[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE HAVE THE HONOR OF JOANN LUBLIN AS OUR GUEST.

SHE WAS A LONGTIME CAREER ADVICE COLUMNIST FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, CURRENTLY A CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, AND SHE HAS WRITTEN THE BOOK b MOMS: HOW EXECUTIVE MOTHERS NAVIGATE WORK AND LIFE.b WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, MS. LUBIN.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Joann Lublin: I AM GREAT.

AND PLEASE CALL ME JOANN, BONNIE.

>> Bonnie: OKAY, JOANNE.

SO TELL ME ABOUT THE BOOK.

YOU INTERVIEWED A LOT OF DIFFERENT WOMEN IN DIFFERENT POSITIONS ABOUT HOW THEY NAVIGATED CAREER AND FAMILY, YOU KNOW, THE WORKLIFE JUGGLE AS IT USED TO BE CALLED.

WHO DID YOU TALK TO AND WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> Joann Lublin: ALTOGETHER INTERVIEWED 111 WOMEN, WHICH IS TWICE AS MANY AS I DID FOR MY FIRST BOOK.

86 OF THOSE WOMEN ARE WOMEN WHO HAVE CHILDREN AND HAVE GOTTEN TO BE EXECUTIVES AT A BUSINESS.

AND BETWEEN THAT GROUP, THE 86 WOMEN, WERE SPLIT ROUGHLY EVENLY BETWEEN BABY BOOMERS, MY GENERATION, AND WOMEN WHO ARE MILLENNIALS AND GEN XERS, SO WOMEN IN THEIR 60'S, ROUGHLY, AND WOMEN IN THE 30'S AND EARLY 40'S.

IN ADDITION, THERE WERE 25 ADULT DAUGHTERS OF THE BOOMERS WHO I INTERVIEWED.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE GROWING UP HAVING A SUPERMOM, A POWER MOM, AS YOUR MOTHER?

AND TO WHAT EXTENT DID THEY WANT TO FOLLOW UP IN HER FOOTSTEPS?

SO IN A SENSE, IT'S THAT LOOK LIKE TWO AND A HALF GENERATIONS, BECAUSE MOST OF THOSE DAUGHTERS WERE IN THEIR 20s.

>> Bonnie: I HAVE TO ASK THIS QUESTION BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH A PANDEMIC FOR ALMOST THE LAST YEAR WHERE THE KIND OF MOMS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, NOT, OF COURSE, LOW INCOME MOMS, WAITRESSES, DOMESTIC PEOPLE, ETC., HAVE BEEN -- THEY HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS BECAUSE OF -- THEY CANNOT DO A CONTACT FREE.

BUT EXECUTIVE MOMS HAVE HAD THEIR LIVES UPENDED AND POSSIBLY MADE EASIER BY THE PANDEMIC WHERE COMPANIES ARE STARTING TO FIND OUT THAT WORKING FROM HOME IS A GREAT THING, NOT SOMETHING TO PREVENT AND -- WERE CUT BACK ON, AND THAT IT SAVES COMPANIES A HUGE BUDGET ITEM, WHICH IS RENT.

>> Joann Lublin: IT CERTAINLY DOES.

I, UNFORTUNATELY, DID THE REPORTING FOR THIS BOOK BEFORE THE PANDEMIC BEGAN, BUT I DID FOLLOW-UP DURING THE EDITING PROCESS TO FIND OUT HOW A COUPLE OF THOSE WOMEN, PARTICULARLY IN THE YOUNGER GENERATION, WERE COPING, WHO HAD ALREADY WORKED REMOTELY TO 1 DEGREE OR ANOTHER BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, AND I THINK YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE HAVE HAD THIS HUGE NATIONAL EXPERIMENT IN WORKING FROM HOME.

AND GUESS WHAT?

IT WORKS.

>> Bonnie: YEAH.

IT WORKS SO WELL THAT, I MEAN, OFFICE SPACE AND MAJOR DOWNTOWN CITIES HAS GOTTEN A LOT CHEAPER TO RENT AND PEOPLE I TALKED TO IN THE REAL ESTATE INDUSTRY ARE THINKING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CONVERT -- APARTMENTS DOWNTOWN ARE STILL AT A PREMIUM AND THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM AND THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TURN OFFICE SPACE INTO CONDOS AND CO-OPS IF THEY WANT TO KEEP THE VALUE OF THE PROPERTIES UP.

BUT ANYWAY, LET'S GIVE BACK TO YOUR FINDINGS.

OKAY.

YOU TALK TO THESE WOMEN WHO WERE EXTREMELY HIGH-LEVEL PEOPLE.

I DON'T -- INCLUDING SOME HOUSEHOLD NAMES LIKE MARISSA MAYER.

TELL ME WHAT THEY TOLD YOU.

>> Joann Lublin: I THINK IT'S GOING TO VARY BY GENERATION, AND THAT'S WITH THE MOST STRIKING CONCLUSION IS ABOUT THIS BOOK.

IT HAS GOTTEN A LOT EASIER, IT HAS GOTTEN A LOT BETTER.

AND GUESS WHAT?

IT'S BECAUSE OUR GENERATION, THE BABY BOOM GENERATION, BLAZED THE TRAIL.

AND SO, THESE YOUNGER WOMEN FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE EARNED THE RIGHT TO HAVE SUCCESSFUL CAREERS AND HAVE SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGES AND HAVE SUCCESSFUL CHILDREN.

AND WHILE YOU CAN NEVER HAVE IT ALL AT ANY GIVEN TIME, YOU ARE CERTAINLY GETTING A LOT MORE ACCEPTANCE FOR THESE DUAL ROLES.

>> Bonnie: I'M INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT THE MILLENNIAL CHILDREN OF THE BOOMER WOMEN TOLD YOU ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE RAISED BY A CAREER MOM.

AND ON ONE HAND, I WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT EXAMPLE TO SET FOR YOUR CHILDREN, TO SHOW THEM THAT BOTH PARENTS WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME; ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE -- AT LEAST BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND BEFORE THE TIME WHEN WORKING FROM HOME WAS ALLOWED BY A LOT OF CORPORATIONS, MANY OF THOSE KIDS MAY HAVE FELT LIKE THEY WERE NEGLECTED BY THEIR MOMS AND THEIR CHILDHOOD.

>> Joann Lublin: THERE DEFINITELY WERE ELEMENTS OF BOTH, AND I THINK JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE, THERE IS A YOU IN A GANG TO ALL OF OUR EXPERIENCES.

MANY OF THESE DAUGHTERS GREATLY APPRECIATED THAT ROLE MODEL AND EXAMPLE THAT THEIR MOTHERS HAD SET AND INSPIRE THEM TO WANT TO AIM HIGH IN THEIR OWN CAREERS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, MANY OF THEM MISSED THEIR MOMS, BECAUSE THEIR MOMS TRAVELED A LOT.

ONE OF THOSE ADULT DAUGHTERS CHOOSE TO BECOME A STAY-AT-HOME MOM FOR JUST THAT REASON, BECAUSE SHE DID NOT SEE HER MOM A LOT GROWING UP.

>> Bonnie: AND WHAT OTHER KINDS OF REACTIONS DID YOU SEE FROM THE -- YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE AN ANTICIPATED RESPONSE, YOU KNOW, DOING 180 DEGREES DIFFERENT FROM HOW YOU WERE PARENTED.

BUT WHAT OTHER THINGS DID YOU FIND FROM THE CHILDREN OF THE EXECUTIVE MOMS?

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, IN SOME CASES, THE ADULT DAUGHTERS CHOOSE CAREERS WHERE THEY COULD HAVE MORE FLEXIBILITY IN TERMS OF SETTING THEIR HOURS OR WHEN THEY WERE HOME, AND THEY DID THAT PERHAPS BY CREATING THEIR OWN BUSINESS WHERE MOM HAD WORKED FOR A BIG COMPANY.

ANOTHER THING, THOUGH, IS VERY STRIKING, WAS HOW MUCH OF THESE ADULT DAUGHTERS BENEFITED FROM HAVING THEIR MOM IS THERE SORT OF SECRET WEAPON WHEN THEY GOT INTO THE WORKFORCE.

THESE WERE WOMEN WHO BENEFITED GREATLY FROM CAREER ADVICE FROM THEIR SUCCESSFUL MOMS.

>> Bonnie: NOW, WOULD YOU FIND THAT THE YOUNGER WOMEN FOUND AS THEIR OBSTACLES?

WHAT PROBLEMS ARE THEY DEALING WITH NOW THAT THEY WORK FOR COMPANIES, AT LEAST SOME OF WHOM YOU SPOKE TO, SINCE THE PANDEMIC, WHO MIGHT BE A LOT MORE WILLING TO LET PEOPLE WORK FROM HOME FULL-TIME?

ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO ARE LAWYERS, WHO ARE OUT AT BRUCE AND THAT SORT OF THING WHICH CAN BE DONE FROM ANYWHERE THAT YOU HAVE A WI-FI CONNECTION.

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, I THINK THE PROBLEM PERSISTS FOR THE YOUNGER GENERATION EXECUTIVE MOMS THAT WAS WRITTEN LARGE OF BABY BOOMERS, AND THAT IS HOW MUCH HELP, HOW MUCH SUPPORT, HOW MUCH COPARENTING ARE YOU GETTING FROM YOUR SPOUSE, WHETHER IT'S A HUSBAND, WIFE, OR DOMESTIC PARTNER.

AND IN FACT, A STUDY WAS JUST RELEASED TODAY BY AN OUTFIT CALLED NEW AMERICA THAT FORTUNE COVERED AND IT FOUND THAT OVERWHELMINGLY, YOU KNOW, MEN THINK THAT THEY ARE CAREGIVING EQUALLY.

BUT IT TURNS OUT IN REALITY, THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

AND STUDY AFTER STUDY SHOWS THAT MEN AND WOMEN VIEW THIS IMAGE AS TO WHO IS DOING WHAT IN THE HOME VERY DIFFERENTLY.

>> Bonnie: YOU KNOW, I AS A CHILD OF THE '60s, A BOOMER, ALWAYS THOUGHT THE ANSWER TO WOMEN WHO WANTED TO WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME WAS NOT SO MUCH TO RELY ON CHILDCARE, BUT TO HAVE YOUR PARTNER SPLIT THE WORK WITH YOU, AND PERHAPS WORKED DIFFERENT SHIFTS SO SOMEBODY COULD ALWAYS BE HOME OR SUPER CLOSE BY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

AND THEN OF COURSE THIS WHOLE GENERATION CAME UP BEHIND ME WHERE EVERYBODY'S TALKING ABOUT WE NEED PAGE CHILDCARE.

WHAT DO YOU -- YOU KNOW, HOW DID THAT SHOW UP IN YOUR FINDINGS WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE?

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, AGAIN, LIKE YOU POINTED OUT, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ELITE OF THE WORKFORCE HERE.

SO THESE WOMEN ARE MAKING A DECENT LIVING AND THEY CAN AFFORD TO PAY CHILD CAREGIVER.

ON THE OTHER HAND, GIVEN THAT ABOUT 1/5 OF THE WOMEN I INTERVIEWED ARE WOMEN OF COLOR AND A SIGNIFICANT PROPORTION OF THOSE ARE ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN, THEY HAVE EXTENDED FAMILY.

AND SO, YOU HAVE THIS GREAT EXAMPLE WHERE THIS IBM EXECUTIVE IS RELOCATING FOR HER JOB, MOVING TO AN AREA.

HER HUSBAND ALSO WORKS FOR IBM.

AND THEY HAVE NO, YOU KNOW, FAMILY.

THEY DON'T KNOW ANYONE.

SHE REACHES OUT TO HER PARENTS WHO ARE BOTH SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS, AND THEY BOTH -- HER PARENTS AGREED TO ESSENTIALLY SELL THEIR BUSINESSES AND COME LIVE WITH THE HIGH-RANKING IBM EXECUTIVE AND HER HIGH-RANKING HUSBAND AND CARE FOR THE TWO, WHAT ARE THEIR TWO GRANDSONS.

AND SO, THE SACRIFICES THAT EACH GENERATION IS WILLING TO MAKE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION I THINK IS ALSO A VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR HERE.

>> Bonnie: AND WHY DO YOU THINK LOW-INCOME WORKING WOMEN DO NOT HAVE THOSE FAMILY RESOURCES?

>> Joann Lublin: OH, I THINK A LOT OF THEM DO.

I THINK IT'S WHY, IF YOU LOOK BACK IN HISTORY, AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS IN ONE CHAPTER, THE PROPORTION OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN IN THE LABOR FORCE IN THE LATE 1800S AND EARLY 1900S WAS FAR HIGHER THAN WHITE WOMEN, AND IT WAS BECAUSE, IN MANY CASES, THEY COULD RELY ON EXTENDED FAMILY FOR CAREGIVING.

>> Bonnie: WELL, AND IT WAS ALSO BECAUSE THEY WERE MUCH POORER, AS WOMEN OF COLOR CONTINUE TO BE, CORRECT?

>> Joann Lublin: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Bonnie: SO WORKING WAS NOT A CHOICE FOR THEM, IT WAS AN ABSOLUTE.

HOW DO YOU THINK WOMEN IN CUSTODIAL JOBS AND JOBS WHERE BEING AWAY FROM HOME AND AT A WORKPLACE ARE MANDATORY ARE GOING TO BENEFIT, IF AT ALL, FROM THE PANDEMIC THE WAY WOMEN WHO WORK ON COMPUTERS HAVE BENEFITED?

>> Joann Lublin: I THINK YOU JUST ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION, BONNIE.

THEY ARE NOT.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BENEFIT YOU AND NOT AT ALL?

THERE IS NO WAY?

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, THEY HAVE TO PHYSICALLY BE IN THE BUILDING DURING A PANDEMIC, THEN OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE GREATER HEALTH RISKS.

HOPEFULLY THEY ARE WORKING FOR AN EMPLOYER THAT IS TAKING MEASURES TO MITIGATE THE CHANCES OF THEM GETTING SICK.

BUT I THINK THAT'S ALSO RESULTED IN A FAIR NUMBER OF WOMEN STEPPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE WERE CUTTING THEIR HOURS, EITHER BECAUSE YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE HEALTH RISKS OF COVID OR BECAUSE THEY ARE SO STRETCHED IN TERMS OF HAVING A HANDLE ON HOMESCHOOLING, THAT IT'S REALLY NOT POSSIBLE.

THERE ARE SOME REALLY STARTLING NUMBERS.

WOMEN WITH CHILDREN UNDER 12 HAVE LOST NEARLY 2.2 MILLION JOBS DURING COVID-19, AND THAT IS THREE TIMES THE NUMBER OF THE FATHERS.

>> Bonnie: YES.

AND WE SAW -- I REMEMBER WE DID A STORY NOT TOO LONG AGO ABOUT THE DECEMBER EMPLOYMENT NUMBERS AND DEVELOPMENT -- AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN IN THAT MONTH ALONE HAD LOST I THINK IT WAS 150 OR SO THOUSAND JOBS, WAY MORE THAN WHITE WOMEN OR MEN.

SO YOU DON'T SEE ANY BENEFITS FROM THE PANDEMIC, IF YOU WILL, COMING OUT FOR TEACHERS, FOR CUSTODIAL WOMEN, FOR PEACE EAL WORKERS, FOR EXAMPLE, SEAMSTRESSES WHO COULD POSSIBLY DO SOME OF THEIR WORK AND HOME?

>> Joann Lublin: OH, ABSOLUTELY.

TO THE EXTENT THAT OUR WHOLE SOCIAL MORES HAS CHANGED WHEN IT COMES TO HOW WE VIEW WORK-FROM-HOME JOB I THINK THAT WILL HAVE A BROAD IMPACT IN RESPECTS TO THE TYPE OF PROFESSION URINE OR THE TYPES OF INDUSTRY YOU'RE IN, BECAUSE, I MEAN, LOOK AT THE WHOLE NOTION OF SITDOWN DINING.

THAT HAS UNFORTUNATELY BEEN DEVASTATED BY THE PANDEMIC.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IT'S CREATED A HUGE BOOMING INDUSTRY IN TERMS OF CARRYOUT AND HOME DELIVERY OF FOOD.

>> Bonnie: AND WANT TO GET BACK TO A POINT YOU MADE EARLIER ABOUT MEN AND WOMEN'S DIFFERING VIEWS ON HOW MUCH MEN ARE HELPING WITH CHILDCARE AND HOME CARE.

WHAT YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO GET MEN TO UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH WORK WOMEN CURRENTLY DO INTO PARTICIPATE MORE FULLY IN NOT JUST CHILDCARE, WHICH IS OF COURSE REALLY IMPORTANT, BUT EVEN HOME CARE, EVEN CLEANING UP THE HOME?

>> Joann Lublin: I THINK WHAT IT WILL TAKE IS THIS YOUNGER GENERATION, AND I ALREADY SAW THAT IN THE WOMEN I INTERVIEWED, ESSENTIALLY STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES AND PICKING THE RIGHT LIFE PARTNER IN MAKING SURE AT THE OUTSET OF THE RELATIONSHIP, AT THE POINT WHEN YOU DECIDE TO GET MARRIED OR LIVED TOGETHER, THAT YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE IMPORTANCE OF SHARING, THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT COPARENTING DOES IT MEAN THAT MOM DOES IT ALL AND DAD PICKS UP THE SLACK.

AND IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, THIS WAS SOMETHING MY HUSBAND AND I RECOGNIZE DECADES AGO WHEN WE GOT ENGAGED AND WE DID SO BY DRAWING UP A MARRIAGE CONTRACT.

>> Bonnie: AND DID YOU STICK TO THE CONTRACT AFTER YOU WERE MARRIED?

DID HE STICK TO IT?

>> Joann Lublin: HE SURE DID.

IN FACT, THERE WAS ONLY ONE SENTENCE AND WHAT WE PREPARE FOR THE LAWYER THAT SURVIVED BEING PUT INTO LEGALESE, AND IT WAS A SENTENCE THAT MY HUSBAND WROTE, MY THEN FIANCC THE SENTENCE WAS, HOUSEHOLD DUTIES SHALL BE SHARED EQUALLY, BUT NOT NECESSARILY CHEERFULLY.

[LAUGHTER] >> Bonnie: SO WHAT, THE SECOND CLAUSE WAS TAKEN OUT OF THAT SENTENCE?

>> Joann Lublin: NO, THAT ENTIRE SENTENCE REMAINED.

ALL THE OTHER STUFF THAT WE PUT IN OUR WORDS TO PUT IN THE LEGAL LANGUAGE, THAT ENTIRE SENTENCE IS THE ONLY SENTENCE OF ALL OF THE SENTENCE WE WROTE THAT SURVIVED THE LAWYER PUTTING IN LEGAL LANGUAGE.

>> Bonnie: WHAT TECHNIQUES CAN YOU SUGGEST TO YOUNG WOMEN WHO WANT TO GET MARRIED, YOUNG WOMEN, YOU KNOW, BE IT THE FEMALE OR MALE PARTNERS, AND WANT TO HAVE CAREERS AND WANT THE RELATIONSHIP TO SURVIVE BUT WANT HALF THE WORK DONE BY THE OTHER PARTNER?

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, I DON'T THINK THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT IDEA WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

IT'S RARELY A FORMAL APPROACH.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD NOT BE HAVING SERIOUS CONVERSATIONS AT THE POINT WHEN YOU ARE GETTING SERIOUS ABOUT EACH OTHER.

AND FIND OUT EXACTLY WHERE EVERYBODY'S HEAD IS THAT.

DO YOU WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN?

DO YOU THINK STRONGLY THAT ONE OF US SHOULD STAY HOME?

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT PERHAPS US TAKING TURNS AT BEING STAY-AT-HOME PARENTS?

WHAT'S YOUR FEELINGS AS TO WHO'S CAREER OUGHT TO HAVE PRIORITY IN TERMS OF NOT ONLY WERE WE LIVE, BUT WHAT KIND OF HOURS THAT WE WORK?

AND YOU HAVE TO GET THIS ALL OUT ON THE TABLE, BUT THEN EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO REVISIT THESE SITUATIONS.

BECAUSE, GUESS WHAT?

LIFE CHANGES.

>> Bonnie: EXACTLY.

NOW, TELL ME, THE LAST TIME THERE WAS A FEDERAL LAW ON FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, NOT TO MENTION CHILDCARE, WAS -- >> Joann Lublin: THERE WAS LEGISLATION PASSED WHEN COVID ERUPTED.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

>> Joann Lublin: THAT REQUIRED EMPLOYERS TO PROVIDE PAID FAMILY MEDICAL LEAVE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, INCLUDING INTERRUPTED CHILDCARE.

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT LEGISLATION IS IT EXPIRED AT THE END OF 2020 AND CONGRESS PASSED A NEW LAW, THAT COMPREHENSIVE PACKAGE THAT GOT ENACTED RIGHT AFTER CHRISTMAS, THAT INSTEAD OF MANDATING THIS PROTECTION AND THIS PAID LEAVE, INSTEAD TURNED IT INTO EMPLOYER TAX CREDITS, SO IT'S MUCH MORE VOLUNTARY.

AND THAT LEGISLATION EXPIRES AT THE END OF MARCH.

>> Bonnie: SO WHAT DO YOU -- AGAIN, THEN REVERTING TO THE UNPAID -- THE COVERAGE FOR THAT YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO YOUR JOB BACK AFTER YOU TAKE FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE UNPAID, WHICH WAS PASSED UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.

>> Joann Lublin: CORRECT, CORRECT.

>> Bonnie: BY THEN OF COURSE IS PROBABLY THE MOST PROGRESSIVE -- CERTAINLY PRE-ELECTION, THE MOST PROGRESSIVE PRESIDENT IN TERMS OF WOMEN'S ISSUES THAT WE'VE EVER HAD.

HE PROMISED IN ADVANCE TO TAKE A VP CANDIDATE WHO WAS A WOMAN OF COLOR, ETC., ETC.

SO WHAT DO YOU EXPECT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WITH A BAILEY DEMOCRATIC CONTROLLED CONGRESS WILL BE ABLE TO PUSH THROUGH IN TERMS OF PAID LEAVE, IF ANYTHING?

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, I THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE SURPRISED ON THAT FRONT FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS: NUMBER ONE, THERE WAS A VERY POWERFUL BUSINESS ORGANIZATION, OKAY, CALLED THE BUSINESS ROUNDTABLE, WHICH ACTUALLY SUPPORTS THIS TYPE OF LEGISLATION AND DID SO DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAME UP WITH A VERY WATERED DOWN, WEAK VERSION OF THIS.

AND I WOULD EXPECT THEM TO CONTINUE TO PRESS FOR SUCH LEGISLATION.

AT THE SAME TIME, BIDEN, AS WE KNOW, HAS CERTAINLY EARNED HIS CHOPS IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO TRY AND STRIKE DEALS WITH PEOPLE ACROSS THE AISLE; AND THE THIRD THING IS HE'S ALREADY CREATED A SPECIAL CABINET LEVEL COUNCIL TO CREATE -- TO DEAL WITH GENDER ISSUES AND HAS APPOINTED NOT ONLY NUMEROUS WOMEN TO CABINET LEVEL POSITIONS, BUT MANY OF THEM ARE MOMS.

>> Bonnie: MOMS OF YOUNG CHILDREN TOO.

>> Joann Lublin: YES.

>> Bonnie: SO TELL ME WHAT KIND OF LEGISLATION YOU SEE BEING SIGNED INTO LAW DURING THE NEXT FOUR YEARS TO HELP -- TO HELP -- >> Joann Lublin: WELL, I'M HOPING WE WILL SEE TWO TYPES OF LEGISLATION: NUMBER ONE, WHEN WE JUST TALKED ABOUT WHICH IS BRINGING THE UNITED STATES INTO THE LINEUP OF ALMOST THE ENTIRE REST OF THE INDUSTRIAL WORLD IN TERMS OF PROVIDING PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE, AND IN PARTICULAR PAID LEAVE FOR NEW PARENTS; SECONDLY, I'M HOPING THERE WILL BE SOME KIND OF LEGISLATION THAT MANDATES FEDERAL SUPPORT FOR CHILD CARE FACILITIES.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

NOW, YOU TALK ABOUT PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE.

WHO SHOULD PAY, EMPLOYERS OR SHOULD IT BE ATTACKS ON EMPLOYEES OR COMBINATION OF THE TWO?

>> Joann Lublin: I'M GOING TO LEAVE THAT UP TO THE LAWMAKERS.

>> Bonnie: WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO TOUCH IT?

>> Joann Lublin: JUST BECAUSE I THINK, LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE, IT'S A MATTER OF NEGOTIATION AND COMPROMISE.

AND SO, WHAT I FAVOR, WHICH OBVIOUSLY WOULD BE AN EMPLOYER-SPONSORED FORM OF LEGISLATION, AND WHAT ACTUALLY COULD GET THROUGH A, YOU KNOW, VERY DIVIDED SENATE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

IDEALS AND REALITY.

>> Bonnie: DID YOU LOOK AT THE STATES AND THEIR VERY -- THINK THEY ARE SOMETHING LIKE, SOMETHING UNDER 20 STATES THAT HAVE ALREADY PASSED PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE -- >> Joann Lublin: AND THERE ARE SOME CITIES AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

AND I REMEMBER WHEN CALIFORNIA FIRST PASSED IT.

IT ONLY PAID I THINK -- I BELIEVE 55 PERCENT OF THE WOMAN'S SALARY.

THEREFORE, VERY FEW WOMEN WERE ABLE TO AFFORD TO TAKE THAT LEAVE.

SO HOW HAS IT PROGRESSED SINCE THEN?

THAT WAS MANY YEARS AGO.

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, MY BOOK DOES TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE ABOUT 20+ STATES THAT ARE -- PUT THIS LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKOT ALL OF THEM HAVE TAKEN EFFECT YET.

THERE ARE MANY CASES BEING PHASED IN.

BY THE SAME TOKEN, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT OF PAY THAT THE INDIVIDUAL TAKING THE FMLA CAN GET.

THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD TO SETTLE AND COMPROMISE TO GET THE LEGISLATION PASSED.

BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, AS WE SAW WITH THE WORK FROM HOME EXPERIMENT, IF THAT WORKS, THEN WE CAN HOPEFULLY IMPROVE THE LEGISLATION GOING DOWN THE ROAD.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF -- FOR PARENTAL SHARING OF WORK IN AMERICA?

>> Joann Lublin: WHAT I LEARNED FROM READING THIS BOOK IS THAT WE'VE MADE HUGE PROGRESS BETWEEN THE BOOMER GENERATION AND THE GEN X/MILLENNIAL GENERATION WORKING MOMS.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

AND THE BURDEN OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD NOT FALL ON THE ALREADY WEARY SHOULDERS OF PARENTS.

THE BURDEN THAT RESPONSIBILITY FALLS ON THE SHOULDERS OF EMPLOYERS AND UPON OUR GOVERNMENT ELECTED OFFICIALS.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU THINK THAT A LOT OF THE PROGRESS THAT WE HAVE MADE, THOUGH, IS DUE ALMOST ENTIRELY TO TECHNOLOGY?

>> Joann Lublin: ABSOLUTELY.

IF IT WERE NOT FOR TECHNOLOGY, WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE SUCCESSFUL WORK FROM HOME EXPERIMENT.

YOU JUST CAN'T WORK FROM HOME IF YOU DON'T HAVE A WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR COLLEAGUE.

>> Bonnie: SO I WONDER, WHERE IS TECHNOLOGY GOING TO TAKE US IN THE FUTURE?

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS ALREADY 3D VIDEO.

IS THERE SOME WAY THAT TECHNOLOGY WILL ALLOW WOMEN WHO HAVE JOBS, YOU KNOW, LOW-PAYING JOBS WHERE THEY MUST BE PRESENT TO PERFORM THEM, SUCH AS WAITRESSES, SUCH AS GOD KNOWS WHAT, TO REMOTELY PERFORM THOSE DUTIES?

I CAN IMAGINE, FOR EXAMPLE, TRAIN SETS AND RESTAURANTS DELIVERING MEALS TO TABLES AS OPPOSED TO WAITRESSES, THAT THEY SIT AT HOME AND TAKEN THE ORDER, THEY PUNCH IT INTO THE CHEF AND IT ARRIVES AT THE TABLE, THAT SORT OF THING?

>> Joann Lublin: I THINK ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, AND ESPECIALLY SINCE TECHNOLOGY IS CHANGING SO RAPIDLY.

YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO BE ALL DOING -- SELF DRIVING CARS WITHIN A FEW YEARS> Bonnie: AND SOME OF US WILL BE LIVING ON MARS COMMUTING FROM HOME.

>> Joann Lublin: WELL, THERE YOU GO.

>> Bonnie: SO -- >> Joann Lublin: I'M VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FUTURE.

I BELIEVE THAT THE GLASS IS HALF-FULL, NOT HALF-EMPTY.

BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S BECAUSE MEN AND WOMEN ALIKE RECOGNIZE THAT PARENTING IS AN IMPORTANT ROLE AND AN ENJOYABLE ROLE TO PLAY, AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO SACRIFICE ONE FOR THE OTHER IN TERMS OF WORK VERSUS FAMILY.

>> Bonnie: WONDERFUL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, JOANN LUBLIN, OF THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND THE AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK, b EXECUTIVE MOTHERS NAVIGATE WORK AND LIFE.b ALL GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND SUCCESS WITH YOUR NEW BOOK.

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