AND AND AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF >> CHINA, THEY'RE GOING TO START PRODUCING SOLAR PAN HE HAS.

THEY'RE GOING TO START PRODUCING THEM.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE WE'RE PUTTING A TARIFF ON THEM, BUT THEY'LL GO TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, BECAUSE THE REST OF THE WORLD GETS IT.

THEY GET THAT, WILD HUMANS DON'T CAUSE CLIMATE CHANGE, OUR ACTIVITIES ARE SO EXACERBATING A NATIONAL TREND THAT MOTHER NATURE CAN'T ABSORB IT ANYMORE.

>> HELLO, AND WELCOME TO PBS' TO THE AREA.

I'M BORN I ERBAY.

TODAY WE'RE HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR AND ADMINISTRATOR.

EPA UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH, MS. CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN.

MS. WHITMAN NOW HAS AN ENVIRONMENTAL AND ENERGY CONSULTING FIRM.

WELCOME, GOVERNOR WHITMAN.

HOW ARE YOU IF >> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> SO LET'S GET RIGHT DOWN TO IT THE EPA, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?

>> WELL, SCOTT PRUITT WAS A DISASTER FOR THE AGENCY, NOT SO MUCH FOR THE POLICY, ALTHOUGH THAT'S REALLY BAD, BUT THAT'S THE PRESIDENT'S DETERMINATION.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE UNDER ANDREW WHEELER.

BUT IT WAS MORE HIS ETHICAL TONE DEAFNESS THAT REALLY -- AND THE WAY OF OPERATING.

HE HAD A VERY CLOSED SHOP.

HE DIDN'T LET PEOPLE UP.

HE HAD THAT SECRET PHONE BOOTH THAT WAS BUILT, FOR WHAT REASON, I CAN'T IMAGINE.

AND IT JUST CREATED AN ATMOSPHERE OF DISTRUST.

PEOPLE WERE NERVOUS.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BRING THINGS UP, BECAUSE HE'D CHOP THEIR HEADS OFF, AND HE ONLY STOPPED TO A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE.

SO MORALE WAS REALLY BAD IN THE AGENCY.

AND IT WAS BECOME A LAUGHING STOCK BECAUSE OF ALL THE ETHICAL ISSUES.

AND SOME OF THEM WERE SO BIZARRE , SENDING THEM OUT TO GET SPECIAL KIND OF BODY LOTION FOR HIM, USING HIS DETAIL, HIS PROTECTIVE DETAIL AND GETTING -- SENDING SOMETHING FROM THE AGENCY OUT TO GET A MATTRESS FROM TRUMP HOTEL.

THEY WERE JUST KIND OF BIZARRE THINGS THAT TO ME I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW HE STAYED THAT LONG, BECAUSE HE WAS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO THE ADMINISTRATION, MUCH LESS THE AGENCY.

FOR THE ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION.

HE WAS CERTAINLY CARRYING OUT THE PRESIDENT'S POLICIES AND THAT'S WHY I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO CHANGER YOU SHOULD WHEELER.

MORALE WILL GET BETTER.

>> MORALE WILL GET BETTER?

>> OH, YES.

>> ALTHOUGH HE LAID OFF A LOT OF PEOPLE, TOO.

RIGHT?

HE DIDN'T FILL POSITIONS?

>> RIGHT.

>> HE LAID PEOPLE OFF.

>> AND THAT'S GOING TO BE THE SAME, BUT MORALE WITHIN THE AGENCY AS FAR AS AN ADMINISTRATOR WHO WILL TALK TO THEM, WHO AT LEAST RECOGNIZES THAT THEY'RE FROM AND THEY HAVE SOME EXPERTISE.

ANDREW WHEELER WILL.

HE'S GOING TO BE SENSITIVE TO THE FACT THAT HE HAS INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE AND DOESN'T WANT TO LOSE ALL OF IT.

CLEARLY HE COMES FROM A BACKGROUND OF HEAVY COAL INDUSTRY.

HE'S PART OF THE PROGRAM TO ROLL BACK SOME OF THE PROTECTIONS THAT WE'VE ENJOYED TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE HEALTHY LIFESTYLES AND CAN BREATHE THE AIR AND DRINK THE WATER.

HE'S GOING TO BE MUCH MORE LENIENT THAN I PERSONALLY WOULD LIKE HIM TO BE AND HE'S GOING TO ROLL BACK MORE REGULATE * LAYINGS.

HE'S HE GOING TO DO A BETTER JOB OF THAT THAN SCOTT PRUITT DID, BECAUSE SCOTT PRUITT WAS I THINK GRAND STANDING A LOT AND HE'D MAKE SOME GRAND PRONOUNCE MINTS THAT HE WAS ROLLING SOMETHING BACK, AND YOU CAN'T GET UP ONE MORNING AND DECIDE, OH, IT'S OKAY TO HAVE LEAD IN YOUR WATER.

WE'RE GOING TO GET RID OF THAT REGULATION.

YOU HAVE TO COME BACK AND SAY, WELL, THE STANDARD AT WHICH THEY SAID IT WAS WRONG, TOO HIGH, TOO LOW, WHATEVER, THIS IS WHERE IT SHOULD GO AND HERE IS THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT.

SO THERE'S A PROCESS.

SO A LOT OF WHAT SCOTT PRUITT DID WON'T STAND THE TEST OF TIME WHEN ANDREW WHEELER -- >> WHAT WILL IT -- WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO IT?

IT WILL BE THROWN OUT?

IT WILL BE CHALLENGED IN COURTS?

>> CHALLENGED AND THROWN OUT IN COURSE, BECAUSE THE PROCESS WASN'T RIGHT, WHEREAS ANDREW WHEELER IS GOING TO DO IT RIGHT.

IT STILL WILL GET CHALLENGED, BECAUSE THE ENVIRONMENTS WILL CHALLENGE IT.

AT LEAST HE WILL HAVE THE STEPS IN PLACE AND BE ABLE TO JUSTIFY, IN HIS MIND, WHY THE ROLL BACK OCCURRED.

>> WHEN YOU SEE WHAT'S BEING DONE TO ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS UNDER THIS ADMINISTRATION, WHAT HURTS YOU MOST?

WHAT ACT WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH AND CHAMPIONED THAT YOU SEE -- >> ANY OF THEM.

CLEAN AIR, CLEAN WATER.

THE YESSED THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BRING BACK COAL IF YOU ALLOW THE COAL PRODUCTION FACILITIES TO DUMP THEIR TAILINGS NEXT TO WATER SOURCES, BECAUSE IT'S MORE CONVENIENT, THAT'S GOING TO BRING BACK COAL IS JUST WRONG.

WHAT IT WILL DO, IT CAN WILL DO IS POISON THE PEOPLE DOWNSTREAM, BECAUSE COAL TAILINGS HAVE LEAD.

THEY HAVE ARSENIC.

NONE OF THEM ARE DAD FOR YOUR BLOOD.

AND WE'VE ^ SEEN WHEN THE SLURRY PITS BREECH AND GET DOWN TO THE WATER, IT SEEPS DOWN IN.

COAL IS DYING A SLOW DEATH BECAUSE OF THE LOW COST OF NATURAL GAS.

AND THEN WE EVER THE ADMINISTRATION ALSO NOW PUSHING FOR THE SAUDIS TO RELEASE MORE OIL AND GAS.

I MEAN, IT'S COUNTER SCREENING SOLEMNLIES AND PROMOTING MORE VEIL GASES DEVELOPMENT.

THOSE ARE ALL UNDERMINING COAL ULTIMATELY.

>> AND TRAGIC FOR THE GAS.

RIGHT?

>> TRACKING FOR THE GAS.

IT'S ALL KIND OF COUNTER PRODUCTIVE, BUT IT GOES TO THE BASE AND THAT'S WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS INDICATED HE CARES ABOUT.

IT'S NOT SO MUCH BASED ON IS THIS POLICY THE RIGHT WAY TO HELP MY BASE?

IT'S JUST THE BASE LIKES THE SOUND.

THE BASE LIKES TO HEAR HIM BEING SONG.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A POINT WHERE THE BASE WILL GET SICK OF DRINKING POLLUTED WATER AND BREATHING POLLUTED AIR?

>> OH, YES.

I MEAN, BUT THAT'S GOING TO TAKE THEM A WHILE, WHERE YOU'LL SEE IT MORE IS WITH THE TRADE WARS AND WHAT IS A ALREADY HAPPENED TO SAY THE PRICE OF SOYBEANS.

FARMERS ARE ALREADY VERY WORRIED THEY'RE SEEK A REAL DEVELOP IN THE PRICE OF A LOT OF COMMODIT IES BECAUSE WE SELL SO MUCH TO CHINA, AND THAT MEANS THAT THEY'RE NOT NOW BUYING FORWARD ON GRAIN STOCKS AND THINGS FOR PLANTING FOR THE NEXT HARVEST.

AND OF COURSE, THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING AND THEY MAY NOT TALK ABOUT IT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKING IT AWAY.

SO ANY TIME YOU HAVE TO RELY ON WHAT MOTHER NATURE FOR YOUR LIVELIHOOD, IT'S TOUCH AND GO ALL THE TIME, AND THEN WHEN YOU ADD THIS OTHER PART OF IT WHERE YOU'RE STARTING TO SEE A TRADE WAR WHERE IT'S GOING TO MAKE YOUR PRODUCT LISA ATTRACTIVE TO YOUR MAIN EXPORT, ITS HE'S HURTING AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK PEOPLE START TO SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, WE WANTED CHANGES.

WE WANTED TO DO AWAY WITH REGULATION.

WE AGREE WE'VE GOT TO GET BETTER TRADE DEALS, BUT THIS IS WHAT WHAT WE EXPECTED AS THE OUTCOME.

>> LET'S GO THROUGH A COUPLE OF THE OBAMA ERA REGULATIONS THAT WERE PUT FORTH UNDER THE EPA.

CLEAN POWER ACT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> HOW HAS THAT HELPED AMERICANS AND WHAT UNDER THE PRUITT/ WHEELER EPA DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO IT?

>> WELL, WHAT IT DID IS SET STANDARDS ON THINGS LIKE MERCURY , AS WELL AS CARBON.

SOMETHING WE'VE NEVER HAD A STANDARD FOR.

GEORGE W. BUSH, WE SENT A BILL UP THE HILL AND CO2 NITROGEN OXIDE AND MERCURY, AND THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOUGHT US BECAUSE IT WASN'T PERFECT.

THAT'S WHAT YOU DO.

YOU SEND A BILL TO THE HILL AND THEN THEY WORK ON IT.

YOU'VE GIVEN THE PARAMETERS WHERE YOU WANT TO GO AND THEN THEY WORK ON IT.

WE COOPERATE EVEN GET A HEARING.

SO THERE IS NO STANDARD IN THIS COUNTRY FOR MERCURY, YET WE KNOW IT'S HIGHLY PA LUTING, PARTICULARLY IN THE AREAS CLOSEST TO THE ASSOCIATION SO THIS BILL, I MEAN, THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER WOULD SIGNIFICANTLY ROLL THAT BACK.

ALL THESE THINGS TAKE TIME TO IMPLEMENT.

IT'S BEEN TIED UP IN COURT, SO NOTHING MUCH HAS HAPPENED WITH IT TO DATE.

>> THE CORPORATIONS WERE CHALLENGING THE OBAMA RULE, BUT YOU'RE SAYING NOW -- >> WELL, SOME OF THE CORPORATIONS WERE CHALLENGING IT THERE ARE OTHER CORPORATIONS THAT ARE ACTUALLY GOOD ACTORS.

NOW THOSE THAT ARE CHALLENGE AND GO EVEN SOME OF THOSE THAT WERE READY TO GO FORWARD ARE SLOWING DOWN, BECAUSE THEY'RE SAYING, WAIT A MINUTE, WE DON'T WANTING TO OUT ON A LIMB ON THIS, SPEND A LOT OF MONEY, BECAUSE IT'S NOT REALLY GOING TO PROBABLY HELP OUR QUARTERLY EARNINGS REPORTS IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE TO.

OR IF THE STANDARD IS SUDDENLY GOING TO CHANGE.

THAT'S WHAT WAS SO FRUSTRATING ABOUT WHAT HE DID WITH THE TAIL PIPE EMISSIONS.

THE CAR COMPANIES, THE MANUFACTURERS HAD ALL PREPARED FOR THIS.

THEY WERE MOVING FORWARD ON THIS IN FACT, A LOT -- >> TO LESS POLLUTANTS?

>> TO LESS.

AND THEN YOU EVER THE UTILITIES, THE ENERGY UTILITIES, MANY OF WHOM WERE SAYING, YEAH, LET'S GET ELECTRIC VEHICLES, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THEY SAW THEIR POTENTIAL GROWTH AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU SAY WE'RE GOING TO ROLL THAT BACK.

THE CAR COMPANIES ARE SAYING, OKAY, NOW WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO?

YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE A BIG CAPITAL INVESTMENT THAT'S GOING TO TAKE A WHILE TO AMORTIZE IF THE STANDARD IS GOING TO CHANGE AGAIN ON YOU ALL OF A SUDDEN.

AND WE'RE MOVING THAT WAY AND WE KNOW BETWEEN TWO AND 300,000 PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DIE EVERY YEAR FROM DIRTY AIR AND WATER RELATED CAUSES, FROM LUNG CANCER AND EMPHYSEMA, ASTHMA, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, NOT TO MENTION WHAT IT DOES TO KIDS WHEN THEY MISS SCHOOL DAYS.

SINGLE LARGEST CAUSE OF MISSED SCHOOL DAYS.

WE CAN -- AND TAIL PIPES FROM VEHICLES IS A HUGE, HUGE PART OF THAT.

AND WE WERE MOVING TOWARD IMPROVING THAT AND NOW WE'RE NOT AND THAT'S RAILROAD VERY TROUBLING.

>> WELL, BUT HOW DO THE CORPORATION, YOU BELIEVE, THE CAR COMPANIES, THE CAR MANUFACTURERS, FOR EXAMPLE, DO THEY LOOK AT THIS ATTEMPTED DISMANTLING, AS THEY USED TO -- CAFE, THE CORPORATE AVERAGE FUEL ECONOMY REGULATIONS, DO THEY LOOK, SEE THIS AS TEMPORARY?

AS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE REVERSES?

>> THEY'RE NOT SURE.

>> WHEN THERE'S A NEW ADMINISTRATION?

>> THEY'RE NOT SURE NOW, SO THEY'RE RELUCTANT ACT MOVE FORWARD.

>> BUT DID THEY EVEN WANT TO POLLUTE ANYMORE?

>> NO, THEY REALLY DON'T, BUT IT GETS DOWN TO ECONOMICS, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, WITH THE PRICES OF GAS GOING UP, PEOPLE AREN'T QUITE AS EAGER TO BUY THE BIG SUV'S AND THING.

WE ARE VERY PRICE SENSITIVE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND FOR THEM, FOR THE AUTO MANUFACTURERS, IT'S THE SUV AND HIS AND THE TRUCKS THAT MAKE THEM THE MOST MONEY.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE STANDARDS ARE GOING TO BE, GO ON PRODUCING THOSE ONES THAT ARE MORE POLLUTE DYING JUST BECAUSE YOU GET MORE POLLUTING BECAUSE YOU GET MORE MONEY, RATHER THAN CALLING THAT BACK AND PUTTING THAT INTO YOUR ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

WE'RE ALL GOING FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES TO 1 DEGREE OR ANOTHER.

AND FOR A LOT OF CORPORATIONS, IT'S EASY TO PAINTS THEM ALL WITH A BROAD BRUSH, BUT A LOT ARE DOING WHAT'S RIGHT BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT'S RIGHT AND BECAUSE THE PUBLIC DEMANDS IT.

>> WHAT HAS THE ADMINISTRATION DONE TO SOLAR POWER IN THIS CURRENT?

>> NOT A LOT FOR IT.

>> NO.

BUT I MEAN IT'S TRYING TO WIPE IT OUT.

RIGHT?

>> THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T BELIEVE IN IT, I GUESS.

WE'RE DISCOURAGING IT EVERY WAY WE CAN.

WE'RE NOT PUTTING MONEY INTO RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE BEEN TALKING EARLIER ABOUT CHINA AND CHINA MAKING REAL INROADS IN ENVIRONMENT.

THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE THEIR I KNOW ROSE.

THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE THEIR INROADS IN PRODUCING -- THEY ARE ALREADY HAVE ALMOST A SPECIAL LOCK ON MINERALS THAT GO INTO SEE ALREADY PANELS.

BUT -- SOLAR PANELS.

BUT THEY'RE GOING TO START PRODUCING SO ALREADY PANELS AND WINDMILLS.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO THIS COUNTRIES, BECAUSE WE'RE PUTTING A TARIFF ON THEM, BUT THEY'LL GO TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, BECAUSE THE REST OF THE WORLD GETS IT.

THEY GET THAT WHILE HUMANS DON'T CAUSE CLIMATE CHANGE, BECAUSE THE EARTH AND CLIMATE HAS BEEN CHANGING SINCE THE EARTH WAS FORMED, THEY GET THAT OUR ACTIVITIES ARE SO EXACERBATING A NATURAL TREND THAT MOTHER NATURE CAN'T ABSORB IT ANYMORE AND WE CAN SLOW IT DOWN.

WE CAN'T STOP IT, BUT WE CAN SLOW IT DOWN AND PREPARE FOR IT BETTER.

AND THAT'S THE WAY THEY'RE MOVING, BECAUSE THEY WANT HEALTHY POPULATIONS.

AND IS THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET IT IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING.

>> DOES CHINA SEE AN OPENING HERE TO BECOME THE WORLD'S LEADER ON THE ENVIRONMENTS?

I MEAN, CLEARLY THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE WORKING ON ECONOMICALLY.

BUT WILL THEY SURPASS US IN TERMS OF ATTEMPTS TO ROLL BACK POLLUTION THERE?

>> WELL, WITH THEY HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE THEY GET TO THAT.

THEY STILL ARE BUILDING COAL FIRED POWER PLANTS.

YES, THEY'RE BUILDING NUCLEAR AND NUCLEAR IS THE ONLY FORM OF BASE 24-HOUR POWER THAT PRODUCES NO REGULATED POLLUTANTS BE OR GREENHOUSE GASES WHILE IT'S PRODUCING POWER.

THEY'RE MOVING FORWARD ON THAT, BUT THEY'VE GOT HUGE POPULATION TO SERVE AS GROWING ECONOMICALLY , AND THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PA LUTE IN THEIR PRODUCTION.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR AT THE PRODUCTION AND THE MONEY AND TRADE AND THINGS THAT THEY CAN GET FROM THAT, BECAUSE THAT HELPS GROW THEIR MIDDLE-CLASS, WHICH IS WHERE THEIR FOCUS IS RIGHT NOW, ON THE MIDDLE-CLASS.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON WITH OUR REPUTATION ENVIRONMENTALLY AROUND THE WORLD IT WAS A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT, NIXON, WHO SET UP THE EPA.

YOU WORKED FOR ANOTHER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WHO EMBELLISHED THE RULES THAT WERE ALREADY THERE AND MADE IT TOUGH ER TO POLLUTE.

NOW WHAT?

WHAT DOES THIS DO TO OUR REPUTATIONS *TATION OVERSEAS?

>> OUR REPUTATION ON EVERYTHING OVER SEAS IS -- RIGHT NOW THEY'RE SHAKING THEIR HEADS AND SAYING THAT'S HAPPENED TO THE UNITED STATES?

WE DON'T GET IT.

WE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAN CONSTANTLY DIS YOUR ALLIES AND TRY TO GET CLOSER ASK CLOSER TO THOSE, THE AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS.

AND FROM AN ENVIRONMENTAL POINTS OF VIEW THEY'RE SAYING WE CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES, BUT WE'VE MADE THIS MISTAKE BEFORE.

WHEN GEORGE W. BUSH TOOK US OUT OF THE PARIS ACCORD, THAT WAS NOTHING NEW.

I MEAN, PRESIDENT CLINTON DIDN'T EVEN TAKE THAT UP TO THE HILL, BECAUSE HE KNEW IT WASN'T GOING TO GO ANYWHERE.

97 TO NOTHING WAS A PRELOAD ON IT.

THAT WAS BIPARTISAN.

IT WAS THE WAY HE DID IT.

BECAUSE THE REST OF THE WORLD HAD BEEN SO ENGAGED IN DEVELOPING THE STANDARDS THAT -- >> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL TREATY?

>> YES, YEAH.

>> TO ROLL BACK CO2?

>> CO2.

AND THEY WERE SO FOCUSED ON THAT , THE KYOTO PROTOCOL, THEY SPENT SO MUCH TIME DOING IT THAT IT MEANT A LOT TO THEM DOMESTIC ALLY AND WE JUST KIND OF SAID, NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO REGULATE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE PARTS OF IT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO REGULATE CARBON AND TOO BAD.

WHEREAS IF WE'D SAID, WE'RE NOT -- THIS IS A FLAWED AGREEMENT.

THE KYOTO PROTOCOL IS FLAWED.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE PART OF THAT.

WE'LL TALK TO YOU ABOUT HOW YOU RENEGOTIATE IT.

I THINK THEY WOULD HAVE JUMPED ONBOARD AND LOVED IT.

THEY WOULD HAVE AT LEAST RECOGNIZED THEIR DOMESTIC POLITICS AND MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR US TO DEAL WITH THEM AFTER 9/11 AND THINGS TO GET ALL THE KIND OF SUPPORT THE THAT WE NEEDED BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE KIND OF, TO USE A COLLOQUIALISM, FLIPPED THEM A BIRD ON AN ISSUE THAT WAS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO THEM.

>> HOW WAS THE KYOTO TREATY FLAW ED AND HOW DID IT NEED TO BE FIXED?

>> IT DIDN'T INCLUDE -- THERE WAS REALLY NOTHING ON THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY CHINA AND INDIA, WHO BY FAR WERE HUGE POLLUTERS AND BY FAR SOME OF THE BIGGEST.

AND IT DIDN'T SET ANY TIME TABLE FOR THEM TO EVEN BRING THEM ONBOARD.

AND SO IT WAS REALLY HEAVILY WEIGHTED AGAINST -- NOT AGAINST, BUT PUT THE HEAVIEST BURDEN ON THE UNITED STATES WAY OUT OF PROPORTION TO WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE WITH THESE OTHER COUNTRIES.

AND THERE WAS NO PATH FORWARD TO GET THEM INVOLVED.

THERE WAS UNDER THE PARIS ACCORD I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT HAD JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY, EVERY DEVELOPED COUNTRIES SIGNED ON.

BUT THERE WERE NO -- CONTRARY TO WHAT PEOPLE HAVE SAID, OBAMA MADE A PLEDGE OF -- I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER HOW MUCH IT WAS THAT WE WERE GOING TO PUT TOWARD REACHING THE GOALS.

THAT WAS JUST A PLEDGE.

THERE'S NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT.

EVERYBODY SAID, OH, HE'S GIVING AWAY THE ENTIRE STORE AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO ALL OF THESE THINGS.

NO, WE WEREN'T GOING TO HAVE TO.

THAT WAS JUST A GOAL.

HE DID PLEDGE ONE HARD NUMBER, BUT IT WAS A THIRD OF WHAT EVERYONE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

AND THE ONLY LEGAL REQUIREMENT IN THE WHOLE.

PARIS ACCORD IS THAT YOU REPORT ON A REGULAR BASIS HOW YOU WOULD MOVE TOWARD THE TARGETS.

IT DOESN'T SAY YOU HAVE TO REACH THE TARGETS.

IT DOESN'T SAY YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH WHATEVER YOU SET AS A TARGET.

IT DOESN'T SAY HOW YOU'RE GOING TO DO ANYTHING.

IT JUST SAYS YOU HAVE TO REPORT THAT ARE YOU MAKING PROGRESS TOWARD REDUCING YOUR CARBON EMISSIONS OR NOT?

YOUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS?

AND SO THAT, TO MY MIND, WAS A HUGE STEP FORWARD.

AND WHEN WE DUMPED THAT, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID, NO, SORRY, DON'T LIKE THAT, THAT WAS A REAL BLOW TO OUR REPUTATION.

AND SO NOW ANY TIME YOU HAVE ENVIRONMENTAL MEETINGS, WE'RE KIND OF AT THE BACK OF THE ROOM.

NOBODY PAYS MUCH ATTENTION TO US >> AND BEING THERE AT THIS POINT IN YOUR CAREER, HOW DOES IT CHANGE HOW YOU WORK WITH -- YOU OBVIOUSLY WERE A PARTY STAR FOR MANY YEARS IN VARIOUS CAPACITIES WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR PARTY NOW?

>> WELL, I'D HAVE TO CHANGE THE TITLE OF MY BOOK, IT'S MY PARTY, TOO.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO MANY DIS AFFECTED REPUBLICANS OUT THERE.

THEY'RE NOT WHO YOU HEAR ABOUT, BECAUSE THEY DON'T CONTROL THE LEVERS OF POWER HERE IN WASHINGTON, WHICH IS WHERE THE NEWS SORT OF GENERATES.

AND THEY ARE THE OPERATIVES, THE MORE EXTREME OR THE OPERATIVES, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN VOTING IN PRIMARIES AND THEY'VE BEEN LEAVING IT TO THE MORE PASSIONATE POLITICAL MEMBERS.

THEY'RE NOT BAD PEOPLE.

THEY'VE JUST EXERCISED THEIR RIGHT TO FRANCHISE.

AND THE REST OF THE POPULATION MORE IN THE CENTER HASN'T.

SO THERE ARE A LOT STILL OUT THERE THAT ARE VERY FRUSTRATED, WHICH IS WHY ONLY 20% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IDENTIFY AS REPUBLICANS NOW.

29%, EXCUSE ME.

30% AS DEMOCRATS AND 40 AS INDEPENDENTS.

BUT WE'RE LOSING.

WE'RE LOSING MEMBERS AND THAT'S BECAUSE REPUBLICANS ARE NOT HAPPY WITH HARD LINE THAT'S BEEN ADOPTED IN SO MANY THINGS AND THE INCONSISTENCIES.

IT'S ONE THING TO BE FOR FAMILY VALUES AND THEN TURN AROUND AND SUPPORT SOMEONE RIPPING FAMILIES APART AT THE BORDER.

THAT HASN'T SET WELL WITH A WHOLE HOST OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPORTERS OF THE PRESIDENT AND SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS HE DOES BUT YOU LOOK AT THE FAMILY VALUES PEOPLE AND STILL EXCUSE THEM ON THAT AND YOU WANT TO SAY , HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

HOW CAN YOU TALK ABOUT FAMILY AND THEN ON THE ONE HAND, THE IMPORTANCE OF FAMILY, AND ON THE OTHER SAY YEAH, BUT THEY CAME FROM A DIFFERENT COUNTRY, SO IT'S OKAY TO TAKE THEIR KIDS AWAY FROM THEM?

>> WELL, IT'S A TRANSACTIONAL DEAL, ISN'T IT?

THEY'RE GETTING THE LEGISLATION THEY WANT APPROVED.

THEY'RE GETTING THE E APPROXIMATE.

A DONE AWAY WITH.

THEY'RE GETTING THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES THEY WANTED TO ROLL BACK GAY MARRIAGE AND OVERTURN ROE V. WADE.

>> UH-HUH, THEY ARE.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES, ISSUES THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT, BUT I STILL HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT DRAGGING CHILDREN AWAY FROM THEIR PARENTS HAS GOT TO GO COUNTER TO EVERYTHING ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF SENSIBILITIES WOULD WANTED TO SEE OR.

IS GOOD, BECAUSE FRANKLY, THOSE FAMILIES AND THOSE CHILDREN -- THOSE CHILDREN ARE TRAUMATIZED AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE TRAUMATIZED FOR A LONG TIME.

HOW THEY INTEGRATE WITH SOCIETY GOING FORWARD, WHO KNOWS?

THEY ARE POTENTIALLY SOME OF THE LIKELY RECRUITS FOR SOME OF THE TERRORIST GROUPS, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LIKE US A WHOLE LOT, HAVING DONE THIS TO THEM.

AND THE SAME WITH THE FAMILIES.

I MEAN, YOU CAN'T BLAME THEM.

YOU CAN'T THINK THAT THIS HAPPENS IN A VACUUM AND THAT THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES FOR IT DOWN THE ROAD.

SO IT'S NOT MAKING US SAFER.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO DO IT AND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT I CAN'T REMEMBER WHETHER IT WAS IN H OR WHETHER IT WAS HHS THIS SAID IN AN INTERVIEW WITH THE HEAD OF IT, HE SAID IT'S ALL ON THE COMPUTER.

WE CAN FIND THEM, JUST A MATTER OF KEY STROKES TO PUT THE KIDS BACK TOGETHER WITH THEIR PARENTS AND GUESS WHAT?

IT WASN'T.

>> NOW, I RECALL COVERING THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION STARTING IN 1976 AND EVERY CONVENTION THERE WOULD BE A ROOM FULL OF A THOUSAND WOMEN WHO LOOKED VERY SIMILAR TO YOU, VERY WELL DRESSED, VERY WE'LL POINTED WHO WERE PRO CHOICE REPUBLICANS.

DO THEY EXIST ANYMORE?

>> I KNOW, THEY DO, BUT WE JUST CLOSED THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY FOR CHOICE, BECAUSE THERE WASN'T THE FINANCIAL SUPPORT THERE FOR IT.

WHAT REALLY WAS BECAUSE SO MUCH WAS HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON.

HERE IN WASHINGTON THAT WAS GOING CONTRARY TO EVERYTHING THAT RNC WAS TRYING TO DO.

THEY JUST GOT SO FRUSTRATED.

THEY SAID WE DIDN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

WE'RE FOR THE GETTING THE SUPPORT.

WE'RE LOSING THE PARTY.

AND PEOPLE WERE MOVING OVER TO THE DEMOCRATS OR INDEPENDENT.

>> AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO TRY TO RECLAIM YOUR PARTY?

>> I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED YOU HAVE TO STAY PART OF IT AND BE IN IT TO TRY TO CHANGE IT.

AIM TRYING TO SUPPORT THE CANDIDATES WHO ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM SOLVERS CAUCUS IN THE CONGRESS.

THERE ARE 24 REPUBLICANS, 24 DEMOCRATS WHO HAVE SAID, WE ARE GOING TO STICK TOGETHER ON THE BIG ISSUES.

WE'RE GOING TO ADDRESS THEM.

AND IF TWO-THIRDS OF US AGREE ON A POSITION, WE'RE VOTE AS A BLOCK.

AND THAT BECOMES VERY SIGNIFICANT AS THE NUMBERS AFTER THIS NEXT ELECTION CYCLE GET CLOSE.

THAT WILL BECOME VERY INFLUENTIAL, BECAUSE THEY'LL HAVE TO GO -- LEADERSHIP WILL HAVE TO GO TO THEM.

>> TELL ME ABOUT EFFORTS THAT ARE GOING ON TO RECLAIM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR THE MIDDLE.

>> WELL, THIS ISN'T SO MUCH FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT I DEMOCRACY AND THE RULE OF LAW AT THE BRENNAN CENTER.

WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS HOW DO WE INSTITUTIONALIZE OR WHAT WE USED TO CONSIDER NORMAL BEHAVIOR INDEPENDENCE OF THE PRESS, FREEDOM OF INTERFERENCE WITH THE JUDICIARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENTS, ETHICAL STANDARDS.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES AND WE'RE TAKING THEM ONE AT A TIME.

WE'RE GETTING INTO THEM IN DEPTH WE HOPE TO HAVE THE FIRST OF THE PAYMENTERS UP BY THE END OF THE SUMMER IN ORDER TO BE HOPEFULLY PART OF A MIX AS YOU GO INTO THE ELECTION.

IT WILL BE ON THE ETHICS.

AND IT'S NOT ABOUT THIS PRESIDENT.

IT'S ABOUT THE INSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE MADE US WHO WE ARE TODAY AND HOW STRONG WE ARE, THAT THEY'RE BEING BREACHED AND THEY HAVE BEEN BREACHED IN THE PAST AND ARE BEING BREACHED.

AND MOST OF -- NOT ALL OF THEM, AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MANY, MANY OF THEM WILL CALL FOR LEGISLATIVE ACTION, SOME FOR REGULATION, AND SOME JUST TO PUT IN THE MINDS OF THE APPROXIMATE YOU BELIEVE AND SAY THEY SHOULD ASK THEIR PURPORTED REPRESENTATIVE OR SOMEONE WHO WANTS THEIR VOTE, SEEKING THEIR VOTE, WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THIS WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?

YOU KNOW, SHOULD ALL CANDIDATES FOR NATIONAL OFFICE OR FOR THE PRESIDENCY AND THE VICE PRESIDENCY OR MAYBE ALL NATIONAL OFFICE HAVE TO RELEASE THEIR TAX RETURNS ONCE THEY'VE GOTTEN ON THE BALLOT, IF THEY'RE ON THE BALLOT?

THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS.

WE HAVEN'T COME TO ANY FINAL DECISIONS ON ANY OF THIS KIND OF THING, BUT THOSE ARE THE ISSUES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THOSE LITTLE THINGS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS TO GET IT BACK IN THE PUBLIC'S MIND THAT THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT, WHETHER YOU'RE REPUBLICAN OUR DEMOCRAT.

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THESE AND GET OUR GOVERNMENT BACK TO WORKING FOR US RATHER THAN FOR THE PARTIES.

>> AND YOU'RE OUT SPEAKING TO YOUNG REPUBLICANS.

WHAT ARE YOU TELLING THEM?

>> SPEAK TO YOUNG PEOPLE IN GENERAL.

YOU KNOW, TELLING THEM ABOUT ETHICS IN GOVERNMENT, TELLING THEM ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING INVOLVED AND REMINDING THEM THAT WE ARE THE OWNERS OF THIS GOVERNMENT.

WE'RE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN AFFECT CHANGE.

YOU MENTIONED RICHARD NIXON STARTING THE ENVIRONMENTS.

PROTECTION AGENCY AND THAT WAS IN 1970.

THAT WAS THE TIME YOU HAD COLLEGE CAMPUS ANTI-VIETNAM RIOTS AND KIDS WERE KILLED.

YOU HAD RICE RIOTS IN OUR CITIES AND THAT WERE BURNING.

YOU HAD A LOT GOING ON.

IT WASN'T BE THAT CONGRESS SUDDENLY GOT UP ONE DAY AND SAID , OH, GEE, LET'S TAKE ON THE ENVIRONMENTS, BECAUSE THE SAME KIND OF DYNAMIC YOU HAD TODAY.

YOU HAVE SOME DEMOCRATS WHO THOUGHT THERE COOPERATE BE ENOUGH REGULATION AND SOME REPUBLICANS WHO THOUGHT ANY REGULATION WAS BAD.

IT WAS THE PEOPLE.

RACHEL CARSON WROTE THE SILENT SPRING AND THE PUBLIC STOOD UP AND SAID WE'RE TIRED OF RIVERS THAT BURST INTO FLAME FOR IN PARTICULAR REASON, WE'RE TIRED OF WATCHING FORESTS DIE OF AIR POLLUTION, BEING TOLD WE CAN'T GO OUTSIDE BECAUSE OF AIR QUALITY ALERT AND WE'RE TIRED OF WATCHING THE LAND TURN INTO A GARBAGE DUMP AND THEY PUT THE PRESSURE ON THE CONGRESS AND ON THE PRESIDENT SO YOU HAD A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WORKING WITH A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS WHO ESTABLISHED THE EPA CLEAN WALTER ACT AND CLEAN AIR ACT, SAFE DRINKING WALTER ACT.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE HAVE TO REMEMBER.

WE'RE THE ONES THAT NEED TO BE HEARD AND NEED TO TELL PEOPLE, THIS IS WHAT WE WANTED OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT.

THIS IS WHAT WE NEED.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> PLEASURE.

>> AND IT WILL BE FUN TO WATCH YOU CONTINUED IN YOUR FIGHT.

ELSE THAT IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE TEMPORARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.