>> I THINK WE ASSUME THAT WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAPPY AND PLEASURABLE SEX LIVES WE WOULD NOT BE ARGUING ABOUT ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL.

>> IS THERE ANY CHANCE OF YOUR VISION BECOMING REALITY?

>> NO.

CERTAINLY NOT IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

[♪♪] >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY, NORMALLY A NEWS AND DISCUSSION SHOW FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES ABOUT ISSUES IN THE NEWS AFFECTING WOMEN, FAMILIES AND DIVERSE COMMUNITIES.

BUT WE'RE CONTINUING OUR SERIES OF ONE-ON-ONE INTERVIEWS FOR A CHANGE WITH FEMALE THOUGHT LEADERS IN AMERICA.

AND TODAY WE HAVE JILL, WHO IS A WELL-KNOWN BLOGGER AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE AND NOW OUT WITH HER NEW BOOK WHICH IS THE H SPOT, THE FEMINIST PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

SO I MUST TELL YOU, MY FIRST REACTION TO THE BOOK WAS, I HAD NO IDEA THAT THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT WAS ABOUT SEXUAL PLEASURE FOR WOMEN.

IT WAS MORE ABOUT EQUAL RIGHTS IN THE WORKPLACE AND THAT SORT OF THING.

SO EXPLAIN HOW YOU CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION?

>> THE SEXUAL PLEASURE COMPONENT IS ONE PIECE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT WHEN I TALK ABOUT A HAPPINESS AND PLEASURE CENTERED FEMINISM.

THE WAY I CAME TO THE BOOK I HAVE BEEN WRITING AND REPORTING ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS FOR A DECADE.

AND I FIND MYSELF AGAIN AND AGAIN COVERING THE SAME TOPICS, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, ABORTION, ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL, BALANCING WORK AND FAMILY.

AND OFTEN INTERVIEWING WOMEN AT THE POINTS IN THEIR LIVES THAT WERE THE MOST DIFFICULT OR CHALLENGING.

AND IT SEEMED TO ME AFTER SORT OF THINKING THROUGH WHAT ARE THE ROOT CAUSES OF THIS MASS INEQUALITY WE SEE BETWEEN WOMEN AND MEN NOT JUST THAT WOMEN ARE TREATED DIFFERENTLY OUR PLEASURE OUR HAPPINESS AND THE WE WE WANT TO LIVE OUR LIVES WAS NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND NOT THE BUILDING BLOCK OF OUR SOCIETY.

SO IN THE BOOK I WAS CURIOUS TO INTERROGATE THE QUESTION OF WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE IF WOMEN GOT TO BUILD THE SYSTEM INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE OURSELVES EQUAL TO MEN, ASK WHAT WOULD MAKE US HAPPY?

WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?

WHAT WOULD WE BUILD IF WE HAD THE TOOLS.

>> ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE WORKPLACE IN PARTICULAR WAS BUILT OBVIOUSLY BY MEN BECAUSE ALTHOUGH THERE WERE ALWAYS WOMEN IN IT, AND OFTEN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WORKERS AND YOU KNOW IN VERY LOW LEVEL JOBS JUST TO MAKE ENDS MEET, THAT THEY BUILT IT IN A WAY THAT IT MADE THEM HAPPY?

OR JUST KIND OF HAPPENED THAT WAY?

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS A BIT OF BOTH.

AND THIS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IT IS THE LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

WHO WAS ENTITLED TO THAT WAS A NARROW GROUP, LAND OWNING WHITE MEN.

AND THE WAY OUR LAWS, POLICIES AND INSTITUTIONS HAVE BEEN BUILT SINCE THEN HAVE FOCUSED ON IF NOT LIKE THE DAY-TO-DAY HAPPINESS OF THOSE MEN AT LEAST GIVING THEM THE CAPACITY TO PURSUE IT.

YOU HAVE WOMEN, WHITE MIDDLE CLASS AS INVISIBLE PARTNERS AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND LATINA WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE BUT IT IS LOW-WAGE AND LOW-SKILL LABOR.

>> RIGHT, DOMINATING THE WOMEN TWO-THIRDS OF ALL MINIMUM WAGE EARNERS.

>> RIGHT.

AND SO YOU HAVE THIS SYSTEM THAT MAKES IT EASIER FOR THE SAME GROUP OF WHITE MEN TO SUCCEED THE SAME WAY THEY DID 220 YEARS AGO.

SO MY ARGUMENT IS NOT NECESSARILY THAT EVERY MAN IS HAPPY.

AND WE'VE CREATED A SYSTEM IN WHICH ALL MEN GET TO BE HAPPY ALL THE TIME.

THE ARGUMENT IS WE HAVE SETUP A SYSTEM THAT AT LEAST GIVES MEN A DISPROPORTIONATE ABILITY TO PURSUE THAT HAPPINESS, TO SEEK KNOWLEDGE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT GOVERNMENT SOLUTIONS TO THIS PROBLEM.

TELL ME HOW YOU THINK GOVERNMENT SHOULD GET INTO THE REALM OF FEMINIST GOALS FOR WOMEN?

>> SURE.

SO SOME GOVERNMENTS NOT THE U.S. DO ACTUALLY TAKE HAPPINESS INTO ACCOUNT WHEN MAKING LAWS.

MANY GOVERNMENTS ARE PLACES IN SCANDINAVIA WHICH FROM AN AMERICAN FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE ARE LIKE DISNEYLANDS.

THE U.S.

DOES NOT.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IF WE TOOK PLEASURE AND HAPPINESS INTO ACCOUNT A LOT OF OUR MORE POLITICAL BATTLES WOULD CEASE TO BE RELEVANT.

IF WE ASSUME THAT WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAPPY AND PLEASURABLE SEX LIVES WE WOULD NOT BE ARGUING ABOUT THE ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL AND AGREE THAT MOTHERHOOD SHOULD BE ABOUT PLEASURE AND GETTING TO SPEND TIME WITH YOUR CHILDREN AND IF YOU CHOOSE TO FORGE AN INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY AT WORK I DO NOT THINK WE WOULD BE ARGUING ABOUT PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

>> BUT BRINGING SEXUAL PLEASURE INTO IT, DOES THAT HURT OR HELP FEMINISM?

BECAUSE CLEARLY, THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND THE FAR RIGHT AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE ALREADY SO AFRAID OF SEX AND YOU KNOW THEY DON'T WANT ABORTIONS NOW AND DO NOT WANT BIRTH CONTROL FOR WOMEN.

IF YOU START TALKING ABOUT WOMEN'S HAPPINESS IN -- OWE DURING SEXUAL PLEASURE DON'T YOU THINK YOU WILL SCARE OFF MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU WILL WIN OVER?

>> I THINK WE'LL SCARE OFF SOME PEOPLE.

BUT I THINK AS A MOVEMENT FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUALITY THE GOAL CANNOT BE WHO ARE WE GOING TO ALIENATE.

THE GOAL IS WHAT IS THE VISION WHAT DO WOMEN'S RIGHTS LOOK LIKE AND HOUR HAPPINESS POWER LOOK LIKE?

IF YOU TAKE SEXUALITY OUT OF THAT THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF ALL OF OUR LIVES WHETHER WE ARE SEXUALLY ACTIVE OR NOT.

AND SO MANY OF OUR POLITICAL BATTLES AND SO MUCH OF WHAT UNDERLIES DISCRIMINATION THAT WOMEN FACE IS VERY MUCH VESTED IN OUR IDEAS ABOUT SEX.

SEX ROLES AND SEX ITS TESTIFY AND SEXUAL PLEASURE AND ATTRACTION.

I DO NOT THINK YOU CAN PUSH THAT TO THE SIDE BECAUSE YOU ARE AFRAID OF ALIENATING THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT.

YOU NEED TO PUT IT MORE IN THE FOREFRONT AND FORWARD A POSITIVE FEMINIST VISION AND HOPEFULLY YOU WILL GET MORE PEOPLE OVER TO YOUR SIDE.

>> IN THIS ERA WHERE WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WE HAVE REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED CONGRESS, IS THERE ANY CHANCE OF YOUR VISION BECOMING REALITY?

>> NO.

CERTAINLY NOT IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

BUT I DO THINK AS MANY OF US WHO ARE NOT 100% BEHIND THIS CURRENT PRESIDENT OR CURRENT ADMINISTRATION I THINK AS WE ARE BEING PART OF THIS ANTI-TRUMP RESISTANCE AS WE ARE PUSHING BACK ON LAWS THAT CONSTRAIN WOMEN'S RIGHTS, IT'S CRUCIAL NOT TO JUST BE REACTIVE AND SAY NO WE ARE NOT DOING THIS NO WE DON'T WANT THIS.

I THINK WE ARE TASKED WITH PUTTING FORWARD OUR OWN VISION OF WHAT A GOOD LIFE LOOKS LIKE AND WHAT AMERICA LOOKS LIKE.

AND I THINK IN CREATING THAT KIND OF PRO-ACTIVE AND POSITIVE VISION THAT HOPEFULLY WE CAN ALL KEEP OUR EYE ON, KEEPING WOMEN'S HAPPINESS AT THE CENTER OF THAT, IS CRUCIAL AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT TRUMP IS OFFERING US.

>> WOMEN'S HAPPINESS AND WELL-BEING CERTAINLY.

BUT TO ASK THE GOVERNMENT TO INTERVENE TO HELP WOMEN'S SEXUAL PLEASURE?

WILL THAT EVER REGARDLESS OF WHICH ADMINISTRATION, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE PURSUED THAT AS A GOAL.

>> I'M SURE THEY WOULD NOT PUT IT IN THOSE TERMS AND I WOULD NOT EXPECT POLITICIANS TO FRAME IT THE WAY I DO.

BUT IT IS A GOOD TRADITIONAL ARGUMENT FOR THIS.

RIGHT?

IF YOU ARE A CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN YOU WANT TO SEE MARRIAGES THRIVE AND WANT TO SEE PEOPLE HAVE MORE STABLE INTIMATE RELATIONSHIPS.

ONE OF THE WAYS YOU DO THAT YOU GIVE PEOPLE THE SPACE TO PLAN THEIR FAMILIES SO THEY DO NOT HAVE DISRUPTION IN THEIR MARRIAGES AND GIVE PEOPLE THE SPACE TO BOND AND TO HAVE THE KIND OF INTIMATE INTERACTION HAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE A MARRIAGE THRIVE IN ORDER TO HAVE THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE TIME.

IF YOU ARE WORKING THREE MINIMUM WAGE JOBS YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF TIME TO SPEND INTIMATE MOMENTS WITH YOUR PARTNER.

YOU NEED TIME OFF AFTER YOU HAVE A CHILD AND BIRTH CONTROL ACCESS TO PLAN YOUR FAMILIES.

A LOT OF THESE PIECES IF YOU FRAME THEM THE RIGHT WAY CAN ACTUALLY REALLY APPEAL TO MOST AMERICANS FOR WHOM A LOT OF THIS STUFF IS COMMON SENSE.

>> THE ATLANTIC MAGAZINE SAYS THE H SPOT ARGUES FOR A MOVEMENT THAT DEEMPHASIZES WOMEN'S EQUALITY AND FOCUSES ON THEIR FULFILLMENT.

EQUALITY VERSUS HAPPINESS AND PLEASURE.

THAT YOU DEEMPHASIZE EQUALITY BUT RESPOND TO THAT CRITICISM, PLEASE.

>> SURE.

SO I'M CERTAINLY NOT SAYING THAT EQUALITY IS NOT IMPORTANT.

I AM A FEMINIST I WANT WOMEN TO BE EQUAL TO MEN.

I THINK THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT HAS DONE INCREDIBLE WORK AND WE ARE STILL STRONG AND MOVING FORWARD.

FOR ME, THE QUESTION IS NOT DO YOU PICK EQUALITY OR HAPPINESS.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT DOES OUR GOAL LOOK LIKE?

IS IT TO MAKE US EQUAL TO MEN BUILT FOR AND BY MEN OR UNDERMINE SOME OF THE INSTITUTIONS AND LAWS AND POLICIES THAT HAVE BEEN BUILT BY MEN, AND FOR MEN.

AND I FRANKLY DON'T THINK WE ARE EVER GOING TO BE EQUAL IN.

>> WHICH INSTITUTIONS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WAY OUR WORKPLACES ARE SETUP.

THE WAY THAT OUR TAX CODE IS SETUP AND HOW WE VALUE CERTAIN RELATIONSHIPS OVER OTHERS AND CERTAIN FAMILY CONSTRUCTIONS OVER OTHERS.

WE'VE STRUCTURED OUR SOCIETY IN A WAY THAT CONFERS GREAT HONORING BENEFITS ON TO A SMALL GROUP OF MOSTLY MALE PEOPLE.

AND SO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IS YES, KEEP WORKING ON MAKING US EQUAL.

BUT QUESTION THE FOUNDATIONS OF IT AND SEE IF WE CAN START REBUILDING THESE THINGS FROM THE GROUND UP TO REFLECT WHAT WOMEN NEED AND WANT IN OUR LIVES.

>> IS THE GOAL HAVING LAWS THAT MAKE US EQUAL TO MEN?

OR JUST REMOVE THE BARRIERS THAT STILL STAND, THE SEXISM WHICH SOME WOMEN OF COLOR HAVE SAID NOW THAT SEXISM IS WORSE THAN RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

REMOVING THE BARRIERS TO EQUALITY AS OPPOSED TO MAKING WOMEN EQUAL?

>> I GUESS I THINK IT'S BOTH.

I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

OF COURSE WE HAVE TO REMOVE BARRIERS TO EQUALITY.

AND THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT STARTED BY DISMANTLING LAWS THAT TREATED WOMEN UNEQUALLY.

WE'VE DONE THAT PART AND THAT IS A BIG AND IMPORTANT PART.

I THINK THE NEXT STEP IS NOT JUST REMOVING THE BARRIERS BUT ASKING WHAT ARE WE REMOVING THE BARRIER TO?

WHAT IS THE STRUCTURE?

WHO MADE IT?

WHO DOES IT BENEFIT?

WHOSE LIFE DOES IT REFLECT?

WE SEE WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE HEALTHCARE BILL AND EVERY SENATOR CHARGED WITH THE REVISION OF THIS BILL IS A MAN.

DO YOU THINK A GROUP OF WHITE WEALTHY OLDER MEN REALLY UNDERSTAND THE HEALTHCARE CHALLENGES OF THE WHOLE REST OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

I DON'T THINK THEY DO.

AND SO NOT -- >> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT I WOULD LIKE YOUR REFLECTIONS ON THE HOUSE VERSION OF THE BILL ELIMINATES COVERAGE OF MATERNITY.

SO THEY TAKE AWAY ABORTION AND TAKE AWAY BIRTH CONTROL AND THANK YOU NOW IF YOU DO GET PREGNANT WHICH WE NEED WOMEN TO GET PREGNANT IN THIS COUNTRY, WE NEED A NEXT GENERATION, AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING FROM YOU.

AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO PAY $17,000 ON AVERAGE FOR YOUR OWN PREGNANCY AND BIRTH.

IT RIGHT.

>> RIGHT.

THIS IS I WILL ADMINISTRATIVE WHAT HAPPENS NOT ONLY WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE WOMEN IN THE ROOM BUT WHEN THE BASELINE ASSUMPTION IS THAT WHAT MEN EXPERIENCE IN THEIR LIVES IS UNIVERSAL AND NORM NATIONAL.

>> NORMAL.

>> DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND THEY WOULD WANT THEIR OWN WIFE'S MATERNITY BENEFITS COVERED IN THEIR HEALTH PLAN?

>> SURE, AND I GUESS THEY WILL GIVE THEMSELVES A HEALTH PLAN THAT WILL COVER THOSE BENEFITS.

CONGRESSMEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THAT FOR THEMSELVES EVEN IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO IT FOR THE REST OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> ON ANOTHER TOPIC, IN THE BOOK YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT A WOMAN JANET ROLAND WHY IS HER STORY SO CENTRAL TO THE BOOK.

>> JANET IS SOMEONE I MET WHEN I WAS WORKING FOR KOZ POLL COSMOPOLITAN.

I WAS INTERVIEWING HER MAKING JUST ABOVE MINIMUM WAGE WITH HER THREE CHILDREN A SINGLE MOM.

AND JANET IS SOMEBODY FOR WHOM LIFE HAS BEEN HANDED A BUNCH OF PUNCHES.

SHE WAS A FOSTER KID.

WAS ABUSED AS A CHILD.

AS AN ADULT WAS THE VICTIM OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ONE OF HER EX'S IS IN PRISON FOR BEATING HER QUITE BADLY.

EVERY TIME THAT SHE SEEMS TO BE ABOUT TO CRAWL TO SOMETHING CLOSE TO STABILITY, SOMETHING BAD BEFALLS HER.

HER BENEFITS GET CUTOFF AND SHE GETS EVICTED.

SHE FINDS MOLD IN THEIR HOME AND HAS TO WIPE OUT HER MEAGER SAVINGS TO PAY TO CLEAR OUT.

WHEN I INTERVIEWED HER, I WAS ASKING HER ABOUT THE VALUES SHE INSTILLS IN THEIR CHILDREN AND WHAT SHE TEACHES HER KIDS.

AND SHE TOLD ME THE STORY.

JANET IS 28.

AND SHE TOLD ME THE STORY HOWEVER CHRISTMAS SHE DOESN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO REALLY MAKE ENDS MEET AND DOESN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY HER KIDS SCHOOL CLOTHES, BOOKS.

AND THEN SHE GOES TO TOYS FOR TOTS AND EVERY YEAR THE FAVORITE PART OF CHRISTMAS NOT WHEN THE KIDS OPEN PRESENTS BUT SHE HAS EACH OF THEM GO TO THEIR ROOMS AND FIND ONE THING THAT THEY WANT TO GIVE TO A KID THAT IS LESS FORTUNATE AND THEY BRING THE GIFTS AND DONATE THEM TO A HOMELESS SHELTER OR TO TOYS FOR KIDS PROGRAM.

AND WHEN I WAS TALKING TO HER SHE WAS SAYING IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO MAKE THEM REALIZE I HAD MY FIRST DAUGHTER AND WE WERE LIVING IN A HOMELESS SHELTER AND NOW WE HAVE A HOUSE AND WE HAVE SHOES AND CLOTHES.

IT'S STRESSFUL BUT LOOK HOW BLESSED WE ARE AND HOW MUCH WE HAVE.

HERE IS THIS PERSON WHO HAS DONE FACED A LOT OF CHALLENGES IS NOT PERFECT HAS NOT DONE EVERYTHING RIGHT BUT HAS DONE ABOUT AS MUCH RIGHT OR WRONG AS YOUR AVERAGE AMERICAN WOMAN.

AND YET STILL SHE REALLY CANNOT GET AWAY SHE IS TRAPPED IN THE CYCLE OF POVERTY AND VIOLENCE.

AND TO ME HER STORY WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOU OFTEN HEAR THAT STORY CARICATURED WHERE SHE IS THIS INNOCENT VICTIM OR SHE'S BLACK SINGLE MOTHER WHO IS EASY ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT TO KIND OF HOLD-UP AS A MORAL FAILURE.

AND THE REALITY IS SHE IS A COMPLEX PERSON WITH A COMPLEXET IS OF CHALLENGES AND SEEMED TO BE A GOOD ILLUSTRATION OF THE VARIOUS PROBLEMS THAT AMERICAN WOMEN FACE.

>> TELL ME HOW WHAT THOSE ARE.

>> SURE.

SHE IS SOMEBODY WHO IS WORKING QUITE HARD.

SHE WORKS SEVERAL MINIMUM WAGE JOBS.

BUT SHE STILL IS NOT ABLE TO SAVE.

SHE WASN'T ABLE TO GO TO COLLEGE.

SHE IS BARELY ABLE TO PROVIDE FOR HER CHILDREN.

IF SHE TAKES FULL-TIME WORK SHE MAKES JUST TOO MUCH MONEY TO RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS SO SHE IS LIVING ON THE EDGE OF POVERTY.

>> WHAT SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE DOING FOR HER?

>> I WOULD LOVE TO HE ZOO THE GOVERNMENT HAVE A STRONG SAFETY NET IT DOESN'T SEEM TO ME THAT SOMEONE WHO IS WORKING SHOULD BE LIVING ON THE CUSP OF CONSTANT POVERTY.

>> WE HAVE A CRISIS OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THIS COUNTRY.

SOMETHING LIKE ONLY ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE WHO QUALIFY FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING LIVES IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN HER LIFE.

DECENT HEALTHCARE COULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE INCLUDING PSYCHOLOGICAL AND MENTAL HEALTHCARE SHE IS DEPRESSED.

THIS IS NOT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND WHY.

AND SO MANY -- SO MUCH OF THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT WELFARE OR EVEN HEALTHCARE AND CONTRACEPTION IS VERY MUCH STUCK IN THIS WHITE UPPER CLASS OF WHAT SOMEONE ON WELFARE LOOKS LIKE AND REQUIRES A, A LEVEL OF SUPER HUMAN GOODNESS TO FEEL LIKE THAT PERSON IS ENTITLED TO RECEIVE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS.

AND B DOES NOT TOTALLY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE VARIOUS FACTORS THAT UNDERMINE A PERSON'S ABILITY TO MAINTAIN A BASIC LEVEL OF STABILITY.

>> GIVE ME A QUICK LIST WHAT ARE THE FACTORS?

>> I MEAN THE FIRST FACTOR IS THAT IF SHE GETS INJURED AND HAS TO MISS WORK SHE CAN LOSE HER JOB OR GETS SICK OR ONE OF HER KIDS ARE SICK SHE WORKS A LOW WAGE JOB WITH NO JOB SECURITY.

>> AND NO BENEFITS.

>> NO BENEFITS.

NOBODY WANTS TO EMPLOY YOU FULL-TIME BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE BENEFITS.

SHE LIVES IN A NEIGHBORHOOD THAT DESPITE HAVING SOME NEIGHBORS WHO ARE GREAT AND SUPPORTIVE AND HELP EACH OUT IS PLAGUED BY CRIME AND VIOLENCE.

SHE FEELS LIKE IT IS NOT A SAFE PLACE TO RAISE HER CHILDREN.

AND SHE DOESN'T FEEL IT IS A SAFE PLACE FOR HER TO GO OUTSIDE AND EXERCISE.

SHE DOES NOT GET ADEQUATE HEALTHCARE SHE PUTS OFF APPOINTMENTS TRYING TO SAVE MONEY OR TIME BY REALLY SHORTING HERSELF AND HER OWN HEALTHCARE.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT HER PLEASURE FACTOR?

HER OR IS IT REALLY MORE JUST GETTING HER ABOVE THE LEVEL OF POVERTY SO SHE CAN LIVE SOMEWHAT NORMAL LIFE?

>> YEAH.

THAT IS PART OF WHY I FOUND HER STORY SO COMPELLING IS DESPITE ALL OF THE BARRIERS THAT SHE IS UP AGAINST, OF COURSE, IF I SAY JANET, DO YOU WANT GAS FOR YOUR CAR OR TO BE HAPPY?

SHE IS GOING TO SAY I WANT GAS FOR MY CAR.

>> PLEASE TELL ME BRIEFLY ABOUT HER DREAM AND WHY SHE CANNOT ACHIEVE IT E IS?

>> SURE.

JANET'S DREAM IS TO OPEN A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTER.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING SHE WILL BE ABLE TO DO UNTIL HER MOST BASIC NEEDS ARE MET.

OBVIOUSLY THE WAY THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS STRUCTURED RIGHT NOW HER MOST BASIC NEEDS ARE NOT EVEN BEING MET.

WHY I THINK IT'S VALUABLE TO FOCUS ON PLEASURE AND HAPPINESS NOT JUST TO SAY THAT SOMEBODY LIKE JANET DESERVES ONLY TO NOT DIE OF STARVATION OR EXPOSURE.

BUT THAT SHE ALSO DESERVES TO PURSUE WHAT SHE FEELS IS HER PURPOSE IN LIFE.

>> AND LAST QUESTION I WANT TO START WITH THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK.

WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF FEMINISM AND, AGAIN, READING IT, I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT FEMINISM WAS ABOUT GETTING RID OF LAWS THAT WORK AGAINST WOMEN, EQUAL PAY, TITLE 9, TITLE 10, ALL THE MAJOR FEDERAL LAWS THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THE MAINLY 60s AND 70s, THE PREGNANCY NONDISCRIMINATION ACT THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

BUT YOU TALK WITH WITH BIRTH CONTROL AN INITIAL GOAL MARGARET SANGER, BUILDING UP AND MAKING BIRTH CONTROL ACCESSIBLE TO WOMEN AND BUILDING UP TO THE POINT IN 1960 WITH THE PREMIER OF THE PILL THAT REALLY SEXUAL PLEASURE WAS A GOAL OF THE FEMINISTS.

AND I'VE NEVER HEARD IT DISCUSSED THAT WAY.

EXPLAIN IT TO ME AND TO OUR AUDIENCE.

>> SURE.

SO I MEAN ONE OF THE GOALS NOT JUST A LOT OF FEMMENISTS WAS THAT SEX SHOULD NOT BE A THING ONLY FEARFUL.

SINGER WAS FOCUSED ON THE NEGATIVE HEALTH IMPACTS OF HIGH RATES OF UNINTENDED PREGNANCY AND VERY, VERY HIGH RATES OF UNSAFE ABORTIONS.

BUT I THINK THEY WERE INTERESTED IN THIS IDEA THAT SEX WAS NOT JUST A THING FOR MEN.

AND THAT FOR WOMEN GETTING TO CONTROL THE NUMBER AND SPACING OF YOUR CHILDREN WAS NOT JUST GOOD FOR YOUR OWN PHYSICAL HEALTH BUT COULD MAKE YOU A BETTER PARTNER.

IT COULD MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER.

>> WHERE DO YOU SEE THEM SAYING THIS?

>> SORRY 0.

IT'S MORE LIKE 1960s AND 70s FEMINISM WHICH DOVETAILED WITH THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION.

WHICH, OF COURSE, YOU DID HAVE A REAL FOCUS ON THINGS LIKE DISMANTLING LAWS THAT PUT WOMEN IN DIFFERENT POSITION AS MEN.

BUT YOU ALSO HAD A LOT OF SECOND WAVE FEMINIST WRITING ON THE IMPORTANCE OF WOMEN UNDERSTANDING THEIR BODIES OUR BODIES OURSELVES, YOU KNOW, WHICH DID IN GREAT DETAIL TALK ABOUT PLEASURE WOMEN RECEIVE FROM THEIR OWN SEXUALITIES AND THEIR OWN BODIES.

SO THIS WAS VERY MUCH AND HAS BEEN PART AND PARCEL TO THE FEMINISM MOVEMENT.

>> HOW DOES THAT INFORM WHAT YOU SUGGEST IN THE BOOK WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY GETTING TO THE POINT OF GOVERNMENT PROCEDURES, GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS, TO HELP WOMEN NOT JUST BECOME FINANCIALLY STABLE AND HAVE THE SAME ACCESS TO CAPITAL AND THE ACCESS TO THE ABILITY TO SUCCEED AS MEN DO, BUT ALSO THAT GOVERNMENT POLICY SHOULD BE DEVOTED TOWARDS WOMEN'S SEXUAL PLEASURE.

>> SURE.

SO THE GOVERNMENT POLICY SHOULD BE DEVOTED TO OUR HAPPINESS AND PLEASURE BROADLY INCLUDING OUR RIGHTS TO HAVE FULFILLING AND HAPPY SEX LIVES AND I GUESS SORT OF BIG HOPE THAT I HAVE FOR THE BOOK, IS NOT THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO READ IT AND WE ARE GOING TO GO AROUND THE SAME GERBIL WHEEL DEBATES OF PAID FAMILY LEAVE OR CHILDCARE OR THE LIST OF TYPICAL KIND OF LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC VOTING WANTS.

I HOPE WE GET THOSE THINGS, TOO.

BUT TO ME THE MORE INTERESTING QUESTION IS WHEN WE REFRAME WHAT THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT IS IN HELPING TO BUOY WOMEN'S HAPPINESS WHAT ARE WE NOT TALKING ABOUT, WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE NOT EVEN REALLY CONSIDERED YET BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN THINKING SOLELY WITHIN THIS VERY TRADITIONAL FRAMEWORK.

AND WHAT I HOPE IS THAT PEOPLE WHO READ THE BOOK AND OF COURSE WILL BE BEHIND THE LAUNDRY LIST OF POLICIES THAT FEMME FEMINISTS LONG ADVOCATED FOR BUT FOLKS WILL COME UP WITH MORE INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS THAT WILL TAKE US OUT OF JUST CATCHING WOMEN UP TO WHERE MEN ARE VIEW AND FIGURING OUT WAYS TO UNDERWRITE THE VARIOUS THINGS THAT MAKE WOMEN HAPPY IN OUR LIVES.

>> IN CLOSING, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT, DO YOU THINK WOMEN AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE FEELING LIKE FEMINISTS SHOULD BE HELPING ME ACHIEVE OTHER ORGASM?

OR THINKING ABOUT OTHER THINGS?

>> I THINK SEX IS ONE IMPORTANT COMPONENT IT'S ONE CHAPTER OF THE BOOK.

AND IT'S ONE COMPONENT OF OUR LIVES.

I DO THINK WHAT WOMEN ARE HOPEFUL FOR WHAT I HOPE THEY WILL BE HOPEFUL FOR AFTER THEY READ THIS, THAT TAKE SERIOUSLY HOW THEY LIVE, WHAT THEY WANT AND OFFERS A NEW FRAMEWORK FOR ACHIEVING A SET OF POLICY GOALS THAT WILL HELP IMPROVE THEIR LIVES OVERALL.

>> ALL RIGHT THANK YOU.

AND GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR BOOK.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY.

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