURKS WOULD DO, YOU KNOW, MAKE DRAMATIC CHANGES IN THE, IN THE HOUSE, THEN SHE WAS AN ELEGANT HOSTESS OF, OF THE WHITE HOUSE, THE DR. BIDEN, NOW HERE WE GO, THAT POSITION CHANGES AGAIN, HERE IS SOMEONE WHO, YOU KNOW, VERY COMFORTABLY SAYS TEACHING IS NOT WHAT I DO, IT IS WHO I AM.

AND I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO TEACH.

SO WE WERE COMING UPON THIS TIME WERE A NEW OCCUPANT OF THIS ROLE MIGHT HAVE A JOB OUTSIDE OF THE HOME THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TRY AND KEEP DOING, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF WHO THEY ARE.

AND YOU CAN NEVER TALK ENOUGH ABOUT EDUCATION IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND MOST FIRST LADIES HAVE AND SOME WERE TEACHERS, LIKE LAURA BUSH.

BUT YOU ACTUALLY CONTINUE TEACHING IN THE CLASSROOM AND BALANCING THAT WITH THE DEMANDS THAT COME WITH THE ROLE OF FIRST LADY, YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY ADMIRABLE.

AND I THINK THAT AS WE COME OUT OF THIS PERIOD OF COVID NOW, AND THERE WILL BE MORE OF THIS AT THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN THEY ARE ABLE TO OPEN IT UP AND PERHAPS MORE TRAVEL, BOTH DOMESTICALLY, YOU KNOW, AND AROUND THE WORLD, TO ME IT APPEARS THAT, YOU KNOW, DR. BIDEN FOUND A WAY TO MATT BALANCE THIS WHEN SHE WAS SECONDLY, SOCIAL FIND A WAY TO BALANCE IT AS FIRST LADY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT ISN'T THAT A BIT OF A TRICKY BUSINESS?

BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT MAYBE A FIRST GENTLEMAN WANTING TO KEEP HIS OWN CAREER.

WHAT IF'S AND WALL STREET FINANCE?

WHAT IF HE A LAWYER?

KEEPING EVERYTHING HE DOES IN HIS ROLE AS FIRST GENTLEMAN AND IN BUSINESS IS GOING TO BE REALLY DIFFICULT, RIGHT?

>> Anita McBride: THAT'S CORRECT, YES, FOR SURE.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE CAME CLOSE TO THIS, RIGHT?

WE CAME CLOSE TO IN 2008 WHEN HILLARY CLINTON RAN FOR PRESIDENT.

AND HER HUSBAND -- AND THERE IS THE UNIQUE ASPECT: HE WAS ALSO A FORMER PRESIDENT.

SO WE WOULD REALLY BE, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO IDENTIFY HOW WAS HE GOING TO MANAGE HIS ROLE.

BECAUSE REMEMBER, HE WAS ALSO LEADING A MAJOR GLOBAL FOUNDATION NONPROFIT, THE CLINTON GLOBAL INITIATIVE AND CLINTON FOUNDATION.

AND I THINK HAD HE -- HAD HE BECOME THE SPOUSE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE CHALLENGE WOULD BE, AS YOU SUGGEST, BECAUSE THAT IS A BIT OF A BUSINESS.

YOU ARE RAISING MONEY, YOU'RE WORKING WITH FOREIGN LEADERS, YOU DON'T WANT TO GET OUT OF SYNC WITH WHAT THE GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, ACTUAL GOVERNMENT, U.S. GOVERNMENT POSITIONS ARE.

SO THAT'S A CHALLENGE FOR A WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL OFFICE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK, AND THERE MAY BE SOME THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO -- CANNOT DO.

BUT THERE WOULD BE SOME THINGS THAT YOU CAN.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT WAS INTERESTING.

WE CAME CLOSE TO TWICE, REALLY, IN THAT HAPPENING WITH THE CLINTONS.

AND NOW THE CLOSE TO'S EXAMPLE WE HAVE OF COURSE IS THE SECOND GENTLEMAN, WHO, BY ALL ACCOUNTS, IS VERY ACTIVE AND IS CONTINUING TO TEACH AS A PROFESSOR AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY.

ALSO CARVING OUT A SERIES OF INITIATIVES THAT SUPPORT THE ADMINISTRATION.

HE IS BECOMING THE ADVOCATE FOR, WHETHER IT'S VACCINES OR WHAT -- YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT IS IN TRIAL -- CHILD SEPARATIONS, THE ISSUES AROUND THE BORDER.

I MEAN, HE HAS BEEN OUT THERE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S GIVEN US A TASTE OF WHAT IT COULD BE.

AND I AM A FIRM BELIEVER THAT THIS POSITION ADAPTS TO ITS OCCUPANTS AND ITS OCCUPANTS ADAPT TO THE POSITION.

AND THAT IT REALLY CAN BE A GENDER-NEUTRAL ROLE IF THE ISSUE IS YOU HAVE A PLATFORM, HOW DO YOU CHOOSE TO USE IT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE'S LIVES AT HOME AND AROUND THE WORLD?

>> Bonnie Erbe: ANITA McBRIDE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THIS HAS BEEN SO ENLIGHTENING.

AND THANK YOU FOR LAUNCHING THE FIRST LADIES INITIATIVE AT AMERICAN UNIVERSITY, AND BEST OF LUCK TO YOU WITH THAT.

IT WILL BE SUCH AN IMPORTANT RESEARCH PLACE FOR SCHOLARS FOR THE NEXT MILLION YEARS TO COME.

>> Anita McBride: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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