>> Bonnie Erbe: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", FIRST A NEW REPORT SHOWS A STAGGERING NUMBER OF WOMEN LOOKING TO DOWNSHIFT OR DROP OUT OF THE WORKFORCE.

THEN THE NUMBER OF FEMALE GOVERNORS IS AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH .

BUT CAN THEY HANG ON?

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF ISSUES AFFECTING DIVERSE COMMUNITIES.

UP FIRST, A BLESSING OR A CURSE?

DESPITE MORE WORK FROM HOME OPPORTUNITIES THAN EVER, ALMOST HALF OF WOMEN REPORT FEELING BURNED OUT.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT FROM McKINSEY AND COMPANY AND LANE LEANIN.ORG.

THE REPORT ALSO FOUND THAT ONE IN THREE WOMEN SAY THEY HAVE CONSIDERED DROPPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE FOR DOWNSHIFTING THEIR CAREERS.

WORK FROM HOME WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE GREAT EQUALIZER, BUT MORE WOMEN THAN MEN REPORT EXPERIENCING WORK DRIVEN BURNOUT SINCE THE ONSET OF THE PANDEMIC, AND YET ALMOST 7 IN 10 WOMEN SAID THEY WANTED TO KEEP WORKING REMOTELY EVEN AFTER THE PANDEMIC SUBSIDES.

NO COMMUTE COME A COST SAVINGS, AND WORKLIFE BALANCE IMPROVEMENTS WERE MENTIONED AS INDISPENSABLE PERKS FOR REMOTE WORKERS.

HOWEVER, THERE'S MORE WOMEN SHIFT WORK-FROM-HOME JOB, RESEARCH FINDS THAT REMOTE WORK COULD HAVE MORE PITFALLS THAN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE D.C.

DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, CARRIE LUKAS, PRESIDENT OF THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM; SAM BENNETT, NOW OF THE NEW AMSTERDAM NEWS; AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST RINA SHAH BHARARA.

SO, ELEANOR, WHY ARE WOMEN FEELING SO BURNED OUT WHEN REMOTE WORK WAS SUPPOSED TO HELP ALL OF THAT?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: REMOTE WORK HAS HELPED, BUT IT'S ALSO MEANT THAT WOMEN MUST TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN WHO HAD TO STAY HOME FROM SCHOOL.

SO FOR THE FIRST TIME WOMEN WERE TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AND YET TRYING TO WORK REMOTELY.

SO THAT HAS LEFT WOMEN WITH MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT WORKING AT HOME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

BUT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT TALKED ABOUT IN THE REPORT, NOR IN OTHER REPORTS, WHICH SAY THE OPPOSITE.

THERE IS A REPORT OUT THAT SAYS WOMEN ARE THRILLED WITH WORKING FROM HOME.

HOW DO YOU POSSIBLY GET YOURSELF ON YOUR BOSS'S -- WITHIN YOUR BOSS'S PURVIEW AND, YOU KNOW, SHOUT OUT FOR THIS IS WHAT I'M DOING AND HERE I WANT THE NEXT PROMOTION, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, THE KINDS OF THINGS MEN DO BUT USUALLY IN PERSON IF YOU ARE WORKING FROM HOME.

AREN'T YOU -- RINA, STARTING WITH YOU, AREN'T YOU PUTTING YOURSELF AT A HUGE DISADVANTAGE BY NOT BEING IN THE OFFICE?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: I THINK THAT'S BEEN A PRETTY ROBUST PUBLIC DEBATE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN AN OFFICE SETTING, WHAT IT MEANS TO BE OUTSIDE OF THE OFFICE SETTING.

TO ME, THERE ARE FIVE WORDS THAT COME TO MIND: FLEXIBLE WORK IS THE FUTURE.

AND I THINK ANY EMPLOYER WHO IS NOT THINKING ABOUT THAT PHRASE, AND OFTEN IS ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO BE A VERY GOOD EMPLOYER IN THE COMING YEARS FOR THE CHANGING AMERICAN WORKFORCE, AND THAT INCLUDES WOMEN LARGELY, BECAUSE WHAT WE SAW LAST YEAR THE DROP OFF THAT HAPPENED, MUCH LIKE THE CONGRESSMAN SAID.

THOSE HAPPENED BECAUSE REMOTE WORK AT TIMES MEANT THAT YOU COULD TAKE ON SOME OF THE OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE HOUSEHOLD, CASING BUILDS BETWEEN MEETINGS, MAKE SOME SANDWICHES INSTEAD OF RUNNING AROUND, WHATEVER WAS AROUND THE OFFICE CORNER.

THINGS LIKE THAT WERE EASIER AND A LOT OF SORT OF REST WE GET IN BETWEEN WORK.

BUT WHAT HIS WORK, EVEN?

THINK THE FUTURE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT FLEXIBILITY, IT MEANS THAT WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE CONSTRAINTS OF CHILDCARE AND, FRANKLY, THE LOCKDOWN SET OF LAST YEAR.

SUCH AN DISADVANTAGE AND WOMEN BECAUSE OF THE FACT IT WAS OVERWHELMINGLY WOMEN WHO TOOK ON THAT HOMESCHOOLING RESPONSIBILITY.

SO REMOVING THE AND TALKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF WORK IS SO IMPORTANT TO INCLUDE THE CONVERSATION CENTERED ON WOMEN BECAUSE OF THE VERY DIFFERENT SHARES OF WORK THAT WOMAN PUT ON TOP OF ALREADY PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO, SAM, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME PREFACE ALL OF THIS BY SAYING THAT THE LEAST WELL-PAID WOMEN IN OUR ECONOMY AND THE ONES WE DEPEND ON MOST, LIKE SERVERS AT RESTAURANTS, LIKE FIRST RESPONDERS, LIKE ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO CANNOT DO THEIR WORK COMPLETELY REMOTELY, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN THAT -- THEY CAN'T BE HELPED BY WORKING FROM HOME.

>> Sam Bennett: WELL, BONNIE, I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE COVID PANDEMIC, WITH MORE WOMEN WORKING FROM HOME FOLLOWED BY THIS REPORT, IS POINTING TO THE SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS THAT EXIST THAT MAKE IT SO DIFFICULT FOR WOMEN TO ACHIEVE WHAT WE LIKE TO THINK OF AS WORKLIFE BALANCE.

DESPITE THE PANDEMIC, DESPITE PROBABLY BEING HOME WITH THEIR HUSBANDS, WOMEN ARE STILL DOING THE LION'S SHARE OF CHILDCARE, HOUSEKEEPING, AND SO WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS THOSE TWO REALITIES ARE HAPPENING: ONE, YES, WORKING FROM HOME MAKES IT MORE POSSIBLE FOR WOMEN TO BALANCE BEING WITH FAMILY AND GETTING THE WORK DONE, BUT BEING AT HOME MEANS THAT IT EXACERBATES SOME OF THE UNDERLYING CULTURAL AND SOCIETAL ISSUES WHERE WOMEN DO MOST OF THE CHILDCARE, WOMEN DO MOST OF THE COOKING, WOMEN DO MOST OF THE HOUSEHOLD WORK.

WHEN WE GO AWAY TO WORK, WE'VE GOT A NATURAL BARRIER TO KEEP US ABLE TO BE FOCUSED ON WORKFORCES BEING FOCUSED ON THOSE CHORES AT HOMEO I THINK WE HAVE TWO PARALLEL REALITIES GOING ON AT ONCE, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO TAKE A LOOK AND TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY, BECAUSE WHEN YOU CONTINUE TO FURTHER CHANGE TO MAKE THIS WORK FOR WOMEN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: CARRIE, YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE.

>> Carrie Lukas: YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING CONVERSATION.

IS ONE WHERE THERE IS NO EASY SOLUTION.

I THINK THAT WITH THE PANDEMIC, IT'S REALLY -- I WISH THEY HAD NOT HAPPENED.

I WISH THE CONVERSATION ABOUT HAVING MORE FLEXIBILITY AT WORK AND THE POTENTIAL TO WORK FROM HOME DID NOT SURROUND THE PANDEMIC.

I HAVE RUN A WOMEN'S ORGANIZATION FOR MORE THAN A DECADE NOW.

WE HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY VIRTUAL IN PART BECAUSE WE WANTED PEOPLE TO HAVE THE FLEX ABILITY TO BE AT HOME AND TO KIND OF SET THEIR OWN HOURS.

IN A LOT OF WAYS IT'S BEEN GREAT.

WE HAVE GIVEN A LOT OF WOMEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WHO MAY NOT HAVE OTHERWISE CHOSEN TO DO SO.

AND IT DOES, WHEN IT COMES AS AN EMPLOYER, IT MEANS I'M NOT FOCUSED ON FACETIME OR HOURS WORKED, IT IS OUTPUT.

HOW MUCH VALUE ARE YOU ADDING?

IT CAN BE VERY POWERFUL FOR WOMEN, BUT I THINK WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE PANDEMIC, THE BIG TRAGEDY WAS THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS' REFUSAL TO OPEN FOR SO LONG.

I'M A MOTHER OF FIVE AND MY KIDS WERE BY PUBLIC SCHOOLS BETWEEN THE AGES OF 6 AND 16.

THEY WERE NOT IN SCHOOL FOR ALMOST A YEAR.

IT WAS DEVASTATING FOR THEM, IT WAS REALLY HARD ON ME, AND A LOT OF MOMS OUT THERE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO CANNOT AFFORD TO OPT OUT OF SCHOOLS.

ALL OF OUR AREA PRIVATE SCHOOLS WERE OPENED.

THOSE WHO COULD GET OUT HAVE LEFT, AND IT WAS REALLY HARD ON THOSE OF US WHO DID NOT HAVE THAT OPTION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I DON'T HEAR YOU, CARRIE LUKAS, ADDRESSING THE EMPLOYER'S PERSPECTIVE AS MUCH AS I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT.

I READ A REPORT FROM A GENTLEMAN IN LONDON WHO WAS SAYING THAT -- THAT WORKLIFE BALANCE, TELE-COMMUNITY, IS LEADING TO PEOPLE WITH FULL-TIME JOBS AND GETTING FULL-TIME SALARIES WORKING PART-TIME.

DO YOU HEAR THIS FROM EMPLOYERS?

>> Carrie Lukas: I THINK MOVING FORWARD, EMPLOYERS WILL HAVE THE OPTION TO DECIDE WHETHER IT MAKES SENSE FOR THEMOU.

POINT OUT SOME JOBS THAT CANNOT GO, YOU CANNOT GO OFF-LINE.

I KNOW IS AN EMPLOYER MYSELF COME A 25 WOMEN, YOU ACTUALLY CAN HAVE GOOD SUCCESS AND I DON'T CARE IF SOMEBODY WORK SIX HOURS VERSUS EIGHT HOURS AS LONG AS THEY ARE GETTING THE JOB DONE.

I DO THINK THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING IN SOME OF THE REPORTS WE HAVE SEEN AROUND THIS, IS THE CHALLENGE OF HELPING PEOPLE TURN OFF.

WE'VE GOT -- IN MY GROUP, A LOT OF WOMEN WORK REALLY HARD AND IT'S NOT UNUSUAL FOR US ALL TO BE, YOU KNOW, CONTINUING TO WORK AT 10:00 AT NIGHT AND IT'S TIME SOMETIMES I HAVE TO SAY, HEY, IT'S TIME FOR US TO GO TO BED.

THERE IS NO REASON -- THIS CAN WAIT FOR TOMORROW.

I THINK TURNING OFF CAN BE A CHALLENGE.

I THINK A LOT OF EMPLOYERS RECOGNIZE THIS TYPE OF FLEXIBILITY CAN BE A WIN-WIN FOR EMPLOYER AND EMPLOYEE, NOT EVERYBODY, BUT A LOT OF US.

IT WILL -- IT'S ENTIRELY GOOD NEWS FOR WOMEN TO HAVE THESE NEW OPTIONS, THOUGH OF COURSE IT DOES COME WITH SOME CHALLENGES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON, HOW DO YOU WORK LOW INCOME WOMEN INTO THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL THAT THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO GET PAST WHICH WILL INCLUDE FUNDING FOR THINGS LIKE CHILD DAY CARE AND THAT SORT OF THING?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: IT DOES MEAN HUGE OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN TO INTEGRATE THEMSELVES INTO MEN'S JOBS.

THOSE JOBS CAN BE DONE OUTDOORS, MANY OF THEM, EVEN THOUGH THE PANDEMIC LOOKS LIKE IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE FOR SOME TIME.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO JOIN THE TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE BILL TO IS THE SOCIAL POLICY BILL WHICH PROBABLY HAS MORE IMPLICATIONS FOR WOMEN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: HOW ARE YOU AS A FEMINIST, AS A STRONG ADVOCATE FOR WOMEN OF COLOR, OF COURSE, BEING ONE, AND A LIFETIME ADVOCATE, AND HOW ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT LOW INCOME WOMEN ARE NOT SQUEEZED OUT OF THIS ONLINE REVOLUTION OF WORKING FROM HOME, WHICH DID NOT EXIST 15, 20 YEARS AGO?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: THE FACT IS, BONNIE, THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SQUEEZED OUT IN LARGER PART THAN OTHER WOMEN BECAUSE THEY WERE IN SO-CALLED ESSENTIAL JOBS WHICH COULD NOT WORK FROM HOME.

SO LOWER INCOME WOMEN HAVE BEEN MOST AT RISK AND HAVE INDEED PAID TO THE LARGEST PRICE FOR THIS PANDEMIC, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE THE ALTERNATIVE THAT OFFICE WORKERS AND OTHER WORKERS COULD HAVE BY WORKING AT HOME.THEY SIMPLY HAD TO BE ON THE JOB.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SAM, I HEARD YOU IN THE BACKGROUND THERE KIND OF ACHING TO RESPOND, I THINK.

YOU ARE A LIFELONG ADVOCATE FOR WOMEN OF ALL COLORS.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE CONGRESSWOMAN THAT WOMEN ARE BEING COMPLETELY LEFT OUT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL?

IF SO, WHAT SHOULD BE DONE?

>> Sam Bennett: I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH THE CONGRESSWOMAN, BECAUSE, AND I THINK SHE NAILED IT, THE WOMEN THAT ARE MOST AT RISK THAT ARE MOST MARGINALIZED IN OUR SOCIETY, IN FACT THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES THAT ARE THE MOST MARGINALIZED ARE WOMEN OF COLOR, PERIOD.

AND OFTEN, THROUGH THIS WHOLE PANDEMIC, THEY HAVE BEEN OVERWHELMINGLY OVERREPRESENTED IN CAREGIVING FOR THOSE THAT ARE SICK, OVERWHELMINGLY REPRESENTED IN GROCERY STORES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THOSE TYPE -- AND THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO STOP.

THEY HAVE HAD TO WORK CONTINUOUSLY TO THIS.

TYPICALLY FOR VERY LOW PAY.

FAR LESS THAN THEIR COUNTERPARTS WHO MIGHT BE WHITE OR IN OTHER PROFESSIONS THEY RECEIVE.

I THINK THAT THIS BILL, WE HAVE THIS HISTORIC OPPORTUNITY, THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, PLEASE CORRECT ME, CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON, IF I MISCHARACTERIZE THIS, BUT THE MOST DRAMATIC BILL WE HAVE SEEN SINCE THE NEW DEAL.

IS LONG OVERDUE.

YES, WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS ALSO LOOK FOR SOCIAL EQUITY WITHIN THAT BILL.

DO NOT HONESTLY -- >> Bonnie Erbe: LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WHAT BESIDES FREE DAYCARE FOR THEIR CHILDREN CAN BE DONE FOR WOMEN WHO HAVE TO WORK IN THE OFFICE OR IN -- WHERE IT IS THAT THEY ARE DOING THEIR WORK THAT THEY CANNOT WORK REMOTELY?

IT WILL NOT WORK FOR THEM.

>> Sam Bennett: WELCOME A WHAT I THINK -- >> Bonnie Erbe: IN CALIFORNIA, FORGET ABOUT REMOTE WORK.

IT'S NOT EVEN PART OF YOUR LIFE.

>> Sam Bennett: EXACTLY.

IN SOMETHING THAT IS VERY UNDER TALKED ABOUT BY WAY OF COMPARISON, IF I AM IN BRITAIN, IF I'M A BUSINESS OWNER IN BRITAIN, IF I'M IN SWEDEN, IF I'M IN NORWAY, GERMANY, IF I'M IN FRANCE, I DON'T HAVE TO HOLD THE COST OF HEALTHCARE FOR MY EMPLOYERS, FOR MY EMPLOYEES.

GUESS WHAT: THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT.

SO WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE IS SOME FINANCIAL OFFSET.

SO IF YOU'RE AN EMPLOYER AND YOU HAVE WOMEN THAT HAVE TO BE -- ALL WORKERS, OBVIOUSLY, BUT WEIGHTED MORE HEAVILY TOWARDS WOMEN, PARTICULARLY WOMEN OF COLOR THAT HAVE TO COME IN, THERE NEEDS TO BE A FINANCIAL OFFSET THAT IS EXPERIENCED BY THE EMPLOYEE THAT THE EMPLOYER IS GIVEN ASSISTANCE WITH BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I THINK THAT IS THE QUICKEST SOLUTION TO THIS, BECAUSE, AGAIN, BUSINESS IN AMERICA THERE'S A COST THAT NO OTHER RICH NATION AND THE WORLD BEARS.

NO OTHER BUSINESS IN THE RICH WORLD BEARS WHICH IS COST OF PROVIDING HEALTHCARE FOR THOSE EMPLOYEES THEY CHOOSE TO DO IT FOR.

>> IT SOUNDS GREAT TO SAY WE WILL GET ALL THIS FREE CHILDCARE.NOBODY CARES ABOUT ANOTHER TRILLION AND SPENDING.

IT'S NOT WORTH TALKING ABOUT THE PRICE TAG.

WHAT I FIND VERY BIZARRE IN THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION IS WE HAVE JUST SEEN THE OTHER FAILURE DURING COVID OF OUR GOVERNMENT RUN K-12 SCHOOLS.

WHY WE WOULD BE SAYING NOW IS THE TIME, LET'S DO THAT FOR OUR ZERO TO FIVE-YEAR-OLDS.

YOU HAD MUCH MORE SUCCESS IN PRIVATE 0 TO 5-YEAR-OLDS CARE, PRESCHOOLS AND CHILD'S DAYCARE, OPENING UP TO SERVE ESSENTIAL WORKERS AND THOSE PEOPLE WHERE YOUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WHICH WE NOW SEE LEARNING GAPS, ESPECIALLY FOR CHILDREN, LOW INCOME CHILDREN, BLACK CHILDREN WHO HAVE LOST A YEAR OF LEARNING BECAUSE OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS WHERE ALL OF MY AREA PRIVATE SCHOOLS OPENED, HAD IN-SERVICE, THOSE KIDS LEARN TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS DID NOT.

WHY DIDN'T THEY?

BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE TO.

THEY WOULD NOT LOSE CUSTOMERS, THEY KNEW THEY DID NOT HAVE TO SERVE OUR KIDS.

PARENTS ABSOLUTELY NO LEVERAGE.

IT'S THE SAME REASON WHY I SEE IN MY PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENTS -- >> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT ARE YOU SAYING YOU WANT?

>> Carrie Lukas: I'M SAYING, IF WE ARE TRYING TO FIND, WE WANT TO SOLVE THE CHILDCARE PROBLEM, THAT'S GIVE MONEY TO PARENTS CAN HELP ESPECIALLY LOW-INCOME PARENTS.

THERE IS NO REASON WHY PEOPLE SHOULD JUST GET -- RICH PEOPLE SHOULD JUST BE GETTING MONEY SO THAT THEY CAN PUT THEIR KIDS IN PUBLIC SCHOOL.

WE SHOULD NOT DOUBLE DOWN ON THE FIELD K-12 SYSTEM.

WE NEED TO -- LITERALLY, YOU HAVE SEEN, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE A K-12, THE K-12 SCHOOLS DID NOT OPEN DURING COVID.

THEY ARE NOT -- WHY WOULD WE THINK THEY WOULD OPEN IN THE NEXT PANDEMIC?

WHY WOULD THEY BE THERE FOR PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE?

I THINK IT'S INCREDIBLY BAFFLING BY WE WOULD DO THAT WHEN WE KNOW THAT THERE WAS A MUCH MORE EXPENSE, SOMETHING LIKE HEAD START WHICH IS SO MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN PRIVATE PRESCHOOL AND FAILS TO PROVIDE SERVICE.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE DOUBLE DOWN ON THE GOVERNMENT MODEL.

WE SHOULD PROVIDE -- [CROSS TALK] PROVIDING TARGETED AID TO HELP PEOPLE WHO NEED CHILDCARE, BUT WE SHOULD NOT DO IT TO EXPAND GOVERNMENT TO DO A TERRIBLE JOB.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

LET ME SAY, BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE -- YES, CERTAINLY PROBLEMS WITH THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, BUT ALSO A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IT IS AMONG THE BEST IN THE WORLD.

SO AS PLAGUED AS IT IS, IT STILL BEATS -- >> Carrie Lukas: STATS SURE DON'T SHOW IT.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE TEST SCORES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IT CERTAINLY BETTER THAN BEING IN PUBLIC SCHOOL IN CENTRAL AMERICA, LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY.

FROM WORKING TO GOVERNING: WOMEN HAVE ADVANCED IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THE U.S. SENATE, STATE LEGISLATURES, AND EVEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE WITH A FIRST FEMALE VICE PRESIDENT.

WHILE THERE IS A RECORD NUMBER OF FEMALE GOVERNORS, ONLY NINE WOMEN HOLD THE TOP SPOT IN STATE GOVERNMENT, AND THAT WAS FIRST ACHIEVED IN 2004.

6 OF THE CURRENT NINE GOVERNORS ARE DEMOCRATS AND THREE ARE REPUBLICANS.

FOUR ROSE TO THEIR POSITIONS BY SUCCESSION, NOT BY ELECTION.

THE MOST RECENT IS KATHY HOGLE WHO BECAME NEW YORK'S FIRST FEMALE GOVERNOR AFTER ANDREW CUOMO RESIGNED OVER CLAIMS OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

36 STATES WILL HOLD GUBERNATORIAL ELECTIONS IN 2022, BOTH PARTIES ARE CONCERNED THE NUMBER OF WOMEN GOVERNORS COULD SLIDE.

STARTING WITH YOU, SAM BENNETT, WHY ARE WE POISED TO LOSE SOME FEMALE GOVERNORS NEXT YEAR?

WHY IS THIS ONE OF THE REMAINING, YOU KNOW, GLASS CEILINGS THAT WOMEN CANNOT AFTER THEIR WAY THROUGH?

>> Sam Bennett: WOMEN DO FAR BETTER, BONNIE, IN WHAT IS TERMED LEGISLATIVE OFFICE.

IN TERMS OF ELECTABILITY.

THE VOTING PUBLIC SEIZED WOMEN AS ABLE TO SORT OF MANAFORT WHEN IT COMES TO LEGISLATIVE ELECTION.

WHEN IT COMES TO EXECUTIVE OFFICE, THAT IS SORT OF THE GLASS CEILING WE ARE BUMPING UP AGAINST HERE.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE THE JOY OF SEEING KAMALA HARRIS IN YORK WHERE I CURRENTLY WORK.

I PERSONALLY WORK WITH KATHY HOGLE WHEN I WAS CEO OF WOMEN'S CAMPAIGN FUND, THRILLED TO SEE HER ASSIGNED TO THIS ROLE.

BUT THERE ARE MANY, MANY CHALLENGES BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT YET GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE VOTERS SEE WOMEN ABLE TO DO THAT EXECUTIVE WORK.

HAVING RUN FOR OFFICE NUMEROUS TIMES MYSELF FOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE FOR MAYOR OF MY HOMETOWN, ALLENTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA, I KNOW WHERE THAT COMES FROM IN THE POLLING THAT WE HAVE DONE.

THE OTHER ISSUE IS, AND THIS IS THE SYSTEMIC ISSUE AT HAND, IS WE STILL NEED FOR MORE WOMEN RUNNING.

THAT'S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM, BECAUSE IF IT'S THAT MUCH HARDER FOR WOMEN TO GET ELECTED, WE NEED THAT MUCH MORE WOMEN RUNNING IN ORDER TO GET UP THE PIPELINE.

AGAIN, THE PROBLEM IS WOMEN STILL SEE POLITICS AS DISTASTEFUL, THEY DO NOT LIKE THE MUD WRESTLING ASPECT OF IT IN THE MUDSLINGING, AND THEY OPT TO BE CHANGEMAKERS IN THE NONPROFIT WORLD VERSUS THE POLITICAL WORLD.

SO THE SYSTEMIC REASON IS WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WOMEN THAT RUN FOR OFFICE, EVEN TODAY.

AND VOTERS STILL HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING WOMEN AS BEING EXECUTIVE CAPABLE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: RINA, WHY ARE THERE SO MANY FEWER REPUBLICAN WOMEN GOVERNORS, HALF THE NUMBER, THE UNDEMOCRATIC WOMEN?

AND OF COURSE, THAT STATISTIC REPEATS ITSELF IF YOU LOOK AT THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE U.S. SENATE.

THERE ARE ALWAYS FEWER REPUBLICAN WOMEN.

WHY IS THAT?

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE UP FOR REELECTION?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: VOTERS ARE TYPICALLY VERY REPUTED OF TWO WOMEN IN THE STATE EXECUTIVES ROLE.

IF THEY FEEL THAT WOMEN PARTICULARLY HAS NOT LED A CHARGE WELL OR IF THERE HAS BEEN A COUPLE MISSTEPS HERE AND THERE, I BELIEVE VOTERS ARE MORE PUNITIVE TWO WOMEN AND THEREFORE MAKES IT TOUGHER FOR REELECTION.

BUT THIS IS, AGAIN, ABOUT SYSTEMIC ISSUES THAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER TIME.

I HAVE SOMEBODY THAT DOES NOT WANT QUOTAS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN OUR STATE LEGISLATURES.

I AM SOMEBODY THAT IS ACTUALLY MORE INCLINED TO SUPPORT REFORMS SUCH AS RING CHOICE VOTING WHICH I BELIEVE IS VERY PALATABLE TO MANY PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE IN UTAH.

IS EXTREMELY BELOVED.

I BELIEVE THERE ARE OVER 20 COUNTIES THAT HAVE ADOPTED THE BECAUSE THEY LOVE IT SO MUCH.

IT'S COST-EFFICIENT AND TAKES THE TOXICITY OUT OF CAMPAIGNING.

IT TAKES AWAY THAT NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN THAT ALWAYS COMES WITH, AGAIN, HAVING TO ATTACK SOMEBODY WHO IS FORESEEN TO BE THE FRONT RUNNER.

BUT WITH THAT, WITH THESE REFORMS, IT BECOMES A VERY SINCERE NEED TO HAVE A ROBUST CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW WOMEN GET TO CERTAIN POSITIONS.

WHAT I VERY MUCH LOVE IS A WOMAN THAT MAKES HER WAY FROM PRIVATE LIFE RIGHT INTO A TOPICS IN THE ROLE BECAUSE SHE SEES IT AS AN ENTREPRENEURIAL FEET, COMES INTO PUBLIC SERVICE AS AN ENTREPRENEUR, SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT WITH MANY REPUBLICAN WOMEN OVER TIME.

MY COMING UP IN REPUBLICAN POLITICS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS A YOUNG PROFESSIONAL, I SAW NIKKI HALEY BE CREATED AS A GREAT EXECUTIVE, MARTINEZ, CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN, NAMES OR I WAS INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH IN THEIR LEADERSHIP STYLE WAS BELOVED.

I THINK YOU CAN BE REALLY STRONG FISCAL CONSERVATIVE AND STATE INDEPENDENT, BE INDEPENDENTLY MINDED.

IN ANY POSITION -- ESTATE GOVERNOR, FOR EXAMPLE, AND BE EFFECTIVE AS AN ENTREPRENEUR.

SO I REALLY HOPE THAT WE WILL START TO DO LESS OF THIS.

WE NEED TO ASK A WOMAN TO RUN AND FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE STRUCTURAL BARRIERS THAT ARE ACTUALLY PALATABLE FOR EVERYONE IN ORDER TO REMOVE THEM AND GET MORE WOMEN RUNNING?

BECAUSE SAM IS RIGHT: WE NEED MORE WOMEN RUNNING.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: BONNIE, THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE GOVERNOR IS A PERSON IN CHARGE AND A LEADERSHIP POSITION.

WE ARE JUST GETTING OUR FIRST WOMAN VICE PRESIDENT.

HOPEFULLY THE PRESIDENT.

WE DON'T SEE WOMEN IN CHARGE IN BUSINESS.

WE DON'T SEE WOMEN IN CHARGE OF ANYTHING.

SO WHY SHOULD WE THINK THAT THEY SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF AN ENTIRE STATE?

THIS IS ENDEMIC OF -- IN OUR SYSTEM WHERE WOMEN HAVE YET TO RISE TO WHERE THEY ARE SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD TO BE LEADERS AND SHOULD IN FACT BE ELECTED TO THE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD, JUST AS WE HAVE ELECTED JUST BECAUSE SHE WAS ON THE TICKET WHO, WITH A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, BUT WE FINALLY ELECTED A VICE PRESIDENT WHO COULD BE THE FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: NOW, CONGRESSWOMAN, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE SITUATION ON EACH OF THESE NINE FEMALE GOVERNORS?

I THINK SOME OF THEM ARE TERM LIMITED OUT.

WHAT ARE DEMOCRATS DOING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE NEVER DOES NOT DROP FROM NINE -- YOU KNOW, WE DON'T GO BACKWARDS TO A LEVEL THAT WE ACTUALLY FIRST MET IN 2004?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: FALL BY SECESSION INCLUDING BY THE PRESIDENT GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

SO WOMEN HAVE AN OBLIGATION FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SUCCEEDED TO THE POLLS TO MAKE SURE THEY REMAIN IN THE POLLS.

THAT IS GOING TO BE OUR CHALLENGE IN THE NEXT ELECTION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DEMOCRATS HAVE A HUGE CHALLENGE IN THE NEXT ELECTION, AND THEY HAVE A HISTORY WORKING AGAINST THEM COMPLETELY.

THE PARTY THAT COMES IN AND TAKES OVER THE PRESIDENCY LOSES SEATS IN THE NEXT -- IN THE HOUSE.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: EXCEPT THAT THESE WOMEN ARE ALREADY IN OFFICE, UNLIKE THE REST OF US.

AND THIS MAY HELP THEM TO STAY IN OFFICE BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RECORD AND THAT THEY WILL BE MAKING HISTORY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS, PLEASE, CARRIE.

>> Carrie Lukas: YEAH.

IS IMPORTANT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SOMETIMES I THINK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN VOTERS OR WOMEN BEING ELECTED.

WE TALK ABOUT VOTERS.

REMEMBER THAT WOMEN CAST MORE THAN HALF OF THE VOTES.

OF ITS PEOPLE WHO HAVE INTEGRATED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT WOMEN ARE CAPABLE OF, IT'S WOMEN THEMSELVES WERE HOLDING OTHER WOMEN BACK.

MOST OF WHAT I SEE, I LOOK AT THE POLITICAL WORLD TODAY.

WHY WOULD ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN MOST OF THIS?

I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN LOOK AT THIS AND TAKE A TERRIBLE.

ESPECIALLY AS A REPUBLICAN WOMAN, MOST OF THE SUPPORT SYSTEMS THAT YOU WILL NOT GET IN NOBODY ON THE TODAY SHOW AND ALL OF THESE KIND OF -- CLAN MAGAZINE AND ALL THESE PLACES THAT SEE SUCH HIGH PLACES AND GLORIFY THE LEFT AND CELEBRATE THEM ARE GOING TO BE THE FIRST TO TRASH YOU ENTER YOU DOWN.

I THINK THAT'S A REAL BARRIER FOR CONSERVATIVE WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT TO STICK THEIR HEAD OUT BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAINLY NO FEMINIST GROUP -- THAT WILL SO-CALLED FEMINIST GROUP LEVEL CAP THERE, THE PROGRESSIVE MACHINE IS GOING TO TRY TO TEAR THEM DOWN.

I DON'T KNOW THIS AND I ALSO DON'T CARE, I DON'T FIXATE ON THE IDEA.

I WANT WOMEN TO BE OUT THERE BUT WE NEED GOOD PEOPLE TO RUN.

I DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE A MALE OR FEMALE OR SOMETHING IN BETWEEN, WHATEVER.

I WANT GOOD PEOPLE TO BE OUT THERE RUNNING AND I'M NOT FOCUSED ON JUST HAVING GIRL POWER, BECAUSE FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING GIRLS UP THERE, IT'S ALL ABOUT GETTING GOOD WOMEN WERE GOOD PEOPLE IN OFFICE TO DO THE BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY AND OUR STATES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THANK YOU FOR THAT, CARRIE LUKAS.

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