[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

THIS WEEK'S WOMEN THOUGHT LEADER IS YAA GYASSI, SHE'S ORIGINALLY FROM GHANA, SHE'S THE AUTHOR OF TWO NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLERS, THE FIRST WHICH, IN 2016 WAS HOME GOING, ABOUT A FAMILY, MULTI-GENERATIONS OF SEVERAL FAMILIES ORIGINALLY FROM GHANA AND HOW THE YOUNG CHILDREN AND UP IN THE UNITED STATES; AND MORE RECENTLY TRANSCENDING KINGDOM.

BUT WERE HERE TO TALK TO HER MAINLY ABOUT HER BOOK ABOUT THE FAMILIES OF THE DME'S PEOPLE AND HOW THEY THROUGH HISTORY AND THE PROLIFERATION OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN AUTHORS ON THE BOOKS IN TODAY.

SHE HAS REALLY SEEN AS ONE OF, IF NOT THE MOST GIFTED GROUP OF A LARGE GROUP, BUT -- AND LARGER THAN EVER BEFORE IN PUBLISHING HISTORY, LARGE IMPRINTS SUCH AS SIMON & SCHUSTER NOW HAVE SPECIFICALLY YOUNG BLACK WOMEN LABELS OR SUB, SUBSECTORS THAT THEY PRINT.

BUT I WANT TO TALK TO YOU IS POSSIBLY THE LEADER OF -- OR THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST ONE INTO THE POOL, SO TO SPEAK, OF YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN AUTHORS IN THIS COUNTRY.

DO YOU THINK "HOMEGOING" WAS A SEMINAL BOOK IN WHAT HAS NOW BECOME MAJOR PUBLISHING HOUSES HAVE BLACK WOMEN, YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN IMPRINTS, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN UNHEARD OF EVEN A DECADE AGO?

DID YOU HELP START THAT?

AND HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT IT?

>> Bonnie: I CERTAINLY THINK THAT "HOMEGOING" IS A PART OF A LARGER GROUP OF BOOKS THAT ARE HELPING TO USHER IN NEW VOICES, YOUNG WRITERS OF AFRICAN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN HERITAGE.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS FIRST.

BEFORE ME IN 2015, ANGELA FLOURNOY PUBLISHED A NOVEL CALLED THE TURNER HOUSE THAT MADE WAVES.

A ANNA MATHIS PUBLISHED A NOVEL IN 2012, THAT WAS PART -- WAS ONE OF OPRAH'S BOOK CLUB PICKS.

EVEN IN THAT, IN THE AFRICAN IMMIGRANT LAND SCAPE, A DJ WHO HAS BEEN PUBLISHING FOR FAR LONGER THAN I HAVE, HAS BEEN HUGE, HUGE INFLUENCE IN THIS PARTICULAR SPHERE.

WHILE I'M HAPPY TO HAVE "HOMEGOING" AS A BOOK THAT OFFERS A WAY TO CONNECT THE DOTS BETWEEN THE AFRICAN EXPERIENCE AND THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, I KNOW THAT I AM ONLY THE TINIEST DROP IN THE BUCKET OF WRITERS WHO HAVE BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT THOSE TWO EXPERIENCES FOR FAR LONGER THAN I'VE BEEN ALIVE EVEN.

>> Bonnie: AND OF COURSE IF WE WANT TO GO BACK TO TONI MORRISON, WHO WAS THE PROGENITOR OF AFRICAN AMERICAN -- WELL, CERTAINLY TALKING ABOUT SLAVERY AND ITS IMPACT ON AFRICAN-AMERICANS, BUT ALSO MAGICAL REALISM INC.

IN THERE TOO, AS YOU DID IN "HOMEGOING", THERE IS A LONG LEGACY.

BUT NOW THERE SEEMS TO BE JUST A HUGE WAVE OF, OF PUBLISHERS WANTING THIS TYPE OF LITERATURE.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> Yaa Gyassi: WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY IS A COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY AND SO MANY OTHER ARTISTIC FIELDS ARE, THAT WILL ACTIVELY THE ARTISTS KIND OF SACRED AND DIVORCE FROM COMMERCE, IT IS INND I THINK PEOPLE IN THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY ARE AWAKE TO THE FACT THAT ALL THESE BOOKS BY BLACK WRITERS ARE HITTING THE BESTSELLER LIST DUE TO THE EVENTS OF THE DAY, THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT CERTAINLY HAD A HUGE IMPACT IN BRINGING NEW AUDIENCES TO BOOKS BY BLACK WRITERS, AND I KNOW THAT PUBLISHERS DON'T WANT TO MISS OUT ON THAT OPPORTUNITY.

FOR ME, THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THIS -- WHAT IS NOW A TREND, WILL HAVE LONG LEGS, WILL STICK AROUND FOR LONGER THAN JUST A SUMMER, JUST A YEAR, AND THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO SEE PEOPLE PICKING UP BOOKS BY BLACK AUTHORS, EVEN AFTER THE INITIAL DEMAND STARTS TO WEAN.

IT IS MY HOPE THAT AS MORE, MORE AUDIENCE MEMBERS, MORE READERS FIND THESE BOOKS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO PURCHASE MORE, MORE BOOKS BY BLACK WRITERS.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT THE JOURNEY TO GETTING PUBLISHED.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU?

>> Yaa Gyasi: YOU KNOW, I HAD A PRETTY SMOOTH JOURNEY TO GETTING PUBLISHED, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

I WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL, WHICH IS WHERE I STARTED WRITING OR WHERE I CONTINUED WRITING "HOMEGOING".

I HAVE STARTED IN COLLEGE.

I FINISHED IT AND GRADUATED -- >> Bonnie: WHAT YEAR WITH THAT HAVE BEEN WHEN YOU STARTED IT?

>> Yaa Gyasi: I STARTED WRITING "HOMEGOING" IN 2009 AND I SOLD IN 2015.

IT CAME OUT IN 2016.

SO IT WAS ABOUT A SEVEN YEAR JOURNEY.

BUT WHEN I WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL, I WENT TO THE IOWA WRITERS WORKSHOP WHERE THE PROGRAM WOULD OFTEN HAVE EDITORS AND AGENTS COME INTO KIND OF TALK TO US ABOUT THE BUSINESS SIDE OF THINGS, WHICH WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAD GIVEN ANY REAL THOUGHT TO HOW A BOOK LEAVES YOUR COMPUTER AND ENDS UP BEING SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CAN HOLD IN THEIR HANDS.

SO I'M GRATEFUL FOR THAT LESSON.

I SPENT SOME TIME FINDING AN AGENT.

BUT ONCE I FOUND ONE, THE PROCESS MOVED FAIRLY QUICKLY.

I WAS ABLE TO SEND THE BOOK TO MY AGENT WHO SENT IT TO EDITORS.

THE BOOK AND DEVELOP GOING INTO AUCTION AND FROM THERE THINGS MOVED VERY QUICKLY.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU THINK BECAUSE THERE HAS -- WILL THERE CONTINUE TO BE, AND DOES IT CONTINUE TODAY, YOUR BOOK WAS FINALLY PUBLISHED FOUR YEARS AGO, BUT IS THIS WAVE CONTINUING NOW FOR YOUNG AUTHORS OF COLOR?

>> Yaa Gyasi: I HOPE SO.

I'M NOT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE IN TERMS OF WRITERS WHO ARE HAVING BOOKS PUBLISHED IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

BUT MY, MY DESIRE IS THAT THIS MOVEMENT WILL HELP TO USHER IN NEW VOICES WHO MAY BE HAVE NOT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THEMSELVES PUBLISHED BEFORE THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN AFRICAN IMMIGRANT EXPERIENCE THAT IS OF SUCH GREAT INTEREST TO BOTH CONSUMERS RIGHT NOW?

IS IT BECAUSE WE ARE ON THIS THIRD GREAT WAVE OF IMMIGRATION, NOT JUST OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS, BUT OF ASIAN AMERICANS, OF CUBAN AMERICAN -- YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF IMMIGRANTS OF COLOR?

THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE LEAVING WESTERN EUROPE AND COMING TO THE UNITED STATES, IT'S MERELY PEOPLE OF COLOR COMING TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> Yaa Gyasi: I THINK OF THE BREAKOUT SUCCESS OF SOMEONE LIKE A DJ HAVING A HUGE IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S DESIRE TO READ MORE STORIES ABOUT AFRICAN IMMIGRANTS.

I THINK ANY TIME PEOPLE ARE KIND OF EXPOSED TO A NEW CULTURE, NEW IDEA AND ENJOY IT, ENJOY READING ABOUT THOSE THINGS, THEY SEEK OUT MORE WRITING IN THAT.

SO I THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE REACHING FOR BOOKS BY OTHER AFRICAN IMMIGRANTS, CERTAINLY THERE ARE MORE REASONS THAN THAT.

BUT THAT IS THE ONE THAT FIRST COMES TO MY MIND.

>> Bonnie: ARE YOU SAYING -- ARE THERE ALSO WAVES OF ASIAN IMMIGRANTS' BOOK?

I MEAN, AMY TOM YEARS AGO HAD A NUMBER OF BOOKS PUBLISH THAT WERE BESTSELLERS ABOUT THE CHINESE-AMERICAN EXPERIENCE OR THE CHINESE EXPERIENCE, BUT DO YOU SEE MORE YOUNG ASIAN AUTHORS BEING PUBLISHED?O YOU SEE MORE HISPANIC AMERICAN AUTHORS BEING PUBLISHED?

AND HOW IS THE LITERATURE DIFFERENT FROM THE LITERATURE OF PEOPLE BORN IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> Yaa Gyasi: I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW IF I'M THE RIGHT PERSON TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS, MOSTLY BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE FIGURES IN FRONT OF ME.

I'M CERTAINLY TRYING TO READ AS WIDELY AS I POSSIBLY CAN, WHICH MEANS THAT MY OWN READING HABITS DO TEND TO INCLUDE WRITERS OF ASIAN DESCENT, LATIN X WRITERS, AFRICAN WRITERS, WRITERS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD.

I TRY TO READ AT LEAST TWO BOOKS IN TRANSLATION EVERY YEAR.

BUT I KNOW THAT MY CONSUMPTION HABITS ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE AVERAGE AMERICAN'S CONSUMPTION HABITS.

SO IT WOULD BE HARD FOR ME TO SAY WHAT'S HAPPENING IN A TREND SINCE IN TERMS OF THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY.I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF AS A READER, AND I THINK THAT I TRY TO READ WIDELY.

>> Bonnie: WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU WANT AMERICANS TO CLEAN OUT OF "HOMEGOING"?

>> Yaa Gyasi: WELL, ONE THING THAT I HOPE THAT AMERICAN READERS WILL SEE THROUGH "HOMEGOING" IS THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY IS ONE OF THE STILL ONGOING, BY WHICH I MEAN THAT THE LEGACY OF THE SLAVE TRADE IS ONE THAT WE HAVE ALL INHERITED.

"HOMEGOING" FOLLOWS THE LEGACY OF THE FAMILY LINEAGE OF A WOMAN BORN IN THE GOLD COAST IN THE 18TH CENTURY AND IT MOVES DOWN TO THE PRESENT DAY.

AND IT TOOK ME ONLY ABOUT EIGHT GENERATIONS OR SO TO DO THAT.

AND SO, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SLAVERY, YOU KNOW, WE OFTEN THINK ABOUT IT -- SOME PEOPLE OFTEN THINK ABOUT IT AS THIS THING THAT HAPPENED HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO AND HAS NO BEARING ON OUR PRESENT.

BUT AS I WAS ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE, AGAIN THROUGH SEVEN OR EIGHT GENERATIONS, IS THAT, REALLY, WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY'S GRANDMOTHER, SOMEBODY'S GREAT-GRANDMOTHER BEING AN ENSLAVED WOMAN.

THAT HISTORY IS ACTUALLY QUITE NEAR.

IT'S NOT AS DISTANT PAST AS WE WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE.

SO I HOPE THAT "HOMEGOING" BRINGS THAT HOME ON A VERY VISCERAL LEVEL.

AS FOR THE TITLE, I BORROWED IT FROM THE WORD THAT HISTORICALLY USED TO REFER TO SLAVE FUNERALS.

THE IDEA WAS ONCE AN ENSLAVED PERSON PASSED AWAY, HIS OR HER SPIRIT COULD RETURN HOME TO THE COUNTRY, THE PLACE FROM WHICH THEY WERE STOLEN.

AND SO, "HOMEGOING," THE NOVEL, BECAUSE I THINK IT TRIES TO KIND OF ESTABLISH THIS LINEAGE FROM AFRICA TO AMERICA, IT FELT LIKE AN APPROPRIATE TITLE.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT THAT PROCESS.

I MEAN, THE HOME-GOING PROCESS.

TELL ME ABOUT THE FIRE WOMAN IN YOUR NOVEL.

THESE ARE REFERENCES TO LARGE SECTIONS OF THE BOOK IS WHAT I WOULD CALL MAGICAL REALISM.

OTHER PEOPLE HAVE OTHER NAMES FOR IT.

BUT YOU DELVE DEEPLY INTO GOLD COAST CULTURE, WHICH IS VERY MUCH BASED ON MYTHICAL FIGURES AND DREAMS BECOMING REALITY, THAT SORT OF THING.

>> Yaa Gyasi: YES.

WELL, THE GOLD COAST IS NOW PRESENT-DAY GHANA, THE COUNTRY IN WHICH I WAS BORN.

AND SO, I GREW UP CERTAINLY WITH SOME OF THE HISTORY AND THE CULTURE VMI FAMILY, THOUGH I GREW UP HERE IN THE STATES.

SO I WAS NOT COMPLETELY IMMERSED IN IT.

BUT I DID TRY AS BEST I COULD TO BRING IN SOME OF JUST THAT SENSE OF CULTURE AND HISTORY INTO THE BOOK.

PART OF THAT WAS THERE KIND OF MY FAMILIAL UNDERSTANDING, BUT MUCH OF IT WAS THROUGH RESEARCH.

AND SO, THINKING ABOUT JUST DIFFERENT PIECES THAT I READ THAT KIND OF CAPTURED THE SPIRIT AND THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE, BOOKS ON CULTURE AND HISTORY AND SPIRITUAL PRACTICES, AND ANYTHING THAT I COULD GET MY HANDS ON THAT WOULD ALLOW ME TO KIND OF ROUND OUT THAT WORLD.

BUT TO NOT SHY AWAY FROM THINKING ABOUT SPIRITUALITY AND MAGIC, AND I THOUGHT OF THIS BOOK, REALLY, AS A WAY OF KIND OF WRITING ALMOST A FABLE, A FABLE OR A FOLKTALE, SOMETHING THAT'S KIND OF MOLECULAR AND LARGER THAN LIFE.

>> Bonnie: I WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL AND WE STUDIED THE CIVIL WAR, BUT I GREW UP THINKING, WHY IS IT THAT AFRICAN-AMERICAN -- THAT ASIAN AMERICANS AND LATIN X AMERICANS HAVE SORT OF OVER -- DONE A BETTER JOB ECONOMICALLY THEN AFRICAN HAVE -- AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE OF RECOVERING ECONOMICALLY FROM DISCRIMINATION?

YOUR BOOK POINTS OUT, AS YOU SAID EARLIER, THAT DISCRIMINATION DID NOT END WITH SLAVERY.

THERE WAS PEONAGE.

THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, POLL TAXES, ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT PART AFRICAN-AMERICANS FROM BEING REPRESENTED IN THE VOTING PUBLIC, ETC., ETC., AND DENIED, BEING KEPT DOWN ECONOMICALLY, BEING KEPT IN LOW-WAGE, UNEDUCATED JOBS.

BUT YOU ALSO -- AND THAT WAS DONE VERY WELL IN THE BOOK, BUT YOU ALSO SHOW IN GREAT DETAIL THE PARTICIPATION BY AFRICAN TRIBES IN CATCHING AND SENDING THEIR OWN PEOPLE WERE THE PEOPLE NEXT DOOR, THE TRIBE NEXT DOOR INTO SLAVERY.

HOW MUCH DID THAT PLAY A PART IN THE -- FIRST OF ALL, EXPLAIN, PLEASE, WHY THEY DID IT.

AND HOW MUCH ARE THEY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONDITION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THIS U.S.?

>> Yaa Gyasi: SURE.

SO THE TWO ETHNIC GROUPS THAT I FOCUS ON IN "HOMEGOING" ARE THE ASHANTI AND THE FANTI.

THE ASHANTI AT THE TIME THAT THE BOOK HAD OPENED IT THROUGH 18TH-CENTURY GOLD COAST WERE INCREDIBLY POWERFUL, HAD A LOT OF WEALTH, A LOT OF GOLD AND HAD A VERY GREAT ARMY.

THE FANTE LIVED ON THE COAST AND WERE ALLIED WITH THE BRITISH.

THE ASHANTI LIVED MORE IN THE CENTRAL PART OF GHANA, THE GOLD COAST AT THE TIME, I SHOULD SAY, AND WERE ALLIED WITH THE DUTCH.

AND AS THE SLAVE TRADE WENT ON, THESE ETHNIC GROUPS, IN ADDITION TO OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS, YOU KNOW, CONTINUE TO PROVIDE PEOPLE FOR THE SLAVE TRADE FOR THOSE LARGER POWERS, FOR THE COLONIAL POWERS THAT HAD COME INTO THE COUNTRY.

AND AS TO WHY THIS HAPPENED, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS THAT HAPPENED FOR THE REASON THAT ANY ATROCITY HAPPENS, WHICH IS FOR MORE POWERPOINT I KIND POWER.

A KIND OF PURSUIT FOR POWER AND MONEY, INFLUENCE THIS.

BUT IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A KIND OF HIERARCHY OF POWER, A KIND OF WEB OF COMPLICITY.

SO FOR THESE PEOPLE TO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE INVASION OF THEIR COUNTRY, THE INVASION OF THEIR LAND BY THESE STRANGE PEOPLE AND WERE SCRAMBLING TO KIND OF GET A FOOTHOLD, CONTINUED CONTROLLING THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS, THEIR OWN PEOPLE, THEIR OWN LAND, AND I THINK THE SLAVE TRADE FELT LIKE AN OPPORTUNITY TO KEEP CONTROL, KEEP THE POWER.

I THINK THE OTHER WAY TO THINK ABOUT THE COMPLICITY OF THE GOLD COAST PEOPLE IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, HERE IN AMERICA, WE ARE VERY USED TO THINKING ABOUT RACE IN WAYS THAT PEOPLE WHO COME FROM A COUNTRY LIKE THE GOLD COAST, WHERE EVERYBODY IS THE SAME RACE AS THEM, DO NOT THINK ABOUT IT.

SO TO SAY THAT AFRICANS WERE SELLING EACH OTHER KIND OF, YOU KNOW, DOESN'T -- DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE FULL COMPLEXITY OF THAT SITUATION.

THEY DID NOT THINK OF THEMSELVES AS IN EACH OTHER.

THEY THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS, YOU KNOW, I'M FANTE, I AM ASHANTI, I'M GHANA, I AM A, SO THAT KIND OF NEIGHBOR SELLING NEIGHBOR THING DOES NOT TRULY CAPTURE THE NARRATIVE THAT PEOPLE WOULD'VE EXPERIENCED IT AT THE TIME.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

BUT IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE NOW, JUST NOW YOU GIVE ME A GREAT SORT OF INSIGHT INTO HOW THEY JUSTIFY TO THEMSELVES, OKAY, SO THEY DID NOT THINK THEY WERE SELLING, THEY WERE SELLING PEOPLE LIKE THEMSELVES INTO SLAVERY.

IS THAT HOW THEY DEALT WITH IT?

I MEAN, BECAUSE YOU DON'T GO MUCH IN THE BOOK INTO HOW AFRICANS FELT ABOUT FIGHTING AND CAPTURING ANOTHER GROUP, A DIFFERENT GROUP OF PEOPLE BUT STILL THE SAME COLOR AS THEY ARE AND SENDING THEM OFF INTO WHAT THEY KNEW WOULD BE THESE HORRIBLE TRIPS WHERE 10 PEOPLE WERE PILED ON TOP OF EACH OTHER AND PEOPLE ABOVE THE PEOPLE BELOW WOULD DIE AND THEY WOULD BE STUCK UNDER CORPSES FOR THE WHOLE TRIP OVER TO AMERICA.

AND THEN OF COURSE THE HORRORS OF SLAVERY HERE ONCE THEY GOT HERE.

A LIFE OF BEING WHIPPED, OF HAVING NOTHING, OF BEING FED -- OF BEING BEATEN FOR NO REASON.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT EMOTIONALLY WENT THROUGH THE MINDS OF THE ASHANTI AS THEY WERE CAPTURING AND SELLING THE OTHER TRIBES?

>> Yaa Gyasi: WELL, I THINK ONE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT AT THIS TIME, THERE WASN'T, A, THE KIND OF SPEED OF INFORMATION WE HAVE TODAY, OF COURSE, RIGHT, AS IMAGES TO DEPICT THE ATROCITIES THAT AS WE WOULD HAVE IT TODAY.

SO I THINK IT WAS VERY POSSIBLE TO NOT KNOW WHAT BECAME OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU SOLD.

ONCE THEY LEFT YOUR HANDS AND WENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE BRITISH, OF THE DUTCH, ETC.

AND SO, FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAD SLAVERY THEMSELVES BUT IN A VERY DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT CONTEXT OF SLAVERY WHERE THE ENSLAVED PERSON COULD EVENTUALLY PURCHASE THEIR FREEDOM, FOR EXAMPLE, THE IDEA OF AMERICAN CHATTEL SLAVERY.

>> Bonnie: AFTER THE ELECTION, OBVIOUSLY WE SAW RACISM COME TO SUCH AHEAD IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WHITE PEOPLE STORMED THE U.S. CAPITOL, DAMAGED VALUABLE ART IN THERE, AND TOOK IT OVER TOTALLY AGAINST THE LAW.

SCORES OF THEM ARE BEING PROSECUTED.

BUT HOW DOES "HOMEGOING" FIT INTO THIS FOR YOU ?

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN FOR AMERICA TO END ITS RACE PROBLEMS?

>> Yaa Gyasi: WELL, I THINK OF THE PROCESS OF RESEARCHING AND WRITING "HOMEGOING" TAUGHT ME ANYTHING, IT IS THAT WE ARE NOT SO FAR REMOVED FROM OUR HISTORY AS WE WOULD LIKE TO IMAGINE, AND THAT ALSO HISTORY IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE MADE AND REMADE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AS THIS QUOTE IS OFTEN ATTRIBUTED TO MARK TWAIN, BUT I'M NOT SURE IT'S NECESSARILY HIM WHO SAID IT, BUT HISTORY MAY NOT REPEAT, BUT IT DOES RHYME.

AND SO, THERE WAS A KIND OF CYCLICAL NATURE TO THE VIOLENCE AGAINST, AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT I THINK WE ARE NOT AS FAR REMOVED FROM AS WE WOULD LIKE TO IMAGINE.

EVEN BE THE PHRASE, WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS, THAT WE'VE BEEN HEARING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN THESE PAST FEW WEEKS I THINK DOESN'T QUITE CAPTURE THE TRUTH OF OUR HISTORY, WHICH IS A VIOLENT HISTORY.

AND HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, AS MORE PEOPLE START TO BE A, LAKE TO HOW CLOSE THE HISTORY OF ENSLAVEMENT AND JIM CROW TRULY IS, WE WILL BE ABLE TO KIND OF FINALLY START TO MAKE HEADWAY INTO CREATE LASTING RADICAL CHANGE.

>> Bonnie: AND ALL YOU NEEDED TO DO WAS LOOK AT -- LOOK AT THE GUY DRESSED UP WITH HORNS ON HIS HEAD AND THE CONFEDERATE FLAGS AROUND HIM AND SEVERAL SHOTS I REMEMBER SEEING OF PEOPLE REALLY SHOWING, DEMONSTRATING THEIR CONFEDERATE FLAGS IN THE U.S. CAPITOL.

AND THE FACT THAT WE HAD TO TAKE DOWN SO MANY MONUMENTS, AND THEY ARE STILL SO MANY MONUMENTS TO CONFEDERATE GENERALS WHO, AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, BUT IS THERE ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE THEY HONOR THE LOSERS?

NO.

STATUES ARE USUALLY PUT UP TO THE WINNERS.

SO IT WAS ANOTHER WAY TO OPPRESS PEOPLE, TO PUT UP THOSE STATUES.

DO YOU THINK -- DO YOU SEE A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION ON THE RACE ISSUE HERE ANYTIME SOON?

>> Yaa Gyasi: NO, I DON'T SEE A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO THE RACE ISSUE ANYTIME SOON.

I THINK EVEN CALLING IT THE RACE ISSUE IS A KIND OF DIMINISHMENT OF HOW DEEPLY ENTRENCHED THESE PROBLEMS ARE IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT'S KIND OF -- IT IS FOUNDATIONAL TO AMERICA.

AND IN ORDER TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO MOVE PAST IT I THINK WOULD REQUIRE, AGAIN, RADICAL CHANGE THAT I'M NOT SURE PEOPLE ARE QUITE READY TO CONFRONT.

I HOPE THAT, YOU KNOW, I TRY TO REMAIN HOPEFUL AND OPTIMISTIC, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, A SMALL CHANGE HERE, A SMALL CHANGE THERE IS ENOUGH TO COVER THIS WOUND OR HEAL THIS WOUND .

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THESE INSIGHTS AND ALL YOUR OTHER INSIGHTS.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

GOOD LUCK WITH THIS BOOK AND FUTURE BOOKS.

AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY".

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