>> Layla Saad: WHITE SUPREMACY IS THIS HUGE INSTITUTION THE SEED BELIEF OF IT IS THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR TO PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES, AND THEREFORE THEY DESERVE TO DOMINATE OVER PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES IN ALL KINDS OF WAY.

AND SO THE WORK IS ACTUALLY ABOUT UNDOING THAT BELIEF.

>> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM A BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

THIS WEEK, WE CONTINUE OUR WOMEN THOUGHT LEADERS SERIES WITH AUTHOR LAYLA SAAD.

SAAD EXPLORES RACE, IDENTITY, AND SOCIAL CHANGE ON HER WEEKLY PODCAST AND NEW BOOK, "ME AND WHITE SUPREMACY".

WELCOME, LAYLA.

>> Layla Saad: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, BONNIE.

>> Bonnie: I'M HAPPY TO.

SO HAPPY FOR YOU, FOR ALL YOUR SUCCESS.

TELL ME ABOUT "ME AND WHITE SUPREMACY."

HOW DID IT START?

HOW HAVE YOU DEVELOPED IT?

>> Layla Saad: "ME AND WHITE SUPREMACY" HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLE JOURNEY.

BUT IF YOU HAD LOOKED AT MY CAREER EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO, YOU KNOW, I WAS NOT DOING THIS WORK.

I WAS DOING SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

I WAS A LIFE COACH, AS A BUSINESS COACH, I WORKED WITH WOMEN THROUGHb FTEN THROUGH A SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE.

IT JUST SO HAPPENED A LOT OF MY CLIENTS WERE ACTUALLY WHITE.

SO THAT WAS MY WORK FOR A REALLY, REALLY LONG TIME.

BUT THEN IN 2017, SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT SHIFTED EVERYTHING FOR ME AND THAT GOT ME DARTED ON THIS TRAJECTORY TO DO ANTIRACISM WORK.

AND THAT THING THAT HAPPENED WAS THE UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA IN AUGUST 2017.OU ARE MAMBO, BONNIE, SAYING THE IMAGES, RIGHT?

>> Bonnie: AND THE DEATH OF THE WOMAN.

>> Layla Saad: HORRIFYING.

WHAT STRUCK ME WAS SEEING THE IMAGES FROM THE NEWS OF THOSE MEN WALKING IN THE STREETS.

THIS ONE PARTICULAR MAN WHO WAS JUST SCREAMING I GUESS A RACIAL SLUR.

BUT IT WAS A LOOK OF ABSOLUTE HATRED AND VITRIOL IN HIS EYES THAT HAD ME REALIZED THAT THAT HATE IS DIRECTED AT ME, PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE MEND I JUST NEED TO CHANNEL THAT INTO SOMETHING.

I JUST HAD ALL OF THESE FEELINGS ABOUT IT.

AND SO, I SAT DOWN AND WROTE AN ARTICLE AND I PUBLISHED IT.

IT WAS CALLED, "I NEED TO TALK TO SPIRITUAL WHITE WOMEN ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY."

IT WAS ADDRESSED TO THE WHITE WOMEN I HAD BEEN SERVING AS A LIFE COACH AND BUSINESS COACH.

AND I WAS TRYING TO SAY, LOOK, WE HAVE THIS GLARING, BIG PROBLEM IN THE INDUSTRY WERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THE WORLD, HELPING PEOPLE, BUT WE DON'T LOOK AT RACISM, NOT REALLY INCLUDING BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN THE CONVERSATION.

I WAS LIKE, THIS IS A MERE I AM HOLDING UP TO YOU.

SO THAT STARTED THE CONVERSATION FOR ME OF DOING THIS VERY PUBLIC WORK ABOUT ANTIRACISM.

AND THEN FAST FORWARD A YEAR LATER, I BEGAN BECOMING REALLY CURIOUS.

WANTED TO KNOW WHAT PEOPLE HAD LEARNED ABOUT THEMSELVES AND WHITE SUPREMACY SINCE WE WERE HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AND SO, ONE NIGHT I'M TRYING TO SLEEP IN MY HUSBAND IS IN THE BED NEXT TO ME SNORING.

I CANNOT SLEEP.

IT'S 2:00 A.M. AND I GRABBED MY PHONE AND STARTED WRITING NOTES IN MY PHONE.

WHAT IF THEY LEARNED ABOUT THEMSELVES AND WHITE SUPREMACY?

AND I WAS GOING TO POST IT ON INSTAGRAM, JUST A QUESTION.

THEN I STARTED THINKING, WELL, WHAT IS WHITE SUPREMACY?T'S A VERY BIG THING.

IT'S TONE POLICING, ITS CULTURAL APPROPRIATION, WHITE FEMINISM, WHITE FRAGILITY, WHITE PRIVILEGE.

AND SO, I STARTED CREATING THIS LIST OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

I HAD DOZENS OF THEM.

AND SO, I REALIZE THIS IS MORE THAN JUST A SINGLE POST.

THIS IS AN ENTIRE JOURNEY THAT HE WANTED TO LEAD PEOPLE THROUGH OF ASKING THESE QUESTIONS.

SO I THREW IT UP ONLINE.

I WAS LIKE TOMORROW WE START A 28 DAY JOURNEY TO EXAMINE YOU, YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE, YOUR COMPLICITY IN WHITE SUPREMACY.

COME AND TELL THE TRUTH AND GO ON THIS JOURNEY WITH ME.

AND WE DID.

YOU KNOW, STARTED UNDER THE #HASHTAG MEANDWHITESUPREMACYAND YOU KNOW, I STARTED THE CHALLENGE I HAD 19,000 FOLLOWERS.

BY THE END OF IT, THAT NUMBER HAD MORE THAN DOUBLED.

AND NOW, YOU KNOW, OVER 100,000 PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN THE CHALLENGE AND DONE THE WORK.

>> Bonnie: LET'S GET TO THE RESPONSIBLE RESPONSE IS IN A MOMENT.

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR IRRESPONSIBLE RESPONSES?

HAVE YOU HAD DEATH THREATS?

>> Layla Saad: I HAVEN'T HAD DEATH THREATS YET, BUT I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF THEY CAME, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THE BOOK IS GOING TO BE OUT IN THE WORLD IN A BIG WAY.

YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO BE AVAILABLE TO BUY TO LISTEN AS AN AUDIOBOOK, BUT CERTAINLY HAVE HAD A LOT OF NEGATIVE RESPONSES AND FEEDBACK.

AND I THINK THAT COMES WITH THE TERRITORY OF BEING A BLACK WOMAN, BLACK MUSLIM WOMAN WHO HAS A VOICE WHO IS SPEAKING ON VERY CHALLENGING TOPIC AND SOMETHING THAT'S VERY CONFRONTING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I'VE HAD VERY VILE COMMENTS AND VERY VILE EMAILS SENT TO ME.

I'VE HAD TO b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: DID YOU TURN THEM TO AUTHORITIES?

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THEM?

>> Layla Saad: WHAT I DO IS b ÃÃ IN THE BEGINNING I DID NOT HAVE AN ASSISTANT.

I DID NOT NEED ONE.

I FIRST STARTED WRITING, "I NEED TO TALK TO SPIRITUAL WHITE WOMEN."

I HAD A VERY SMALL, YOU KNOW, EMAIL LIST OF JUST 400 PEOPLE, I JUST DID EVERYTHING MYSELF.

BUT AS SOON AS THOSE EMAILS STARTED POURING IN, I REALIZED I NEED A GATEKEEPER.

SO I HAVE AN ASSISTANT AND I ASKED HER NOT TO SEND ME ANY OF THESE EMAILS AND JUST TO DELETE THEM.

SO THAT THAT'S WHAT I DO WITH THAT.

DURING THE CHALLENGE ITSELF, THOUGH, WE HAD A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO DERAIL WHAT WE WERE DOING.

>> Bonnie: HOW?> Layla Saad: THEY FELT THAT I WAS TRYING TO SOMEHOW MASS BRAINWASH WHITE PEOPLE INTO HATING THEMSELVES.

AND SO, THEY WOULD COME INTO EVERY DAY THAT WE WOULD DO THE CHALLENGE AND JUST WRITE ALL OF THESE COMMENTS AND I WOULD HAVE TO b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: WHERE THEY COMING FROM POLITICALLY?

I MEAN, WITH A WHITE SUPREMACISTS OR WERE THEY JUST PEOPLE WHO SAID, YOU KNOW, I'M A FEMINIST, BUT I'M NOT b ÃÃI DON'T HAVE WHITE PRIVILEGE.

WHY DO YOU -- >> Layla Saad: GOOD QUESTION.

OFTENTIMES, THESE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO SHOW UP AS THEMSELVES.

SO THEY WILL USE A MASK TO COUNT.

THEY WILL NOT PUT THEIR PICTURE THERE, THEY WILL NOT HAVE THEIR FACE THERE.

SO WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

AND SO, THEY DON'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO SHOW UP AND STAND FOR WHAT THEY, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY ARE REALLY SAYING.

IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHO THEY ARE, BUT OFTENTIMES THE PLACE IT WAS COMING FROM WAS A VERY ANTI-BLACK, ISLAMIC PHOBIC, VERY WHITE WING, NOT NECESSARILY PROGRESSIVE.

THOSE WHO ARE b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: TO ALL PROGRESSIVES FALL IN WITH YOU?

>> Layla Saad: NO, NO.

YOU KNOW, IN THIS BOOK IS DEFINITELY FOR EVERYONE WHO HAS WHITE PRIVILEGE TO DO, BUT NOT EVERYONE IS OPEN TO THE CONVERSATION YET.

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SEE THEMSELVES AS WOKE ALREADY, LIKE, BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE ANTI-RACIST.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THE EXCEPTION, I'M ONE OF THE GOOD ONES.

SO WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO THIS?

OR THEY BELIEVE I'M COLORBLIND OR I, YOU KNOW, I HAVE A BLACK FRIEND OR PERSON OF COLOR WHO'S A FAMILY MEMBER.

SO THEY DON'T THINK THAT THEY HAVE TO DO THE WORK.

THEY MAY THINK OTHER WHITE PEOPLE TO DO THE WORK, BUT NOT THEM.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

LET'S GET INTO b ÃÃTELL ME WHAT IS THE WORK THAT PEOPLE WITH WHITE PRIVILEGE MEETING ALL WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TO DO?

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

SO WHITE SUPREMACY IS A HUGE INSTITUTION.

IT'S SYSTEMIC, AND IT'S GLOBALISM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

AND PEOPLE OFTEN FEEL LIKE, WHO AM I TO BE ABLE TO EFFECT ANY KIND OF CHANGE?

I'M NOT A POLITICAL LEADER.

I DON'T HAVE A PLATFORM.

I DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF POWER THAT I CAN ACTUALLY CHANGE THINGS IN A SUBSTANTIVE WAY.

BUT WHAT WHITE SUPREMACY IS IT THE SEED BELIEF OF IT IS THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR TO PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES, AND THEREFORE THEY DESERVE TO DOMINATE OVER PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES IN ALL KINDS OF WAY.

SO THE WORK IS ACTUALLY ABOUT UNDOING THE BELIEF, THAT I AM SUPERIOR TO PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES IN THE WAY I PRESENT THIS THROUGH "ME AND WHITE SUPREMACY", TAKE PEOPLE THROUGH A 28 DAY JOURNEY OF LOOKING AT DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WHITE SUPREMACY, HOW THEY ENACT IT IN THEIR PERSONAL LIFE'S, GETTING TO ASK CRITICAL LIVES TO REALLY EXAMINE, WHY DO ACTUALLY DO THAT?

WHAT IS IT THAT I ACTUALLY BELIEVE?

BECAUSE PEOPLE OFTEN THINK THAT THEY HAVE b ÃÃTHEY OFTEN ARE AWARE OF THEIR CONSCIOUS BELIEFS, NOT AWARE OF THEIR UNCONSCIOUS BELIEFS.

THEY ARE CONSCIOUSLY CHOSEN BELIEFS, BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS, YOU KNOW, THOSE WHO ARE, YES, I'M ANTIRACIST, THEY BELIEVE IT IS WRONG TO TREAT PEOPLE DIFFERENTLY OF DIFFERENT RACES.

IT'S WRONG TO DO THAT.

BUT UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE, AT SOME LEVEL, THEY BELIEVE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE LESSER THAN ME.

SO WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE THEY ARE LESS THAN ME.

WHAT I WANT PEOPLE TO DO IS GO BEYOND THE CONSCIOUS THOUGHT TO GET TO THE UNCONSCIOUS THOUGHT AND START WORKING ON THAT AND CREATE CHANGE FROM WITHIN.

>> Bonnie: SO WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE THEIR UNCONSCIOUS THOUGHTS ARE?

WHY IS SOMEBODY GETTING AHEAD b ÃÃYOU KNOW, I JUST LOST A PROMOTION TO AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

AND SO, WHAT KIND OF STUFF DOES THAT TRIGGER IN A WHITE PERSON'S HEAD IN TERMS OF WHITE, YOU KNOW, WHITE PRIVILEGE?

>> Layla Saad: IT'S INTERESTING DOING THE CHALLENGE BECAUSE I GOT TO SEE ALL OF WHAT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

SO ONE OF THE DAYS THAT WAS VERY HARD FOR ME WAS THE DAY ON YOU AND BLACK WOMEN.

AND I ASK PEOPLE TO CONSIDER WHAT THEY REALLY THINK ABOUT BLACK WOMEN.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT CAME UP WERE VERY INTERESTING.

THE FIRST CONSCIOUS THOUGHT WAS I ADMIRE BLACK WOMEN.

I THINK THAT THEY ARE SO POWERFUL, THEY ARE BLACK GIRL MAGIC, I'M JEALOUS OF THEM, EVEN.

BUT WHEN WE FORCE THEM TO GO DEEPER AND REALLY EXAMINE, THINGS CAME OUT SUCH AS I FEEL THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE AGGRESSIVE AND SCARY.

I'M SURPRISED WHEN I SEE A BLACK WOMAN IN A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP.

I WONDER HOW SHE GOT THERE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ACT AROUND A BLACK WOMAN.

I'M EITHER STEPPING AWAY FROM HER OR HIM TRYING TO MAKE HER BE MY FRIEND, AND I DON'T DO THAT WITH WHITE WOMEN.

I KNOW HOW TO BE WITH WHITE WOMEN IN A WAY THAT'S NATURAL.

AND SO, THAT'S WHAT'S UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE.

>> Bonnie: VERY, VERY INTERESTING.

WHITE PRIVILEGE ITSELF IS A PRETTY PRICKLY TERM.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF POOR WHITES IN AMERICA.

>> Layla Saad: YES.

>> Bonnie: AND IN ENGLAND TOO WHERE YOU ARE ORIGINALLY FROM.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT SAY, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP IN A TRAILER PARK.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: I HAD TO WORK MY BEHIND OFF TO GET INTO COLLEGE.

I HAD FRIENDS OF ALL COLORS.

I SAW AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND HISPANIC KIDS MY SAME AGE GET INTO BETTER SCHOOLS BECAUSE OF THEIR RACES, AND THERE IS A SUPREME COURT RULE THAT AS LONG AS IT'S ONE OF MANY ISSUES THAT THE SCHOOL CONSIDERS, IT CAN BE -- RACE CAN BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN ADMITTING TO PEOPLE b ÃÃADMITTING TO PEOPLE TO COLLEGE.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: SO YOU b ÃÃLET'S SAY YOU RUN INTO ONE OF THEM.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: CAN YOU SAY THEY STILL HAVE HAD WHITE PRIVILEGE?

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION BECAUSE THE WORD PRIVILEGE REALLY DOES TRIGGER PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE I HAVEN'T LIVED PRIVILEGED LIFE, RIGHT?

OR I GREW UP AS POOR, I DID NOT HAVE ALL THOSE THINGS.

SO I STRUGGLEDHE KEY THING TO REMEMBER HERE IS YOU STRUGGLED BUT YOUR STRUGGLE IS NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE WHITE.

YOUR STRUGGLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR RACE.

IT HAD TO DO WITH OTHER THINGS, BUT IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF YOUR RACE AND THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOU WILL HAVE EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE POOR b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: MAYBE IT WAS, THOUGH.

>> Layla Saad: ON A MASS LEVEL, YES.

>> Bonnie: BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M 65 YEARS OLD.

MY FATHER, MY MOTHER b ÃÃWHEN MY PARENTS MET, MY BIRTH MOTHER DIED WHEN I WAS A-YEAR-OLD.

SO IT WAS MY STEPMOTHER.

SHE WAS AT SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE AND MY FATHER WAS A POOR KID FROM BROOKLYN AND WE WERE LIVING b ÃÃAND THEY WERE COMMUTING, WHICH WAS A LONG WAY TO SEE EACH OTHER.

MY FATHER TRIED TO GET AN APARTMENT IN WESTCHESTER COUNTY WHERE HER COLLEGE WAS.

NO JEWS ALLOWED.

YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD GO, THEY WOULD TRY TO RENT.

THEY WERE TOLD IT WAS TAKEN IN THE NEXT DAY IT WAS IN THE NEWSPAPER AGAIN IN THE CLASSIFIEDS.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: THAT KIND OF THING.

>> Layla Saad: YES.

>> Bonnie: SOMETIMES IT IS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AMERICA HAS A TERRIBLE HISTORY WITH, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD SAY IT'S HISPANICS DO YEAH.

>> Bonnie: BUT RIGHT AFTER b ÃÃ JUST BEFORE THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY AND REALLY RIGHT AFTER WHEN THE GREAT WAVES OF IMMIGRATION WERE ITALIANS AND JEWS, THEY WERE NOT WHITE WASPS OR WHITE.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: SOMETIMES EVEN CATHOLICS WEREN'T WHITE, WHITE CATHOLICS.

SO WE HAVE A HISTORY OF EXCLUDING CERTAIN GROUPS, IN FACT LARGER GROUPS OF WHITE PEOPLE THAN THERE ARE WASPS IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Layla Saad: I WOULD SAY, I MEAN, I THINK THE EXAMPLE THAT YOU GAVE OF IT WAS NO JEWS, RIGHT?

SO IT WAS SPECIFICALLY NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE WHITE, IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS.

BUT IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY, CERTAINLY THERE HAS BEEN THIS EVOLVING DEFINITION OF WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE WHITE?

RACE IS NOT A REAL BIOLOGICAL FACT.

IT'S A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.

AND OVER THE YEARS, WHO HAS BEEN COUNTERED AS WHITE HAS EVOLVED OVER TIME.

IT'S DIFFERENT NOW THAN IT WAS IN THE PAST.

AND SO, WHAT PEOPLE IN THE MODERN DAY NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS WHITE SUPREMACY HAS SET THINGS UP IN SUCH A WAY THAT IF YOU ARE SEEN AS WHITE OR YOU PASS AS WHITE, YOU WILL BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY, BETTER THAN IF YOU ARE SEEN AS BLACK OR BROWN.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY AND FEMINISM.

OF COVER THE MOVEMENT SINCE THE '70s AND '80s AND THERE WAS CERTAINLY A BIG ISSUE IN THE MOVEMENT, I WOULD SAY, STARTING 10 OR 20 YEARS AFTER SECOND WAVE FEMINISM, AFTER BETTY FRIEDEN AND GLORIA STEINEM OF, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE SOJOURNER TRUTH THING OF RIPPING HER SHIRT OPEN AND WRITING AIN'T BY A WOMAN.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: AND THERE WERE SOME AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN, NOT AS MANY AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN, NOT AS MANY, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE SHIRLEY CHISHOLM WHO RAN FOR PRESIDENT, THERE WAS A BIG PROTEST AND PARADED WITH FEMINISTS.

DOROTHY HEIGHT WAS b ÃÃTHERE WERE SOME, BUT THERE CERTAINLY WERE NOT EQUAL NUMBERS.

SO TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

OUR FEMINISTS b ÃÃARE WHITE FEMINISTS PRIVILEGED IN YOUR MIND?

>> Layla Saad: SO I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHEN WE SAY WHITE FEMINISTS OR WHITE FEMINISM, WHAT THAT MEANS, BECAUSE THAT CAN BE A TRIGGERING TERM FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WHITE FEMINISM DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE A FEMINIST WHO HAPPENS TO BE WHITE.

WHITE FEMINISM IS ACTUALLY A FEMINISM THAT CENTERS ONLY AT THE INTERSECTION OR THE SECTION OF GENDER ONLY, AND OFTEN WHO IT SERVES IS WHITE WOMEN, OFTEN WOMEN WHO ARE CISGENDER AND HETEROSEXUAL AS WELL.

SO WHITE FEMINISM IS A FEMINISM THAT SAYS LET'S ONLY FOCUS ON OUR STRUGGLES INTO PATRIARCHY AND SEXISM.

WE WILL DEAL WITH RACISM AND ALL THE OTHER ISMS AFTER WE HAVE FIGURED THIS OUT.

A LOT OF BLACK WOMEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR STRUGGLE WITH FEMINISM, WITH THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT, WITH THE SISTERHOOD BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'VE HAD TO CHOP PARTS OF THEMSELVES OFF IN ORDER TO FIT IN.

IT CERTAINLY, FOR ME, HOW I FELT WHEN IN HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH WHITE WOMEN, WHEN THEY HAVE SAID TO ME, DON'T HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS BECAUSE YOUR CAUSING DIVISION, LET US ONLY FOCUS ON GENDER.

AND THEN WE WILL b ÃÃBECAUSE THAT'S THE UNITING THING, IS THAT WE ARE BOTH WOMEN, RIGHT?

SO FOR ME, I'M LIKE, YEAH, I'M A WOMAN BUT I'M ALSO A BLACK WOMAN I'M NOT A WOMAN AND THEN BLACK.

I'M BLACK AND WOMAN SIMULTANEOUSLY.

IF THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT ISN'T TAKE ALL THAT INTO ACCOUNT, MY ENTIRE HUMANITY DOES NOT REALLY FULLY GET SERVED.

SO WHAT WHITE FEMINISM DOES IS IT ACTUALLY CONTINUES TO PERPETUATE WHITE SUPREMACY BECAUSE IT PRIMARILY SERVES WHITE WOMEN, WHICH MEANS IT SAYS WHITE WOMEN ARE SUPERIOR TO WOMEN OF OTHER RACES, WHICH IS WHAT RIGHT TO PRIVACY IS.

>> Bonnie: WHAT SHOULD WOMEN OF COLOR WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES FEMINISTS DO?

SHOULD THEY FORM THEIR OWN ORGANIZATIONS?HAT IS YOUR ADVICE TO THEM?

>> Layla Saad: WELL, WOMEN OF COLOR WHO ARE FEMINISTS HAVE ALREADY BEEN DOING IT FOR A LONG TIME.

>> Bonnie: THAT'S THE THING.

PART OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO ME SINCE I CONVERSATIONS THAT WERE HAD 20 YEARS AGO, BUT NOW YOU'VE HAD AN ASIAN AMERICAN AND AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN CURRENTLY HEAD OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: INFORMER, I BELIEVE A FORMER HEAD OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD WHO WAS AFRICAN-AMERICAN WHO WAS FABULOUS AND LASTED FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS.

SO WHAT SHOULD b ÃÃI'M THINKING YOU ARE MAYBE A LITTLE b ÃÃTHOSE CONVERSATIONS HAPPENED A LOT MORE 20, 30 YEARS AGO.

>> Layla Saad: THEY ARE STILL HAPPENING TODAY, UNFORTUNATELY.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEY ARE STILL HAPPENING TODAY.

>> Bonnie: WHY DOES CHANGE TAKES SO DANG LONG?

>> Layla Saad: IT DOES!

I REMEMBER READING, ONE OF MY FAVORITE WRITERS AND LEADERS AS AUDREY LORD.

I REMEMBER READING HER BOOK, "SISTER OUTSIDER."

I REMEMBER THINKING SHE COULD BE HERE TODAY SAYING THESE EXACT THINGS AND THAT MADE ME REALLY, REALLY SAD.

>> Bonnie: SO WHEN YOU TALK TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH YOUR PROGRAM, HOW DO THEY CHANGE?

HOW DO YOU CHANGE THEM?

>> Layla Saad: JUST, THE TRANSFORMATION HAS BEEN SO INCREDIBLE.

FOR A FEW EXAMPLES, BECAUSE I THINK IT CAN BE HELPFUL FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE IN REAL LIFE, THERE ARE PARENTS WHO ARE WHITE WHO HAVE CHILDREN WHO ARE BIRACIAL, THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STAND UP FOR THEIR KIDS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED RACISM IN A WAY THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEFORE.

I REMEMBER I RECEIVED AN EMAIL FROM A BLACK WOMAN b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: THAT'S INTERESTING, A WOMAN WITH A BIRACIAL CHILD, IS SHE STILL A WHITE SUPREMACIST?

OR WHITE PRIVILEGED?

I'M SORRY.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH, SHE STILL b ÃÃAS LONG AS WHITE SUPREMACY IS IN.

PLACE, SHE STILL OWNS WHITE PRIVILEGE BUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

SO WHAT SHE WOULD'VE DONE IN THE PAST, HER CHILD FACED BULLYING IN SCHOOL AND ANOTHER KID DID NOT WANT TO PLAY WITH HER BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HER SKIN.

HER CHILD CAME HOME AND TOLD HER.

IN THE PAST, SHE SAID SHE WOULD NOT HAVE SAID ANYTHING BECAUSE HER INCLINATION IS IT DON'T ROCK THE BOAT, DON'T MAKE THINGS UNCOMFORTABLE, DON'T SPEAK TO THE OTHER PARENT.

SHE SAID I DID THE WORK AND REALIZE, HOW COULD I NOT?

RIGHT?O SHE WENT AND THEY HAD A VERY DIFFICULT, CHALLENGING CONVERSATION.

BUT ULTIMATELY, SHE WAS ABLE TO STAND UP FOR HER CHILD NO WAY SHE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BEFORE.

ANOTHER FAMILY SITUATION, BLACK WOMAN WHOSE EX-HUSBAND WAS WHITE AND THEY HAVE A BIRACIAL CHILD, SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, BEFORE YOUR WORK, BEING ABLE TO RAISE A CHILD WAS VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE MY WHITE EX-HUSBAND COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN I WOULD TALK ABOUT RACISM AND WHEN I WOULD TALK ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO PREPARE OUR CHILD.

HE DID THE WORKBOOK, AND NOW IT'S FACILITATED A WHOLE DIFFERENT KIND OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN USND SO, THEY ARE ABLE TO COPARENT, EVEN HIS DIVORCED PARENTS, COPARENT IN A MUCH BETTER WAY FOR THE CHILD.

SO THINGS LIKE THAT JUST LIKE MOVE ME SO MUCH.

>> Bonnie: YOU TALK IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT BECOMING GOOD ANCESTORS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

FESTIVAL, I WANT TO SAY WITH THAT COMES FROM FOR ME, BECAUSE WHEN I STARTED DOING THIS WORK WITH THE I NEED TO TALK TO SPIRITUAL WHITE WITH WOMEN LETTER, I WAS VERY SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, IMMERSED IN THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE IT WENT VIRAL VERY QUICKLY.

I WAS NOT REALLY PREPARED FOR THE BACKLASH THAT I WOULD GET IN THE PROTEST IN THE RESISTANCE.

AND SO, I GOT BURNED OUT VERY QUICKLY.

AND SO, IN CHOOSING TO CONTINUE THIS WORK IN CHOOSING TO FOLLOW THIS CALLING OF DOING THIS WORK, I NEEDED SOMETHING GREATER THAN MYSELF TO PULL ME FORWARD.

WHY AM I DOING THIS?

>> Bonnie: WHO YOU ARE THE LAPTOP IN A DOUGH HALL WHERE YOU LIVE, TOTALLY ISOLATED FROM WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE UK OR THE EU OR THE UNITED STATES OR AUSTRALIA, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE COUNTRIES WHERE YOU HAVE QUITE A BIT OF FOCUS.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: THAT MUST'VE BEEN REALLY HARD.

BUT PLEASE FINISH.

>> Layla Saad: YEAH.

VERY HARD.

AND IMPACTED MY ENERGY AND IT WAS IMPACTING, YOU KNOW, HOW I WAS ABLE TO SHOW UP AS A WIFE AND MOTHER AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BECAUSE WERE SO INTERCONNECTED THESE DAYS WITH THE INTERNET, YOU KNOW, THAT EVERY TIME I WOULD OPEN MY PHONE, THERE WOULD BE SOMETHING THERE.

AND SO, THAT ALMOST BROUGHT ME OUT.

BUT THIS IDEA OF BECOMING A GOOD ANCESTOR BECAME THE THING THAT PULLS ME FORWARD.

I'M NOT GOING TO DO THIS JUST FOR ME NOW, I'M DOING IT FOR MY CHILDREN, FOR MY CHILDREN'S CHILDREN.

I DON'T WANT ANY BLACK CHILD TO FEEL THAT THEY ARE INFERIOR AND I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO LIVE IN A WORLD THAT TREATS THEM AS SUCH.

AND SO, I TALKED TO PEOPLE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HELPED ME AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO HOLD WHITE PRIVILEGE, DOING THIS WORK IS REALLY, REALLY CHALLENGING.

AT THE END, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY b ÃÃYOU DON'T GET LIKE AN AWARD FOR DOING IT, RIGHT?

THE PAYOFF IS THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE AND YOU HAVE TO LOSE PRIVILEGE.

SO WHY DO IT?

AND SO, THE WAY THAT I TRY TO INSPIRE PEOPLE TO DO THE WORK IS YOU CAN CREATE A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD RIGHT NOW IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO THIS WORK, YOU CHANGE THE TRAJECTORY FOR EVERYBODY.

AND SO THAT'S WHY DO THIS WORK.

> Bonnie: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE IS NO AWARD AND SOMETIMES THERE MAY BE LOSSES, SHOULD WHITE PEOPLE STEP ASIDE WHEN THERE WAS A BLACK CANDIDATE FOR A JOB THEY BOTH WANT AND THE WHITE PERSON GETS IT?

>> Layla Saad: I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING PEOPLE TO DO.

I THINK WHAT I'M ASKING PEOPLE TO DO IS TO BE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT RACISM DOES EXIST, THAT YOU ARE b ÃÃYOU WILL BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN YOUR PEER WHO IS A DIFFERENT COLOR AND NOT TO DENY IT, NOT TO SAY THINGS LIKE I'M COLORBLIND OR RACISM DOESN'T EXIST WHERE THE REASON THEY HAVE NOT GOT AHEAD IS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AS GOOD AS ME.

>> Bonnie: AND LAST QUESTION: WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME.

YOU KNOW, THIS COULD TAKE FOREVER.

BUT DOES WHITE PRIVILEGE EXTEND TO, SAY, ASIAN AMERICANS, WEALTHY ASIAN AMERICANS?

THERE ARE PLENTY OF THEM.

AND THEY ARE BANDING TOGETHER POLITICALLY AND IN MANY WAYS.

I JUST TAKE THEM AS ONE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, BUT DOES WHITE PRIVILEGE AND OWNING UP TO IT, IS IT MORE THAN JUST WHITE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO DO IT?

>> Layla Saad: I'M GOING TO SEPARATE TWO THINGS: WEALTH IN CLASS IS ITS OWN PRIVILEGE, AND THAT'S NOT WHITE PRIVILEGE, THAT'S ECONOMIC PRIVILEGE.

BUT CERTAINLY, THERE HAS BEEN A WAY IN WHICH BEING ABLE TO MAYBE PASS AS WHITE OR BEING ABLE TO ASSIMILATE AND OTHER KINDS OF WAYS COMES WITH A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PRIVILEGE.

BUT HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT THAT THOSE PEOPLE ALSO ARE IMPACTED BY RIGHTS OF PRIVACY IN WAYS THAT ARE VERY HARMFUL.

>> Bonnie: AND WHAT SHOULD THEY DO ABOUT IT?

>> Layla Saad: I ALSO INVITE PEOPLE WHO b ¦¦ >> Bonnie: TO JOIN YOUR PROGRAM.

>> Layla Saad: WHEN I TALK ABOUT WHO IT'S FOR, I SAY IT'S FOR PEOPLE WHO HOLD WHITE PRIVILEGE, NOT FOR WHITE PEOPLE.

AND WHO I INCLUDED THAT IS, CAN YOU PASS AS WHITE?

I SPOKE TO A WOMAN WHO YESTERDAY WHO IS PALESTINIAN.

SHE SAID THANK YOU FOR THAT, BECAUSE I'M FULLY PALESTINIAN.

UNLESS I TELL YOU, YOU DON'T KNOW.

I HAVE TO DO THE WORK TOO.

>> Bonnie: WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT ARIANA GRANDE, WHO HAS A LATINO NAME.

SHE LOOKS VERY WHITE.

>> Layla Saad: YES.

SO, YOU KNOW, FOR A VERY LONG TIME, I THOUGHT ARIANA GRANDE WAS A WOMAN OF COLOR, AND THAT'S BECAUSE SHE USES MAKEUP THAT MAKES HER LOOK RACIALLY AMBIGUOUS, AND I THINK THAT'S SOMEONE WHO PLAYS THAT LINE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, BENEFIT OFF OF BLACK OR BROWN CULTURE BUT STILL WHO HAS WHITE PRIVILEGE.

AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE JUST NEED TO BE AWARE OF.

>> Bonnie: LASTLY, PLEASE TELL ME THE NAME OF YOUR BOOK AGAIN SO PEOPLE CAN LOOK FOR IT AND GO TO YOUR WEBSITE AND BUY IT.

> Layla Saad: IT'S CALLED "ME AND WHITE SUPREMACY".

>> Bonnie: AND THEY JUST b ÃÃIS THAT YOUR WEBSITE'S NAME?

>> Layla Saad: MY WEBSITE IS LAYLAFSAAD.

COM.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU.

GOOD LUCK IN YOUR WORK AND IN YOUR GROWING GLOBAL INFLUENCE.

>> Layla Saad: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Bonnie: THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY."

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

DATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.