Funding for To The Contrary provided by: This week on To The Contrary: First, why women live longer than men.

Then the surprising reason travel for abortions is dropping.

Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé.

Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news and social trend from a variety of perspectives.

Up first: changing genetic lifespans.

New studies show females live longer than men, not just among humans, but in most mammal species.

Genetics play a role as females have two X chromosomes that may protect against mutations.

Mating behaviors also matter, as males often take more risks or use more energy competing for mates.

In humans, lifestyle adds to the gap.

Men smoke, drink and avoid doctors more often.

Scientists say men could live longer by adopting healthier habits, such as regular checkups and better diet and exercise.

Joining me this week are former Marylan Democratic Congresswoman Donna Edwards, Republican strategist Ann Stone, New Amsterdam News's Sam Bennet and podcast host April Chapman.

What can men learn from women about living longer, Donna Edwards?

Well, how about caregiving?

That caregiving is a major contributor to women living longer, and so maybe men can adopt some of those strategies.

And the recent studies show that not only caregiving is a critical role, but social connections, where women are much higher, of course, is instrumental.

And believe it or not, eating your breakfast first thing in the mornin seems to be a critical factor.

So if men just started eating their breakfast first thing in the morning, that might help.

As you know, I'm a female chauvinist, and frankly, there are a lot of things they can do to maybe live a little longer but well always outlive them.

There are many reasons we'll go into in a minute.

I mean, I don't know if the crisis is necessarily biological.

I'd like to have a conversation, though, about why, masculinit seems to be broken these days, but we can talk about that later.

All right, now, let's start with, why we do think that the primary reason why, women outlive men, which has been the case for a long, long time, although the gap does close and open.

Right.

Well I'd like to start by saying that I don't believe that the crisis is necessarily biology.

I'm looking at what I see in modern society as broken masculinity.

It's interesting that we're discussing masculinity and patriarch and how this whole conversation is centered around it, and often is framed as toxic.

Ye we're sitting on the internet, we're using computers, you have technology, and we're enjoying all of the modern comforts that men have built.

And oftentimes we do that lacking gratitude.

So to answer the question, men are wired to protect, provide, and sacrifice everything for the good of others in a way that's different than women.

But if you're—if you're— no, let me finish.

If what you're saying is accurate, then men should be outliving women, because the gender right now that is more caregiving, which is clearly women, is living longer.

So why isn't that working out with men and women?

I'm arguing that they're shouldering the burdens of the world, burdens that even our female physiology cannot imagine taking on.

And our modern culture wants to kill that.

We've got women destroyin the lives of men, with 80% of us filing for divorces, taking away the very thing that give men purpose, which is their families their children, their position in the world to prioritize what they've built.

And when you take that away, we're doing all kinds of things that we can have conversations about, are we shocke that men are not living longer?

When our society begin to restore faith and purpose in just being a man, as opposed to demonizing masculinity, we might see more favorabl uptick in their health outcomes.

I just don't think this ha anything to do with masculinity.

It has to do with consuming more alcohol, eating poorly, not going to the doctor.

I mean, these are all like really contributing factors to the disparity between men's longevity and women's longevity and perhaps if men focused o themselves in that kind of way, they could actually close that gap.

And Donna— But genetically, isn't it genetically pumped into them, in the sense?

I have a nephew who has a crunched pelvis because he grew up riding motorcycles and about 5 or 10 years ago, he was speeding around an exit ramp, and he went off the ramp and onto the mountain that he was trying to get around.

And now he can barely move around anymore.

But it's more based— Women dont normally do that kind of stuff But it's more basic than that.

Donn touched on a lot of the points, but it goes even deeper than that.

Women are the stronger part of the species.

We're built differently with the double X chromosome versus their XY.

They refer to the Y chromosome as a broken chromosome for a reason.

Almost all inherited genetic disorders are male.

There are very few women for example, that have many of the common genetic disorders.

It comes through that XY chromosome.

So they're destined to be weaker on many fronts.

Add to it the cultural things where they do the risky behavior to impress us.

And because that's part of who they are and they're destined for problems.

But it even goes to things like tear ducts.

The fact that women can cry is one of the reasons we live longer.

In fact, I remember givin a seminar to the men once, and I said, you know what's a weakness of women?

Oh, they cry.

I said well, actually, because we can cry is one of the reasons you die.

And this guy went, “What?

!” I said our tear ducts work better than yours.

They can't cry as easily as we do.

And that's part of one of the thing that actually extends our life.

Believe it or not.

Well, we have several things— Are we saying men are broken?

Men are broken because they don't cry?

No, no, no.

Okay.

But one of the things this study also found is that women may have better genes, quote unquote, for longevity.

Yes.

Because they have double X. Yes.

And so that's not a weakness.

That's a strength.

Absolutely.

It absolutely is, that—that's what I'm saying.

The XY allows inherited disorders to come through the male.

And that' why men have many more of them.

Like hemophilia.

There are virtually no female hemophiliacs.

They're almost all male.

I'm telling you, it's a genetic thing.

And I just point out the tear ducts as one other contributing factor.

We can release stress more easily than men can.

Culturally, they've had it suppressed, but also physiologically, it's easier for us.

There's a whole bunch of things that could take an entire hour to go over.

Yeah, if we just look at thi from a straight up evolutionary standpoint, to have the gender that is able to have offspring to perpetuate the species, it makes sense it would need to be the stronger species.

But that being said to your question, Bonnie, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

There are simple— We have so many studies now about longevity, and the recent ones are really stressing social connectivity and simple life habits, right?

When do you eat your breakfast, believe it or not, is one of the leading ones they've discovered in some of these long term studies they've done.

So I think that our belove husbands and nephews and sons, just adopting some different practices could make a big difference in their lives and their longevity.

The government would actually bring me in after they'd have sexual harassment training to get me in there, to get men and women talking to each other again.

And by the time I would g through a whole host of things that—differences between men and women and point out to the women that we're always going to outlive them.

By the end of it, everybody was laughing, joking, and the women are going, oh, you poor guys.

We didn't realize, it's so sad.

I'd just like to say that men are outworking and outperforming women hand over fist, and they are doing things that we don't want to do.

They are fighting wars, digging ditches— Right.

—creating the creature comforts that we get to enjoy.

And it concerns me that the framing of this discussion is if we are somehow better than them, as opposed to perhaps our creator created us different so that we would all have our own unique reasons of inherent value, that one's not better than the other, but it is fundamentally different to accomplish the task that we were designed to complete.

Let me step back from this for a moment and just say, I don't think we're talking about who's better.

It's not a competition here.

There just—there's a ne medically back study that shows why women live longer than men.

That may be a curse in disguise.

Who knows?

I'm just saying.

We're not saying anyone's better.

We're just saying there's this difference.

Yeah, and it does give us— It does give us a reason to think about policies differently.

If you have women who are living to age 81, we need to think about what that means, is we have women who are caregivers, you know, up through, you know, their retirement years.

We need to think about the policies that we need, that contribute to that.

And then looking at the combination of biology and genetics.

And I would not argue that women don't work hard.

Women, you know, bear children, they work in and outside the home, they do lots of things that actually contribute to the broader community.

And so, as Bonnie said this is not about a competition.

It's about identifyin empirical facts about why it is that wome have greater longevity than men, and then creating the kind of policies that really help to support either men's increased longevity, or what happens with wome toward the end of their lives.

Yeah, the point I hope we're making, and I think we do agree— we're different; doesn't make one better than the other.

But actually, the more you stud all this, you're going to find, the more men and women work together in partnership.

We actually were made to work together in partnership and that makes us both stronger.

But men could adapt a lot of our cultural habits that probably would make them live a little bit longer.

Wed still outlive them, though.

And simple thing like just going to the doctor.

There's a lot of research that shows that men are long delayed compared to women in going to doctors.

So, you know, PSA campaigns about get to your doctor, eat your breakfast and make friends you know, connect with people.

Those simple, basic things could have, to Donna's point, a discernible empirical impact in the longevity of men.

So true.

And I do remember, I do remember doing a story years ago about the fact that women were responsible— I don't know that these data are current, but I'm just saying years ago, it was certainly true.

Wome made 80% of medical appointments for the whole family, 80%.

I was just about to say that.

In yesteryear, the wife was responsible for the health, the least— the main responsibility of setting all o the appointments for the family, reminding everyone to take their supplements and their vitamins.

And they were doing that.

But now when you have 80% of of divorces being filed by women, and men no longer have their one flesh partners well into their older age, the dynamics of what that's going to look like culturally is going to be different.

And that's a discussion, by the way, we need to have on this show, moving out.

Why does everybody think it's such a great advantage to outlive your gender or outlive the other gender, or outlive, you know, some races live longer than others.

In some ways, it's really hard being 90 without a mate and not in such great physical shape.

So I think there are benefits and detriments to both sides.

Let us know what you think.

Please follow me on X @BonnieErbe.

From longevity to reproductive health trends.

New data from the Guttmacher Institute show that for the first time since Roe v Wade was overturned, fewer women are traveling out of state for abortions.

This is largely du to the rising use of telehealth appointments and abortion pills under so-called shield laws that protect providers in restrictive states.

But even those resources could be restricted in the future, as ongoing legal challenges and funding shortfalls continue to threaten access.

So Ann Stone, my first question on this to you.

I suppose with the the Trump administration running the country, we can expect to see more cut offs of access to, you know, next is, is, you know, medication abortions that you can get by taking a pill.

Well, the good news i they did drop all the lawsuits that DOJ had against abortion providers and on abortion pill and all that.

So that's being left alone pretty much right now.

However, there is a review.

They forced HHS to do a review of the current abortion pill.

I don't think anything is going to come of it.

Plus, we had a new abortion pill just approved, which the right to life folks in, in, the GOP are absolutely going nuts over.

Theyre very angry that it got approved.

But since upwards of two thirds of abortions now are through— are medication abortions, they don't have to go to clinics anymore.

So it's really made it impossible for the right to life folks to stop abortion.

And this is something I've tol them for a long time.

You know, find other ways to reach peopl if you want to change their mind on abortion.

Find other ways to reach than the way you've been going because it's not going to work.

What about these new laws that are coming along?

You mentioned one of them, the so-called shield laws that are supposed to protect access to onlin chemicals, chemical abortions, but that the smaller and smaller states are now overturning that making it not possibl in the more conservative states.

Well, there's 18 states where it's secure, plus the District of Columbia.

In the other states, like for example Texas sued a doctor in New York for sending pills into Texas.

And that case blew up in their— blew up in their face.

Its not going to happen.

New York's not going to allow it to be enforced.

And I think you're going to find case law on this is going to be built where they can't stop it.

They cannot— If the pill is legitimate, they're not gonna be able to stop it.

They even tried to revive some of the old laws making it, you know if it's going through the mail like they had back in the turn of the century, we'll try to stop it.

It's not going to work.

There is a very huge safety concern with providing women, that we claim that we care about, access to this form of health care.

The problem is there' a huge void of accountability.

We've got this technology and I understand it.

But the mail order abortions to me is not women's health when you have women that oftentimes are passing the remains of their babies alone, they are hemorrhaging.

There are some serious dangers associated with this pill because it's not done under doctor's care or supervision.

Now, the shield laws, they are protecting doctors, but they're not protecting women.

Real care requires oversight.

If women are being harmed by the abortion pill passing, like I said, the remains of their own offspring alone.

That is not a very pleasant experience.

We can't say that we want to protect women and save women, yet we're giving them access to a form of health care void of accountability.

That is a level of danger that I don't think any of us are prepared to have a conversation about, because we simply just want to give them access to— Donna, Donna, I want to go to you, but let me just start out by saying I'm pretty sure I'm right on this, that the medical community has said that abortion, having an abortion, especially an early term abortion, is safer than having a baby for women.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, what I was going to say, Bonnie, is just this: that merely saying that access to medication abortion is endangering women and harming their lives does not bear truth to the reality of the safety and efficacy that's been found over and over again with these medication abortions.

And so, merely saying it is true is not the reality.

These are incredibly safe.

Women having access to telemedicine with a health care provider we provide lots of other kinds of services via telemedicine that are safe as well.

And so I agree with Ann, that states are going to try to stop this.

I just don't think it's really possible.

And I guess that's why the one avenue that's being pursued by this administration is to try to go the regulatory avenue.

But no panel of physicians is going to undercut what has been years of research into the safety of these medications.

And that's why they're having a— thats why theyre having a review, that is why they're having a review.

But, again, the cases are very, very scarce where there's been a problem.

Right.

But even you said earlier Ann, and I was surprised by that.

And I know that you're pro-choice, bu only 20 states, I guess it is, have these shield laws, meaning 30— Yeah.

30 don't.

So— We're working on it.

It's—it's— it's still, I think— it's disappointing, though, to sit—like we're all women here, right?

We were all once a baby.

To hear our— It sounds like there's just such a bloodthirst for the rebellio to promote a culture of death.

Oh my goodness.

Where we are killing, it is, is it— It's a baby.

It's alive.

They are.

April, you speak things as though theyre true.

And I think there's, you know, a wide opinion— My, my, my world view affirms the life, the sanctity of life in the womb, a life that you were at one point, at one point of gestation.

You were a small, tiny life but you were still significant.

That world view is a very narrow view that's not held by the vast majority of the American people.

This is personal for me, because abortion devastates black communities.

Now, I know black communities need to take responsibility for our own demise.

But does that mean that you need to be an ally to help us finish the job?

I mean, are we at least willing to admit— unless you're willing to admit that you're okay with racially targeting black women with these pills to allow us to— I'm so sorry, April.

I'm the president of the nation's most influential, oldest continuously published Black newspaper, Amsterdam News, in New York City.

If you promote—if you are acively promoting and targeting black women— Let me finish— One at a time, please.

—progeny in the womb, you're part of the problem.

Respectfully, let me finish.

I will.

To Donna's point, nothing you're saying is true.

That is not true.

The Amsterdam News stands firmly, stands firmly behind black women's rights.

April, you have to let other people finish their comments.

You're the science people.

Science disagrees.

I'm sorry, Im not disagreeing with you, Im pointing out that what you're saying is misinformation.

I work for one of the highest reputation black country— black newspapers in the country.

We hold our reputation very high on fact checking and actual news instead of misinformation.

With all due respect, April, what you're saying is misinformation and it is not true.

It is not.

It's propaganda to tell black women that it's okay for them to kill their babies because it's health care.

Youre actually saying that black women, as black women, that we don't have agency to control our own bodies.

And that is really that's actually more disturbing— —not your body.

Thats a different body.

That's more disturbing— Wait, wait.

Hold on a second.

No.

If you're all talking at the same time, nobody can hear any of you— And I understand that.

So, respectfully, I will concede the point and move the conversation over.

But I am not pushing propaganda.

Science disagrees with your position.

April, actually, science is not as cut and dry as you're saying.

Oh, it is.

But we don't have— Wait.

As she just asked, don't speak over.

The point is, we'd spend hours.

I've been working on this issue for over 40 years.

Wed spend hours discussing this.

There's a lot more to it than we're even getting into here.

But that's why I said earlier.

Better to try new ways to get people to not get pregnant in the first place.

Unintended pregnancy is the reason for abortion, and to find ways to support them if they want to carry the child.

So the point is, the discussion that we're having here, though, is on the efficacy of abortion pills and why now people aren't traveling out of state and they aren't, because we've progressed to where it is, mainly medication abortion.

That's why, again, April, if you want to stop abortion in the Black community or elsewhere, your tactics have to change.

That's all.

And I just wanted to point out from my standpoint again, as president of Amsterdam News the nation's most influential, oldest continuously publishe black newspaper has always stood with a black woman publisher who's owned the newspaper with her family for over 75 years.

We stand with a woman's righ to choose, Black or otherwise, because it is the best— putting the health of the mother first is always what is the most important thing.

Is there anybody who thinks that somebody other than the woman, or if you want to add her doctor, should be a part of this decision?

I'm just curious.

I'm just about protecting all lives from age of gestation all the way to end of life.

And I just don't agree wit turning telehealth into teledeat We can't claim to champio women's rights and then promote mail order abortions that harm both the body and the soul.

No one talks about the lack of aftercare and physician attention that's given to these women who have heard their testimonies and stories, where they've been misrepresented and told that, oh, it's going to be simple.

It's just a little cramping.

And this is a traumatic medical event that these women are experiencing alone.

Well, I guess I would like to se that borne out by the evidence.

And I haven't see any evidentiary base other than anecdotal examples.

And so what we do know is that these medically provided abortions are safe, that the drugs that are used are safe.

And that women's experience with them is safe as well.

And so I can only go by the evidence, and I believe in the ability of women to make that decision for themselves.

It's not my decision for some other woman.

It's not somebody other than a doctor in consultation with a woman's decision.

And so I respect the agency of women to make those decisions for themselves with the safety of the drugs that are available on the market now.

And the sad truth is that we'd make much more progress if the two sides would sit down and find common ground solution that make abortion unnecessary and/or that support women both before pregnancy and after pregnancy, even if it's after terminating a pregnancy.

So much is spent going at each other and not enough time talking to each other and really trying to find— because there's a lot of common ground solution that are available out there if people will talk to each other.

Agreed.

Can I tell you what George Harrison told me?

Believe it or not, George Harrison reached out— The Beatle reached out to me, after one of my speeches in Florida, and he said, what you have to do is tell people that the body is the temple for the soul, and therefore the human can't be complete until the soul, until the temple is complete for the soul to come in.

And I appreciate—I told hi I appreciated his observation, but that was a little esoteric to get into on TV.

But so that's why I've always been very comfortable, I told him.

I said I actually believed exactly as he did.

Yeah, we just disagree.

We just want—we want abortion to be safe and rare.

It's what we all want.

All right.

That's it for this edition of To The Contrary.

Please keep the conversation going on our social media platforms: Instagram, Facebook, X and TikTok.

Reach out to us @tothecontrary, visit our website.

The address is on the screen and whether you agree or think to the contrary, see you next time.

Funding for To The Contrary provided by: You're watching PBS.