>> BONNIE ERBE: ONE OF THE THINGS WE WANT TO RECKON WITH IF WE WANT TO CHANGE SOME OF THE INIQUITIES THAT BEN ARE THINKING ABOUT WE HAVE TO SETTLE IN AND BE PREPARED TO BE ANGRY FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF WORK TO DO.

>> BONNIE ERBE: HELLO, AND WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

"GOOD AND MAD: THE REVOLUTIONARY POWER OF WOMEN'S ANGER," THAT'S THE TITLE OF REBECCA TRAISTER'S NEW BOOK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF WOMEN'S ANGER AS POLITICAL FUEL.

SHE JOINS US NOW.

HAS THERE EVER BEN A TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN WOMEN'S ANGER WAS SO FOCUSED ON THE PRESIDENT?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: ON THE PRESIDENT.

THAT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

I MEAN I THINK THAT THERE ARE COMPARABLE MOMENTS WITHIN ACTIVISM IN WHICH THERE HAS BEEN ACTIVE AND ANGRY FOCUS ON THE PRESIDENT.

THERE WERE PERIODS ESPECIALLY TOWARD THE END OF THE SUFFRAGE CAMPAIGN AND ADVANCE OF THE PASSAGE AND RATIFICATION OF THE 19TH AMENDMENT WHERE THERE WAS TREMENDOUS ANGER OF WOODROW WILSON AND SOME OF THE STUFF THAT SOME SUFFRAGIST ACTIVISTS WERE DOING WERE BURNING WILSON'S SPEECHES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> BONNIE ERBE: AND ALSO GETTING ARRESTED FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: GETTING ARRESTED.

YES, YEAH.

SO I THINK THAT THERE WERE CERTAINLY -- I THINK THAT THERE WERE FRUSTRATIONS DURING PERIODS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT BUT NO THIS KIND OF -- THE FOCUS ON THE PRESIDENT AND HIS DISDAIN FOR WOMEN AND THEIR STORIES AND THEIR VALUE, I THINK THIS IS A PARTICULAR SET OF POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT IS A SIGNATURE OF THE TRUMP ERA AND WAS IN PLAY TO SOME DEGREE BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED WHEN THERE WAS SUCH ANGER IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE RELEASE OF THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD TAPE AND THERE WAS A SORT OF PERIOD OF PREVIEW OF WHAT WOULD LATER BECOME THE #METOO MOVEMENT IN THE FALL OF 2017 WHEN WOMEN TOOK TO SOCIAL MEDIA AND TOLD THEIR STORIES OF BEING GROPED OR ASSAULTED AND WOMEN CAME A TIME AND TOLD THEIR STORIES OF DONALD TRUMP ASSAULTING THEM ON THE RECORD.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, HE WON THE ELECTION.

HE DID NOT WIN THE POPULAR VOTE HE WON THANKS TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE BUT IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT DESPITE THIS ENORMOUS SHOW OF FURRY FROM WOMEN IN ADVANCE OF THAT WIN 53% OF WHITE WOMEN DID VOTE FOR HIM.

WHICH CALLED INTO QUESTION HOW BROAD IS THE ANGER IS IT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO PERSUADE WHITE WOMEN TO NOT SUPPORT A MAN WHO SHOWS OPEN DISDAIN AND DISRESPECT FOR THEM AND THEIR AUTONOMY, THEIR BODILY AUTONOMY.

AND THAT IS A QUESTION I THINK WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR ANSWERS TO EVER SINCE.

YOU KNOW, IS THE ANGER WHICH IS LOUD AND MASS AND I VIEW AS POLITICALLY CONSEQUENTIAL HOW MANY WOMEN ARE GOING TO BE DRAWN INTO IT AND INTO A CRITIQUE OF TRUMP IN A WAY THAT AFFECTS THEIR VOTES?

AND THAT IS A QUESTION THAT IS GOING TO BE ANSWERED NOT ONLY IN NOVEMBER BUT IN 2020 AND 2022 AND 2024.

>> BONNIE ERBE: DO YOU THINK -- HOW DO YOU VIEW THE WOMEN WHO SUPPORTED HIM AND WHO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT HIM?

ARE THEY -- I GUESS THEY'RE ANGRY AT OTHER WOMEN FOR OPPOSING THEM?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: ABSOLUTELY.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WRITE ABOUT IN MY BOOK IS THAT WOMEN'S POLITICAL ANGER HASN'T ONLY BEEN PROGRESSIVE THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY.

SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL CAMPAIGNS LEAD BY ANGRY WOMEN HAVE BEEN ON BEHALF OF FUNDAMENTALLY CONSERVATIVE REACTIONARY, RIGHT WING AND WHITE PATRIARCHAL POLITICS.

PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY IS AN OBVIOUS EXAMPLE OF THIS.

SHE LEAD A CRUSADE THROUGH THE LATE 1970S BASICALLY AGAINST THE SECOND WAVE FEMINIST MOVEMENT.

>> BONNIE ERBE: AND AGAINST THE ERA.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE ERA, AND SHE WON.

AND SHE WAS LEADING BASICALLY AN ARMY OF WOMEN WHO WERE ANGERED BY THE DISRUPTION TO GENDERED POWER STRUCTURES THAT HAD BEEN PRECIPITATED BY THAT 1970'S SECOND WAVE OF AMERICAN FEMINISM AND IN THEIR ANGER AT HAVING GENDER ROLES QUESTIONS AND ALTERED THEY ACTUALLY DEALT THAT MOVEMENT A KIND OF SYMBOLICALLY KILLING BLOW IN STOPPING THE RATIFICATION OF THE ERA.

WOMEN ARE ANGRY ON BOTH SIDES OF THE PARTISAN AISLE.

I WOULD -- >> BONNIE ERBE: WHO HAS BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL OVER AMERICAN HISTORY IN CHANNELING THAT ANGER INTO MOVEMENTS THAT -- THAT END UP WIELDING REAL TANGIBLE RESULTS?

>> HUB HER CAMPAIGN WAS REAL AND IT DIDN'T UNDO THE PROGRESS OF THE WOMEN MOVEMENT IN THE 1970 HAD MADE AROUND WORKPLACE DISCRIMINATION AND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND SEXUAL REVOLUTION TUNE NINE, SEXUAL HARASSMENT LAW, AND SHE COULD NOT UNDUE ALL OF THAT.

>> HE IS THE PARTY THAT SUPPORTS THEM AND THE VEHICLE TO ENACT THE KIND OF CHANGES TO BOLSTERING OF A WHITE PATRIARCHAL SYSTEM THAT THEY WANT TO SEE.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT HE JUST SAYS OUTLOUD WHAT HAS BEEN SORT OF PRETTIED UP IN CONTEMPORARY POLITICAL POLITICS.

THAT IS MY VIEW OF THE CONTEMPORARY REPUBLICAN PARTY AND IT IS MEDIA OUTLETS.

THEY HAVE ALL BEEN WORKING TOWARDS THIS.

THIS IS THE DREAM.

THE THING THAT DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO RIGHT NOW WHICH IS CEMENT A COURT THAT IS GOING TO PUT INTO PLACE AND THIS GETS TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT IS HE GOING TO UNDO PRACTICING?

THAT IS THE IDEA AND THAT IS UNDOUBTEDLY THE IDEA THE CONTROL OF THE SUPREME COURT COURT MEANS THAT THE RIGHT WILL HAVE FOR A GENERATION THE POWER TO REVERSE THE PROGRESS MADE BY MANY OF THOSE SOCIAL MOVEMENTS, MANY OF WHICH HAD BEEN EITHER LEAD BY OR CATALYZED BY THE ANGER OF WOMEN.

SO THEY CAN UNDO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS BARGAINING.

>> BONNIE ERBE: WELL AFFIRMATIVE ACTION WAS PRETTY MUCH UNDONE IN THE 80S.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: RIGHT.

A LOT OF THIS STUFF HAS BEEN ERODED ANYWAY.

THAT HAS BEEN, AS THEY SAY, THE BIG PROJECT OF THE RIGHT, IS TO REVERSE THE KINDS OF PIECES OF PROGRESS AND MECHANISMS THAT GOT MORE PEOPLE TO MORE OPPORTUNITY IN SOMETHING CLOSER TO EQUALITY IN THE COUNTRY.

UP HAVE IF YOU CAN REVERSE THOSE MECHANISMS WHICH THE COURT HAS THE POWER TO DO, PART OF THE IDEA IS THAT YOU CAN DIMINISH OR HALT THE GROWING POWER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY WHITE MEN.

>> BONNIE ERBE: WELL THEN DO YOU FAULT PROGRESSIVE WOMEN FOR NOT HARNESSING THEIR ANGER SOON ENOUGH OR EARLY ENOUGH?

LIKE I WAS READING AT ONE POINT -- THERE WAS AN ARTICLE ABOUT HOW EVERYTHING THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE DOING IS THE RESULT AND WINNING IS THE RESULT OF YEARS OF STRATEGIC PLANNING AND 40 -- >> REBECCA TRAISTER: YES.

>> BONNIE ERBE: LIBERALS KIND OF SAT THERE BECAUSE THEY HAD THE COURT BACK THEN, THEY HAD CONGRESS, THEY HAD THE HOUSE FOR 40 YEARS.

THEY FIGURED THEY WOULD NEVER LOSE AND BIT BY BIT BY BIT THEY HAVE.

THEY WERE THE VOICE OF THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT OF THE 60S AND 70S BUT THEY KIND OF DID NOTHING IN THE 80S AND 90S AND EARLY 2000S TO KEEP THAT GOING.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: RIGHT.

SO FOR THAT I DO NOT BLAME JUST PROGRESSIVE WOMEN I THINK THAT THE LEFT IN THIS COUNTRY, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO DEFINE WHAT PASSES FOR LEFT POLITICS IN THIS COUNTRY, I THINK HASN'T DONE A LOT OF WISE STRATEGIC WORK.

THE RIGHT BUILT MACHINES, IT BUILT ITS MEDIA MOUTHPIECE IT FOCUSED ON THE COURT IT FOCUSED ON REACHING ITS COALITION THROUGH THE CHURCH AND THROUGH A SERIES OF MORAL MESSENGERS.

THE 1980S SORT OF JOINING OF A MORE MAJORITY WITH A RIGHT-WING, YOU KNOW, CREATED ALL KINDS OF COMMUNE INDICATED MECHANISMS THAT SERVED THE PARTY WELL.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY STRATEGIC AND THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT BEEN PARTICULARLY STRATEGIC AT ALL.

AND THE LEFT HAS NEVER BEEN GOOD AT UNDERSTANDING THE ROLE THAT THE COURT PLAYS IT MAY BE THAT THE LEFT IS ABOUT TO GET REALLY GOOD AT UNDERSTANDING THE ROLE THAT THE COURT PLAYS NOW THAT IT IS TOO LATE AND THE COURT IS VERY LIKELY TO DEAL US BLOWS THAT ARE GOING TO LAST WELL BEYOND OUR LIFETIMES.

>> BONNIE ERBE: DO YOU THINK THE KAVANAUGH HEARINGS AND NOMINATION, DID THAT GALVANIZE MORE WOMEN ON THE LEFT THAN WHO HAD ALREADY BEEN GALVANIZED BY THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY OR WAS IT JUST GALVANIZING THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY GALVANIZED?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: EACH NEW ENTRY POINT INTO THIS MASS OF RESISTANCE TO THE IMPOSITION OF FURTHER MECHANISMS IN EQUALITY I THINK IT BUILDING ON ITSELF.

IT IS NOT JUST THAT ONE IS COMING IN AND REPLACING THE OTHER.

EACH ONE -- THERE WERE PEOPLE DRAWN IN AFTER THE PARKLAND SHOOTINGS.

THERE WERE PEOPLE DRAWN IN AROUND WHO HAD NOT PROTESTED BEFORE DURING THE FAMILY SEPARATION PROTEST ITS.

I THINK THAT KAVANAUGH HAS PROBABLY DRAWN SOME OTHERS.

YOU KNOW, ANOTHER WAIVE OF REVELATIONS OF HOW MANY WOMEN HAD EXPERIENCED ASSAULT OR HARASSMENT IN THEIR YOUTH AND SORT OF BROUGHT THEM INTO THIS CONVERSATION.

I THINK THAT WHAT WE'RE WATCHING IS THE RENEWABILITY OF RAGE.

IN RESPONSE TO ALL KINDS OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE -- REALLY CRUCIAL THING ABOUT IT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IS THAT WE'RE GETTING A VIEW OF HOW ALL THESE THINGS ARE LINKED WHICH IS ALWAYS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IN WOMEN'S MOVEMENT BECAUSE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT IS MAJORITY MOVEMENT.

IT IS A MASS MOVEMENT.

IT IS BY DEFINITION A MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE WITH COMPETING INTERESTS, PERSPECTIVES, THERE IS INEQUALITY WITHIN THAT MOVEMENT.

RACIAL AND CLASS INEQUALITY THAT HAS PROVED, YOU KNOW, DIVISIVE IN MANY INSTANCES AND THAT IS NOT GETTING ANY LESS DIVISIVE BUT WE'RARY AIRING A LOT OF THAT DIVISION AND A LOT OF THE ANGER PRODUCED BY THE INTERNAL INEQUALITY.

AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE UNDERSTANDING HOW MANY OF THESE ISSUES ARE WOMEN'S ISSUES.

I THINK THAT THAT IS -- THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT IS HAPPENING AROUND US WE'RE GETTING THIS CIVIC EDUCATION IN A REAL VIEW OF HOW GUN VIOLENCE, SCHOOL SHOOTINGS, ARE LINKED TO POLICE VIOLENCE, IT IS LINKED TO RACISM, TO SEXISM TO ASSAULT.

THESE THINGS ARE ALL BATTLES THAT ARE WORTH FIGHTING TOGETHER.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS MOMENT THAT HAS POTENTIAL EVEN IN THE FACE OF LOSING A COURT AND THE FACT THAT THE COURT IS GOING TO IMPOSE ALL OF THESE LIMITATIONS ON THE ABILITY OF THE MASSES TO PROTEST.

>> BONNIE ERBE: WHERE DO YOU SEE -- WE HAD 257, 56 WOMEN GAIN THE -- THE NOMINATIONS TO RUN FOR FEDERAL OFFICE, WHICH IS A RECORD NUMBER.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: EVERY CATEGORY IT IS HISTORIC NUMBERS OF WOMEN ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER.

>> BONNIE ERBE: DO YOU THINK THEY WILL WIN?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: I DON'T KNOW.

[LAUGHTER] I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

>> BONNIE ERBE: BUT HOW DO YOU HARNESS THAT ENERGY?

I, MEAN A LOT OF POLITICIANS SAY YOU NEVER WIN YOUR FIRST ELECTION.

SO HOW DO YOU HARNESS THE ENERGY THEY HAD TO RUN AFTER THE DEFEAT OF NOT WINNING?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: WELL, WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS GIVEN ME SOME HOPE ON THIS FRONT IS WATCHING SOME OF THE ACTIVISTS, RIGHT?

IN THE SUMMER OF 2017 AROUND THE OSSOFF CAMPAIGN, I WENT TO GEORGIA AND THERE WERE ALL OF THESE SUBURBAN WOMEN WHO HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN POLITICALLY APATHETIC OR AT LEAST QUIET IN THEIR POLITICAL CONVICTIONS AFTER THE 2016 ELECTION THEY HAD BECOME REALLY ENERGIZED.

NOW, BY THE TOMB I HAD GOT THERE THERE WAS ONE LOCAL CANDIDATE THAT HAD RUN FOR LOCAL OFFICE IN HIS COMMUNITY THAT I WAS VISITING WHO HAD LOST.

NOW SHE WAS RUNNING AGAIN.

IN FACT, THE WOMEN WHO DEDICATED THEIR LIVES TO HER WERE BACK IN ON OTHER ELECTIONS AND THEY SWORE TO ME THE NIGHT I WAS THERE, THE NIGHT THAT OSSOFF LOST, THESE WOMEN DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS HAVING BEEN PERSONALLY TRANSFORMED BY THEIR ENTRANCE INTO POLITICAL ACTIVISM AND THEY SPOKE IN TERMS OF COMING OUT OF THE CLOSET AND BECOMING NEW PEOPLE.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE TO BE AROUND THAT KIND OF ENERGY AND I WORRIED VERY MUCH IN 2017.

I WAS THERE THE NIGHT THAT OSSOFF LOST.

HE LOST BY A THIN MARGIN BUT HE LOST AND ALL THOSE WOMEN WHO HAD GIVEN THEIR EVERY WAKING MORNING, NIGHT, WEEKEND WITH FULL TIME JOBS AND CARING FOR CHILDREN HAD BEEN OUT KNOCKING DOORS, REGISTERING VOTERS AND I THOUGHT, 'OH MY GOD WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NOW THAT THIS GUY HAS LOST?

THEY ARE GOING TO FEEL DEFEATED.'

MY FRIEND WHO WAS THERE SPOKE TO THE WOMEN THAT WE TALKED TO AND SAID THEY ARE JUST AS DEVOTED AS THEY HAD BEEN.

I THINK THAT THERE IS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT SOME OF THESE ARE GOING TO WIND UP IN LOSSES.

ONE OF THE POINTS THAT IT IS ON ALL OF US TO MAKE IS THAT THAT SHOULDN'T MEAN AN END.

A SINGLE ELECTORAL DEFEAT DOES NOT MEAN AN END TO A POLITICAL CAREER.

MANY OF THE POLITICIANS WE HAVE BEEN ELECTED IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY HAVE LOST AND LOST AND LOST.

BARACK OBAMA, ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE POLITICAL WINNERS IN OUR HISTORY, HE LOST HIS FIRST ELECTION.

I MEAN THESE THINGS HAPPEN AND IT DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE END OF A POLITICAL CAREER.

WITHIN LESS THAN 10 YEARS HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT THESE ARE -- I THINK THAT WE NEED TO GET GOOD ABOUT TALKING ABOUT IT AND BEWARE OF AWE MEDIA MESSAGE, BECAUSE MY BIG NIGHTMARE ABOUT IF THOSE CANDIDATES LOSE IS THAT THE MAINSTREAM PUNDITS ARE GOING TO COME ALONG AND SAY 'WELL WE THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE THE YEAR OF THE WOMEN BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT WOMEN CANDIDATES ACTUALLY JUST COULDN'T DRAW THE VOTERS' AND SORT OF MAKE IT DIAGNOSTIC LIKE 'WELL IT TURNS OUT THAT WOMEN WEREN'T THE BIG DRAW THAT WE THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE.'

>> BONNIE ERBE: BUT WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE A TEST OF THAT?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: WELL I THINK IT IS A TEST OF WHETHER DEMOCRATS COME OUT AND VOTE, IT IS A TEST OF TURN OUT.

I DON'T THINK IT IS A REFERENDUM ON SHOULD WOMEN BE THE CANDIDATES.

THAT IS THE THING I AM PUSHING BACK AGAINST.

IT IS -- IT WOULD BE A REFERENDUM ON ENTHUSIASM ON THE LEFT.

CAN THE LEFT PUT OUT A SLATE OF CANDIDATES THAT ARE GOING TO DRAW VOTERS?

WHAT IS THE FEELING ON THE RIGHT?

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT THE MIDTERMS ARE GOING TO MEASURE.

OF COURSE ALSO THERE IS A CONCERN ABOUT VOTER SUPPRESSION.

I MEAN ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS GOING TO GET MEASURED, AND WE DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TRACE IT IN ALL CASES, IS THE DEGREE TO WHICH THE MECHANISMS THE RIGHT S ALREADY PUT IN PLACE TO SUPPRESS THE VOTER ARE GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT.

MEAN THAT IS MY GREAT, GREAT FEAR.

THIS IS WHAT GERRYMANDERING AND SUPPRESSIVE MEASURES ARE MEANT TO DO, AND TO SKEW THE IDEA OF 'OH WE THOUGHT WE HAD ALL THESE GREAT CANDIDATES AND WE THOUGHT WE HAD SO MUCH ENTHUSIASM BUT IT TURNS OUT THEY ALL LOST.'

WELL PART OF HOW WE GOT TO DONALD TRUMP IS THE GUTTING OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT BY THE SUPREME COURT.

I, MEAN THESE ARE WHY THEY WANT TO CONTROL THESE MECHANISMS IS BECAUSE THEY CAN DETERMINE THE ABILITY OR INABILITY OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION TO DECIDE WHO GOVERNS IT >> BONNIE ERBE: NOW, YOU SAY WOMEN HAVE GOTTEN ANGRY IN THE PAST AND THEY HAVE CREATED A LOT OF PROGRESS IN POLITICS FOR WOMEN AS A RESULT, ALSO CREATED WOMEN WHO WERE OPPOSED TO WOMEN'S ADVANCEMENT ONE MIGHT SAY IN SOCIETY.

BUT YOU SAY NOW EVEN TO THIS DAY WOMEN'S ANGER IS NOT ACCEPTED WELL.

WHY IS THAT?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: WELL I THINK THAT IT IS NOT JUST A QUARK THAT WOMEN ARE TOLD, AND WE ARE TOLD THIS IN PERSONAL WAYS AND IN PUBLIC WAYS, THAT IF WE EXPRESS OURSELVES ANGRILY WE WILL NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

WE WILL SOUND EMOTIONAL, WE WE WILL SOUND EMOTIONAL.

WE WILL SOUND UNHINGED, INFANTILE, THEATRICAL.

IT WILL MAKE US UGLY.

ALL THE PICTURES IF YOU SEE -- LOOK AT PHOTOGRAPHS OF WOMEN ON THE LEFT THAT ARE POSTED ON RIGHT-WING SITES, THEY ARE ALL PHOTOS OF WOMEN WITH THEIR MOUTHS WIDE OPEN.

THERE IS A HUGE HISTORY OF TELLING WOMEN TO SHUT THEIR MOUTHS IF THEY ARE GOING TO OPEN THEM IN COMPLAINT.

THIS GOES BACK TO A 16TH NTURY DEVISE CALLED THE BRANK AT WAS ACTUALLY A METAL CAGE AT WAS PUT ON WOMEN'S HEADS TO KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND IT WAS MEANT FOR SCOLDING WIVES.

THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN INCENTIVE TO KEEP WOMEN'S MOUTHS SHUT IF WHEN THEY OPEN THEM THEY ARE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING DISSENTING.

BUT I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS I ARGUE IN THIS BOOK IS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WOMEN'S ANGER IS DISCOURAGED IS BECAUSE IT IS POLITICALLY POTENT AND BECAUSE IT IS THE STUFF OF POLITICAL INSURRECTION AND IF WOMEN OPEN THEIR MOUTHS IN ANGER ONE OF THE THINGS THEY DO IS CONNECT TO OTHER WOMEN WHO ARE ANGRY.

THEY BECOME AUDIBLE TO EACH OTHER AND THEN THEY CAN WORK TOGETHER AND THEY CAN ORGANIZE.

WHEREAS IF THEY ARE ENCOURAGED TO BE SILENT AND TOLD THAT IF THEY ARE ANGRY NO ONE IS GOING TO LISTEN TO THEM SO MIGHT AS WELL KEEP IT IN OR DISGUISE IT AS SOMETHING ELSE AND THEN THAT ISOLATES THEM AND THEY THINK THEY ARE ALONE IN THAT ANGER.

SO I THINK THERE IS A POLITICAL PURPOSE TO SILENCING WOMEN'S ANGER.

THERE IS A REASON.

THE IRONY IN IT IS THAT FOR MEN, AND FOR WHITE MEN IN PARTICULAR, ANGER CAN BE A TOOL IN THEIR ARSENAL.

IT MAKES THEM SEEM MORE RATIONAL.

>> BONNIE ERBE: BUT WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT?

YOU MEAN, THE GENERAL REACTION, FOR EXAMPLE, TO KAVANAUGH'S KAVANAUGH'SONGER IN HIS SENATE TESTIMONY IS THAT IT WAS NOT JUDICIAL.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: IN THE AFTERMATH.

THE KAVANAUGH PIECE IS VERY FASCINATING BECAUSE IT TELLS US SOMETHING ABOUT HOW WE ARE CHANGING THE CONVERSATION AND QUESTIONING ATTITUDES THAT I THINK HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PREVALENT.

I ACTUALLY THOUGHT THE NIGHT OF HIS TESTIMONY, LISTENING TO THE NEWS, LISTENING TO PUNDITS, THE NIGHT OF I FELT THAT THE ANGER EXPRESSED BY BRETT KAVANAUGH AND BY LINDSEY GRAHAM HAD WORKED FOR THEM.

I THINK THAT WAS THE CONSENSUS THAT NIGHT.

WELL, YOU KNOW THAT TESTIMONY WAS VERY COMPELLING BUT HE CAME IN AND HE YELLED AND IT WAS ENOUGH TO PERSUADE THE OTHER MEN.

IN FACT, IT WAS, FLAKE HAD ANNOUNCED HE WAS GOING TO VOTE KAVANAUGH THOUGH.

RIGHT?

IT WAS ENOUGH EVEN IN THE FACE OF COMPELLING DEEPLY MOVING AND DEEPLY CREDIBLE TESTIMONY BY CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD.

KAVANAUGH'S ANGER WHICH HE COULD USE TO CONVEY TO THE COMMITTEE AND TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT HE HAD BEEN ROBBED BECAUSE WE KIND OF REFLEXIVELY SEE THE ANGER OF A POWERFUL WHITE MAN TELLING US THAT HE HAS BEEN WRONGED AS RIGHTEOUS AND CORRECT, THAT IS THE REFLEX.

I FELT THAT IT WAS ALMOST AN ANIMAL PAVLOVIAN REACTION, THE POWERFUL MAN IS SURE ENOUGH OF HIS CORRECTNESS IN THIS SITUATION THAT HE IS GOING TO YELL ABOUT IT.

THIS WAS THIS SORT OF SENSE OF, 'WELL OK,' THAT WORKED.

IT WAS IN THE AFTERMATH, IT WAS WITH 24 HOURS OF CONSIDERATION AND CONVERSATION ABOUT IT AND PEOPLE POINTING OUT THAT WAS CRAZY.

>> BONNIE ERBE: WELL IT WAS UNPRECEDENTED.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: IT WAS UNPRECEDENTED AND IT IS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES IN MY MEMORY, AND I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHERS, THAT I CAN RECALL SOME OF THE LANGUAGE THAT IS USUALLY APPLIED TO WOMEN'S ANGER BEING APPLIED TO BRETT KAVANAUGH'S DISPLAY.

SO I DID HEAR PEOPLE SAY THINGS LIKE 'HE SEEMED UNHINGED,' 'HE WAS HYSTERICAL.'

SOME OF THEM WERE SAYING IT TO POINT OUT THE DOUBLE STANDARD.

BUT I THINK -- RIGHT, HE DID SEEM THAT WAY.

IT DID NOT CONVEY A SORT OF CORRECT ASSURANCE.

IT -- HE WAS OVEREMOTIONAL.

HE WAS OUT OF CONTROL.

>> BONNIE ERBE: WELL AND WHEN HE WENT BACK A KLOBUCHAR AND SAID 'WELL HAVE YOU EVER DRUNK AND BEEN BLACKED OUT' NOT JUST ONCE.

HE DID THAT ALSO WITH BLOOMENTHAL AND I, WHO HAVE COVERED MANY SUPREME COURT HEARINGS, JUST KEPT WAITING FOR ONE OF THE SENATORS TO SAY, 'I AM NOT TRYING FOR A SUPREME COURT POSITION, YOU ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS.'

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: WELL HE WAS ALSO ILLUSTRATING.

GOING INTO THE HEARING THERE WAS ALREADY A CONVERSATION ABOUT GENDER AND POWER.

THERE WAS ALREADY THIS CONVERSATION, 'WE ARE NOT BELIEVING WOMEN, WE ARE DISRESPECTING WOMEN, WE ARE PRIVILEGING THE SORTIES' >> BONNIE ERBE: WELL YOU SAY THAT.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: WELL I AM NOT ALONE.

THERE WERE LOTS OF PROTESTORS SAYING THAT.

THERE WERE LOTS OF OTHER COMMENTATORS SAYING THAT.

>> BONNIE ERBE: NO BUT I AM JUST SAYING THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE WHO DOES NOT SEE IT THAT WAY.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: RIGHT BUT THERE WAS A FRAMEWORK OUT THERE.

ONE OF THE VIEWS OF WHAT WAS AT STAKE WHEN YOU ARE IN THESE HEARINGS WAS THE QUESTION OF RESPECT FOR WOMEN, THE VALUE OF WOMEN'S STORIES, HIS RESPECT FOR WOMEN.

AND SO WHEN HE GOES IN AND HE SO CLEARLY REARS BACK AGAINST THE QUESTIONING OF HIS OWN POWER, WHEN HE TURNED ON KLOBUCHAR AND SORT OF MADE CLEAR HOW MUCH HE RESENTED THAT FACT THAT SHE HAD THE POWER TO QUESTION HIM AND TURNED IT BACK ON HER WHEN IT WAS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE FOR THE SETTING.

AS YOU SAY -- >> BONNIE ERBE: IT IS NOT DONE.

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: IT IS NOT DONE AND IT IS NOT THE ROLE.

SHE IS ON THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HE IS BEING INTERVIEW FOR THE JOB.

IMAGINE GOING NTO A JOB INTERVIEW AND THE PERSON INTERVIEWING YOU ASKS YOU ABOUT SOMETHING AND YOU SAY 'WELL WHAT ABOUT YOU,' WOULD YOU DO THAT?

IT IS JUST TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

SO UPON CONSIDERATION, AGAIN I THINK THIS CAME WITH TIME, A COUPLE OF DAYS, AND THE FACT THAT SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE MOCKED HIS ANGER.

THIS IS SOMETHING NEW.

THERE MAY BE OTHER EXAMPLES OF A TIME A POWERFUL WHITE MAN'S SELF-RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION GOT PUBLICLY EXCORIATED WITH TIME, BUT THIS IS THE EXAMPLE THAT LOOMS LARGEST RIGHT NOW IN MY MIND.

I THINK THAT TELLS US THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE EMBARKING ON A MORE CAREFUL AND THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSION ABOUT ANGER AND WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE, WHEN IT IS CORRECT, FROM WHOM WE ACCEPT IT, AND WHETHER WE ACCEPT IT TOO EASILY FROM SOME PEOPLE AND WHETHER WE DO NOT HEAR IT ENOUGH FROM OTHERS.

>> BONNIE ERBE: AND HOW DO YOU WRAP IT UP IN THE BOOK?

WHERE ARE WE GOING?

YOU SAY WE MAY BE MAKING FITS AND STARTS OF PROGRESS TOWARDS RESPECTING WOMEN'S ANGER.

WHERE DOES THAT GET US?

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT?

>> REBECCA TRAISTER: WELL ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO RECKON WITH IS THAT IF WE WANT TO CHANGE SOME OF THE INEQUALITIES THAT WOMEN ARE SO ANGRY ABOUT WE HAVE TO SORT OF SETTLE IN AND BE PREPARED TO STAY ANGRY FOR A LONG TIME.

BECAUSE THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF WORK TO DO, WORK THAT IS PROBABLY GOING TO LAST OUR LIFETIMES AND INTO OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN'S LIFE TIMES.

AND WE HAVE TO GET BETTER ABOUT NOT LETTING POWER STRUCTURES TELLING US TO TAMP DOWN OUR ANGER AND TO LISTENING TO THE ANGER OF OTHER WOMEN, TAKING IT SERIOUSLY, BEING CURIOUS ABOUT IT, AND THEN WHEN WE HEAR ANGER COMING FROM PEOPLE WE AGREE WITH TO WORK ON WORKING TOGETHER, TO WORK ON FORMING COALITIONS TO DO THE WORK OF ORGANIZING AND POLITICAL ACTIVISM THAT IS GOING TO HELP US ENACT CHANGE OVER TIME U >> BONNIE ERBE: ALRIGHT, THANK YOU SO MUCH AUTHOR AND WRITER REBECCA TRAISTER.

THAT IS IT FOR THIS ADDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

D WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT EK.E AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT: PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

>> BE MORE.