FOUNDATION AND THE CHARLES AFRUE AUFF FOUNDATION.

>> WOMEN ARE AFRAID OF BEING CRITICIZED, UNLESS WE GET OVER THAT FEAR OF BEING CRITICIZED WE CAN NEVER UNLOCK OUR OWN POTENTIAL.

WE CAN NEVER ACTUALLY CHANGE THE ORDER OF THINGS FOR THE BETTER.

THAT FEAR OF BEING CRITICIZED.

THAT FEAR OF MAKING MISTAKES, THATTER FOR OF NOT BEING PERFECT GETS IN OUR WAY.

HELL EVE BE I'M BONNIE ERBAY.

WELCOME TO DO THE CONTRARY.

THIS WEEK WE CONTINUES OUR WOMEN THOUGHT LEADER SERIES WITH KARLI FIORINI, THE FIRST FORTUNE 50 FEMALE CEO OF AN AMERICAN COMPANY, HEWLETT PACKARD.

SHE RAN FOR THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION IN 2016 AND NOW FOCUSES ON LEADERSHIP.

TTC EXECUTIVE PRODUCER CARRIE STEIN SPOKE WITH HER ABOUT HER NEW BOOK, FIND YOUR WAY.

>> I'M HERE WITH CARLY FIORINA.

AND WE'RE EXCITED ABOUT HER NEW BOOK AND ALL HER NEW ENDEAVORS.

ACTUALLY, YOU WERE THE FIRST FEMALE CEO OF FORTUNE 50 COMPANY, YOU RAN FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION FOR PRESIDENT.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO WRITE IT?

AND WHAT DO YOU HOPE READERS, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, GET FROM IT?

>> I WROTE IT BECAUSE I FEEL AS THOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE, WOMEN, MAYBE ESPECIALLY FEEL, PERHAPS ESPECIALLY NOW, KIND OF HELPLESS AND HOPELESS AND ON YOUERLESS.

WE SEE SO MANY PROBLEMS THAT JUST FESTER.

WE'RE SO DISAPPOINTED BY SO MANY DISTANT INSTITUTIONS, WERE SO DISAPPOINTED BY SO MANY PEOPLE WITH LEADERS SOMEWHERE IN THEIR TITLE.

AND SO I WROTE THIS BOOK, TOO, I HOPE, INSPIRE EVERYONE THAT LEADERSHIP ISN'T ABOUT YOUR TITLE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR POSITION, ALL OF US CAN LEAD.

I KNOW THAT FROM MY OWN LIFE.

BUT I ALSO KNOW IT FROM EXPERIENCE IN LIFE.

ALL OF US ARE CAPABLE OF LEADERSHIP.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE POSITION OR TITLE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY YOU MAKE.

IT IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU CHANGE THE ORDER OF THINGS BETTER AND SOLVE THE PROBLEMS IN FRONT OF YOU.

SO I THINK WE'VE GOT A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

AND I THINK WE NEED MORE LEADERS.

AND SO I HOPE THIS BOOK HELPS TO LIFT MORE LEADERS UP SO THAT MORE PROBLEMS MAY BE ACTUALLY GETS OLD.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LEADERSHIP, IT SOUNDS LIKE A COMMENTARY ON THE POLITICS OF TODAY.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

FIRST A LOT OF THE WORK WE DO THROUGH MY FOUNDATION AND MY BUSINESS IS THROUGH COMMUNITIES AND NONPROFITS AND SMALL COMPANIES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE ENORMOUS LATENT POTENTIAL, UN LOCKED POTENTIAL, IF YOU CAN CALL IT THAT TO MAKE THINGS BETTER.

SO NO, NOT IN THAT SENSE.

IT'S NOT POLITICAL WORK.

YES, IN THE SENSE THAT I THINK THE NATURE OF OUR POLITICS TODAY CONTRIBUTES TO PEOPLE FEELING HELPLESS AND HOPELESS AND POWER LESS, BECAUSE WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PROBLEMS AND NOTHING GETS BETTER.

I MEAN, MY GOSH, HOW LONG HAVE WE BEEN ARGUING ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND HEALTHCARE?

HOW LONG HAVE WE BEEN ARGUING ABOUT DEBTS AND DEFICITS?

I THINK PEOPLE FEEL LIKE NOTHING 'S GETTING BETTER AND I ALSO THINK PEOPLE LOOK AT HOW POLITICS IS CONDUCTED AND THEY DON'T SEE A LOT OF LEADERSHIP THERE AND THEY DON'T SEE A LOT OF COLLABORATION THERE AND THOSE TWO THINGS FREQUENTLY GO TOGETHER.

THEY DON'T SEE A LOT OF PROBLEM SOLVING THERE.

AND SO THEY GET REALLY FRUSTRATED AND DISAPPOINTED.

AND WHAT I WANT IS WHEN PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED AND DISAPPOINTED, INSTEAD OF SAYING I GIVE UP, THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO, TO SAY ACTUALLY, THE ANSWER ISN'T THERE , BUT THERE ARE SOME THINGS I CAN DO.

>> BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME READING YOUR BOOK AND WHILE I WAS READING ABOUT TALKING ABOUT PROBLEM SOLVING, YOU WOULD SET -- YOU WOULD TALK ABOUT FIND THE PROBLEM AND SOLVE IT AND THAT WOULD GET THE PEOPLE TOGETHER AND FIGURE IT OUT.

IT SEEMS THAT IN OUR POLITICAL CLIMATE RIGHT NOW, IT'S FIND THE PROBLEM AND FIND OUT HOW TO USE IT TO GET ELECTED NEXT TIME AND NOT TO USE IT TO SOLVE A PROBLEM >> THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK THAT'S COMPLETELY CORRECT.

AND IT'S WHY I SAY SO OFTEN IN THIS BOOK LEADERSHIP ISN'T ABOUT POSITION AND TITLES.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH BIG TITLES THAT DON'T LEAD.

TIMES A LEADER HAS A TITLE, BUT IT ISN'T THE TITLE THAT MAKES THEM THE LEADER, WHAT MAKES THEM THE LEADER IS ARE THEY COLLABORATING WITH OTHERS AND SOLVING PROBLEMS?

I THINK OUR POLITICS IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHAT GEORGE WASHINGTON TRIED TO WARN US ABOUT.

IN 1789 I RECOLLECT R., GEORGE WASHINGTON SAID THE TROUBLE WITH POLITICAL CLIMATES IS THEY COME TO CARE ONLY ABOUT WINNING, AND I THINK THEY CARE ONLY ABOUT WINNING.

AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT POLITICIANS USE FESTERING PROBLEMS TO GET RE-ELECTED.

THEY RUN ON FESTERING PROBLEMS.

THEY GET PEOPLE RILED UP AND GIVING MONEY ON FESTERING PROBLEMS.

BUT MEANWHILE, THE REST OF US CAN ACTUALLY CHANGE THE ORDER OF THINGS FOR THE BETTER.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK IN TIME A LITTLE BIT AND I'D LIKE YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR PEOPLE PLEASING TENDENCIES AND YOUR AH-HA MOMENT WHEN WHAT WOMEN CAN LEARN FROM THAT.

>> WHEN I GREW UP, I WAS THE MIDDLE CHILD.

I WAS THE PARENT PLEASER.

I WAS THE PEACE KEEPER.

I WAS THE ONE WHO AS ALWAYS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

I WAS NEVER GOING TO DISAPPOINT.

I MEAN, WE WILL KIND OF FEEL THAT WAY A LOT.

RIGHT?

OH, WE CONDITION MAKE A MISTAKE.

WE CAN'T DISAPPOINT.

WE NEED TO BE PERFECT.

THAT WAS ME.

THAT WAS ME.

AND SOMETIMES I STILL HAVE THAT TENDENCY, AND I HAVE TO SORT OF HOLD MYSELF BACK AND SAY, WAIT A SECOND.

WHAT AM I DOING HERE?

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF, WHICH I RELATE TO, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID, MAYBE PARTICULARLY WOMEN ARE AFRAID, OF BEING CRITICIZED.

BUT UNLESS WE GET OVER THAT FEAR OF BEING CRITICIZED, WE CAN NEVER UNLOCK OUR OWN POTENTIAL.

WE CAN NEVER ACTUALLY CHANGE THE ORDER OF THINGS FOR THE BETTER.

THAT FEAR OF BEING CRITICIZED, THAT FEAR OF MAKING A MISTAKE, THAT FEAR OF NOT BEING PERFECT GETS IN OUR WAY EVERY SINGLE TIME.

MY AH-HA MOMENT WAS WHEN I REALIZED I JUST COULDN'T PLEASE MY PARENTS ANYMORE.

THEY WANTED ME TO STAY IN-LAW SCHOOL.

I HATED LAW SCHOOL.

I JUST HATED IT.

SO I HAD TO SORT OF MAKE THIS CHOICE, AM I GOING TO SPEND MY TIME DOING SOMETHING I TRULY HATE TO PLEASE MY PARENTS OR AM I GOING TO ADDITION APPOINT MY PARENTS -- DISAPPOINT MY PARENTS AND FIGURE SOMETHING ELSE OUT?

AND ULTIMATELY, I REALLY DISAPPOINTED MY PARENTS, BUT THANK GOODNESS.

EVENTUALLY I FIGURED IT OUT.

>> AND YOU USED A PATH TO FIND THAT AND EVENTUALLY YOU DIDN'T HAVE A PLAN WHEN YOU DECIDED THAT UNDER LEAVING LAW -- YOU WERE LEAVING LAW SCHOOL, BUT YOU FOUND SOMETHING.

>> WELL, IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK SO MUCH ABOUT IN THIS BOOK.

I SEE SO MANY PEOPLE GET HUNG UP ON THE PLAN.

OKAY.

THE PLAN.

I'M GOING TO GET MARRIED BY THIS POINT.

I'M GOING TO GET THIS KIND OF JOB.

I'M GOING TO HAVE THIS MANY KIDS I'M GOING TO MAKE THIS MUCH MONEY.

MY PLAN WAS I'M GOING TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL AND I'M GOING TO PLEASE MY PARENTS AND EVENTUALLY GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS.

I HAD IT ALL PLANNED UP, AND THEN THE PLAN BLEW UP.

THANK GOODNESS I BLEW THAT PLAN UP.

AND FROM THIS POINT ON, I'VE ACTUALLY NEVER HAD MY LIFE MAPPED OUT.

AND BECAUSE I NEVER HAD MY LIFE MAPPED OUT, YEAH, IT'S SCARY SOMETIMES, BUT I COULD SEE THE OPPORTUNITIES AS THEY CAME ALONG I'VE SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WOMEN AS WELL IN, SAKE, A BUSINESS SETTING WHO GET FOCUSED ON THAT PLAN AND THEY MISS SO MANY OF THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE SORT OF LYING RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM, BECAUSE IT'S NOT ON THE PLAN.

AND SO, SO MUCH OF THIS BOOK IS ABOUT ONE OF THE WAYS TO UNLOCK OUR POTENTIAL, THE EASIEST WAY, THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO UNLOCK OUR POTENTIAL IS TO WORK WITH OTHERS AND TO SOLVE A PROBLEM, CHANGE THE ORDER OF THINGS FOR THE BETTER.

AND ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO EDGE SURE THAT WE LIVE A LIFE THAT'S FULFILLING AND JOYFUL AND IMPACT FUL IS THAT WE SEE ALL THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE IN FRONT OF US AND HAVE THE COURAGE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM INSTEAD OF SAYING, NO, I'VE GOT TO STICK TO THE PLAN, BECAUSE SOMETIMES THE PLAN ISN'T WHAT YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD BE.

>> DO YOU THINK WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT LEADERSHIP STYLES THAN MEN?

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

I THINK THAT WOMEN ARE NATURAL PROBLEM-SOLVERS, AND I THINK THEY'RE NATURAL COLLABORATORS.

I THINK -- AND SO THAT, IN A WAY , GIVES WOMEN A LEG UP.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT MEN DON'T SOLVE PROBLEMS AND CAN'T LEAD.

IN FACT, I'M FOND OF SAYING THAT LEADERS ALL LOOK DIFFERENT, BUT LEADERSHIP IS ALWAYS THE SAME.

AND I BELIEVE THAT.

HOWEVER, I DID THINK IF YOUR NATURAL INCLINATION IS TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, AND LET'S FACE IT, WOMEN HAVE LOADS OF PROBLEMS IN THEIR LIVES AND THEY'RE TRYING TO SOLVE ALL THOSE PROBLEMS.

SOMETIMES FOR OURSELVES, FREQUENTLY FOR OTHERS, BUT THAT PROBLEM SOLVING INSTINCT IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO START AND I ALSO THINK WOMEN NATURALLY COLLABORATE.

WE DON'T ALWAYS EXAMPLE THE POSITIONER TITLE, SO WE FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO PRODUCE THE RESULTS.

MEN SOMETIMES EXPECT THE POSITION IN THEIR TITLE.

MAYBE IT SOMETIMES COMES EASIER TO THEM, THAT THEY FORGET THE POSITION AND TITLE, AND THEN THEY GET ADDITION TRACT AND THINK, OH, THAT'S IT.

I'VE ARRIVED, WHEN ALL THEY HAD WAS A POSITION AND A TITLE.

>> AS THE FIRST FEMALE CEO OF A FORTUNE 50 COMPANY, WHICH IS A MAJOR ACCOMPLISHMENT, OBVIOUSLY S FOR HEWLETT PACKARD, YOU WERE A PIONEER, BUT YOU MUST HAVE FACED A LOT OF SEXISM AND CRITICISM.

>> YEAH.

WELL, I WAS A FIRST IN MANY THINGS.

I WAS THE FIRST WOMAN.

I WAS A FIRST OUTSIDER.

HE IS THE FIRST NONENGINEER.

I WAS THE FIRST PERSON WHO DIDN'T COME FROM SILICON VALLEY.

AND WHEN YOU'RE DIFFERENT, IT'S DIFFERENT.

IT'S ALWAYS TRUE.

WHATEVER MAKES US DIFFERENT, IT'S DIFFERENT FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE DIFFERENT.

WHEN I ARRIVED AT HEWLETT PACKARD, I WAS FOCUSED ON THE THINGS THAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO TRANSFORM THE COMPANY, BECAUSE THAT WAS MY MISSION, BUT EVERYBODY ELSE WAS FOCUSED ON OH , MY GOSH, SHE'S DIFFERENT.

SHE'S DIFFERENT.

OH, MY GOSH.

SHE'S A WOMAN.

SO MUCH CONVERSATION ABOUT MY GENDER.

IT WAS JUST STUN TO GO ME.

I REALLY WASN'T PREPARED FOR IT.

HOW SILLY THAT SOUNDS NOW.

BUT I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE A PIONEER IN THAT WAY.

I WAS SO USED TO BEING THE ONLY WOMAN AMONG SO MANY MEN THAT IT JUST HAD SEIZED TO BE REMARK -- CEASED TO BE REMARKABLE FOR ME, UNFORTUNATELY, BUT IT WAS REMARKABLE FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

THE QUESTIONS I WAS ASKED, MY FIRST IMMEDIATE BEING WITH BUSINESS WEEK WE WERE DOING A BIG STORY AND THE EDITOR WAS THERE.

SUCH A BIG STORY AT HEWLETT PACKARD THAT THEY HAD STARTED BEFORE I ARRIVED.

HIS VERY FIRST QUESTION TO ME WAS NOT WHAT DO YOU MAN FOR THE COMPANY, NOT WHY YOU WERE HIRED, NOT WHAT ARE YOUR AMBITION, BUT WHAT DESIGNER MADE YOUR SUIT?

WHEN I RAN FOR PRESIDENT AFTER ONE OF MY DEBATE PERFORMANCES, MY CAMPAIGN MANAGER WAS ASKED, FIRST QUESTION UP, AN WHAT DESIGNER ARE HER SHOES?

IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN YOU'RE DIFFERENT.

AND SO OFTEN ALL OF US CAN GET THROWN OFF BY THAT, BUT IF WE GET THROWN OFF BY IT, IT'S OUR PROBLEM.

IT'S OUR PROBLEM.

OH YES, WILL HAVE THOSE THINGS WERE VERY DIFFICULT.

THE CRITICISM WAS DIFFERENT.

WHEN I RAN FOR PRESIDENT, WHEN I WAS A CEO, THE CRITICISM IS DIFFERENT.

IT'S WHY COURAGE IS SO IMPORTANT , BECAUSE WITHOUT COURAGE, YOU CAN'T EVER GET OVER THAT FEAR OF BEING CRITICIZED.

>> THE RUN FOR PRESSES WE'LL GET TO IN JUST A FEW MINUTES, BUT LET'S STAY A LITTLE BIT ON YOUR BUSINESS CAREER.

AND THERE WERE CERTAIN SPECIFIC THINGS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT THAT YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH AT DIFFERENT POSITIONS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT STARTED WHEN I STARTED, AND IT NEVER ENDED.

WHEN I FINALLY GOT AN MBA, I STARTED AS A SECRETARY AFTER DROPPING OUT OF LAW SCHOOL WITHOUT A PLAN.

I HAD TO WORK.

SO I WENT TO WORK IN A 9-PERSON RE-AFFIRM AS A RECEPTIONIST, AS A SECRETARY.

BUT WHEN I FINALLY GOT MY MBA, I LANDED IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

WORKING FOR AT&T WHEN IT WAS THEN A MILLION EMPLOYEES.

AND AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE TOTEM POLE, AND I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PARTNEREDDED WITH A MAN WHO HAD ESTABLISHED, LONG ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIPS WITH CUSTOMERS THAT ULTIMATELY I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO SERVE.

AND SO THE VERY FIRST TIME THAT I WAS GOING TO MEET THESE CUSTOMERS, THAT'S PRETTY IMPORTANT TO KNOW YOUR CUSTOMERS , HE DECIDED TO HOLD THE MEETING IN A STRIP CLUB.

NOT SO FAR FROM WHERE WE'RE SITTING.

AND AT THAT STRIP CLUB, IT WAS FAMOUS BECAUSE THE YOUNG WOMEN WHO DRESS IN BABY DOLL SEE- THROUGH NEGLECT WILL HE JAYS AND DANCE ONS TERRENCE.

THAT WAS MY FIRST MEETING AND YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW TERRIFIED I WAS.

TO LOOK STUPID, I DID.

OF THE SITUATION THAT I WAS UN FAMILIAR WITH, I WAS.

TOO NOT BE ABLE TO DO MY JOB.

AND SO ULTIMATELY, I HAD TO OVERCOME ALL OF THAT AND SLOW UP CAN YEAH, I LOOKED LIKE A FOOL.

BUT WHEN I GOT BACK TO THE OFFICE, MY STOCK HAD RISES PEN AND MY COLLEAGUES' SHOCKER HAD FALLEN AND I LEARNED SOMETHING IN THAT.

>> >> IT SOUNDS A LITTLE SABOTAGE LIKE >> OH, IT WAS OH, I MEAN, LET'S BE CLEAR THIS GUY.

THIS GUY DIDN'T LIKE THE FACT THAT I WAS GOING TO BE PARTNERED WITH HIM.

AND HE WAS TRYING TO SCARE ME TO DEATH AND SABOTAGE ME AND MAKE SURE THAT I COULDN'T DO MY JOB FROM THE MOMENT I STARTED.

BUT HERE'S THE FUNNY THING ABOUT THAT STORY.

THE END OF THAT STORY, IS THAT HE AND I BECAME GREAT COLLEAGUES, WE BECAME GREAT COLLEAGUES, BECAUSE I WAS HUMBLE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND I ACTUALLY NEEDED HIM DESPITE THE INCREDIBLE EMBARRASSMENT OF THAT MEETING, I NEEDED HIM, HE HAD THE RELATIONSHIPS, AND HE KNEW THE COMPANY, AND I DIDN'T.

SO I WAS HUMBLE ENOUGH TO SAY, OKAY, I GOTTA FIGURE OUT A WAY TO WORK WITH THIS GUY.

BUT I ALSO LEARNED, AND I CALL THIS EMPATHY THAT HE WAS AFRAID OF ME.

HE THOUGHT I WAS THE BRAND NEW MODEL WITH AN MBA, WHO WAS GOING TO TAKE HIS JOB, BECAUSE HE WAS GETTING OLDER, AND HE WAS BEING PASSED BY.

SO HE WAS AFRAID OF ME.

AND I TELL YOUNG WOMEN ALL THE TIME, THERE ARE SOME MEN WHO ARE BAD, AND THEY BEHAVE BADLY.

AND I'VE ENCOUNTERED THOSE, TOO.

AND BAD PEOPLE WITH BAD BEHAVIOR HAVE TO BE CONFRONTED.

BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE THOUGHTLESS, CARELESS, CLUELESS, AFRAID.

SO THEY ACT OUT.

AND MOST OF THE TIME, WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK WITH THEM.

AND WE FIGURED OUT HOW TO WORK TOGETHER, >> BACK TO THE PRESIDENTIAL RUN PRESIDENTIAL RUN, AND CRITICISM.

BACK WHEN I THINK IT WAS DURING A DEBATE, YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT THE COMMENTS THAT THEN CANDIDATE, NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP MADE IN ROLLING STONE SAYING, LOOK AT THAT FACE.

WOULD ANYONE VOTE FOR THAT?

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT FACE THE FACE OF OUR NEXT PRESIDENT?

YET YOUR RESPONSES IN THE DEBATE WAS NOT WHAT I GUESS MOST PEOPLE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED AND YOU HADN'T EVEN PLANNED FOR IT.

>> FIRST OF ALL, WHEN WHEN THAT WAS FIRST REPORTED TO ME, BY MY CAMPAIGN STAFF, AND I HAD A LOT OF WOMEN WHO WORK FOR ME.

AND THEY WERE YOUNGER THAN I WAS, AND THEY WERE ALL HORRIFIED, REALLY, TRULY HORRIFIED AND ANGRY.

AND HONESTLY, MY FIRST REACTION WAS TO LAUGH.

AND THE REASON I LAUGHED IS BECAUSE I HAD EXPERIENCED THAT SO MANY TIMES, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

BUT I HAVE EXPERIENCED SO MANY TIMES MEN, USING MY APPEARANCE, COMMENTING ON MY APPEARANCE POSITIVELY OR NEGATIVELY, AS A WAY TO DIMINISH ME, TO DEMEAN ME, TO DISMISS ME.

AND SO FOR ME, IT WAS LIKE, OH, HERE WE GO AGAIN.

OF COURSE, HE'S COMMENTING ON MY APPEARANCE.

HOWEVER, SOMETHING ELSE WAS CALLED FOR, AND I KNEW IT WOULD COME UP IN THE DEBATE.

SO THEY SAID, OH, WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

AND WHAT WILL YOU SAY?

AND I SAID, LET'S JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

BECAUSE SOMETIMES I THINK THE BEST RESPONSES COME IN THE MOMENT.

AND SO IN THE MOMENT, I TOOK WORDS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD USED ONLY A MOMENT BEFORE AND REFERRING TO JEB BUSH, AND I SAID, I THINK EVERY WOMAN IN AMERICA HEARD WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID.

IT WAS ALL THAT NEEDED TO BE SAID, WHAT WAS INTERESTING, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT WAS DONALD TRUMP SAID, JUST FOR THE RECORD, I THINK IT'S A BEAUTIFUL FACE.

AND I IGNORED HIM COMPLETELY.

BECAUSE YOU SEE, IT WAS JUST AS INAPPROPRIATE FOR HIM TO CALL ME BEAUTIFUL ON A DEBATE STAGE AS TO IMPLY I WAS NOT ATTRACTIVE, NEITHER ARE APPROPRIATE.

AND SOMETIMES RATHER THAN GETTING INTO A FIGHT WITH SOMEONE WHO'S CLEARLY BEHAVING BADLY, YOU JUST HAVE TO HIGHLIGHT THEIR BEHAVIOR.

HIS BEHAVIOR WAS CLEAR.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT YOU'LL GO BACK INTO POLITICS?

>> I'VE LEARNED NEVER TO SAY NEVER.

I'VE LEARNED NEVER TO SAY NEVER.

BUT IT'S A DIFFICULT TIME IN POLITICS NOW, WHERE EITHER WE ASSASSINATE SOMEONE'S CHARACTER, BECAUSE WE DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.

I REMEMBER JOHN MCCAIN ROUTINELY BEING CALLED A RACIST.

HE WASN'T.

BUT PEOPLE DISAGREED WITH HIM.

SO WE EITHER ASSASSINATE SOMEONE'S CHARACTER, BECAUSE WE DISAGREE WITH THEM.

THAT'S WRONG.

OR WE EXCUSE SOMEONE'S CHARACTER, IF WE DO AGREE WITH THEM.

AND THAT'S GOING ON A LOT RIGHT NOW, AS WELL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND THAT'S JUST AS WRONG.

>> YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE DEMOCRATIC WOMEN RUNNING FOR THE NOMINATION?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IS I THINK IT'S WONDERFUL.

THERE'S SO MANY WOMEN RUNNING FOR THE NOMINATION.

I THINK IT'S GREAT.

AND I HOPE WOMEN WILL CONTINUE TO RUN AND TO STEP UP INTO PUBLIC LIFE.

WHAT I THINK IS THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE TO BE THOUGHTFUL AND CAREFUL, BECAUSE A LOT OF THE POLICIES THAT DEMOCRATS ARE ALL SORT OF COALESCING AROUND RIGHT NOW IN THEIR PRIMARY MEN AND WOMEN, I THINK WE'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO WIN WHEN PEOPLE ARE-LOOK, I DISAGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP ON MANY, MANY, MANY THINGS, INCLUDING HIS APPROACH TO IMMIGRATION, JUST AS ONE.

BUT WHEN PEOPLE START APOLOGIZING ABOUT TAKING A STRONG STAND ON IMMIGRATION, I THINK THAT'S NOT A POLICY THAT'S GOING TO WIN.

>> SO DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR ANY OF THE WOMEN?

OR ANY OF THEM?

YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK THEY'RE STANDOUT?

DO YOU THINK THAT THERE MIGHT BE ANOTHER FEMALE CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT?

>> WELL, I GUESS I'VE LEARNED NOT TO PREDICT MUCH IN POLITICS, BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE I WOULD HAVE PREDICTED ANY OF THE LAST FOUR YEARS IN POLITICS.

BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY IS, I RAN FOR PRESIDENT BECAUSE I THINK OURS WAS INTENDED TO BE A CITIZEN GOVERNMENT.

I THINK WE HAVE TOO MANY PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS.

I THINK WE EXPECT TOO MANY THINGS TO GET SOLVED IN WASHINGTON, WHEN WASHINGTON ACTUALLY IS THE PROBLEM.

AND SO I THINK IT'S GREAT THAT PEOPLE OF ALL KINDS PARTICIPATE.

WHAT I HOPE FOR IS THAT OVER TIME, IT'S NOT QUITE AS MUCH ABOUT POLITICS.

AND IT'S A LITTLE MORE ABOUT PROBLEM SOLVING AND REAL PROGRESS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS LOST A NUMBER OF WOMEN AND I REMEMBER BACK WHEN THERE WAS A BIG PUSH FOR A BIGGER TENT, WHAT NEEDS TO WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN?

CAN IT BE CAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF TODAY REALLY BE MORE FEMALE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

HONESTLY, I DON'T KNOW.

YOU KNOW, I, I DID NOT WANT PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BE THE NOMINEE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND I DID NOT WANT HIM TO BE THE NOMINEE, BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE WOULD DO LASTING DAMAGE TO THE PARTY LASTING DAMAGE TO THE IMAGE AND THE BRAND OF THE PARTY, WITH PEOPLE WHO MATTER, INCLUDING WOMEN, BUT NOT LIMITED TO WOMEN.

AND I THINK THAT PROPHECY, UNFORTUNATELY, IS COMING TRUE.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT I DISAGREE WITH HIM ABOUT ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.

BUT I DISAGREE WITH HOW HE DOES THINGS VIRTUALLY EVERY TIME AND ONE OF THE THINGS I SAY IN THIS BOOK IS CHARACTER IS KNOWING THAT HOW YOU DO THINGS IS AS IMPORTANT AS WHAT YOU DO, HOW WE DO THINGS MATTERS.

AND SO I DO NOT LIKE HOW HE DOES THINGS.

AND I THINK THE DAMAGE FROM HOW HE DOES THINGS IS LASTING.

>> YOU'VE FACED TRAGEDY, ILLNESS , DISAPPOINTMENTS, BUT YOU HAVEN'T LETS THAT STOP YOU.

THERE'S GOT TO BE A REAL SPECIFIC PIECE OF ADVICE THAT YOU HAVE ABOUT PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD FROM THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> WELL, FIRST, I TELL PEOPLE THAT DISAPPOINTMENT, TRAGEDY EVEN, SETBACK, ILLNESS, IT IS PART OF LIFE.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT WHEN YOU'RE STARTING OUT.

YOU SOMEHOW IMAGINE THAT YOU CAN GET THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT BAD THINGS HAPPENING, BUT YOU CAN'T.

IT IS PART OF LIFE.

AND I'VE ENDURED SOME VERY, VERY DIFFICULT THINGS.

HAVING ENDURED SOME OF THOSE THINGS, I'VE ALSO LEARNED THAT NO MATTER HOW TERRIBLE A TIME I WENT THROUGH, THERE WAS ALWAYS SOMEWHERE IN THERE A BLESSING, A GLIMMER, SOME HOPE, SOMEONE WHO SAID TO ME AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH OR SOMEONE WHO LIVED ME UP WHEN I NEEDED IT.

AND SO WHAT I SAY TO PEOPLE IS, WHAT I'VE LEARNED IS, IT IS PART OF LIFE.

ALL OF US ARE STRONGER THAN WE KNOW, HONESTLY.

ALL OF US HAVE MORE POTENTIAL THAN WE KNOW.

I'VE SEEN THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND IN THE DARKEST TIMES SEE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE TO BLESS YOU WITH SOMETHING, EVEN A KIND WORD.

SEE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE STRETCHING OUT THEIR HAND.

HER A ALWAYS THERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY.

PLEASE COME US ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK, AND INSTAGRAM.

AND VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE THIS ONLINE EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY, PLEASE VISIT OUR PBC WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

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