>> Beth Allison Barr: I KNOW THAT BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD IS REALLY JUST PATRIARCHY.

AND HISTORICALLY IT'S NEVER BEEN GOOD FOR WOMEN AND IT'S TIME FOR ME TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THAT.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM A "TO THE CONTRARY".

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

THE DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK WE SPEAK WITH BETH ALLISON BARR ABOUT THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

HER NEW BOOK IS "THE MAKING OF BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD.".

IT POSES THE QUESTION, WHAT IS EVERYTHING WE THOUGHT WE KNEW ABOUT BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD WAS WRONG?

SO, BETH, I ASK YOU TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

>> Beth Allison Barr: HI.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

YES, INDEED.

WHAT I AM ARGUING IN THE BOOK IS THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE IDEA THAT WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SUBJECT TO MILL AUTHORITY WHICH IS WHAT IS TAUGHT IN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY, THAT IF WE ACTUALLY LOOK AT THAT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF HISTORY, WHAT WE FIND IS THAT RATHER THAN BE DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD, WHICH IS WHAT EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS CLAIM, THE BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD IS COUNTERCULTURAL, WE FIND THAT ACTUALLY ALL IT IS IS THE CHURCH ACTING JUST LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR MORE THAN 4000 YEARS.

BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD IS JUST PATRIARCHY.

IT IS NOT BIBLICAL.

SO THERE IS A SHORT ANSWER FOR YOU.

>> Bonnie: IF YOU COULD PULL OUT A FEW SENTENCES ABOUT THE MAIN POINT IF THE BOOK AND THEN WILL GET DOWN TO DETAILS ABOUT THE HISTORY AND HOW YOU REINTERPRET TEXT, THAT SORT OF THING.

>> Beth Allison Barr: SURE.

THE MAIN POINT OF THE BOOK IS REALLY HELP US UNDERSTAND THAT EVEN THOUGH WE THINK THAT WOMEN'S ROLES, THAT WHAT WOMEN ARE PRESCRIBED TO DO IN THE CHURCH, WHICH IS MOSTLY TO BE UNDER MY LEADERSHIP AND NOT TO BE PREACHERS AND TEACHERS AND LEADERS, ESPECIALLY AND EVEN IN SOME EVANGELICAL CHURCHES WHERE WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH ANYONE OLDER THAN CHILDREN AGE.

AND SO, THIS IDEA THAT MOST CHRISTIANS THINK IS ROOTED IN THE BIBLE, WE THINK IT'S ROOTED IN PAUL, WE THINK IT'S ROOTED IN THE GENESIS STORY.

MY ARGUMENT IS IT'S NOT ROOTED IN THE BIBLE.

IS ACTUALLY ROOTED IN HISTORY, AND THEN WE CARRY OUR HISTORICAL CULTURE TO THE BIBLICAL TEXT.

>> Bonnie: SO YOU ARE SAYING PAUL AND THE OTHER APOSTLES LIVED IN A WORLD OR DESCRIBED A CHRISTIAN WORLD WHERE WOMEN HAD EQUAL POWER EQUAL TO MEN?

>> Beth Allison Barr: WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE WORLD IN WHICH THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN WAS A PICTURE OF THE WORLD.

IN PATRIARCHY IS THE STORY OF HISTORY.

PATRIARCHY HAS BEEN WITH US FROM THE BEGINNING OF CIVILIZATION.

AND SO, WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING IN THE BIBLE IS ACTUALLY WHILE PATRIARCHY IS THE BACKGROUND NOISE TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE BIBLE, WE SEE A RESISTANCE NARRATIVE.

AND WE CAN ACTUALLY EVEN SEE THIS IN PAUL.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE FUNNY THINGS IS THAT INSTEAD OF READING THAT RESISTANCE NARRATIVE, WHAT CHRISTIANS OFTEN DO IS WE READ THAT BACKGROUND NOISE AS BEING GOSPEL TRUTH.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE FOCUS ON WHERE PAUL SAYS WOMEN BE SILENT AND WOMEN DO NOT TEACH.

INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON ROMANS 16, WHERE WE SEE WOMEN AS A POSSIBLE, AS DEACON, AS TEACHERS, AS HOUSE CHURCH LEADERS.

AND SO, IF WE LOOK AT THE VERSES FROM THE PERSPECTIVE ROMANS 16, WHAT WE WOULD FIND IS THAT PAUL CAN'T BE TELLING WOMEN TO BE SILENT BECAUSE HE GIVES THEM PERMISSION TO SPEAK, SOb&.

>> Bonnie: WELL, MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT BIBLICAL CHECKS, WHETHER THE OLD TESTAMENT OR THE NEW TESTAMENT, CAN REALLY BE INTERPRETED TO ADVANCE ANYBODY'S AGENDA.

THERE ARE HUGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE CULTURE AT THE TIME THAT THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW TESTAMENT WERE WRITTEN AND TODAY, AND THAT SCHOLARS CAN BASICALLY USE THAT TO GET THE BIBLE TO SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT IT TO SAY.

FOR EXAMPLE, I INTERVIEWED A PROFESSOR AT A CHRISTIAN UNIVERSITY FOR GAY PEOPLE IN SAN FRANCISCO A BUNCH OF YEARS AGO, AND SHE TOLD ME THAT THE PHRASE THAT'S USUALLY USED TO PROVE EVANGELICALS THAT GAYS ARE BANNED AND ARE SINNERS AND BLAH, BLAH, BLAH IS AT LEAST ONE OF THE PHRASES IN THE TEXT IS THAT MAN SHALL NOT LIE WITH MAN, THE WAY HE LIES WITH A WOMAN.

AND SHE SAID, IF YOU INTERPRET THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE TIME, WHAT IT REALLY MEANT -- IT WAS NOT A CONDEMNATION OF GAYS.

WHAT IT WAS SAYING IS THAT MEN SHOULD NOT TREATMENT LIKE THEY TREAT WOMEN, BECAUSE WOMEN WERE BASICALLY CHATTEL.

AND IT DIDN'T HAVE TO DO WITH MEN SLEEPING WITH EACH OTHER.

SO MY QUESTION IS TO YOUR INTERPRETATION OF TEXT IS, YOU KNOW, MOVES FORWARD YOUR INTERPRETATION WHICH IS MORE LIBERATING TO WOMEN, RIGHT?

>> Beth Allison Barr: I HOPE SO.

I DO THINK -- I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION, THAT WE HAVE LEFT HISTORIANS OUT OF THE PICTURE.

I THINK A LOT OF THE ARGUMENTS EVEN THAT YOU HAVE SAID HAVE MOSTLY BEEN BETWEEN -- NOT THAT I WANT TO UNDERMINE THE IMPORTANCE OF BIBLICAL SCHOLARSHIP, BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ADD ACTUAL HISTORIANS INTO THAT CONVERSATION AND TO SEE HOW WHAT WE SEE GOING ON IN THE BIBLICAL TEXT IS NOT ONLY JUST FRAMED BY THE LANGUAGE AT THE TIME, BUT IS BETTER FLESHED OUT BY THE LARGER HISTORICAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

SO WHILE I DO THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS MORE -- WE CAN INTERPRET IT, YOU KNOW, IT'S APPLICATION IS PROBABLY WIDER THAN A LOT OF US.

WE TRY TO MAKE THE BIBLE VERY RIGID AND THEREFORE WE GET IT GOING UP AND IS VERY SORT OF RIGID WAYS AND I DON'T THINK IT IS QUITE AS RIGID AS WE OFTEN INTERPRET IT NOW.

BUT I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM IS IS THAT WE FORGET TO PLACE IT WITHIN ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

AND SO, I ACTUALLY THINK, I THINK THAT WHAT WE WOULD FIND IS IF WE PUT IN THE BROADER PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON, WE WOULD FIND THAT WHILE WE MIGHT HAVE A WIDER RANGE OF INTERPRETATIONS, THAT THEY ALSO ALL POINT IN THE SAME DIRECTION.

AND SO, IF WE LOOK AT PAUL OVERALL, WHAT WE SEE IF WE PUT THOSE VERSES ABOUT WOMEN BE SILENT AND WOMEN DO NOT TEACH AND WE PUT THEM IN THE OVERALL SCHEMA OF HIS THEOLOGY AND THEN WE PUT THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ROMAN WORLD, WHAT WE FIND IS THAT HE IS PROVIDING AN ALTERNATE NARRATIVE TO THE SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN, INSTEAD OF TELLING WOMEN THAT THEY ARE UNDER THE POWER OF THE POWDER FAMILIARS, WHICH IS THE STORY OF THE ROMAN WORLD, HE SAYS THE POTTER FAMILY IS, INSTEAD OF HAVING THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH OVER A WOMAN, HE HAS TO GIVE UP HIS LIFE FOR THE WOMAN.

AND THAT IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT.

AND SO, I THINK WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THE BIBLICAL TEXT, IT IS PART OF THE WORLD IN WHICH IT LIVES, BUT I THINK THAT THE CHRISTIAN, YOU KNOW, LUCY PEPITA, IS A SYSTEMATIC FEEL THE GIN, SHE SAYS IT'S THE CHRISTIAN REVOLUTION AND WITH HOW THE HOUSEHOLD STRUCTURE INVITES WOMEN INTO THE CONVERSATION AND PUTS THEM AT A TABLE, WHICH IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE ROMAN WORLD.

SO IS THAT HELPFUL A LITTLE BIT?

>> Bonnie: YES, SURE.

THAT HELPS.

BUT STILL, SCHOLARS DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER ALL OVER THE PLACE ABOUT -- >> Beth Allison Barr: THEY DO.

>> Bonnie: -- ABOUT THE MEANING OF SPIRITUAL TEXT.

SO PLEASE TELL US HOW YOU CAME TO ALL OF THIS?

WHAT WAS YOUR PERSONAL JOURNEY AS AN EVANGELICAL AND YOUR BACKGROUND THAT MADE YOU REALIZE AND BELIEVE THAT WOMEN HAVE BASICALLY HAD THEIR RIGHTS TO BE FULL-FLEDGED MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH DENIED BY PATRIARCHY?

>> Beth Allison Barr: YEAH.

I GREW UP IN EVANGELICAL CHURCH.

I GREW UP IN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST.

AND mm SOUTHERN BAPTIST PASTOR 10 DAYS BEFORE I STARTED GRADUATE SCHOOL AT THE NIVERSITY.

OF NORTH CAROLINA, CHAPEL HILL.

AND HE STARTED AT SOUTHEASTERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY.

SO WE HAD QUITE A DISCONNECT IN THE WORLDS IN WHICH WE WERE INVOLVED IN.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO BEGIN TO REALIZE SORT OF TOGETHER, ALTHOUGH WE CAME AT DIFFERENT TIMES ALONG OUR JOURNEY, WE BOTH TRAVELED THIS JOURNEY TOGETHER.

AND WE BEGIN TO SEE MORE AND MORE THAT THE WAY THAT THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH PUSHED WOMEN OUT OF ROLES, AND ESPECIALLY THE VERY RIGID RULES THAT THEY WOULD IMPOSE ON, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE WOMEN CAN'T PREACH BEHIND THE PULPIT AND ME AS A HISTORIAN, I KNOW THE PULPIT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT EXISTED IN THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH.

YOU KNOW, THIS WHOLE ROLE OF PREACHER IS NOT ESPECIALLY WAS NO SENIOR PASTOR IN THE BIBLE.

YOU KNOW, SO THIS IS A COMPLETELY -- THIS IS A BRAND-NEW HISTORICALLY NEW IDEA.

AND SO, WE HAVE CARRIED SORT OF OUR MODERN UNDERSTANDING ABOUT HOW THESE ROLES SHOULD WORK WITHIN OUR MODERN UNDERSTANDING OF PATRIARCHY, AND WE HAVE USED THAT TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE.

IN BOTH MY HUSBAND AND I, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT OUR JOURNEY, WE BECAME MORE AND MORE CONVINCED THAT WHAT THE BIBLE SHOWED US ABOUT WHAT WOMEN, THAT WOMEN WERE CALLED JUST LIKE MEN AND THAT THROUGHOUT HISTORY WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CALLED, JUST LIKE MEN.

I HAVE TAUGHT AND PREACHED THROUGHOUT THE LANDSCAPE OF CHRISTIAN HISTORY, BUT WERE NO LONGER BEING TAUGHT THAT TODAY.

AND IT WAS REALLY IN 2016 WHEN OUR WORLD, WE FINALLY REALIZED THAT THE MESSAGE THAT WAS BEING TOLD TO WOMEN IN THE CHURCH WAS REALLY HARMFUL.

AND WE COULD NOT, WE CANNOT BE COMPLICIT IN THAT SYSTEM ANYMORE.

AND US SPEAKING OUT LED TO MY HUSBAND BEING FIRED.

AND THAT ALSO LED TO ME DECIDING -- IT WAS ALSO 2016 WAS THE YEAR OF THE -- HE YOU KNOW, TRUMP'S ELECTION AS WELL AS WE STARTED SEEING THE CHURCH IN THE MOVEMENT REALLY PICK UP AFTER THE #METOO MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, ME TOO IN CHURCH TOO IN 2017.

IN ALL OF THESE THINGS CAME TOGETHER.

AND I KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, I KNOW THAT BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD IS REALLY JUST PATRIARCHY.

AND HISTORICALLY, IT'S NEVER BEEN GOOD FOR WOMEN.

AND IT'S TIME FOR ME TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THAT.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT THE CHURCH TOO MOVEMENT.HAT IS THAT?

>> Beth Allison Barr: CHURCH TOO SORT OF FOLLOWED AFTER ME TO.

ME TO PICK UP AND I THINK 2017 10 ALYSSA MILANO TWEETED IF ANY WOMAN HAS BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED OR SOME SORT OF THING, YOU KNOW, TO #METOO.

THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE #METOO MOVEMENT.

THEN CHURCH TOO PICKED UP AFTER THAT AND THAT WAS ANY WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED OR HAS BEEN SEXUALLY MALIGNED DOOR BECAUSE OF HER SEX HUSBAND OPPRESSED AND SOME SORT OF DAMAGING WAY IN THE CHURCH.

YOU KNOW, #CHURCHTOO.

SO WE STARTED SEEING THESE EVANGELICAL WOMEN START TO COME FORWARD WITH THEIR STORIES.

AND THIS -- >> Bonnie: HOW MANY T WE DID BACK, BY THE WAY?

>> Beth Allison Barr: I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TWEETED, BUT I THINK IT ALMOST CHOKED ON TWITTER.

ALL OF THE WOMEN WHO TWEETED IT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT'S JUST SO PERVASIVE.

I KNOW THROUGHOUT HISTORY THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PERVASIVE, THAT WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TREATED AS SECOND-CLASS AND UNDER MALE AUTHORITY AND IT'S NEVER BEEN GOOD FOR WOMEN AND IT'S NOT GOOD FOR WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

> Bonnie: BUT WE KNOW THAT WOMEN ARE THE BACKBONES OF EVERY CHURCH.

THEY DO ALL THE WORK, THEY RAISE ALL THE MONEY WITH THE BAKING SALES, THEY TAKE THEIR KIDS TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY.

LOTS OF TIMES THE FATHER DOES NOT GO WITH THEM.

>> Beth Allison Barr: RIGHT.

>> Bonnie: SO WHY DID THEY PUT UP WITH THIS?

ESPECIALLY IN TODAY, YOU KNOW, IN TODAY'S WORLD.

I COULD SEE IT IN MEDIEVAL TIMES OR SOMETHING, BUT -- >> Beth Allison Barr: WELL, NO, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

THANK YOU FOR ASKING IT.

ACTUALLY IN THE MEDIEVAL WORLD A LOT OF WOMEN DID NOT PUT UP WITH IT.

THEY DID SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT AND WOMEN OF COURSE TODAY SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT.

BUT I THINK THE REASON WOMEN TODAY PUT UP WITH IT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT THAT IT'S PART OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE.

THIS HAS BEEN -- THE IDEA OF BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD IS SORT OF PART OF THE COMPLIMENTARY MODEL, WHICH REALLY AROSE IN THE LATE 80'S AND EARLY 90'S AND WAS ENSHRINED IN WAYNE GREAT AND JOHN PIPER'S RECOVERY MEDAL CALLED MANHOOD AND WOMANHOOD.

>> Bonnie: TALK ABOUT WHAT COMPLIMENTARY AND FOR PEOPLE DON'T KNOW.

>> Beth Allison Barr: YEAH.

THANK YOU.

COMPLEMENT ARIANISM IS ESSENTIALLY I WOULD ARGUE THE SAME AS PATRIARCHY.

BUT IT'S BUT WITHIN A CHRISTIAN CONTEXT AND IT ARGUES THAT WOMEN ARE DIVINELY CALLED TO BE UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF HUSBAND'S THAT THEY ARE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, BUT THEY ARE CREATED TWO DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT AND HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES.

THOSE DIFFERENT RULES EXCLUDE THEM FROM THE LEADERSHIP.

IT PUTS THEM FOREVER UNDER THE SPIRITUAL HEADSHIP OF MEN.

AND SO THAT -- >> Bonnie: DOES THE CHURCH HAVE ANY ANSWER TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENED -- WHAT IS IT -- IS AT THE CHURCH'S BURDEN, THEN, TO TAKE CARE OF THE WOMEN WERE BEATEN BY THEIR HUSBANDS AND HAVE TO LEAVE WITH THREE OR FIVE CHILDREN AND NO WAY TO EARN AN INCOME, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THE CHURCH AND HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED -- YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN ORDERED AROUND, SEXUALLY ABUSED, PHYSICALLY ABUSED BY THEIR HUSBANDS?

>> Beth Allison Barr: YES.

JOHN PIPER HAS A VERY INFAMOUS DESIRING GOD POST.

I THINK IT'S BEEN TAKEN DOWN OUR HE WAS ASKED THIS QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, WHAT IF A WOMAN, WOULD WE DO WITH A WOMAN WHOSE ABUSED BY HER HUSBAND.

AND HIS RESPONSE WAS IS THAT SHE SHOULD TOLERATE IT FOR A WHILE AND THEN TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH AND THAT THE CHURCH'S RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO TAKE CARE OF HER.

BUT WHAT WE SEE IS THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THE CHURCH DOESN'T.

THE CHURCH HAS NOT TAKEN CARE -- USUALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS THESE WOMEN USUALLY END UP -- MANY OF THESE WOMEN END UP LEAVING THE CHURCH OR THE END UP SO BEATEN DOWN, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE -- IT'S REALLY TRAGIC WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING TO WOMEN.

OTHER WOMEN JUST LIVE WITH IT ALL OF THEIR LIVES.

BECAUSE THEY DO NOT SEE THERE IS ANY OTHER BIBLICAL WAY TO LIVE.

AND SO, WHAT I REALLY AM WANTING TO HEAR IS THAT THEY CAN BE BIBLICALLY FAITHFUL AND CANNOT ACCEPT THESE TEACHINGS OF PATRIARCHY, WHICH ESSENTIALLY ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE SAW GOING ON IN THE MESOPOTAMIA WORLD.

YOU KNOW, WOMEN WERE ALLOWED TO BE DROWNED BY THEIR HUSBANDS, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS LEGALLY ABLE.

AND IT'S LIKE, WE REALLY HAVE NOT ADVANCED VERY FAR SOMETIMES WHICH IS THE SAD STORY OF PATRIARCHY.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

AND YOU ARE SAYING THE RESURGENCE OF COMPLEMENT ARIANISM HAPPENED IN THE '80s AND '90s.

>> Beth Allison Barr: YES, IT DID.

>> Bonnie: AND WAS THAT IN REACTION TO THE WOMEN'S LIBERATION IN THE '60s AND '70S?

>> Beth Allison Barr: YES.

IS A HISTORIAN, IT'S INTERESTING.

THE TWO BIG PUSHES IN THE MODERN CHURCH TO EMPHASIZE WOMEN'S SUBORDINATION WITHIN THE CHURCH, WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 19TH CENTURY AROUND THE SAME TIME THAT WE SEE THE FIRST WAVE OF FEMINISM WHERE WOMEN ARE DEMANDING THE RIGHT TO VOTE, AND IT'S THEN THAT WE START TO GET A GREAT PUSHBACK IN THE CHURCH, AND THAT'S ALSO IT WHEN WE START TO SEE WOMEN BEING TRANSLATED OUT OF THE BIBLE, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, JULIA IS AN APOSTLE IN ROMANS 16 BEGINS BEING TRANSLATED AS A MAN AS JUNIUS IN THE 19TH CENTURY.

IT SEEMS TO ME THERE IS A DIRECT CORRELATION THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO OBSCURE THE FACT THAT WOMEN WERE LEADERS IN THE EARLY CHURCH, TO PUSH THEM OUT.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WAS HE HAVING THE 1960'S.

YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT THE 1960'S FEMINIST REVOLUTION WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF WHAT HAPPENED AFTER WORLD WAR II WHERE ALL THE MEN CAME HOME, TRIED TO PUSH WOMEN OUT OF THEIR JOBS, WOMEN DON'T WANT TO GO OUT OF THEIR JOBS AND THIS ERUPTS IN THE 1960'S.

OF COURSE, THE PUSH FOR THE E.R.A., ETC.

SO HISTORICALLY IT'S NO SURPRISE THAT WE SEE A PUSHBACK AGAINST THIS, BOTH CULTURALLY AS WELL AS WITHIN THE CHURCH.

AND THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, COMPLEMENTARIANISM IN FACT RECOVERING BIBLICAL MANHOOD AND WOMANHOOD, IT SECOND TITLE, IT SAYS IT'S A DIRECT RESPONSE TO EVANGELICAL FEMINISM, SO, YES.

>> Bonnie: HAS THE CHURCH LOST A LOT OF WOMEN BECAUSE OF THIS?

>> Beth Allison Barr: IT'S A HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER.

THEY SEEM TO HAVE.

WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF RESEARCH COMING OUT, YOU KNOW, RECENTLY THAT TALKS ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEFT THE CHURCH, THESE X EVANGELICALS.

I DID AN INTERVIEW WITH THE EX HAD EVANGELICAL PODCAST LAST WEEKEND IT WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE WALKED AWAY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT FIND A PLACE FOR THEM IN THE CHURCH AND IT IS SAD BECAUSE THEY DON'T WALK AWAY BECAUSE OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE, THEY WALK AWAY BECAUSE OF THE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH, HOW THE CHURCH DAMAGED THEM.

THE INITIAL RESPONSE TO MY BOOK ACTUALLY SHOWS HOW MANY UNHAPPY AND QUESTIONING WOMEN THERE ARE OUT THERE.

BECAUSE WE, WE REALIZE THE DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT THE BIBLE SHOWS US ABOUT WOMEN AND HOW GOD TAKES TO WOMEN AND THEN WHAT THE CHURCH -- HOW THE CHURCH TREATS WOMEN.

>> Bonnie: TALK MORE ABOUT HOW YOU -- SO YOUR HUSBAND LOST HIS -- HE WAS FIRED BECAUSE HE STOOD UP FOR YOUR AND HIS NEW READING OF THE TEXTS.

WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?

>> Beth Allison Barr: YEAH.

WELL, AFTER THAT WE SORT OF WENT INTO REALLY KIND OF A HOLDING PATTERN FOR A WHILE WHERE WE WERE BOTH IN TRAUMA AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO.

AND MY HUSBAND BEGAN EXPLORING NEW JOBS.

AND WHEN WE STOPPED RECEIVING THIS DISH WE WERE RECEIVING ESSENTIALLY SEVERANCE PAY, BUT THEY GAVE IT OUT TO US OVER A SERIES OF MONTHS AND WE WERE ASKED -- WE WERE TOLD THAT IT WAS DEPENDENT ON OUR GOOD BEHAVIOR.

SO WE -- SO I PRETTY MUCH KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT FOR A WHILE AND I STILL WAS NOT REALLY SURE WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO.

BUT I'VE BEEN WRITING ON PATHEOS ON A HISTORY BLOG, RELIGIOUS HISTORY BLOG CALLED THE ANXIOUS WENCH FOR MANY YEARS SINCE 2015.

AND I STARTED WRITING, YOU CAN TRANSMIT BLOG POSTS, YOU CAN TRACE SINCE 2017 I STARTED WRITING SPEAKING OUT.

AND THIS LED TO A SERIES OF BLOG POSTS THAT I STARTED IN JANUARY 2018, ON PAUL, AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, RETHINKING PAUL, AND THEN THAT LED TO A SERIES CALLED DISRUPTING CHRISTIAN PATRIARCHY, WHERE I JUST SAID, THIS IS JUST TIME AND NOT HISTORICALLY ACCURATE.

AND THAT LED TO ME GETTING A PHONE CALL FROM ANOTHER WE ARE ASKING IF I THOUGHT ABOUT DOING A BOOK -- NOT A PHONE CALL, TEXT, MESSAGE ASKING IF I WOULD CONSIDER WRITING A BOOK ABOUT IT.

AND THAT LED TO "THE MAKING OF BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD.".

>> Bonnie: HAS A HAS YOUR HUSBAND BEEN DOING?

>> Beth Allison Barr: I'M SORRY ABOUT THAT.

YES, HE IS NOW A BAPTIST CHURCH AT A SMALL BAPTIST CHURCH.

AND SO THERE WAS A LOT OF THINGS ABOUT THIS CHURCH THAT ATTRACTED HIM.

AND IT'S ACTUALLY ALSO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ATTRACTED US IS THAT THEY HAD A WOMAN IN THE PULPIT IN THE 1930S.

AND SO THEY'RE A BAPTIST CHURCH THAT HAS HAD A LONG HISTORY OF SUPPORTING WOMEN IN MINISTRY.

>> Bonnie: SOUTHERN BAPTISTS HAVE ALLOWED WOMEN TO BE MINISTERS, PREACHERS.

>> Beth Allison Barr: YES.

>> Bonnie: FOR QUITE A WHILE, RIGHT?

>> Beth Allison Barr: THEY HAVE.

THAT'S PART OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LATE 1970'S AND '80s WITH OF CONSERVATIVE RESURGENCE, AS WE BEGIN TO SEE A LOT OF WOMEN MOVING INTO THE PULPIT SPACE IN SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCHES.

AND THEN WE SEE THIS CLIMBDOWN.

WE BEGAN TO SEE THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AND THIS IS WHEN WE SEE THIS SIGNIFICANT CLAMPDOWN IN THE LATE '70s AND '80s, PUSHING, REEMPHASIZING THE IMPORTANCE OF 1 TIMOTHY AS WELL, YOU KNOW, FIRST CORINTHIANS, ETC., SAYING WOMEN CANNOT TEACH IN PUSHING WOMEN OUT OF THE PULPIT!THIS IS ALSO WHERE WE SAW THE TAKEOVER OF SOUTHERN BAPTIST SEMINARIES WHERE PROFESSORS THAT SUPPORTED WOMEN IN MINISTRY WERE FIRED AND PUSHED OUT.

THEY WERE TAKEN OVER BY MORE CONSERVATIVE, YOU KNOW, SEMINARY PROFESSORS WHO THEN BEGIN TEACHING THAT WOMEN CANNOT HOLD LEADERSHIP POSITIONS IN THE CHURCH.

WE ALSO BEGIN TO SEE AND SEMINARIES WOMEN NOT BEING ALLOWED TO PREACH AND CLASSES.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS ALSO WHERE WE SEE THE RISE OF THE PASTOR'S WIFE CLASS, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WOMEN'S PLACE, THAT'S WHAT YOU LEARN TO DO.

I THINK IT'S ONLY THE WOMEN WHO FEEL CALLED BY GOD TO DO MORE AND THEY CANNOT DO MORE, AS WELL AS WOMEN WHO END UP IN RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE ABUSIVE OR PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT, OR END UP WITH LEADERSHIP AT A CHURCH WHICH IS MISOGYNIST.

THEY ARE THE ONES THAT REALLY HIT THIS HARD, AND IT CAUSES A LOT OF DAMAGE FOR THEM.

BUT ALSO THINK THIS IS A LOT OF REASON WHY WOMEN STAY IN THESE CHURCHES, BECAUSE MOST OF THESE CHURCHES, IT'S PRETTY INNOCUOUS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S BACKGROUND NOISE.

IT'S NOT REALLY -- >> Bonnie: WHAT IS BACKGROUND NOISE?

>> Beth Allison Barr: THIS PATRIARCHY IS BACKGROUND NOISE IN OUR CHURCHES.

IT DOESN'T AFFECT A LOT OF WOMEN BECAUSE A LOT OF WOMEN DON'T FEEL CALLED TO DO THIS TYPE OF LEADERSHIP AND TEACHING ROLES.

THEY ARE VERY HAPPY DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

AND MANY WOMEN DON'T FEEL CALLED TO CAREER!

THEY FEEL CALLED TO STAY HOME.

MY ARGUMENT IS THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO WHATEVER GOD CALLS THEM TO DO, WHICH MEANS THEY ARE PERFECTLY DISH IF THEY WANT TO STAY HOME WITH THEIR KIDS, THEY CAN.

THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

>> Bonnie: YOU ARE TALKING MAINLY ABOUT WHITE, MIDDLE OR UPPER CLASS WOMEN, RIGHT?

>> Beth Allison Barr: I AM, I AM.

THAT'S ACTUALLY VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING IT UP.

WHEN WE LOOK HISTORICALLY AT THIS MOVEMENT OF BIBLICAL WOMANHOOD, IT ONLY WORKS FOR WEALTHIER FAMILIES, AND FOR MOSTLY WHITE UPPER MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE THING.

IF YOU CARRY IT OUT, IF YOU CARRIED OUT OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, IT JUST DOESN'T, IT DOES NOT WORK.

IT'S CULTURALLY CONSTRUCTED.

AND IT ONLY WORKS FOR FAMILIES WHERE WOMEN DON'T HAVE TO BE PRIMARY BREADWINNERS.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE MADE MORE MONEY THAN MY HUSBAND FOR A LONG TIME.

YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE THERE IS NOTHING, THERE IS NOTHING BIBLICALLY WRONG WITH THAT.

AND SO, IT'S FUNNY TO ME THAT HOW DID IT BECOME BIBLICALLY WRONG FOR WOMEN TO BE, YOU KNOW, TO MAKE -- HAVE SIGNIFICANT CAREERS OF THEIR OWN.

YOU KNOW, IN THE ANCIENT WORLD, THE REASON THAT WOMEN WERE SEEN AS SUBORDINATE TO MEN WORDS BECAUSE OUR BODIES WERE SEEN AS FLAWED.

WE WERE REALLY DEFORMED MAN, IS THE ARISTOTELIAN VIEW OF IT.

AND THE EARLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH INHERITED THAT VIEW.

AND IN FACT, THAT'S THE REASON WHY WOMEN, PRIMARY REASON CANNOT BE PRIESTS IN THE MEDIEVAL WORLD IN THE EARLY -- WOMEN BEGAN TO BE PUSHED OUT, IT WAS SEEN BECAUSE THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEIR BODIES AND THAT'S WHY THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED IN THESE LEADERSHIP ROLES.

BUT THIS, SO THAT IS AN INHERITED PART I THINK OF THAT CHRISTIAN WORLD INHERITED THE PATRIARCHY OF THE WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVED.

AND JESUS, SO IF WE LOOK AT THE NEW TESTAMENT NARRATIVE, WHAT WE SEE JESUS ALWAYS DOING IS, HE'S ALWAYS, HE'S ALWAYS LIFTING WOMEN UP IN SURPRISING WAYS.

I MEAN, HE TALKS TO THE WOMAN AT THE WELL, WHICH HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THE WOMAN AT THE WELL.

YOU KNOW, HE LISTENS TO THE WOMAN OF CANAAN AND MATTHEW 15.

WHEN THE DISCIPLES SAY, DON'T LISTEN TO HER, SHE IS A WOMAN, SHE'S NOT FROM HERE, SHE'S A SHE'S A SERIAL PHOENICIAN WOMAN, YOU KNOW, DON'T LISTEN TO HER AND SHE STOPS AND LISTENS TO HER AND HEALS HER DAUGHTER, AND TELLS HER SHE'S HAVE GREAT FAITH.

HE DOES ALL OF THESE THINGS -- >> Bonnie: AND A FEMALE APOSTLE WAS DENIED BY MANY MAIN CHIMERIC?

>> Beth Allison Barr: YEAH, YEAH.

I MEAN, JUDEA IS LISTED AS AN APOSTLE BY PAUL.

WE ALSO KNOW THE MEDIEVAL WORLD SAW MARY MAGDALENE AS AN APOSTLE THEY CALLED HER THE APOSTLE TO THE APOSTLES.

AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT FAR PAST THE EASTER SEASON.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THE RESURRECTION STORY WAS TOLD THROUGH THE WORDS OF A WOMAN.

THAT IS HOW WE LEARNED ABOUT THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS TO THE WORDS OF A WOMAN.

SO IT'S REALLY SURPRISING TO ME THAT WE WORK SO HARD TO PUSH WOMEN OUT OF THESE RULES WHEN IT SEEMS THAT JESUS WAS ALWAYS SHOWING US HOW WOMEN COULD BE IN THESE -- THAT WOMEN WERE REALLY EQUAL TO MEN IN THE BODY, IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

>> Bonnie: WELL, AND THAT IS A GREAT NOTE TO END ON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, BETH ALLISON BARR, AND YOUR BOOK ABOUT WOMANHOOD IN THE CHURCH AND HOW IT DIFFERS FROM WOMANHOOD IN TODAY'S CULTURE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US IN GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR BOOK.

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