♪ ♪ >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, WE TALK GENDER ROLES AND HOW THEY ARE CHANGING AND HOW DIFFERENT GENERATIONS VIEW THEM SO STARKLY DIFFERENTLY AND THE REASON IS I AM INTERVIEWING LISA SELLING DAVIS, HIS NEW BOOK IS TOMBOY, AND SHE TALKS ABOUT HOW TOMBOY REFLECTS DIFFERENT VALUES AND DIFFERENT GENDER ISSUES AT DIFFERENT TIMES IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WHICH I FOUND REALLY INTERESTING.

LISA, WELCOME.

PLEASE TELL ME WHY DID YOU WRITE THIS BOOK?

WHAT IS YOUR BACKGROUND THAT GOT YOU INTERESTED IN GIVE YOU EXPERTISE IN IT?

>> Lisa: WELL, THE IMPETUS FOR THIS BOOK REALLY CAME FROM MY DAUGHTER WHO, WHEN SHE WAS THREE AND WHEN LOTS OF KIDS WERE STARTING TO SEGREGATE INTO SEX GROUPS IN PRESCHOOL, WAS STAYING REALLY IN THE MIDDLE, SO AS THE GIRLS WERE ENTERING A PRINCESS PHASE AND THE BOYS WERE GETTING MORE INTO TRUCKS AND PLAYING POLICE, SHE WAS OFTEN BEING THE ROYAL DOG AND WEARING BOYS CLOTHES AND GIRLS CLOTHES AND BEING FRIENDS WITH BOTH BOYS AND GIRLS.

AND WE DID NOT REALLY KNOW WHAT THAT MEANT FOR HER FUTURE.

WAS AN INDICATION OF GENDER IDENTITY, OF SEXUALITY?

WHY WERE ALL THOSE OTHER KIDS DOING THE SAME THING AND WHY WAS OUR KID DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

AND WE JUST WENT WITH IT AND FACILITATED HER.

AND THEN WHEN SHE WAS IN FIRST GRADE, SHE CAME HOME AND ANNOUNCED THAT SHE WAS A TOMBOY, SOME HAD TOLD HER THAT'S WHAT SHE WAS.

THAT'S WHEN I THOUGHT, OH, HOW INTERESTING.

THAT WORD WAS EVERYWHERE WHEN I WAS A KID IN THE '70s AND EARLY '80s.

IN FACT, THERE WERE MANY KIDS WHO LOOKED LIKE HER WHO HAD SHORT HAIR AND WERE, YOU KNOW, WEARING BOYS CLOTHES.

THEY WERE BOWL HAIRCUTS THAT WERE KIND OF MATCHING FOR BOYS AND GIRLS, THEY WERE SELLING PATTERNS THAT WERE UNISEX.

AND I WONDERED WHAT HAD CHANGED OUR CULTURE.

BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENING, WHICH IS THAT VERY MANY LOVING AND WELL-MEANING ADULTS WHO KNEW MY CHILD WELL WERE ALSO ASSUMING THAT SHE WAS TRANS AND THAT IN CONSTANTLY ASKING HER IF SHE WANTED A NEW PRONOUN OR WANTED TO CHANGE IN THE BOYS' LOCKER ROOM AND ALL OF IT WAS OUT OF LOVE AND SOMETIMES OUT OF CURIOSITY.

BUT I WONDERED ABOUT HOW WE COULD SUPPORT TRANS KIDS WITHOUT IT BEING BASED ON GENDER STEREOTYPES.

AND IF THOSE WERE NOT GIRL AND BOY THINGS WHEN I WAS A KID, WHAT HAD CHANGED TO CREATE A WORLD IN WHICH WE WERE ASSUMING THE GENDER IDENTITY WAS LOCATED IN STEREOTYPES AND WHAT WAS THAT RELATIONSHIP.

SO I WROTE ABOUT THAT AND GOT QUITE A BIT OF BLOWBACK ABOUT THAT IN THE NEW YORK TIMES.

IT WAS ALL OF THOSE THINGS TOGETHER THAT MADE ME REALIZE THERE WAS A BOOK OR MATERIAL TO INVESTIGATE.HE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT IF YOUR TENDER NONPERFORMING, AND I DON'T MEAN THAT AS AN IDENTITY, BUT AS OF WAY OF BEING IN THE WORLD THAT IS IF YOU ARE RESISTING GENDER NORMS THAT TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OR ACT A CERTAIN WAY BECAUSE OF YOUR BODY, THE RESEARCH SHOWS YOU TEND TO BE MORE CREATIVE, YOU TEND TO DO BETTER IN SCHOOL, THERE WAS A WHOLE HOST OF POSITIVE OUTCOMES ASSOCIATED WITH NOT CONFORMING TO GENDER ROLES BECAUSE ULTIMATELY GENDER ROLES ARE THERE TO MAKE US BEHAVE INTO A PROCESS.

SO WHAT I SAY TO PARENTS WHEN THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR CHILD NOT FOLLOWING IN LINE WITH GENDER ROLES IS JUST BREAK OUT THE CHAMPAGNE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ALL THAT WORK TO UNDO SOCIETIES MESSAGES ABOUT HOW A GIRL OR BOY IS SUPPOSED TO BE JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR BODIES.

LIKE YORK IT IS NATURALLY RESISTANT TO IT.

THERE ARE LOTS OF STUDIES ABOUT WHY SOME OF OUR HORMONES, MAYBE PARENTAL INFLUENCE.

THERE IS A HOST OF INFLUENCES THAT AFFECT HOW OUR CHILDREN BEHAVE.

BUT ULTIMATELY MY THESIS BECAME GENDER NONCONFORMITY IS A GREAT NAME FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE NATURAL GIFT, AND WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO REJECT GENDER ROLES.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IF A PARENT DOES NOT WANT TO DO THAT?

WHAT IF THERE IS AN OLD-FASHIONED PARENT WHO IS NOT -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS A CONSERVATIVE COUNTRY.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE MOTHERS?

THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT'S A BUNCH OF BUMP.

MY KID IS A GIRL AND SHE WILL BE RAISED AS A GIRL AND SHE IS GOING TO TURN OUT AS A GIRL AND A MOTHER.

>> Lisa: WELL, I WOULD SAY LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF WHERE YOU GOT THOSE IDEAS.

I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN WHERE IT IS OUR IDEA OF NORMAL COME FROM, WHAT ARE THE ROOTS OF IT?

ULTIMATELY, WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT MOST OF OUR IDEAS ABOUT HOW YOUNG CHILDREN SHOULD BE DRESSED AND WHAT THEY SHOULD PLAY WITH REALLY HAVE TO DO WITH MAKING SURE THAT THE KIDS ARE NOT GAY AND MAKING SURE THAT THE GIRLS REMAIN SUBSERVIENT, AND THAT IS WHERE THE HISTORY OF GENDER THEIR MATERIAL AND PSYCHIC WORLDS COME FROM.

SO UP UNTIL HUNDRED YEARS AGO, YOUNG BOYS AND GIRLS WERE WEARING THE SAME CLOTHES, ALL WEARING DRESSES AND THEY HAD LONG HAIR UNTIL THEY WENT TO SCHOOL.

AND THE REASON IS THAT ADULTS DID NOT WANT TO EMPHASIZE THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX BECAUSE SEX GENDER AND SEXUALITY WERE ALL MIXED TOGETHER IN THEIR MINDS.

SO THINKING OF A LITTLE BOY OR A LITTLE GIRL AS A LITTLE MAN OR A LITTLE WOMAN WOULD HAVE CONJURED UP IDEAS OF THEM AS FUTURE SEXUAL BEINGS AND ADULTS DO NOT WANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT.

SO THEY WERE DRESSED ACCORDING TO AGE, NOT SEX.

AND THE REASON THAT CHANGED HAD TO DO WITH THE RISE OF PSYCHOLOGY AND AN INCREASING UNDERSTANDING, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING, OF HOMOSEXUALITY.

AND BECAUSE PEOPLE STARTED THINKING THAT HOMOSEXUALITY WAS CAUSED I NURTURE, NOT NATURE, THEY STARTED TO BELIEVE THEY SHOULD DRESS LITTLE BOYS AS LITTLE MEN TO EMPHASIZE THAT THEY SHOULD BE STRAIGHT AND MANLY AND THEN GIRLS, THEIR TOYS AND CLOTHES GOT GENDERED TO MAKE SURE THEY WOULD PERFORM THEIR PROPER GENDER ROLES.

AND THAT IS THE HISTORY OF IMPOSING GENDER ONTO YOUNG CHILDREN.

AND I FEEL LIKE IF WE KNOW THAT, THEN MAYBE WE DON'T WANT TO PERPETUATE THAT.

MAYBE WE DON'T WANT TO KEEP GOING WITH THOSE MESSAGES.

>> Bonnie: BECAUSE, AS YOU SAY, IF YOU SUPPORT THE CHILD IN WHATEVER ROLE THE CHILD WANTS TO BE AS OPPOSED TO PICKING SOMETHING FOR THE CHILD, THE CHILD IS GOING TO BE EMOTIONALLY MUCH -- MORE WELL-ADJUSTED, DO BETTER IN SCHOOL [CROSS TALK] >> Lisa: NOT ONLY THAT, BUT JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO SEND THEM THE MESSAGE THAT IT'S WRONG TO BE GAY AND THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SUBSERVIENT.

I MEAN, IF THOSE ARE YOUR BELIEFS, THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT OPEN TO WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, BUT THOSE ARE THE OPPOSITE OF MY BELIEFS.

AND WHEN I FOUND OUT THAT EVERY TIME A PARENT IS REFUSING TO DRESS A LITTLE BOY IN PINK, WHAT THEY ARE SAYING IS DON'T BE GAY, DON'T BE LIKE A GIRL, DON'T BE GAY.

I WOULD NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT AS A PARENT.

SO I WAS HOPING THAT WHEN PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THE HISTORY BEHIND THAT, IT MIGHT HELP US MAKE DIFFERENT DECISIONS AS PARENTS, BUT ALSO NOT FEEL THE NEED TO IMPOSE GENDER ONTO THEIR CLOTHES, ONTO THEIR TOYS.

>> Bonnie: THERE WAS A POINT YOU KNOW AT ABOUT 120, UP UNTIL MAYBE 120 YEARS AGO WHERE BLUE WAS FOR GIRLS IN PINK WAS FOR BOYS.

>> Lisa: AROUND 100 YEARS AGO, KIDS, YOUNG CHILDREN'S MATERIAL WORLD'S GOT MORE GENDERED.

BUT INITIALLY, COLORS WERE NOT REALLY A PART OF THAT.

PINK WAS A VERY HARD KIND OF DIET TO PRODUCE.

SO THERE WERE NOT A LOT OF PINK CLOTHES!

AS IT BECAME MORE COMMON, SINCE IT WAS A VARIANT OF RED, IT WAS THOUGHT OF AS MASCULINE.

SO A KIND OF DISCUSSION PLAYED OUT IN PARTS OF THE MEDIA ABOUT WHAT COLOR SHOULD GO WITH WHAT KIDS.

AND THERE WERE CERTAIN DEPARTMENT STORES THAT WOULD MARKET BLUE AS A GIRLS COLOR, ESPECIALLY LIGHT BLUE, WHICH WAS ASSOCIATED WITH THE VIRGIN MARY, AND OTHER ONES WITH A PINK WAS A GIRLS COLOR WENT SO THAT REALLY DID NOT GET FULLY DECIDED UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THE LAST CENTURY FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, ONE OF THEM BEING THAT MAYBE EISENHOWER WAS SUPER CRAZY ABOUT PINK.

SO SHE KIND OF HELPED SOLIDIFY THAT AS A FEMININE COLOR, BUT ALSO THE RISE OF THE CONSUMER CULTURE IN THE 1950'S AND EVEN MORE OF A PROJECT OF BRANDING THROUGH COLOR.

SO IT TOOK A LONG TIME FOR THAT TO PROVIDE TO BE PART OF THIS GENDER RING OF CHILDHOOD.

>> Bonnie: AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S BAD THAT COMPANIES, TO THIS DAY, RIGHT, CONTINUE TO MARKET G.I.

JOE TO BOYS AND BARBIE THE GIRLS?

>> Lisa: THOSE EXAMPLES ARE INTERESTING BECAUSE G.I.

JOE AND BARBIE ARE MOSTLY THE SAME THING.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS IS THERE WAS A BIG STUDY AT THE END OF THE 19TH CENTURY ABOUT BOYS AND DOLLS AND IT WAS FOUND THAT UP TO 82 PERCENT OF BOYS PLAYED WITH DOLLS.

I CANNOT REMEMBER.

I THINK G.I.

JOE IS FROM THE '60s, BUT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT ACTION FIGURES BECAME SO POPULAR IS THAT PEOPLE NOTED THAT BOYS WOULD SNEAK PLAYING WITH DOLLS, BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO.

SO ACTION FIGURES WERE IN PART CREATED TO GIVE BOYS DOLLS.

OF COURSE, HE ACTUALLY WANTED, BUT OUR CULTURE HAD SENT THEM THE MESSAGE THEY SHOULD NOT PLAY WITH THEM.

>> Bonnie: OND THAT, WHEN TOYS ARE MARKETED FOR BOYS OR FOR GIRLS, THEY DEVELOP DIFFERENT SKILL SETS.

IN THE 19TH CENTURY, THERE WERE ALMOST NO GENDER MARKERS INTO ADVERTISEMENTS.

BEGINNING AROUND THIS TIME WHEN WE BEGIN TO THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT WE SHOULD MAKE SURE THESE KIDS GROW UP TO BE STRAIGHT AND GIRLS SUBSERVIENT, YOU START SEEING A CHANGE IN THE MESSAGES OF TOY ADVERTISEMENTS.

YOU START SEEING ERECTOR SETS MARKETED TO BOYS THAT SAYS EVERY BOY LIKES TO TINKER AND HE WILL GROW UP TO BE AN ENGINEER AND MOP AND BROOM SETS THAT SAY EVERY GIRL LOVES TO IMITATE MOMMY AND KEEP THE KITCHEN CLEAN.

AND I HAVE VERY, VERY DIRECT MESSAGES ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LIKE AND HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BEHAVE BECAUSE OF YOUR SEX.

AND WE GENERALLY DON'T MAKE IT THAT OBVIOUS NOW, BUT WE HAVE PLENTY OF OTHER WAYS OF MARKETING TO JUST BOYS OR JUST A GIRLS AND THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT THOSE TOYS HELP DEVELOP DIFFERENT SKILL SETS, NOT JUST A SENSE OF NORMALCY, BUT, YEAH, THE MORE YOU PLAY WITH LEGOS, THE MORE YOU ARE KIND OF SPATIAL RELATIONS, CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING SKILLS BUILDING THE MORE YOU PLAY WITH DOLLS AND DOLL HOUSES, THE MORE YOUR NURTURING COMMUNICATION SKILLS BUILD.

THOSE SKILLS ARE BOTH VERY IMPORTANT.

IN FACT, IF WE WANT TO BE A WELL-ROUNDED, FUNCTIONAL HUMAN BEING, HAVING THE KIND OF BOY TOY SKILL SETS AND GIRL TOY SKILL SETS TOGETHER IN ONE HUMAN BEING IS THE IDEAL.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT HOW THE CONCEPT OF BEING A TOMBOY, WHICH, AS YOU NOTED, THE BOOK IS LESS PREVALENT THAN IT WAS IN THE '60s AND '70s, BUT HOW THAT RESTRICTS WOMEN.

>> Lisa: THE WORD ITSELF HAS AN INTERESTING HISTORY.

IT APPEARS IN THE 16TH CENTURY, AND IT FIRST MEANS AN EXTRA BOISTEROUS BOY BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, HAS THE WORD BOY IN AND TOM MEANS MALE TYPE, LIKE TOM TURKEY ARE TOMCAT.

FIRST IT DESCRIBES A RAMBUNCTIOUS BOY.

THEN PRETTY SOON AFTER THAT, IT BECOMES APPLIED TO ADULT WOMEN WHO ARE KIND OF JUST ABOUT PROSTITUTES, LASCIVIOUS WOMEN WITH A KIND OF MALE APPETITE OR WHAT WE WOULD THINK OF THEM AS A MALE SEXUAL APPETITE.

SO OBVIOUSLY ROOTED IN SEPSIS ON THERE TOO.

AROUND 100 YEARS LATER, IT STARTS BEING APPLIED TO GIRLS AS AN INSULT.

A GIRL WHO ACTS LIKE A BOY WHO'S DOING THE WRONG THING.

BUT AS TIME GOES ON, ESPECIALLY BY THE MIDDLE OF THE 19TH CENTURY WHEN WE HAD THE CIVIL WAR, WE HAVE MORE WOMEN FILLING MEN'S ROLES AS MEN'S GO OFF TO WAR, THEN IT STARTS TO BECOME MORE OF A COMPLEMENT THAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT GIRLS TO BE TOMBOYS FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

IT GETS DEBATED IN THE PRESS.

SOME PEOPLE ARGUE THIS IS TERRIBLE AND GIRL SHOULD NOT BE DOING IT, THE PEOPLE SAY, YES, GIRLS SHOULD HAVE ESSENTIALLY A BOYHOOD.

BUT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WAS IMPORTANT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS ALL ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING TO MAKE THIS GIRL HIT PUBERTY AND BE -- >> Bonnie: EXCUSE ME, SORRY.

>> Lisa: BE READY FOR PROCREATION.

SO THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE ARGUING ABOUT.

WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE HEALTHIEST WAY TO RAISE A GIRL SO SHE CAN MAKE BABIES LATER?

AND THE WORD GETS DEBATED AND OVER AND OVER FROM THE END OF THE 19TH CENTURY UP UNTIL, YOU KNOW, 2018, ARTICLE SAY DON'T USE THIS WORD, IT IS SEXIST BECAUSE IT'S DECLARING THAT THESE QUALITIES LIKE BEING SPORTY, BEING INDEPENDENT, BEING TOUGH, THAT THEY BELONG TO BOYS.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF OBJECTION TO THE WORD ITSELF.

BUT THE TRUTH IS, FOR GENERATIONS OF WOMEN, BEING A TOMBOY WAS A KIND OF FREEDOM THAT INSTEAD OF PEOPLE SAYING, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT GIRL, WISE AND SHE DOING -- ACTING THE WAY A GIRL SHOULD, THEY WOULD SAY, OH, SHE'S A TOMBOY, I KNOW WHAT THAT IS.

IT'S A NORMAL VARIATION OF GIRLHOOD.

NOT ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE THEY WERE GIRLS WHO WERE TOO MASCULINE TO FIT IN THAT CATEGORY, BUT I THINK I DID A LOT OF WORK FOR A LONG TIME TO CREATE MORE SPACE FOR GIRLS TO EXPLORE BEYOND THE BOUNDARIES SET FOR THEM BY THEIR SEX.

>> Bonnie: I GET THE FEELING THAT PART OF ONE OF THE REASONS THAT YOU SAY THAT BEING A TOMBOY, THE USE OF THE TERM RESTRICTS WOMEN'S RIGHTS, RESTRICTS THEIR AREAS OF INTEREST, ETC., ETC., THAT IT'S A BAD THING, BUT MOST TOMBOYS, AT LEAST IN MY GENERATION AND I WAS ONE, DID NOT GROW UP TO BE, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING OTHER THAN THEIR GENDER LINE AND FEMALE.

>> Lisa: WELL, I DON'T HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THE WORD THAT SOME PEOPLE DO, SO I SEE HOW VALUABLE THE WORD HAS BEEN AND I FEEL KIND OF GRATEFUL TO IT FOR PROVIDING, YOU KNOW, DECADES AND DECADES OF FREEDOM FOR GIRLS, BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK ABOUT IS THAT SOME TRAINS KIDS FELT VERY IMPRESSED BY IT BECAUSE INSTEAD OF IT BEING A LIBERATING WORD, IT WAS A LIMITING WORD, IT WAS PEOPLE TELLING THEM YOU'RE NOT A BOY, YOU ARE A TOMBOY AND YOU NEED TO STAY OVER HERE.

SO THE CONCLUSION I CAME TO AFTER INTERVIEWING DOZENS OF PEOPLE FROM MANY DIFFERENT SEXUALITIES, GENDER IDENTITIES, AGES, GEOGRAPHIES, WAS THAT HAVING THAT KIND OF BOY HOOD FOR GIRLS, FOR WHATEVER REASON, HAD CREATED MANY MORE SELF-CONFIDENT ADULTS, THAT WHETHER IT WAS BEING SOCIALIZED WITH BOYS, SOMETIMES AS BOYS, AS THEIR PROXIMITY TO MALE PRIVILEGE, OR JUST BEING USED TO DOING YOUR OWN THING, THAT THOSE HAD LASTING POSITIVE IMPLICATIONS.

AND ALSO, I THINK THERE IS A CORRELATION BETWEEN KIND OF DEGREE OF TOMBOY IS ISM AND CAREER SUCCESS, AND THAT COULD SIMPLY BE BECAUSE WOMEN WHO HAD TOMBOY CHILDHOODS THAT VERY USED TO BEING AROUND MEN AND MASCULINITY, AND THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, THE BEST PAYING JOBS TEND TO BE OCCUPIED BY MEN.

SO IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE AROUND THAT, IT'S GOING TO HELP YOU CLIMB UP THE CORPORATE LADDER, OR ANY LOT -- LADDER WHEN THERE ARE A BUNCH OF MEN AT THE TOP OF IT.

>> Bonnie: TALK A LITTLE PLEASED ABOUT HOW RACE PLAYS INTO ALL OF THE SPIRIT.

>> Lisa: YEAH, THERE'S AN INTERESTING INTERSECTION OF RACE AND TOMBOYISM IN THE 19TH CENTURY AND THEN WE SEE IT STILL IN TERMS OF HAVING DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS OF WHITE GIRLS AND ESPECIALLY BLACK GIRLS.

SO ONE OF THE REASONS THAT SOME GIRLS WERE ENCOURAGED TO BE TOMBOYS IN THE 19TH CENTURY WAS BECAUSE THE BIRTH RATE WAS DECLINING AMONG AMERICAN BORN WHITES AND THERE WAS THIS FEAR, WHICH WE STILL RECOGNIZE TODAY, THEY WERE WAVES OF IMMIGRATION AMONG NONWHITE PEOPLE TAKING OVER.

AND SO, THIS IDEA THAT GIRLS SHOULD HAVE THIS TOMBOY CHILDHOOD WAS SO THAT THEY COULD PROCREATE WAS PARTLY SO THAT THE WHITE RACE COULD BREED BETTER AND MAKE SURE THAT WHITE PEOPLE KEPT A HOLD ON AMERICA.

AND TOMBOYISM, AS IT'S BEEN REPRESENTED IN THE MEDIA, HAS ALMOST ALWAYS BEEN WHITE GIRLS.

AND THAT, THEY ARE RACIST REASONS FOR THAT, BUT TOMBOYISM WAS A PRIVILEGE FOR KIND OF MIDDLE CLASS AND UPPER MIDDLE-CLASS WHITE GIRLS IN THE 19TH CENTURY BECAUSE IF THEY ARE GETTING THEIR HANDS DIRTY, RIPPING THEIR CLOTHES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY WANT TO AND CAN, NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.

SO POOR GIRLS, ENSLAVED GIRLS, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE THE CHOICE.

THEY MIGHT BE HAVING AN OUTDOOR LIFE FULL OF PHYSICAL LABOR, BECAUSE THEY WERE FORCED INTO THAT.

AND WE OFTEN SEE THE ROOTS OF THOUGHT PLAYED OUT IN HOW WHITE GIRLS VERSUS GIRLS OF COLOR ARE GETTING IN TROUBLE IN SCHOOL SO BLACK GIRLS GET IN TROUBLE ARE DISCIPLINED SIX TIMES MORE THAN WHITE GIRLS, OFTEN FOR THE SAME BEHAVIORS.

WE STILL HAVE VERY DIFFERENT IDEAS OF WHAT IS OKAY FOR GIRLS OF DIFFERENT RACES AND THAT A GIRL, A WHITE GIRL KIND OF ACTING ENTITLED AND UPPITY IS A WELCOME THING, GOOD FOR HER, AND A BLACK GIRL, YOU KNOW, CAN GET -- WASN'T THERE A SIX-YEAR-OLD BLACK GIRL WHO GOT ARRESTED AT SCHOOL LAST YEAR?

BLACK GIRLS AT POOL PARTIES GETTING SHELVED AND, YOU KNOW, HANDCUFFED BY POLICE OFFICERS.

SO WE STILL HAVE VERY, VERY DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT WHAT'S IN IT FOR GIRLS BASED ON THEIR RACE.

>> Bonnie: ONE INTERESTING YOU BROUGHT UP WHEN YOU PROFILED ONES SUCH GIRL, A YOUNG GIRL OF COLOR WHO IDENTIFIED AS TOMBOY, WAS LIVING IN POOR NEIGHBORHOODS.

IT WAS A PRODUCTION.

SO PLEASE TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT.

>> Lisa: YEAH.

THIS WAS ACTUALLY A FRIEND OF MINE WHO GREW UP IN THE PROJECTS IN BROOKLYN.

AND SHE SAID TOMBOYISM WAS JUST THE WAY OF LIFE FOR HER AND THE OTHER GIRLS THERE, THAT THEY FELT IN DANGER, THAT YOU HAD TO SHOW THE BOYS THAT YOU WERE TOUGH.

SO IT WASN'T A CHOICE, IT WAS -- IT WAS A KIND OF ARMOR AGAINST THE CULTURE THEY WERE LIVING IN.

AND THEY TRY TO DOMINATE TO SHOW THEY COULD RUN AS FAST AS THE BOYS SO THAT THEY COULD NOT GET -- SO THEY WOULD NOT GET HURT.

>> Bonnie: SO TELL ME WHERE THIS LEADS US, BECAUSE I FEEL IN THE BOOK, LIKE, YOU THREW OUT A LOT OF INTERESTING AND FASCINATING AND HISTORY , AND AT THE END KIND OF SAID, WELL, WE WILL JUST HAVE TO SEE WHERE THIS GOES.

CAN YOU GIVE ME A LITTLE BIT MORE DIRECTION?

>> Lisa: IS A GREAT QUESTION OF WHY ARE WE GOING, BECAUSE I SEE THESE CULTURE WARS AND THEIR VICIOUS PLAYING OUT ABOUT GENDER AND I OFTEN FEEL LIKE I AM DYING TO STEP IN THERE AND SAY, GUESS WHAT I LEARNED, AND THINKING HIGH IN THE SKY THAT IF PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS IN A HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH CAPITALISM, HOMOPHOBIA AND MISOGYNY HAVE BUBBLED TOGETHER TO FORM OUR IDEAS OF NORMAL, THAT WE WILL REALIZE THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN IT, WE CAN BREAK FREE.

IT TURNS OUT THAT WAS WAY TOO OPTIMISTIC.

SO WHAT I WANT TO SEE HAPPEN IS FOR PARENTS TO MAKE SEX AND GENDER 'S LESS POWERFUL IN TERMS OF DECISION-MAKING FOR CHILDREN AND TO REALLY DEEMPHASIZE SEX AND GENDER.

AND A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRITTEN BOOKS ABOUT KIDS AND GENDER, NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT A LOT OF THEM COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION, WHICH IS THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE KIND OF MESSAGES THAT GIRLS RECEIVE LEAD THEM TO VERY LOW SELF-ESTEEM, TO BEING OBSESSED WITH THEIR APPEARANCE, TO HAVING THE EATING DISORDERS AND OTHER RELATED PROBLEMS AND THAT THE WAY WE RAISE BOYS LEADS TO ALL OF THIS TOXIC MASCULINITY THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IN OUR CULTURE FOR THE LAST YEAR OR SO.

ULTIMATELY, THE MESSAGE IS RAISE BOYS A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE GIRLS, RAISE GIRLS A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE BOYS.

DON'T THINK OF IT AS BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVE, BUT RATHER A DECISION WE CAN MAKE, AND DON'T FREAK OUT ABOUT IT SO MUCH.

IT'S JUST PUT THE BOYS IN BALLET, BUT THE GIRLS IN BASEBALL, TRY TO CHANGE THE MESSAGES, TRY TO WIND THE RANGE OF NORMAL.

AND THAT IS WHERE I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US GOING.

>> Bonnie: BUT HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE US TO GET THERE?

>> Lisa: UNFORTUNATELY, A LOT OF IT IS ABOUT CAN BUSINESSES MAKE MONEY AT THIS?

BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT WE HAVE GIRL STUFF AND BOY STUFF IS HOW MUCH YOU CAN CELIBATE.

A LOT OF CHILDHOOD GOT EVEN MORE HYPER GENDERED DURING TIMES OF RECESSION WHEN IT WAS LIKE, OH, WE DON'T WANT ANYONE TO HAVE HAND-ME-DOWNS, BETTER MAKE SURE THEY CANNOT SHARE THINGS, ESPECIALLY AS THE BIRTH RATES DECLINED IN THE 1970'S, AGAIN.

SO I THINK IF BUSINESSES FIND A WAY TO MAKE MONEY AT NOT GENDER RING TOYS, THEN THEY WILL BE MORE INTERESTED IN IT.

IN THE MEANTIME, I THINK CONSUMER PRESSURE OF OTHER KINDS AND DO THE TRICK.

AND WE HAVE SEEN SOME THINGS HAPPEN.

LIKE UNTIL A COUPLE YEARS AGO, THE INTERNATIONAL TOY ASSOCIATION HAD AWARDS FOR BOY TOY OF THE YEAR AND GIRL TOY OF THE YEAR.

BECAUSE OF CONSUMER PRESSURE, THEY STOPPED DOING THAT.

I THINK IF YOU GO TO THE DISNEY WEBSITE NOW, YOU CAN STILL SEARCH FOR GIRL TOY OR BOY TOY, BUT IT JUST PUTS EVERY TOY THERE.

THAT'S KIND OF INTERESTING EXAMPLE OF APPEASING THAT YOU CAN STILL CLICK BOY AND GIRL TOY IF YOU WANT, BUT ALSO WE DON'T HAVE TO RESTRICT.

WE JUST DON'T HAVE TO RESTRICT WHAT WE EXPOSE CHILDREN TO BECAUSE OF THEIR BODY PARTS.

WHEN YOU START THINK OF IT THAT WAY, IT DOES SEEM KIND OF RIDICULOUS.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS FROLICKING, FUN, HISTORICAL ROMP THROUGH WHAT IS GOING ON WITH GENDER ROLES AND HOW AND WHAT HURTS WOMEN.

I FOUND THE BOOK VERY INTERESTING AND VERY INTRIGUING.

SO THANKS VERY MUCH, LISA SELIN DAVIS FOR "TOMBOY".

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR FUTURE AND WATCHING AND SEEING IF SOCIETY TAKES NOTE AND STARTS ACTING DIFFERENTLY IN TERMS OF HOW THEY ARE RAISING THEIR CHILDREN.

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