- Funding for Working Capital is provided by the Friends of KTW, Raymond C and Marguerite Gibson Foundation and Kansas Department of Commerce here in Kansas.

We've had a long line of what I would call Warrior Poets who were great sheriffs, bat Masterson, Wyatt Earp, people that not just carried a big stick, but had a certain way of talking.

And really, that's kind of how I found our guest Today.

We're gonna talk about law enforcement, but with this day and age, it's all about social media and posting.

And this sheriff will definitely grab your attention with some of this stuff that he writes pretty on the mark.

He'll call people out.

But what happens though in this kind of policing, when you see the cameras roll, what sticks thin?

So stick around.

You're watching Working Capital.

- What were you alone?

I was alone.

Okay.

Why'd you run?

You Silly Goose.

Well, that's not a respectable way to respond to a traffic stop.

Are you guys a good guys?

Yeah, we're good guys.

Dude, you promise?

Yeah.

I promise you.

I'm here.

I'm the sheriff.

Hello.

Welcome to O - Welcome to Working Capital.

Today we're here with Sheriff Eric Kirch.

Like I said, I found you from social media.

Yeah, thank you.

You're a sheriff.

You're a sheriff in a great county here in Kansas.

Bucy County.

County - Pronunciation, Bucy BU means dawn of day.

- So let's just before we get into the social media, what brought you here?

I I, I think before we got started, you let me know You were from New York.

- Yeah.

New York.

Yeah.

- So no accent or nothing.

Yes.

But you know what, what brought you out here?

- I took a car, - Just fell in love with it, stranded on last 70 I, - I got done with the military.

I, I met my better half.

And she was an Army pilot for, she was a Blackhawk pilot for eight years now.

She's an evil lawyer in Topeka.

- An evil, - I won't say the firm name or her name.

- That's all right.

That's all.

- Yeah.

I, yeah, she was here.

I came here, fell in love, and I was 10 years ago.

- Well, that's another one I'd ask.

How do you go from a pilot to a lawyer?

But that, that's for another show.

Maybe we'll reach out again.

- So she, she fed me and I didn't leave that.

That's really the, the bulk of it that - I think that's the key to a good relationship on, on whoever's put.

- Yes.

- So you come to Wa Bucy, we're here in Alma.

Did you think law enforcement right away, or, or what, what got you into this office?

I you definitely are a people person.

Yeah.

And a helper.

- So I did, I was a marine officer.

I was an NCIS special agent, and then I was a contractor in Kurdistan in northern Iraq.

And I was basically on my overseas adventures.

And I, I had to grow up, I had a Peter Pan moment.

- Yeah.

- I needed to grow up.

And my ex-wife lives in Missouri and our daughter was here, and I could be a cop anywhere, but I had to be a dad here.

So after I got done with my last, I guess, you know, contract job over in northern Iraq, I took a year off to travel and see family and friends that I hadn't seen in a long time.

I met my better half, and then I was getting a vin inspection done here at the courthouse.

And I, I met the former sheriff and two hours later he hired me.

So, which was, yeah, crazy.

- Wow.

- But yeah, - I think he probably saw something because we just met.

But just walking in the door, such a genuine conversation.

You don't get that a lot with public officials.

Yeah.

Especially sometimes law enforcement, because in bigger cities like to pick it up places they, they really are a little more closed off.

So I, your style of law enforcement is, which I would kind of call harm reduction.

I would hope something like that could work in Topeka and other places also.

But it's, it's a different kind of style.

Like, like I think you guys saw in that little video from the opening, a lot of times whenever you see body cam footage, you're, you're waiting for something really horrible to happen.

Whether it's it's the perpetrator's fault or unfortunately this day and age, you know, sometimes the people behind the camera or, or for whatever reason, but let's not go there.

But seeing you actually care for that person, that that did something very wrong.

And you can tell there's something wrong in their life.

You guys could have been the biggest jerks at that moment and, and almost rightfully so, because they did put a lot of other people in danger running and whatnot.

But at that moment in time when they are safe and captured and no one else has been hurt, you saw 'em as a person, not just, let's check this off, handcuffs on and go.

Where does that level of, of leadership and care come from?

I mean, is that something from growing up and instilled, is that military?

I mean, - Because they're vulnerable and we need to be deeply human and provides strength and calm and reason instead of contributing to increase their anxiety or distress.

I mean, it's, it's a fine line between projecting order and police, you know, and one thing I found is people want police, but they hardly like being policed.

So let's try to figure out a new way of doing things, a better way of doing things here.

- And - That's what we're doing because it makes a lot of sense.

And the benefit is you're correct.

Harm reduction.

So we spend a lot of time on trauma-informed interviewing and just trying to take a whole picture approach to look at the, the whole situation.

- Look at the whole life instead of - Sure.

- The incident.

Because if you don't almost look at what caused it and I, I, you know, rehabilitation everything else down the road, let's, if you look at what caused it, even in those few moments, you are with them, whether here, whether in a jail cell, whatnot, you can make a positive impact in a lot of those people.

Because they've actually seen someone who cared in their darkest moment, who a lot of times they are trained by whoever they're around.

It all.

Law enforcement is horrible.

It, it's, it really is refreshing to see that kind of level of care these days.

- So upstairs in our jail, we do crazy things.

We call inmates by their first name.

We say things like, please and thank you and it works.

- Treat 'em like humans - Instead of they're in jail.

- Yeah.

- Can we curse on this show?

Is that po or is that, is that, I - Mean, we can go to a certain extent and we can bleep it too.

So seriously, I - Outta respect for the audience, I won't curse.

Yeah, yeah.

But they're already in jail.

Jail sucks.

I'm not gonna contribute to any, I don't want to increase their, their Yeah.

I'm here to do a job and we're gonna do it leading with humanity and authenticity - Instead of poking them after they're already down.

- Correct.

Yeah.

- I mean they, a lot of criminals I think they think they can outsmart the law, but of course in that moment, it doesn't matter who you are, you know, you've been beat.

- Sure.

So I, I've hardly encountered a evil person.

It's a rarity.

It's an extraordinary rarity all bad.

No one is the sum of any one thing.

So - I, to me, it's growing up, it's experiences, it's what you've gone through.

It's, it's the traumas, it's the joys, it's whatever else Sure.

Has mold you to that point.

And, and you don't know if someone grew up and was, was beat up every day by a brother or had a parent.

It, I, I don't have to get into with you and a lot of you viewers now, but you get where we're getting to.

But it does take that, that special touch.

So, and we see that.

And like I say, we see that a lot in some of your posts.

Some of them are, are witty and funny.

Some of 'em are really touching and more vulnerable.

One instance I saw was you were talking with, talking about domestic violence.

Of course me, like everyone else, instantly in my, in my head I'm thinking a female, a female, you know, ah, this is, this is horrible and bad, which it is.

But at the end, another paragraph or two mentioning the reverse that it does happen to men and calling, kind of calling out some of that.

'cause us as men, a lot of times, you know, if you are being hurt, you don't wanna step forward because you've been taught that then you're not a man anymore.

You know, you, you can't take it so you hide more.

But from that post, I noticed, I dunno if it was days or weeks later, someone did come forward who was in that reverse situation.

And, and it was a male who, who needed that carrying hand.

And I, I don't know if that post reached out or not, but it seems like the county has responded with the carrying you brought with you, you know?

'cause it really takes a lot to me when someone comes in from out of town - Sure.

- And has such a bleeding heart for their community.

'cause then, you know, they love the job and they love what they're doing and the protection.

'cause - On a monthly basis, I run into people that I've arrested and I've yet ever to have a negative experience.

Like people that I've arrested and I see 'em at a restaurant or see 'em at the gas pump.

And it's, it always goes something like this, Hey Eric, how's it going?

Hey, what's up man?

How, how are you?

Good.

You know, everything going good.

Cool.

Because socially we're, it's close quarters here.

- Yeah.

- You have to be delicate.

You have to be deliberately sensitive to the fact that it's impossible to treat them like a number.

Because you see that person.

Like it's a certainty that you will run into them.

And I'll be damned if I go through a life anxious because I did something or said something stupid to somebody in a moment of vulnerability.

Like when being arrested for any reason is a big deal.

It's a big deal.

It could, has a potential to permanently change your life, your perception of you, your employment, the way you're, the way you see things.

The way I, I tell the deputies, my coworkers, you might not remember everyone you have contact with, but they'll always remember you.

It's a powerful thing.

It's a huge responsibility.

And we don't take that lightly here.

- And you start off from a, from a younger age even.

So I've seen you mention before where you know, if you are the crazy high school student or someone who's all their friends doing something wrong.

Let's say they've had a few beers when they're definitely underage, you'd rather them call, drive them home, let their families figure it out with them instead of throwing the book at 'em.

Because sometimes it, it, it is the kid who normally wouldn't do it and just gets caught up and then they're overthinking it and Yeah.

Then their, their life is done where the others maybe just brush it off.

So, I mean, the harm reduction starts at an early age.

- Sure.

My philosophy is punishment is subordinate to education.

And it's not my job to punish anybody.

It's, that's, that's for the courts.

So we have officer discretion for most things.

And I think I'm taking a critical component out of the equation if I decide to be the purveyor of all things.

And is it's, you should have that parent if we're talking juveniles.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

They're gonna, I'm an idiot.

And I, I was even more of an idiot when I was, thank goodness - Cameras weren't around then.

Right - When I was, when I was a teenager.

And I had some terrible experiences with law enforcement and some fantastic experiences with law enforcement.

And both were valuable.

- Yeah.

- Both were valuable.

- It's time for a short break.

When we get back, we'll speak a little bit more with the sheriff.

Think we're watching Working Capital.

- I am Lynn Richter, a KTW, viewer and supporter.

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- Welcome back.

Okay.

Me.

Lots of other people.

Sometimes late in life, or this may be something you're thinking about as a first career, but law enforcement, you want to help the people around you.

What's the best way to get into it?

It's, is it that much different between say a, a city like Topeka, which I'll say larger city, but really it's not, not large compared to working more county crimes and, and smaller towns - Don't do it.

Kids don't become a cop.

Don't become a cop, become a firefighter.

Right.

You get to eat lasagna, hang out with your best friends.

Don't do this stuff.

It's - Chili and cinnamon rolls.

So you get no chili and cinnamon rolls here?

- No.

Okay.

No.

They get to watch.

I, yeah, we kinda like Marines make fun of Air Force dudes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's jealousy.

We make fun of firefighters 'cause we're jealous that we're not smart enough to become firefighters.

So, - And then I see everyone's making fun of seals now.

'cause it seems like, well, I mean, you do social media, but it seems like every seal has a podcast.

Now - Are you talking about Navy Seals?

Navy - Seals?

They all have fun.

So it's, there's a joke that, you know, they have to go through two weeks of social media training also.

So anyways, that's another story.

I thank you for your service to everybody.

And I, I do like it when they, they butt heads online - Except for seals.

We're done with the books.

Hey seals, thank you very much.

We're done with reading your books, so I appreciate, except for Jack Carr.

Shout out to Jack Carr.

You're awesome, man.

Termist was great.

But yeah, the rest of them, man, it's like a bunch of Streisand, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

They're always very neurotic and enough about me.

Let's talk about me.

I'm a seal.

Did you know I was a seal?

I was in the SEAL - Teams CDs - Bin Laden.

Where'd he go?

Thank you.

You're welcome.

For my service.

I'm just joking, but - I'm, you wanna see pics?

You - Can't, but I'm not because that's secret.

Yeah, it's classified.

Yeah.

- Yeah, - It's classified.

- But seriously, you say don't do it.

What?

- No, I I If, if anyone wants to be in law enforcement or whatever, if you want to be a, wanna be a philosopher or doctor or an HVAC technician or your own, your own small business or videographer, do it.

Whatever calls you, do it.

Life is very short.

- Do what you love.

- I do what you love and then get better at it and figure out where your shortfalls are too.

That's the more important part of trying to beat your performance from yesterday.

It's a, it's a, it's a method of constant maintenance and it starts with you first.

So I tell people that when I speak to the high school kids or college students and they're interested in law enforcement, I'm grateful that they're asking me my opinion on things.

And then it's a matter of, probably the most useful advice I'll provide is where do you wanna live?

And then apply at the best agency.

Yeah.

You know, if you, if you wanna live in Florida, figure out where in Florida, if you want to be a city police officer, do that.

If you want to be a county sheriff's deputy, do that.

If you wanna go federal, be NCIS or you know, something like that, do that or not.

But I think people eventually find I don't recruit.

That's what I'm saying.

- Yeah.

They, they, they need, they need a want to do it.

- Same thing for, for the military.

I, I want people to make up their own minds and there's, there's so much information available, make up your own.

Like Robert Hyland and Starship Troopers said, figuring things out for yourself is the only true freedom anyone really has used that freedom.

So - On, on kind of that note, what is your kind of your motto for, for your, I see you took it from somewhere else, but I think I saw it the other day.

Kind of your mission statement.

Maybe it came from a, a eighties movie, I think.

Yeah.

- Robocop served the public trust to protect the innocent and uphold the law.

That's the mission statement of the sheriff's office.

And yes, I rings - True - Shamelessly stole that from Robocop - Rings trust - Because it makes sense.

It does.

Plus Robocop is a Savage movie.

- Someone decides they have wanted to do law enforcement, but maybe even just seeing you or they are in a smaller town, they decide Sheriff's office, deputy sheriff, school resource officer.

Sure.

That that's another position you guys have.

It's very needed these days.

How do they get involved?

What kind of academy is there, what do people go through to become a deputy sheriff or even a school resource officer?

How, how much does that differ?

- We, at the end of the day, whether you're a KBI special agent or a deputy sheriff, or a sheriff, or a Kansas Highway patrol trooper or a game warden, you're still a Kansas Peace officer.

So you're either going through the Highway Patrol Academy in Salina or you're going to the K-L-E-T-C, which is in Hutchinson, Kansas.

I think it's 14 weeks.

I went through the federal and law enforcement training center in Georgia.

That was six months with the, - Does that kind of open up to where most states will, will take you right away instead of doing a, a different kind of testing or - Correct.

Yeah.

So I, I had, I had reciprocity.

So Kansas accepted my federal credentials to gain certification here in Kansas.

So, but that's the initial training.

There's always an academy.

Some academies are paramilitary, like most troopers in any state, they're paramilitary for.

It's, it's deliberate and - Yeah.

- Needs more discipline to it.

Federal, the federal Law Enforcement Training Center Academy was more like a college campus.

K-L-A-T-C is more of a enrichment college campus type thing.

So the Border Patrol academy in Artesia, New Mexico is paramilitary too.

- Okay.

- So there, there's a few federal, I think that's the only one.

I could be mistaken, but I'm not sure.

- Okay.

- But for, sorry, the phone's gone on.

No, it's okay.

On the radio never ends.

If you, - I I mean one of those jobs where definitely your Yeah.

On call all the time.

- Yeah.

Hey kids, if you want a job where every day's different and nothing ever ends, become a cop.

But if not, do anything else.

So for real.

Yeah.

It's, it never ends.

And that's why Yeah.

Every day's different.

For real.

And - I, on another note, because careers affect family, your wife being ex-military and a lawyer, I mean, does she like what you're doing?

No.

Or just put up with it?

- No, she barely puts up with it.

She, yeah.

Late.

A lot of every time I leave, it's, it's not one of those fatalistic things where it's like every time you go to work, she doesn't expect me to come home.

But there's, you know, that's with everybody though.

I don't, you know, - That it's anywhere that's any jam.

And and I, I know times seem like they're worse now.

- Yeah.

- But it's gone on forever.

It just used to not be reported as much.

I mean, - I'm incredibly lucky to have anyone that loves me, let alone someone who's supported me through the last 10 years of, it's this job.

It will test you, it will test your perceptions of the world, of yourself.

Probably the criminal justice system in general.

The system itself, the injustices that, you know, that mar you and, and, and upset you.

I mean, like my stance on cannabis, for instance.

Let's talk about that.

- Okay.

Let's do that.

- There are human beings that were put in jail cells because they had a dime bag of weed not that long ago.

Right.

Or, or, or a joint.

Because President Nixon said so.

Right.

Yeah.

So it's, I think it's important.

It's important to me at least to evaluate why, - Because with harm, harm reduction, - How about this?

Up until 1865, it was legal to own people in the United States, right?

Yeah.

So if you come at me with the ascertain that all laws are okay and they don't need to be amended, I'll just point to the 14th amendment, if I'm not mistaken, which is the end of slavery and the abolishment of that institution.

So Yeah.

And things need to be challenged effectively and to match the, the undercurrent societal expectations.

Most people 20 years ago with tattoos, for instance Oh yeah.

Were either sailors or felons.

- You weren't gonna jump anywhere if they saw those.

- Right.

I've got a full back piece in both sleeves done.

Right.

I'm, I'm inked up.

- Yeah.

- Try to.

Good luck meeting anyone born after nine 11 who doesn't have a tattoo.

Right.

So yeah.

Things evolve and, you know, it's, it's my role to be in assisting that pragmatically and that comes in into police reform as well.

- Well, and on that note, I mean, you spoke at the 14th Amendment.

I've had other people on this show before from hemp and, and talk about cannabis legalization also, where they bring up Anslinger in the thirties and basically bringing the laws around so they could enforce it against migrant workers.

- Sure, yeah.

- Kind of rings, it kind of brings us back around and today a little bit in ways that they're just finding ways to rid things that scare them.

Where, whereas I, today working time, like if you take away everyone that's here, that doesn't look like you, our economy crashes.

'cause there's lots of jobs and people that look like me don't want to do, so I like you say, they, they antiquated laws.

Yeah.

And not to go all the way around, but, but with the cannabis and with military, it's been shown to at least help with PTSD.

So I don't even care if it doesn't make it for the populace.

- Sure.

- I don't know why people have gone through that for us.

Can't have that little bit of relief in a way, instead of opioids or chasing alcohol Sure.

Or chasing the darkness.

- Anything that starts in bull typically continues and then ends in a climactic, you know, sea of bull too.

- Yeah.

- Right.

And I, I don't wanna look back on my deathbed and understand that I contributed to unnecessary suffering of any type.

- Yep.

- Anslinger, you, you brought up that whole thing and the, the reefer madness.

It was xeno, it was xenophobic, it was politically motivated.

There were behind every fortune there's a crime.

Right.

And we have guns and the power of arrest.

I'm not going to, I'm very observant of that.

I'm very delicate and it's, it is overwhelming at times and I'm glad I'm self-aware because there are not little things in people's lives and freedoms.

You, you have to be incredibly observant and, and reverent to that.

There's too much at stake.

Yeah.

To just continue on with the same old thing over and over and over again.

'cause it's typically not the people that are enacting or enforcing stupid laws that pay the price for it.

- Yeah.

- It's everybody else and not anymore.

- Nope.

Unfortunately, you know, this is, this is my, my my opinion.

I may cut this outta the show, but there's too much money involved in politics that, that that's all it comes down to, you know?

Sure.

You get influenced by outside, besides listening to just your populace and what they want.

There's problems all the way around.

You know, I, I think 70% of Kansans would vote for at least medicinal, but of course lawmakers that the very small percentage say no.

So on that note though, see I I I I'm, this makes me think different, your stance.

I had speculation that the fried pie shop on I 70 right next to the alma exit was actually ran by your office to catch those, those stoners, the reefer madness coming through the states.

- So no, when government forgets that the preservation of, of constitutional rights is the, like, the secondary point, and that's a, there's a problem.

Or if they, if government believes that they know what's best for the American people without asking them first, that's a problem.

If you're not extending the invitation for them to participate with their consent via opinion or their vote.

Yeah, that's a problem.

And it's incredibly important for me to pay attention to opinion and have conversations and discussions and listen and keep listening and then challenge my own beliefs.

You know, I think a lot of us early on when we were younger kids, Hey, don't do drugs.

They're bad.

Okay.

Well, all drugs.

Yes, all drugs, cool.

So - Yeah.

- What about cancer medications?

Those are drugs, you know, and then you start going down this, this line of thought of like, well, absolutism is typically, - Well, yeah, - The first step before true tyranny on anything.

Right.

So, - And, and the warped boundaries then.

So something that, that's, a lot of people consider mild like cannabis.

It is so bad to some people.

But then those same people, even though it's not prescribed to them, they'll go take someone else's medication and think, oh cool, you know, it comes from a pharmacy, it's all good.

But I'm like, you are just having methamphetamines that they're made in a clean environment.

What makes you that much different if you're abusing that compared to, I was, it's so wishy-washy.

- I was sitting in drug court and in a, in a bigger jurisdiction, I won't say wish several years ago.

And I, I was getting ready to testify and there was this several defendants that were being their initial appearances.

And I just noticed the octave of the voices that the judge was talking in, and the prosecutors and defense counsel and everybody was either sharing the same pot of coffee or they were all on Adderall.

And the only people that weren't on meth were the defendants because they were, you know, in the county jail.

They couldn't get it.

They couldn't get - It.

They couldn't get it that day.

- So it's like, let's Yeah.

Be careful what you decide to label certain things pro or against when everybody's in certain high stress jobs and they're on Adderall and they're trying and convicting people for possession of methamphetamine.

I'm not saying methamphetamines are good.

- No, - I'm just looking at it like, what?

Okay.

Yeah.

It's bad.

I get that.

The narco terrorists that are in control of that supply for those really damaging, dangerous narcotics.

Yeah.

That that's a criminal organized criminal element that needs to be combated.

- To view the extended edition of this interview, visit watch.kw.org.

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