FOUNDATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> Bonnie: HELLO AND WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

I AM HOST BONNIE ERBE.

I AM JOINED THIS WEEK BY OUR LONGTIME PANELIST, WHO IS NOW A COMMENTATOR FOR CNN AND ABC NEWS AND HAS HER OWN PODCAST, TARA SETMAYER.

TARA, I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW MUCH I MISS YOU AND HOW MUCH WE MISS YOU AND WE ARE SO PROUD OF EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

WE JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHO YOU ARE AND TELL THE VIEWERS YOUR HISTORY AS A COMMENTATOR AND WHAT THE CONTRIBUTIONS THAT YOU HAVE MADE TO COMMENTARY, STARTING WITH YOU IN THE FIRST, PROBABLY THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO BE ANTI-TRUMP, BUT CERTAINLY THE FIRST REPUBLICAN OF COLOR WERE THE FIRST FEMALE REPUBLICAN.

BUT AS I RECALL, THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO COME OUT THERE AND SAY, UH-HUHTHIS GUY IS NOT A REPUBLICAN.

>> Tara: YEAH.

>> Bonnie: FIRST OF ALL, WHY DID YOU DO IT SO EARLY?

SECONDLY, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO WATCH THE PARTY, BECAUSE IN THE BEGINNING, THE WHOLE COUNTRY WAS AGAINST HIM AS A CANDIDATE, BUT THEN MITCH McCONNELL AND ALL OF THOSE, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, LEADERS STARTED FOLLOWING BEHIND HIM.

WATCHING THAT WAS, I MUST TELL YOU, PAINFUL.

BUT YOU TELL ME HOW YOU FELT ABOUT IT AND WHY YOU CAME OUT AGAINST HIM SO SOON.

>> Tara: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, BONNIE.

IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME AND I DEFINITELY MISSED BY GALS OVER THERE AND ALL THE WONDERFUL EXPERIENCES WITH YOU FOR ALL THOSE YEARS AND I'M GLAD TO SEE YOU'RE STILL GOING STRONG.

YOU KNOW, I WAS ONE OF THE EARLY NATIONAL REPUBLICANS TO COME OUT AND SAY THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

YOU KNOW, IN THE BEGINNING, THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT, OKAY, THIS GUY IS A REALITY SHOW GUY, HE'S JUST DOING IT FOR ENTERTAINMENT.

I THINK MANY OF THE OTHER REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES AND THEIR CAMPAIGNS DID NOT TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY.

CABLE NEWS SAW IT AS A RATINGS OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE EVERY DAY WAS A SHOW WITH DONALD TRUMP.

YOU NEVER KNEW WHAT THE GUY WAS GOING TO SAY NEXT.

BUT THEN IT BECAME MUCH MORE THAN THAT AND HE STARTED TO GAIN MOMENTUM.

AND I THINK SO MANY PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATED HIM.

BUT I SAW THROUGH WHAT HE WAS DOING EARLY ON.

HIS ANNOUNCEMENT, JUST DONALD TRUMP IN AND OF HIMSELF, THE GUY IS A CARICATURE.

HE WAS NEVER TAKEN SERIOUSLY EVER.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS ON THE APPRENTICE AND HE BANKRUPTED THE CASINOS.

I'M FROM NEW JERSEY, SOME VERY FAMILIAR WITH DONALD TRUMP AND HIS FAILED HISTORY AS A BUSINESSMAN.

SO I WAS ONTO HIM EARLY.

WILL CONCERN ME WAS HOW QUICKLY REPUBLICANS STARTED TO, WHAT THEY SAW HE WAS GAINING MOMENTUM, HOW A LOT OF REPUBLICANS STARTED TO RATIONALIZE AND JUSTIFY THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS SAYING AND DOING THAT WERE SO ANATHEMA TO WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY STOOD FOR FOR YEARS.

I SAID, THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING, LIKE, WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

IT WAS AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

BUT I KNEW THERE WAS NEVER ONE MOMENT FOR ME WHERE I EVER FELT AS THOUGH MY OPPOSITION TO DONALD TRUMP WAS NOT THE RIGHT SIDE.

I KNEW VERY EARLY ON THAT WHETHER, WIN OR LOSE, I WAS STANDING UP FOR INTEGRITY, I WAS STANDING UP FOR HONESTY, FOR DECENCY, AIN'T EVEN AS A CONSERVATIVE, I WAS STANDING UP FOR CONSERVATISM, BECAUSE WHAT DONALD TRUMP REPRESENTS AND WHAT HE RAN ON AND HOW HE CONDUCTS HIMSELF EVEN NOW AS A PRESIDENT, THERE'S NOTHING CONSERVATIVE ABOUT THAT.HE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY HIM, BUT CONSERVATISM AND WHAT THAT IS, THE IDEOLOGY, IS NOT TRUMP'S ISM AND I'M STILL VERY PROUD OF THE FACT THAT I OPPOSE HIM AND CONTINUE TO CALL OUT THE HYPOCRISY, BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO.

>> Bonnie: WAS A MORE HIS VISIT AND CEILINGS -- DEALINGS, WHICH AS FAR AS I CAN TELL FROM HAVING DONE A LOT OF READING, WHAT HE WOULD DO, HE WOULD BUY A PROPERTY, LEVERAGE IT TO THE MAX, TAKE OUT A BIG OF A LOAN AS HE COULD, POCKET MOST OF IT AND THEN STIFF THE CONTRACTORS AND SUBCONTRACTORS WHO DID THE RENOVATIONS FOR HIM.

SO WASN'T THE WAY HE EARNED HIS MONEY?

WAS IT THE FACT THAT HE SAID ON HOWARD STERN AND ANYBODY WHO WOULD PUT HIM ON THE AIR, ESSENTIALLY BACK THEN, YOU KNOW, GRAB WOMEN BY THE P AND THEY LIKE IT IF YOU'RE FAMOUS.

WAS IT FROM A MORAL PERSPECTIVE OR A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE?

WHAT ABOUT HIM WAS NOT CONSERVATIVE TO YOU?

>> Tara: IT WAS ALL OF IT, ALL OF IT, EVEN JUST OUTSIDE OF EVEN THE POLITICAL DIFFERENCES.

HE'S JUST AN INDECENT HUMAN BEING AND DISHONEST AND BIGOTED.

YOU NOW, I RECOGNIZE THE BIGOTRY IN DONALD TRUMP THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER FROM THE CENTRAL PARK FIVE TO THE WAY HE TREATED BLACK DEALERS AT HIS CASINOS AND THERE WERE LAWSUITS AGAINST THAT TWO ITEMS WRITTEN IN BOOKS ABOUT COMMENTS HE'S MADE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HE NEVER WANTED A BLACK PERSON ACCOUNT HIS MONEY BECAUSE THEY ARE LAZY.

I MEAN, THESE ARE THINGS, AN ESTABLISHED PATTERN OF BIGOTRY WITH DONALD TRUMP THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING I COULD OVERLOOK.

IT WASN'T JUST THE PARLANCE OF THE TIME WHERE SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING ONCE 40 YEARS AGO.

IT WAS A PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR, YOU KNOW, ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE HOUSING DISCRIMINATION LAWSUIT IN THE '70s, THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS PART OF WHO HE WAS.

THAT WAS PROBLEMATIC.

ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT, LIKE I SAID, I'M FROM NEW JERSEY, SO I GREW UP WITH THE NEW YORK TABLETS INTERESTING THE WAY HE CONDUCTED HIMSELF IN PUBLIC AND VERY PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND JUSTICE MISOGYNY TOWARDS WOMEN, THOSE ARE THINGS THAT I WOULD NEVER WANT, NOT ONLY IN A LEADER, BUT JUST IN ANY MAN IN ANY POSITION OF POWER.

IT'S JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE.

SO, AND THEN OF COURSE THE STUFF WITH BARACK OBAMA.

I WAS NOT A FAN OF BARACK OBAMA'S POLITICS, BUT THIS IDEA THAT HE WAS NOT BORN IN THIS COUNTRY AND HOW DONALD TRUMP PERSONALLY FINANCED EFFORTS TO TRY TO PROVE THIS, AND MEAN, THESE WERE JUST ABSURD THINGS THAT WERE VERY MUCH ON THE FRINGE.

AND I SAW THIS ENTERTAINMENT REALITY SHOW CARICATURE AND HIS CONMAN WAY OF GETTING PEOPLE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING HE SAID, I SAW THAT AS A PROBLEM.

I WAS LIKE, WE'VE GOT TO CALL THIS OUT AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE THINGS HE SAYS.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, DURING THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK HE GOT A PASS ON A LOT OF THINGS.

AND BY THE TIME PEOPLE STARTED TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, IT WAS TOO LATE AND NOW HERE WE ARE.

AND I BELIEVED AND STILL BELIEVE THAT HE'S AN X ESSENTIAL THREATENS THE HEALTH OF OUR REPUBLICAN THAT OUR COUNTRY WILL NOT LOOK THE SAME IF HE IS REELECTED FOR ANOTHER FOUR YEARS.

>> Bonnie: I KNOW YOU PERSONALLY TO BE VERY DEEPLY RELIGIOUS.

DO YOU THINK HE BELIEVES IN GOD?

>> Tara: I DON'T THINK DONALD TRUMP LEAVES IN ANYTHING BUT DONALD TRUMP.

ONE OF THE MOST ALARMING ASPECTS OF HIS RISE TO POWER AND HIS POPULARITY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN THE ABJECT HYPOCRISY OF EVANGELICALS WHO SUPPORT THIS MAN WHO IS MORALLY REPUGNANT AND WHO IS NOT ONLY PANDERING TO THEM.

WHAT IS OBVIOUS ABOUT IT.

I MEAN, IT'S MIND-BLOWING.

IT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING, BECAUSE THE EVANGELICALS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE MORAL CONSCIENCE OF SOCIETY, THE COMPANY OF REPUBLICANS, THE MORAL MAJORITY, THE CHRISTIAN COALITION, THESE WERE THE GRASSROOTS PART OF THE REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT IN THE '90s EVEN.

AND TO WATCH THESE SAME PEOPLE WHO EXCORIATED BILL CLINTON FOR HIS TRANSGRESSIONS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WHICH ARE NOWHERE CLOSE TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE AS FAR AS IMPACTING THE COUNTRY, YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU WANT ABOUT WHAT BILL CLINTON DID WITH AN INTERIM MORALLY, BUT HOW TO IMPACT HIS ABILITY TO GOVERN?

THAT'S UP FOR DEBATE.

BUT THESE SAME PEOPLE AND THE LINDSEY GRAHAMS OF THE WORLD WHO ARE AROUND AT THE TIME AND JUST THE CRITICISM OF THE MORAL DEPRAVITY OF BILL CLINTON'S ACTIONS, THESE SAME PEOPLE ARE TURNING AROUND AND ARE PRAISING DONALD TRUMP AND HOLDING HIM UP AS IF HE'S THE SECOND COMING IS UNBELIEVABLY HYPOCRITICAL AND DISTURBING TO ME, AND IT'S ALL JUST FOR POLITICAL POWER BECAUSE THEY ARE GETTING A COUPLE PROBLEMS AND HE KNOWS HOW TO PANDER, GIVES THEM THIS OR THAT AND A COUPLE JUDGES AND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM ASK, AND THEN EVERYTHING ELSE IS OKAY.

THE MEANS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE ENDS AND WE AS A PARTY, AS CONSERVATIVES, AS CHRISTIANS NEVER BELIEVED THAT UNTIL NOW, APPARENTLY, UNDER DONALD TRUMP.

I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE ONE OF THE GREATEST FAILURES OF THIS POLITICAL TIME WHEN THE HISTORY BOOKS ARE WRITTEN.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THAT.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO LOSE IN NOVEMBER?

>> Tara: I HAVE NO IDEA.

AFTER 2016, I'M OUT OF THE PREDICTION BUSINESS.

I DON'T KNOW.

ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN.

WHO KNOWS?

BUT MY HOPE IS THAT HE LOSES IN NOVEMBER.

OBVIOUSLY, I'M USING ALL OF THE OPPORTUNITIES IN THE PLATFORM I HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT HE LOSES IN NOVEMBER.

YOU KNOW, I'LL BE VOTING FOR A DEMOCRAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY POLITICAL LIFE FOR PRESIDENT, AND I'LL BE PROUD TO CAST THAT VOTE.

I THINK JOE BIDEN, DESPITE HIS FLAWS AND SOME OF HIS POLITICAL BELIEFS THAT I DON'T SHARE, BUT THOSE ARE POLICY DIFFERENCES, THE STATE OF THIS COUNTRY WE ARE IN TODAY, THOSE POLICY DIFFERENCES ARE SECONDARY.

WE NEED SOMEONE WHO IS A GOOD AND DECENT, EMPATHETIC, COMPASSIONATE, HONEST HUMAN BEING TO TRY TO HEAL THIS COUNTRY.

AND I THINK THAT JOE BIDEN IS THAT PERSON.

AND I WILL HAPPILY DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO HELP HIM WIN.

>> Bonnie: WILL THERE BE A DAY OF RECKONING FOR THE MITCH McCONNELL'S WERE LINDSEY GRAHAMS, ALL OF REPUBLICANS WHO USED TO CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE MORAL VALUES AND YOU REALLY DON'T HEAR THEM?

IT'S INTERESTING YOU DON'T HEAR THEM TALK ABOUT THAT ANYMORE.

THEY KIND OF KNOW THEY HAVE LOST THAT.

DO YOU THINK A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF REPUBLICANS, YOURSELF INCLUDED, WILL TAKE OVER THE PARTY AND HAVE A DAY OF RECKONING FOR THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS, AND YET SUPPORTED A MAN LIKE THAT FOR PRESIDENT?

>> Tara: I THINK IF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS GOING TO SURVIVE, THAT HAS TO HAPPEN.

THERE HAS TO BE A PURGE OF EVERYTHING THAT TRUMP IS M REPRESENTS.

THERE HAS TO BE A ENCOURAGE OF ALL OF THE ENABLERS.

BECAUSE I BLAME THEM.

THEY'VE ENABLED TRUMP TO GET TO THIS POINT.

DONALD TRUMP IS WHO HE IS AND HE SHOWED US WHO HE WAS, RIGHT?

MAYA ANGELOU SAID IF SOMEONE SHOWS YOU WHO THEY ARE, BELIEVE THEM THE FIRST TIME.

DONALD TRUMP SHOWED US THAT.

BUT HIS ENABLERS MADE THE EXCUSES AND GIVE HIM COVER.

AND THEY ARE THE MOST SHAMEFUL ONES, BECAUSE THEY KNOW BETTER.

THE MITCH McCONNELLS, THE LINDSEY GRAHAMS, AND THE LIST UNFORTUNATELY IS QUITE LONG AT THIS POINT.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO ONLY -- THE ONLY WAY POLITICIANS RESPOND IS TO ELECT ORAL LOSS OF POWER.

THEY HAVE TO LOSE.

THEY HAVE TO BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE.

AND A NEW GENERATION OF REPUBLICANS WILL HAVE TO EMERGE THAT ARE NOT SULLIED WITH THE LEGACY OF STANDING UP FOR DONALD TRUMP IN COMPLETE OPPOSITION TO EVERYTHING THEY STOOD FOR IN THEIR CAREERS PRIOR TO THAT.

I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW YOU GET AWAY FROM IT.

THEY'VE ABSOLUTELY ABDICATED ALL MORAL AUTHORITY.

THEY'VE ABDICATED THE ARGUMENT OF LAW & ORDER, BECAUSE THIS PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SO LAWLESS AND DISRESPECTFUL OF THE CONSTITUTION.

THE IDEA OF A FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY, OUT THE WINDOW, THE DEFICITS IN THE BUDGET DEFICITS ARE JUST POLLUTING UNDER THIS PRESIDENT.

HE IS SPENDING WITH RECKLESS ABANDON.

WHEN I WORKED IN CONGRESS, I MEAN, WE USED TO HAVE SESSION DURING CHRISTMAS BREAK BECAUSE OF THE DEBT AND THE DEBT CEILING AND ARGUMENTS OVER FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.

THAT IS OUT THE WINDOW.

SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT GROUNDS REPUBLICANS HAVE TO STAND ON, EVEN WITH POLICY, TO CLAIM, TO JUST ACT LIKE WE WILL NOT REMEMBER WHAT THEY DID UNDER DONALD TRUMP.

YEAH.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE A RECKONING.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF WHO FEEL POLITICALLY HOMELESS BECAUSE OF THIS.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A DEMOCRAT, I'M NOT A PROGRESSIVE AS FAR AS POLICY IS CONCERNED.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

HOWEVER -- SO I NEVER JOINED THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT AS LONG AS WE HAVE A TWO-PARTY SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY, PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO MAKE CHOICES HERE AND IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOT TO GO THE WAY OF THE WHIGS IF THERE IS NOT A RECKONING AND PURGING OF WHAT TRUMPISM HAS PERVERTED THE PARTY INTO, CONSTRUCTED THE PARTY INTO OVER THE LAST SIX, SEVEN YEARS.

>> Bonnie: BUT YOU ARE PART OF THE LINCOLN PROJECT WITH GEORGE CONWAY, RIGHT, AND KELLY ANN'S HUSBAND WHOM WE BOTH KNOW VERY WELL FROM HER YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS OF BEING A PANELIST ON "TO THE CONTRARY".

WHAT ARE THE PLANS FOR THE LINCOLN PROJECT AFTER THE ELECTION, ASSUMING, YOU KNOW, WHICH NOT EVERYBODY IS ASSUMING, I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT ASSUMING BIDEN WINS, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS GOING TO DO AS FAR AS TRYING TO REVAMP THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH WILL BE ON EVERYBODY'S MIND IF HE DOES NOT WIN REELECTION?

>> Tara: YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WITH THE, YOU KNOW, WITH THE LINCOLN PROJECT, OUR SELF FOCUS RIGHT NOW IS NOVEMBER 3 BECAUSE IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE THAT DONALD TRUMP DOES NOT WIN REELECTION.

THERE REALLY HAS NOT BEEN A LARGE DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER.

THERE ARE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, PART OF LIKE STANDUP REPUBLIC THAT HAS A BIT MORE OF A LONGER-TERM FOCUS ON HOW DO WE PROTECT INSTITUTIONS, DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS AND IDEALS BECAUSE TRUMPISM IS NOT JUST GOING TO MAGICALLY GO AWAY ON NOVEMBER 4 IF TRUMP LOSES.

SO I THINK THERE IS OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE LOOKING AT THAT LONG TERM, WOULD WE DO?

AS FAR AS THE LINCOLN PROJECT IS CONCERNED, I'M SURE THERE WILL BE A ROLE AFTER BUT THE SOLE FOCUS RIGHT NOW IS MAKING SURE THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THE THREAT THAT DONALD TRUMP LOSES AND THAT WE JUST CANNOT PUT UP WITH ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF THIS, AND IT'S THE FOOT ON THE GAS, NOT LETTING UP UNTIL NOVEMBER 3.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

SO STANDUP REPUBLIC IS NOT WANT THAT I HAVE HEARD OF.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT ARE THEY PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> Tara: YEAH.

SO STANDUP REPUBLIC WAS FORMED AFTER THE 2016 ELECTION BY EVAN McMULLEN AND MINDY FINN, WHO RAN AS CONSERVATIVE INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES AND WHO I VOTED FOR, ACTUALLY, IN 2016.

AND THEIR FOCUS HAS REALLY BEEN, LIKE I SAID, TO PROTECT, WE NEED TO PROTECT DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS AND NORMS AND IDEALS WHICH HAVE BEEN UNDER ASSAULT SINCE DONALD TRUMP STEPPED FOOT IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

SO THE IDEA IS TO BE NONPARTISAN AT THIS POINT AND TO TRY TO BRING TOGETHER THE MIDDLE, BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE CENTERLEFT AND CENTER-RIGHT THAT BOTH BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO START HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE WHO HAVE CHIPPED AWAY AT THOSE INSTITUTIONS.

YOU KNOW, FROM WHAT BILL BARR IS DOING IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND, YOU KNOW, WILL CONGRESS HAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN, WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THE JUDICIARY, THESE ARE THINGS WHERE WE NEED TO HOLD FOLKS ACCOUNTABLE.

SO, THE IDEA IS TO GET THE THOUGHT LEADERS AND STAKEHOLDERS AROUND THE COUNTRY, ON BOTH STATE, LOCAL, AND FEDERAL LEVEL, TO MAKE SURE THOSE INSTITUTIONS ARE LIVING UP TO THE IDEALS THAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAVE FOR THEM.

AND IF THAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, WARMING A NEW PARTY OR IF THAT MEANS THAT WE ARE ABLE TO FIND CANDIDATES WHO ARE MORE IN LINE WITH TRADITIONAL CONSERVATISM AND TRY TO GET SOME SENSE OF NORMALCY BACK TO GOVERNING, THEN YOU CAN WORK ON CANDIDATE RECRUITMENT, THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT IT IS MORE OF AN IDEA OF GETTING PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO YOU WANT TO PROTECT THOSE INSTITUTIONS.

BECAUSE IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT STRUCTURE, WE DON'T HAVE THE INTEGRITY OF THOSE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, THEN THE REPUBLIC CAN'T FUNCTION.

>> Bonnie: YOUR TIME AT HARVARD AS A FELLOW, TELL ME HOW YOU DID THAT AND WHAT YOU LEARNED AND HOW IT WAS.

>> Tara: IT WAS AN ABSOLUTE DELIGHT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE A PART OF THE HARVARD FAMILY.

I NEVER SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN CAMBRIDGE OR BOSTON, AND I JUST ABSOLUTELY FELL IN LOVE WITH THE CITY AND THE AREA, THE HISTORY THERE, ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE LIKE US IN POLITICS WHO LIKE HISTORY.

IT WAS JUST FASCINATING TO BE IMMERSED IN ALL OF THAT.

BUT THE STUDENTS AT HARVARD, PART OF THE INSTITUTE OF POLITICS PROGRAM, THEY ARE THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST.

AND THEY HAVE REALLY RESTORED MY FAITH IN THE YOUNGER GENERATION.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES I WORRY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT LIKE, OH, MY GOODNESS, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION?

BUT SPENDING TIME WITH THOSE KIDS UP THERE, THEY WERE JUST PHENOMENAL, REALLY ACTIVE.

THEY UNDERSTAND THE GRAVITY OF THE SITUATION WE ARE IN, AND THEY ARE DEDICATED TO A LIFE OF PUBLIC SERVICE.

AND SO, TO BE ABLE TO BE AROUND THEM, THEY GAVE ME LIFE.T MADE ME FEEL YOUNG AGAIN.

I TREATED THEM LIKE MY FAMILY.

SO GRATEFUL.

THE COHORT OF OTHER FELLOWS WHO I WAS WITH, WE HAD A REALLY CLOSE KNIT TEAM AND THE STAFF AT THE IOP, THERE IS A RICH HISTORY THERE WITH THE KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT AND THE INSTITUTE OF POLITICS THAT I WAS REALLY, REALLY JUST THRILLED TO BE A PART OF THAT.

WHAT A PRIVILEGE.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT WAS CUT SHORT BY THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU LEARNED THERE, JUST IN A SENTENCE?

>> Tara: YEAH.

I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I LEARNED IS THE ABILITY TO APPRECIATE AND EXCHANGE OF IDEAS.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WE CAN ALL BE VERY SILENT IN WHAT WE BELIEVE.

BUT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT EXCHANGE OF IDEAS IN A NONJUDGMENTAL WAY WHERE EVERYONE IS LISTENING AND EAGER TO LEARN AND THEN PUT THAT INTO ACTION, I THINK THAT WAS, NOT NECESSARILY SOMETHING I LEARNED, BUT SOMETHING I WAS REMINDED OF.

THAT'S WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO.

>> Bonnie: LET'S GET BACK TO BIDEN'S VP SELECTION.

WHO WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IT BE?

>> Tara: WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T LIKE THE IDENTITY PART OF THESE THINGS.

AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A WOMAN AND MAKE HISTORY WITH THAT, I WISH BIDEN HAD NOT BACKED HIMSELF INTO THE CORNER, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THINGS CHANGE AND WE HAVE SEEN HOW DRASTICALLY THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN A COUPLE MONTHS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE BEST CANDIDATE.

I WOULD'VE LIKED TO SEE HIM PICK CORY BOOKER FROM MY HOME STATE OF NEW JERSEY.

I THINK HE WOULD'VE BEEN, HE WOULD HAVE BROUGHT SOME BALANCE TO THAT TICKET AND WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD VP, BUT -- >> Bonnie: BUT -- HE NEVER -- FORGET ABOUT THE WOMAN ASPECT OF IT, BUT FOR WHATEVER REASON, I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT BOOKER DID NOT TAKE OFF DURING THE DEBATES.

HE DIDN'T DO WELL.

I SEEM IS A VERY IMPRESSIVE INDIVIDUAL AS WELL.

BUT HE DID NOT.

IT DID NOT COME OUT WHEN HE WAS ON STAGE.

>> Tara: YEAH, I THINK IT'S BECAUSE HE WENT A LITTLE TOO GIMMICKY.

IN THE BEGINNING, HE TRIED TO DO THIS, LIKE WE'RE ALL PEACE AND LOVE KIND OF THING.

AND IT CAME ACROSS A LITTLE FORCED.

AND I THINK HE PROBABLY LEARNED HIS LESSON FROM THAT.

BUT I, YOU KNOW, HE, I THINK HE WOULD'VE BEEN A GOOD BALANCE TO BIDEN IN THIS ENVIRONMENT IF WE WERE TRYING, LOOKING FOR DIVERSITY AS WELL, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY ANYONE, DEMOCRATS WERE NOT GOING TO ALLOW TWO OLD WHITE GUYS ON THE TICKET.

I GET IT.

>> Bonnie: WELL, ALSO, IT'S MORE IMPORTANT, BECAUSE HE SAID HE WILL BE A ONE TERM PRESIDENT, IT --THERE IS MORE IMPORTANT WHO THE VP IS THIS TIME.

>> Tara: ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, IN MY IDEAL WORLD, IF I COULD'VE WAVED A MAGIC WAND, I WOULD'VE SEEN IT, WOULD HAVE LOVED TO SEEN A BIPARTISAN TICKET.

YOU KNOW, LIKE A BIDEN/KASICH OR BIDEN/CONDI RICE.

THOSE ARE MY DREAM TICKETS IF I COULD WAVE A MAGIC WAND.

BUT CURRENTLY, THE CURRENT CROP OF WOMEN THAT HE'S LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW, EXCELLENTHEY ALL REPRESENT THEIR OWN CHALLENGES, I THINK, NATURALLY FOR BIDEN.

BUT GIVEN THE CLIMATE THAT WE ARE IN NOW AND THE IDEA OF REFORMING POLICE AND THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT RACE, I THINK HE ABSOLUTELY AT THIS POINT, POLITICS, AND HE CHOOSE A WOMAN OF COLOR AND PROBABLY THE TOP TWO AT THIS POINT IN MY OPINION WOULD BE KAMALA HARRIS AND VAL DEMINGS.

I THINK THOSE ARE -- >> Bonnie: WELL, NEW YORK TIMES WAS SAYING AT LEAST EARLIER THIS WEEK DEMINGS AND MAYOR BOTTOMS.

WHY DO YOU SAY KAMALA HARRIS?

>> Tara: WELL, I MEAN, I HAD MY DIFFERENCES WITH KAMALA HARRIS IN THE BEGINNING AND SHE WOULD NOT BE MY FIRST CHOICE NECESSARILY, BUT THEY RECOGNIZE WHERE SHE BRINGS VALUE TO THE TICKET.

SHE HAS EXPERIENCED NOW ALREADY RUNNING AS A CANDIDATE.

SHE ALSO, AS A SENATOR AND AS SOMEONE WHO WORKED AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CALIFORNIA OF A MAJOR STATE, IS THIS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE I THINK THAT SHE BRINGS TO THE TICKET RIGHT AWAY -- >> Bonnie: RIGHT.

BUT IT'S PROSECUTORIAL EXPERIENCE, WHICH IS THE LAST THING AFRICAN-AMERICANS WENT TO SEE RIGHT NOW.

THAT'S WHY SHE DID NOT DO WELL.

>> Tara: RIGHT.

>> Bonnie: THAT'S PROBLEM COMES IN FOR HER.

BECAUSE THEN THAT'S THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT, WHERE SHE'S SEEN US SOMEONE WHO WASN'T NECESSARILY ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE DISCUSSION.

SO, THAT COULD BE WHY SHE HAS NOT BEEN OUT FRONT AS MUCH AS SOME OF THE OTHER ONES.

VAL DEMINGS HAS BECOME MORE OF A FRONT RUNNER CANDIDATE WHERE SHE WAS KIND OF A SECOND HERE BEFORE, SHE STOPPED HERE NOW.

SHE'S IMPRESSIVE.

SHE WAS A POLICE CHIEF AS A BLACK FEMALE COMING UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

YOU KNOW, SHE'S GOT GUTS AND THAT'S NOT EASY.

>> Bonnie: SHE CAME FROM NOTHING AND IT ALL HERSELF.

>> Tara: THE AMERICAN DREAM RIGHT THERE.

AND SHE HAS BEEN VERY IMPRESSIVE IN CONGRESS.

SO, I'D BE VERY CURIOUS TO SEE HOW SHE GOES.

BUT, YES, THIS TIME AROUND WHEN YOU HAVE THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, IT'S NOT USUALLY AS CONSEQUENTIAL AS BEING IN POLITICS TRY TO MAKE IT.

BUT THIS TIME IT MATTERS BECAUSE BIDEN WILL BE A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT WILL NECESSARILY BE THE HEIR APPARENT IN 2024.

SO I'M WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH LIKE EVERYONE ELSE TO SEE WHO HE PICKS.

IT WILL BE A BIG DEAL.

>> Bonnie: QUICK BOX ON MAYOR BOTTOMS.

NOT ENOUGH EXPERIENCE?

>> Tara: NOT ENOUGH EXPERIENCE.

I PUT HER IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS LIKE THE STACEY ABRAMS AND SOME OF THOSE FOLKS WHERE UP AND COMERS, RISING STARS DOING REALLY WELL IN THEIR RESPECTIVE SPACES, BUT JUST NOT READY TO BE VICE PRESIDENT OR TO BE A HEARTBEAT AWAY FROM THE PRESIDENCY AT THIS POINT THE WHEN ONE QUICK QUESTION: MAYOR LUJAN OF NEW MEXICO, A VERY STRONG CANDIDATE, BUT HOW WOULD AFRICAN-AMERICAN VOTERS REACT IF IT'S A WOMAN OF COLOR AND SHE'S LATINA BUT NOT A BLACK WOMAN?

>> Tara: I REALLY THINK THAT BLACK VOTERS ARE NOT AS MARRIED TO THE IDEA WHERE IT HAS TO BE A BLACK FEMALE.

I MEAN, YOU RUN THE RISK OF IT BEING, LOOKING LIKE PANDERING ALSO TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.

YOU KNOW, WE WANT THE BEST CANDIDATE.

THE BLACK COMMUNITY WANTS TO WIN.

DO THEY WANT REPRESENTATION?

YES, ABSOLUTELY, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF NOT WINNING.

YOU KNOW, THE ALTERNATIVE SO MUCH WORSE.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE WOULD BE AN ISSUE WHATSOEVER, THE NEW MEXICAN GOVERNOR WAS ELECTED.

BUT, AGAIN, I JUST DON'T KNOW SHE'S HIGH-PROFILE ENOUGH.

AND, YOU KNOW, NEW MEXICO IS NOT NECESSARILY ESTATE THAT BRINGS ANY ELECTORAL ADVANTAGE OR EVEN THAT REGION.

BUT THE HISPANIC VOTE IS AN IMPORTANT BILL ALSO, BUT THEY ARE ALREADY LEANING TOWARD BIDEN, GIVEN TRUMP'S REALLY UGLY IMMIGRATION RHETORIC IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, THAT IS A WHOLE OTHER DISCUSSION.

SO, YEAH, I THINK EXPERIENCE MATTERS AT THIS POINT.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH, TARAE MISS YOU SO, SO MUCH.

AND WE HOPE TO SEE YOU BACK ON THE SHOW SOON.

PLEASE, IN BETWEEN THIS WEEK AND NEXT WEEK WHEN WE DO A NEW SHOW, PLEASE VISIT US ONLINE AT WWW.PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY AND WATCH US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM AND ALL OF THE REST OF THAT.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.FOUNDATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.