>> Bonnie: HELLO.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

I AM HOST BONNIE ERBE.

THIS WEEK, WE SPEAK WITH WOMAN THOUGHT LEADER AND BOOK AUTHOR SEYWARD DARBY ABOUT HER NEW BOOK CALLED SISTERS AND HATE AND IT'S ALL ABOUT THE WOMEN OF THE FAR RIGHT MOVEMENT.

FIRST OF ALL, MS. DARBY, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR CREDENTIALS, YOUR BACKGROUND THAT GAVE YOU THE ABILITY TO WRITE INTELLIGENTLY ON THIS TOPIC AND WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS TOPIC?

>> Seyward Darby: SURE.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S A REAL PLEASURE.

I HAVE BEEN A MAGAZINE EDITOR FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

I STARTED OUT THE NEW REPUBLIC AND THEN I WAS AT FOREIGN POLICY AND I'M NOW THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF THE ADVENTIST MAGAZINE.

ALONG THE WAY, I'VE BEEN WRITING THE ROUGH REPORTING OF A FREELANCE JOURNALIST AND HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN ISSUES OF SOCIAL JUSTICE, RACIAL JUSTICE AND AFTER TRUMP'S COLLECTION IN 2016, I HAD BEEN FOLLOWING WHAT AT THAT TIME WAS CONSIDERED A RESURGENCE OF THE FAR RIGHT AND ITS SUPPORT FOR HIS CANDIDACY.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE ELECTION, AS I WAS, LIKE MANY PEOPLE, REALLY STRUGGLING TO MAKE SENSE WHAT HAPPENED, I WAS STRUCK BY HOW AND COVERAGE OF THE FAR RIGHT, ONLY MEN WERE EVER QUOTED.

IT WAS DESCRIBED AS A LOT OF ANGRY WHITE MEN.

IT STRUCK ME AS PROBABLY WRONG THAT IT WAS NOTHING BUT ANGRY WHITE MEN, WHICH IS NOT TO SAY IT'S NOT MISOGYNISTIC, BECAUSE IT IS A HYPER MISOGYNISTIC MOVEMENT.

BUT I WAS CURIOUS WHY WOMEN WERE BEING WRITTEN OUT OF THE STORY.

AND SO, IT REALLY STARTED FROM THE QUESTION.

I WENT LOOKING FOR WOMEN OF THE FAR RIGHT.

AND INITIALLY IT WAS FOCUSING ON THE PRESENT MOMENT.

BUT THEN IN THE COURSE OF WORKING ON MY BOOK, I ALSO DID A LOT OF HISTORICAL READING AND RESEARCH ABOUT WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN VARIOUS ITERATIONS OF THE FAR RIGHT GOING BACK OVER 150 YEARS.

>> Bonnie: LET'S START WITH THE HISTORICAL ASPECT OF IT, BECAUSE, JUST VERY COINCIDENTALLY, I RECENTLY WATCHED BIRTH OF A NATION ON YOUTUBE JUST BECAUSE I HAD NEVER SEEN THE WHOLE MOVIE, AND SO IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BIRTH OF THE KKK AND THE SUPPOSEDLY HORRIBLE AFRICAN-AMERICAN PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH WHO WILL, AFTER THE SOUTH LOST, TRY TO TAKE OVER AND MAKE THE SOUTH A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE PLACE FOR WHITE PEOPLE.

OF COURSE, COMPLETELY RACIST AND HISTORICALLY INACCURATE IN ITS PERCEPTION.

HOWEVER, IT SHOWS THE WOMEN.

AND THEY WERE CLEARLY INVOLVED IN THE FOUNDING OF THE KKK AND CLEARLY VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THE MEN WHO FOUNDED THE KKK.

SO TELL ME HOW THEY RELATE TO THE FAR RIGHT WOMEN TODAY -- OF TODAY?

>> Seyward Darby: ABSOLUTELY.

YEAH, BIRTH OF A NATION, I WATCHED IT FIRST TIME ALL THE WAY THROUGH IN COLLEGE AS A HISTORY -- I BELIEVE IN THE HISTORY OF FILM CLASS.

IT'S A MOVIE THAT I HAVE NO DESIRE EVER TO WATCH ALL THE WAY THROUGH AGAIN.

BUT I DO THINK IT IS SO INSTRUCTIVE FROM THE STANDPOINT OF UNDERSTANDING, YOU KNOW, THE ROLE THAT WOMEN HAVE PLAYED IN UPHOLDING STRUCTURES AND CULTURES OF WHITE SUPREMACY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE DEPICTION OF WHITE WOMEN IN A BREATH OF THE NATION IS THAT THEY ARE, THEY ARE VERY MUCH THE SYMBOLS OF PURITY, OF INNOCENCE, OF SOMETHING THAT CAN BE TARNISHED, IF NOT PROTECTED.

SOMETHING THAT CAN BE VIOLATED IF NOT PROTECTED.

AND CERTAINLY, THE ORIGINAL KKK IS FOUNDED IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, THAT WAS KIND OF THEIR RALLYING CRY, RIGHT, WAS PROTECTING THE PURITY OF WHITENESS AND PARTICULARLY OF WHITE WOMEN FROM, YOU KNOW, VIOLATION ENCOURAGEMENT.

AND SO, WOMEN WERE SYMBOLS AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE.

WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT AROUND THE TIME THAT THE KKK WAS REALLY GETTING GOING, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WERE NOT JUST SYMBOLS.

THEY WERE ALSO IMPORTANT ACTIVISTS.

IN PARTICULAR, THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF THE CONFEDERACY WAS WORKING TO ESTABLISH THESE IDEA OF A LOST CAUSE AND, YOU KNOW, INTO THE EARLY 1900S THEY WERE CERTAINLY ERUPTING THE STATUES WAS ARGUING ABOUT TODAY, RAISING FUNDS FOR THEM BUT ALSO INFLUENCING TEXTBOOKS AND THE WAY THAT THE CIVIL WAR AND THE ANTEBELLUM PERIOD WERE WRITTEN ABOUT IN TEXT ACROSS THE COUNTRY THE CHILDREN WOULD READ.

ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND INTERESTING IN MY RESEARCH WAS REALIZING WITH THE BIRTH OF THE NATION DEPICTION OF WHITE WOMEN, EVEN THAT IN SOME WAYS IS REDUCTIVE.

I THINK IT POSITIONS THEM AS, YES, SUPPORTIVE, BUT ALSO SIDELINED IN A WAY THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY ACCURATE TO THE HISTORICAL RECORD.

AND IN THE 1920'S WHEN THE KKK RESEARCHED AND WAS AT ITS ZENITH, WOMEN WERE ACTUALLY CRUCIAL ACTORS.

A WOMAN NAMED ELIZABETH TYLOR WAS THE KEY PROPAGANDIST FOR THE ORGANIZATION.

SHE STARTED A NEWSPAPER, HAD A RECRUITMENT PROGRAM.

AND WOMEN USED THEIR NEWFOUND RIGHT TO VOTE TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO THEY THOUGHT WOULD SUPPORT THE KKK'S AGENDA.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, AGAIN AND LOOKING BACK AND TYING IT TO THE PRESENT MOMENT, WOMEN OF THE FAR RIGHT ARE CERTAINLY SYMBOLS.

THEY STILL WATCH OUR IN THIS IDEA THAT WE NEED TO, YOU KNOW, AS A RACE, PROTECT WHITE WOMEN FROM, YOU KNOW, VIOLATION, TARNISHING, ALL THESE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF SEXUAL NOTIONS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WOMEN HAVE BEEN VERY IMPORTANT POLITICAL AND SOCIAL ACTORS ON THE FAR RIGHT.

AND SO, I CONTINUE TO BE VERY INTERESTED IN THAT KIND OF DUALITY OF WOMEN AS LIKE REPRESENTATIVE OF SOMETHING FOR THE FAR RIGHT BUT ALSO WOMEN AS INTEGRAL FROM AN ACT OF THE STANDPOINT.

SO THERE IS THE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT EVERYONE IS RALLYING AROUND, BUT THEN OFTENTIMES THEY ARE ALSO THE PEOPLE HELPING ORGANIZE THE RALLYING.

>> Bonnie: SO THEY BELIEVE THE MYTHOLOGY OF THE CONFEDERACY AS BEING, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE ROMANTIC, YOU KNOW, GONE WITH THE WIND KIND OF -- THESE GUYS ARE WONDERFUL GUYS AND THEY TREATED THEIR SLAVES WONDERFULLY AND THEY TREATED, YOU KNOW -- THAT THEY ARE NOT RAPISTS.

AND THEY DID RAPE NOT ONLY SLAVES OF COURSE ALL THE TIME, BUT THERON WOMEN, LOTS OF THE TIME.

THEY BEAT THEIR WHITE WOMEN.

SO WHAT MAKES THEM, WHAT MAKES WOMEN WANT TO BUY INTO THIS FANTASY?

>> Seyward Darby: SURE.

WILL I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO STATE FIRST THAT, YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF LOST CAUSE NEO-CONFEDERATE GROUP, IF YOU WILL, I MEAN, IT'S NOT A GOOD, BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO THAT IS SORT OF THE FANTASY THAT THEY BELIEVE IN, THAT'S JUST ONE SLICE OF THE CONTEMPORARY FAR RIGHT.

WE ALSO HAVE, YOU KNOW, NEO-NAZIS, MANY OF WHOM ARE, YOU KNOW, SKINHEADS IN A VERY DIFFERENT CULTURE.

YOU HAVE THE SO-CALLED ALT-RIGHT WHICH DOES NOT REALLY EXIST UNDER THAT LABEL ANYMORE, BUT YOU KNOW, KIND OF THESE SAVVY DIGITAL NEOFASCISTS.

WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THEY EACH HAVE THIS KIND OF, THESE DIFFERENT AESTHETICS IN DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, POINTS OF HISTORY THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN.

BUT THEY ALL ULTIMATELY BELIEVE IN THE SAME CORE IDEA WHICH IS THAT THE WHITE RACE AND PARTICULAR IN AMERICA IS UNDER THREATS SOMEHOW.

>> Bonnie: THERE ARE FACTIONS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT WOMEN.

THERE ARE FACTIONS OF ALT-RIGHT WHO HATE ALL WOMEN, WHO BEAT UP ON THEM IN THE MOST VULGAR TERMS ONLINE AND THE DARK WEB, AND ALSO ON THE NORMALLY ACCESSIBLE WEB.

WHAT -- IS IT RELIGION?

IS IT THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN, EVANGELICAL BELIEF THAT BONDS THEM TO THESE ABUSIVE MEN?

>> Seyward Darby: RELIGION IS ANOTHER THING THAT'S VERY DIVERSE ON THE FAR RIGHT.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEPLY, YOU KNOW, EVANGELICAL, BUT THEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY OVERTLY PAGAN OR, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY YOU HAVE CATHOLICS.

AND IT JUST, IT'S A VERY DIVERSE SPACE.

ATHEISTS.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW -- >> Bonnie: THERE ARE ATHEISTS IN THE REBIRTH OF THE CONFEDERACY?

THAT'S INTERESTING TO ME.

>> Seyward Darby: YEAH.

IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED MOTLEY SPACE.

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT IT HAS DEFIED A LOT OF PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING OVER TIME WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MORE, HOW SHALL WE SAY, RUN-OF-THE-MILL MISOGYNY, YOU KNOW, THE MEN AND WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, NATURAL ATTRIBUTES AND SKILLS AND THINGS COLLABORATE AND, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE IS MEANT TO BE IN A CERTAIN PLACE.

I THINK SOME WOMEN IN THIS SPACE WOULD SAY THAT THAT IS NOT SEXISM, THAT THAT IS JUST THE WAY OF THE WORLD AND IT'S THE WAY THAT A RACE REMAINS STRONG.

AND SO, THEY SEE THE SORT OF TYPICAL FEMININE ROLE AS EMPOWERING OF BEING A WIFE, BEING A MOTHER, BEING A SUPPORTER, OF BEING, YOU KNOW, AN ORGANIZER.

AND THEN WITH REGARD TO THE MORE THE EARL AND SEXISM AND CERTAINLY ATE THE ABUSE, I THINK THERE'S SOME MENTAL GYMNASTICS IN PLAY THERE.

BECAUSE WHAT THEY WILL SAY AND WHAT WOMEN WHO I INTERVIEWED WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THIS IS SAID WAS THOSE ARE NOT OUR PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE -- THAT'S NOT WHO WE ARE, YOU KNOW?

THE MAN THAT WE ASSOCIATE WITH, THEY BELIEVE THAT WOMEN ARE THE KEY TO THE FUTURE.

WHITE NATIONALISM IS SOMETHING THAT PREYS ON AS A SOCIAL MOVEMENTT PREYS ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF AMERICAN LIFE AND STRANDS OF AMERICAN LIFE.

AND SO, CERTAINLY CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY IS ONE OF THOSE, BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS ABOUT THAT IDEOLOGY THAT MAPS NEATLY ONTO A WHITE NATIONALIST IDEOLOGY PERIOD.

AGAIN, I WILL GIVE THE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES MORE PAGAN OR IN TOUCH WITH THEIR, YOU KNOW, TRIBAL ANCESTRAL ROOTS, THEY TALK A LOT ABOUT, LIKE, NORTHERN EUROPEAN MYTHOLOGY, AND THOSE PEOPLE HAVE VERY SIMILAR IDEAS ABOUT WHAT MEN AND WOMEN SHOULD BE, YOU KNOW, DOING IN THEIR RESPECTIVE ROLES.

THAT IS SHORT OF THE RELIGIOSITY OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY, BUT THE ACTUAL FUNDAMENTALS ARE THE SAME ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NATURAL THAT, YOU KNOW, WOMEN ARE KIND OF -- IS A YIN-YANG SITUATION ALMOST.

AND THE CROSSING OVER THE DIVIDE BETWEEN WHAT MAKES A MAN A MAN AND WOMAN A WOMAN IS, YOU KNOW, ONLY TO THE DETRIMENT OF OUR RACE, IF YOU WILL.

SO THE CHRISTIANITY ASPECT -- TO BE CLEAR, CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN A VERY IMPORTANT BREEDING GROUND I THINK FOR A LOT OF WHITE NATIONALISM, PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST QUARTER CENTURY.

AND THIS IS AND TO DIMINISH AT ALL.

IT'S REALLY TO SAY THERE ARE THESE DIFFERENT STRAINS.

>> Bonnie: BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO, AND I DO WANT TO GET -- HOW HAVE YOU INGRATIATED YOURSELVES TO THESE WOMEN AND GOTTEN THEM TO TRUST YOU AND TALK TO YOU -- THE LAST THING YOU MENTIONED, I GUESS, SORT OF TALKING ABOUT NORDIC MYTHOLOGY, LIKE VIKINGS AND THAT SORT OF THING.

WHAT ARE THE OTHER -- YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT AND CHRISTIAN EVANGELISM.

WHAT OTHER STRAINS SEEM TO PULL THESE WOMEN INTO THE MOVEMENT?

>> Seyward Darby: WELL, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THERE'S KIND OF THIS LIKE NEO-NAZI, SKINHEAD, ALMOST, YOU KNOW, OH, WE ARE ANTI-AUTHORITY, IF YOU WILL.

AND THERE IS NOT A LOT OF TRADITIONAL RELIGION INFLECTED IN THERE.

BUT, BUT THAT'S DEFINITELY ONE STRAND AND WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF IT SINCE THE 1970'S.

AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE MORE OF THIS -- AND THIS IS, AGAIN, SORT OF THE SAVVY DIGITAL NEOFASCISTS, THESE PEOPLE WHO -- AND I THINK THAT THIS IS VERY MUCH BEEN ENABLED BY TRUMP, FRANKLY: PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SEE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT ANY PARTICULAR FRIEND, ARE MUCH MORE SIMILAR TO YOU THAN YOU THINK.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE THE RIGHT HAIRCUT, I WEAR THE RIGHT CLOTHES.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE MY OWN BLOG.

AND, AND THEY ARE MORE INTERESTED IN SEEMING LIKE THEY COULD BE PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH, FRANKLY, THEY COULD.

NAR -- >> Bonnie: THE TRUMP REPUBLICAN PARTY, FOR SURE.

>> Seyward Darby: RIGHT.

EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

AND SO, I MEAN, THOSE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THE THREATS.

BUT I THINK THE LAST WORD IS CERTAINLY THE ONE IT'S BEEN GETTING A LOT OF ATTENTION IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW, DIALOGUE SURROUNDING THE ALT-RIGHT IN 2016.

AND THAT ONE VERY MUCH INVOLVES WOMEN WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES ALMOST RACIST INFLUENCERS.

THEY WOULD NEVER -- THEY DON'T CALL THEMSELVES RACIST, BUT, YOU KNOW, ARE USING THINGS LIKE YOUTUBE AND PINTEREST INSTAGRAM TWO, YOU KNOW, SHOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A WOMAN FIGHTING FOR THE WHITE RACE IN 2020.

BUT TO YOUR POINT, I MEAN, I THINK WE'VE SORT OF BEEN CIRCLING AROUND THIS.

WHY?

WHY DO WOMEN COME TO THIS, CAN THE ANSWER IS THAT IT'S A HYPER INDIVIDUALIZED PHENOMENON.

SO THE REASON THAT PEOPLE ARE DRAWN INTO HATE IS NOT BECAUSE OF A PARTICULAR DEEP-SEATED DISDAIN THAT IS OUTSIZED IN COMPARED TO MOST BASELINE RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES.

RATHER, THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING SOMETHING AND THAT NEED THAT THEY ARE SEEKING TO FILL BECOMES BIGGER THAN OTHER NEEDS.

AND SO, IT COULD BE SEARCHING FOR POWER, SEARCHING FOR CAMARADERIE, SEARCHING FOR A SENSE OF MEANING, COMMUNITY, OR, FRANKLY, YOU KNOW, MONEY.

A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE PLATFORMS THAT ARE MONETIZED.

AND HATE AS A, AS AN EMOTION, AS, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT YOU THINK I HATE THAT PERSON, I DISDAIN THAT PERSON, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT GETS AUGMENTED AND LEARNED INSIDE THE MOVEMENT AND BECOMES, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT THEY PERFORM AS AN ACT OF BEING A PART OF THE COMMUNITY, SAYING THE LANGUAGE, THE SLURS, OR IN SOME CASES PARTICIPATING IN THE VIOLENCE.

AND SO, I REMEMBER ONE OF MY FAVORITE QUOTES I READ THROUGH MY RESEARCH WAS A SOCIOLOGIST WAS ASKED IN THE 1990'S, YOU KNOW, IS THERE A STANDARD PROFILE OF SOMEONE WHO GETS INVOLVED IN THE HATE MOVEMENT?

HER REPLY WAS, THAT WOULD BE COMFORTING.

AND I THINK THAT SHE IS RIGHT, BECAUSE WOULD BE COMFORTING IF YOU COULD JUST SAY, OKAY, WELL, WE CAN IDENTIFY THESE FIVE INGREDIENTS.

YOU KNOW?

BUT YOU CANNOT.

IT'S A MUCH MORE INDIVIDUALIZED AND THERE IS SO MUCH MORE OF WORK TO BE DONE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND PARTICULARLY NOW, YOU KNOW, HOW PEOPLE ARE DRAWN INTO THESE SPACES ONLINE.

>> Bonnie: NOW TELL US HOW YOU AS SOMEBODY THEY WOULD SEE AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MUCH HATED LIBERAL MEDIA FOUND THEM, GOT ACCESS TO THEM, AND GOT THEM TO TRUST YOU.

>> Seyward Darby: YOU KNOW, INITIALLY, RIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION, THIS WAS A VERY HEADY TIME, FRANKLY, FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE FAR RIGHT, BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAD WON.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LIKELY CANDIDATE, NOT THAT HE WAS PER SE THEIR CANDIDATE, BUT THE CANDIDATE THAT THEY SUPPORTED HAD WON AND HE WAS PROMISING TO, YOU KNOW, DO THESE THINGS ON IMMIGRATION THAT THEY WANTED.

THEY LIKED HOW FRANKLY HE SPOKE.

YOU KNOW, ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND SO, WHEN I INITIALLY STARTED REACHING OUT TO WOMEN, AND IT WAS AS SIMPLE AS LOOKING FOR THEM ONLINE.

I FOUND VARIOUS YOUTUBE CHANNELS AND TWITTER FEEDS AND BLOGS AND OTHER SPACES ONLINE WHERE WOMEN'S NAMES AND CONTACT INFORMATION WERE AVAILABLE.

AND I THINK THAT THEY REALLY FELT LIKE THIS WAS THE MOMENT, THAT I REMEMBER ONE OF THEM WHO I MET AND SPOKE TO DESCRIBE HOW THE ALT-RIGHT WAS GOING TO BE, POLITICAL PARTY, HOW THIS WAS JUST THE BEGINNING OF, LIKE, THEIR POLITICAL RENAISSANCE.

AND SO, I THINK IN SOME WAYS SOME OF THE WOMEN WHO SPOKE TO ME RIGHT BACK THEN, SORT OF EARLY 2017, WERE SORT OF RIDING THIS HIGH OF THE ELECTION.

THAT BEING SAID, LOTS OF WOMEN SAID NO.

I WAS ALWAYS VERY FORTHRIGHT ABOUT WHO I WAS.

I SAID WHAT I BELIEVE POLITICALLY, SAID I CONSIDER MYSELF A FEMINIST AND I DID NOT AGREE WITH THEIR WORLDVIEW BUT ALSO SAID, YOU KNOW, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION BECAUSE OF THE TO UNDERSTAND.

AND THAT CERTAINLY MADE SOME PEOPLE RESPOND WITH ABSOLUTELY NOT, I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU, YOU KNOW, A FEMINIST IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

A FEW PEOPLE THAT AND IN SOME CASES THOSE PEOPLE ENCOURAGED OTHER PEOPLE TO SPEAK TO ME.

AND THEN OVER TIME, AS THE PROJECT EXPANDED, I STARTED SPEAKING TO FARMERS, SO PEOPLE WHO USED TO BE INVOLVED IN THIS SPACE BUT IN A SENSE THE RADICALIZED.

AND THAT REALLY OPENED UP A NEW, I DON'T KNOW, CATEGORY IN A WAY, BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE MOVEMENT ARE OFTEN MUCH MORE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER SEE THE PROCESS THE ENEMY, NO LONGER SEE FEMINISTS AS THE ENEMY.

SO I ALSO, YOU KNOW, WAS BARELY ABLE AT THAT POINT TO REALLY TAP INTO A WIDER NETWORK OF PEOPLE.

THAT BEING SAID AND THE CONCLUSION OF MY BOOK GOES INTO THIS, YOU KNOW, A JOURNALIST, I SPENT MANY HOURS FEELING INADEQUATE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE SAYING NO AND THEY KEPT SAYING NO, AND I WOULD ASK AGAIN AND IT WAS A NO AGAIN.

AND I HATE DEAD ENDS, RIGHT?

AS A JOURNALIST YOU JUST WANT TO GET SOMEBODY THAT WILL FINALLY SAY YES AND PICK UP THE PHONE.

ULTIMATE REALIZED IT WAS PART OF THE STORY, THAT THEY ARE NOT WANTING TO TALK TO THE MEDIA IS AN INDICATION FOR FIRST OF ALL WHAT THEY THINK OF THE MEDIA BUT IN THIS DAY AND AGE THEY DON'T NEED TRADITIONAL MEDIA.

THE OF SUMMARY PLATFORMS, SOME NEW MESSAGING SYSTEMS, SO MANY WAYS OF SPREADING THEIR MESSAGE WITHOUT ANY ENFORCEMENT OF TRUTH OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

AND SO, THAT TO ME WHEN IT FINALLY DAWNED ON ME THAT I WAS NOT FEELING SO MUCH AS I WAS NOT SEEING AN IMPORTANT THREAD OF THE STORY.

AND SO, I TRIED TO MAKE THAT PART OF THE BOOK AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: SO DO YOU THINK THE INTERNET AND SOCIAL MEDIA IS WHAT HAS ALLOWED THIS MAJOR RESURGENCE OF WHITE NATIONALISM?

I REMEMBER THINKING WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ELECTED THAT THERE WERE LARGE FACTIONS OF RURAL WHITE AMERICA WHO JUST -- YOU ARE NOT -- DID NOT SPEND MUCH TIME WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR, WERE NOT FAMILIAR WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR, AND THERE MIGHT BE SOME SORT OF POLITICAL BACKLASH.

LO AND BEHOLD, IN 2016, WE GOT DONALD TRUMP.

>> Seyward Darby: YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE STATISTICS I FOUND MOST STRIKING IN MY RESEARCH, AND IT CAME FROM THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER, WAS THAT IN 2009, SO, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST YEAR OF OBAMA'S FULL PRESIDENCY, THE WEBSITE STORM FRONT, WHICH IS THE OLDEST, YOU KNOW, FAR RIGHT NEO-NAZI LIGHT ON THE INTERNET DATING BACK TO 1994, 1995, SAW A SURGE OF LIKE 100,000 NEW USERS, WHICH IS A LOT.

YOU KNOW, ON ONE HAND, 100,000 PEOPLE IS NOT THAT MANY AMERICANS PERCENTAGEWISE, BUT IT WAS A HUGE UPTICK IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE REGISTRY STRINGS WERE BEFORE.

BUT THEN ALSO TO ME, YOU KNOW, NOT EVERYBODY WHO THINKS IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE A BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE FINDS IT, YOU KNOW, UN-AMERICAN OR WHATEVER.

NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL JOIN STORM FRONT.

SO TO ME, THAT NUMBER ACTUALLY LOOKED LIKE SOMETHING BIGGER.

AND IN 2000 -- ALSO IN 2009, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY ISSUED A MEMO SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF UPTICK IN WHITE NATIONALISM OR WHITE SUPREMACISTS RHETORIC ONLINE AND WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF RECRUITMENT.

LIKE, THIS IS A SCARY MOMENT.

THAT REPORT WAS BURIED, MORE OR LESS.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, IN THIS MOMENT, AND CERTAINLY SINCE 2016, I THINK IT WAS A COMBINATION OF, YES, THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO HATED THE FACT THAT OBAMA HAD BEEN PRESIDENT ALL THAT TIME AND HAD AS MUCH TO DO WITH HIS POLICIES AS IT HAD TO DO WITH THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN, FRANKLY.

BUT THEN THEY HAD SOME OF THE TRUMP WHO WAS SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE.

AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS I'M INTERESTED IN RIGHT NOW IS, YOU KNOW, IN THE MIDST OF THE RESURGENCE OF BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS, I THINK THERE WILL BE BACKLASH TO THAT.

THEY WERE CERTAINLY CHATTER ON THE FAR RIGHT INTERNET ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A TERRIFYING MOMENT FOR THE WHITE RACE, YOU KNOW, BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE JUST PATENTLY FALSE.

BUT THE OTHER THING I WILL SAY, AND I FIND THIS SO DEEPLY IMPORTANT IN MY RESEARCH, IS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE DRAWING FROM A COMMUNAL WELL OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

THE THINGS THAT THEY BELIEVE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, WHAT POLITICALLY THE COUNTRY SHOULD LOOK LIKE, WITH THE NATURE OF AMERICAN HISTORY IS, THOSE THINGS ARE ACTUALLY -- THE THINGS THAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT OUR I THINK BELIEFS, IDEAS, MYTHS THAT ARE HELD BY A MUCH LARGER PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION.

THEY ARE PERHAPS EXAGGERATING THEM WHERE THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, EXPOSING THEM OR SPEAKING BLUNTLY ABOUT THEM, BUT IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT AS THOUGH THEY HAVE THESE WHOLLY ORIGINAL IDEAS.

THEY ARE TAKING THINGS VERY MUCH AT THE ROOT OF AMERICA AS WE KNOW IT AND MAKING IT THEIR RAISON D'CRE BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, PUTTING THEIR OWN SPIN, FRANKLY, ON IT.

MAKING IT INTO SOMETHING MORE UPSETTING.

I THINK THAT THAT ALLOWS THE MAINSTREAM TO OTHER, THE FAR RIGHT.

THINK OF THEM AS THEY MUST BE CRAZY, LIKE, THEY ARE WEIRDOS, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE SUCH HATEFUL, HORRIBLE PEOPLE.

WHEN IN FACT IF YOU REALLY BEAR DOWN AND LOOK AT WHAT IT IS THAT BELIEVE, THE WAY THEY SPEAK, IT'S NOT SO DIFFERENT WHEN YOU HEAR OTHER PEOPLE SPEAK.

>> Bonnie: WHAT YOU MEAN?

WHO ARE WOMEN WHO ARE OTHERED?

HOW SHOULD THEY BE DEALT WITH INSTEAD TO BECOME ADVOCATES, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, OF A MORE DIVERSE SOCIETY, WHICH IS ULTIMATELY WHERE AMERICA IS HEADED REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY WANT IT TO HEAD?

>> Seyward Darby: I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE REALLY IMPORTANT -- AND THIS IS SOMETHING I THINK ABOUT CONSTANTLY NOW.

YOU KNOW, EVERY DAY IN THE THINGS THAT I SAY, DECISIONS THAT I MAKE ARE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT I'M DOING?

THROUGH THE WORLD, IN WAYS THAT THE WOMEN OF THE FAR RIGHT MIGHT ACTUALLY APPROVE OF?

I THINK WHEN WE THINK ABOUT OPPORTUNITY HOARDING OR, YOU KNOW, DECISIONS THAT YOU'RE MAKING IN THE INTEREST OF YOUR CHILDREN BUT DECISIONS THAT REINFORCE INEQUALITY OR THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE, FRANKLY, INVOLVE CODED LANGUAGE ABOUT THINGS LIKE RACE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR WOMEN ESPECIALLY, I MEAN, MEN CERTAINLY, BUT I THINK WOMEN AS SUCH IMPORTANT SOCIAL ACTORS, TO LOOK AT THE WAYS IN WHICH WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS HELPING PERPETUATE WHITE SUPREMACY, THE VERY WHITE SUPREMACY THAT THE FAR RIGHT FEEDS ON.

AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO SAY THIS.

THERE ARE ESPECIALLY A LOT OF WOMEN OF COLOR WHO FOR DECADES NOW HAVE BEEN SAYING BASICALLY WHITE WOMEN, CHECK YOURSELF!

YOU THINK YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THINGS, BUT YOU ARE NOT.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S HARD WORK, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY NECESSARY WORK BECAUSE THE WOMEN OF THE FAR RIGHT ARE VERY SAVVY IN TRYING TO APPEAL TO MAINSTREAM WOMEN BY SAYING I TOO AM JUST MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT MY CHILDREN IN MY COMMUNITY.

I TOO AM JUST TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, LEAD MY LIFE IN A WAY THAT MAKES ME FEEL HAPPY AND FULFILLED AND COMFORTABLE.

AND ALL OF THE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT EVEN BRINGING RACE PER SE INTO IT AT THAT POINT, BUT I THINK IT CAN BE VERY ALLURING TO HEAR THAT KIND OF TALK.

AND THEY KNOW THAT.

AND SO, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE POINTS OF FAMILIARITY AND THEN WORK TO, YOU KNOW, UNTANGLE OUR OWN COMPLICITY WITH VARIOUS FORMS OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

>> Bonnie: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR THREE YEARS OF WORK PULLING THIS TOGETHER AND HELPING PEOPLE WHO CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW WOMEN WOULD BE -- OR AT LEAST AT FIRST BLUSH THINK TO THEMSELVES, HOW COULD WOMEN BE INVOLVED IN THIS, TO BRIDGE THAT KNOWLEDGE GAP SOMEHOW.

I'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH SEYWARD DARBY, WHO WROTE THE BOOK "SISTERS IN HATE" ABOUT WOMEN IN THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT.

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