- [Narrator] Additional funding is provided by the friends of KTWU.

- Welcome back to another chapter of Working Capital.

Today, we explore a couple novel ways to earn a living.

Join us as we learn about authoring success.

It's all about business on Working Capital.

(upbeat techno music) For the past two decades, local independent bookstores have been swallowed up by large chains and online retailers.

The Raven bookstore, however, went toe to toe with Borders and lived to tell the tale.

With a recent move, a new business model, they are authoring a new chapter in their history.

Joining us today is Danny Kane, lead bibliophile at The Raven.

Welcome to Working Capital, Danny.

- Well, thanks for having me.

I'm thrilled to be here.

- So, independent bookstores.

One of our other producers mentioned today, Harold Ramis said in 1984, that you know, print is dead.

The Raven started in 1987.

I think you were only a year or so old.

What was the fascination with The Raven bookstore and how did you get involved with this?

- Well, I first -- I would love to beg to differ with Harold Ramis and I think print is very much alive and it's just one of the favorite sports of cultural commentators and thinkers to declare the book dead when it is in fact quite alive.

So, in terms of my involvement with The Raven, I moved to Lawrence in 2014 to start a poetry degree -- a Master's degree in poetry at the University of Kansas Grad School and the humanities being what it is I needed to supplement my income a little bit.

And it had always been a dream of mine to work at an independent bookstore.

And I had never lived in a place like this that had not only one, but a couple independent bookstores.

And so I began a -- a months-long and informal campaign to secure a spot as a book seller at The Raven.

It's a very small team.

The owner was very mysterious about her hiring practices.

So I -- I basically became a fixture going to events, shopping, getting to know people who worked there, and -- and eventually a -- a part-time position opened up after about eight or nine months and -- and I jumped on it.

And from there it was history.

I just fell in love with the -- the business in general; The Raven, the book business as a whole.

- Well -- and you're not from Kansas.

- [Danny] No.

- So, I mean, you didn't know about The Raven growing up, you liked independent bookstores, but once you got in there, how did you see the -- the culture in the community supporting this bookstore?

- Well, the first thing, the first time I ever set foot in The Raven, I was in Lawrence with my wife looking for apartments.

It was a couple months before we were set to move here and we were just walking around Mass Street after we found a place and getting a feel for the town.

So it was like, oh, there's a cool little bookstore here.

And we walk in and -- and two of -- the owner and one of the book sellers who's still there, were trimming the nails on a cat who was just howling and thrashing around.

And these two women were right there in the front door trying to hold this cat.

And I was like, this is a pretty funny place.

I think I gonna like it here.

And then of course I fell in love with the creaky floors and the shelves and the -- the wonderful, curated selection and the great book sellers.

We had posters from PBS mysteries on the walls that KTWU was -- was kind enough to give us over the years.

And so it just felt -- it's -- I -- I don't get mystical much, but the vibes were -- were really, really special.

And you could tell right when you walked in.

- I mean, I've been in there quite often since I was younger.

I mean, it is, it's this special place you walk in -- the smell -- I mean, you can't beat the smell of books anyways.

- [Danny] Yeah.

- But yeah, just the old wood, the creaking, I mean, it really sets up memories for -- for down the road.

- Yeah.

Well, and I think that's one of the -- the strengths that a bookstore has over electronic alternatives like e-readers or -- or whoever else is that you -- it's really -- you just can't replicate the physical environment of a bookstore and it's -- it's designed to make you feel comfortable, to make you feel welcome, to invite you to engage with -- with books and -- and literature and the space.

And you just can't replicate that on a screen.

- Give me a little bit about the history before you were there.

How did Raven get it's start?

What were kind of their -- their key areas of -- of what they carried literature-wise?

- Sure.

Pat Kehde and Mary Lou Wright founded The Raven on September 1st, 1987.

They worked that summer building it up.

They were college friends who had a -- shared a love of mystery books and they reunited years later in Lawrence.

And at that point in the eighties -- in the late eighties there were a ton of specialty, independent bookstores downtown.

They didn't see a store that was focusing on mystery.

That was their passion.

They opened it up.

They had a really hard time getting banks to take them seriously.

They couldn't get a bank loan.

They did a really early version of what we would call crowdfunding today.

- [Jay] Okay.

- Small financing, refinancing one of their houses and they kind of scrabbled together the money because all the banks were like, this is two ladies selling mystery books.

This is a hobby.

So like, from the get-go, it's the -- kind of the world against The Raven and -- and big business versus these -- this small, feisty little bookstore.

- I -- how did they -- I mean -- how did they carve their way?

I mean, where did they find these other mystery -- mystery lovers?

- Well, it's -- I mean any -- any bookstore, I would argue, especially The Raven, you build a community.

You -- you dig deep, you create roots, you find a -- a niche and a role in your community.

And you just lean really hard into that.

The Raven has done that since day one.

They've built a community of readers and -- and authors, and that's the -- the formula for success for any small bookstore.

And they knew that from day one.

And they had that kind of feisty, activist spirit The Raven is proud to continue to this day.

But you know, the odds were kind of against The Raven from day one.

And then in 1997, 10 years after they opened just a -- a couple hundred feet from the front door, a Borders Book superstore opened.

But again, they had the community, they had their fighting spirit, they knew how to tell the story of small businesses and why they were important.

And so, of course they were able to make it where borders was not 'cause the entire chain shut down in 2011.

- Yeah.

I mean, they -- they outlasted.

- [Danny] Yep.

- And -- and with that Borders, I mean, you could probably physically space-wise fit three or four Ravens -- - Oh yeah.

- Inside that space.

- Maybe I - yeah, I think -- I don't remember the square footage of that Borders, but it was probably 10,000 square feet and The Raven was 1000, so it might even be 10 times -- 10 Ravens in there.

- Just in general, it seems -- I love Lawrence, love downtown, but they thrive on smaller businesses.

Moving a big - that big a chain down there just -- I -- I -- I never really saw it working -- - Yeah - but -- - Well, it was a fight.

And I mean the -- and The Raven was -- was very involved in the -- the discussion.

Some would say fight, some people called it the Borders' war.

A lot of people didn't want that superstore to open because they were worried about places like The Raven.

Eventually it did.

We know how that story ended -- but it -- I mean, it got hard for a while.

- [Jay] Mm-hmm.

- But -- but The Raven, they had the smarts to -- to outlast.

- And now you guys are on a bigger road to success so -- It's time for a short break.

When we return, we discuss what prompted The Raven to turn the page on their old location.

We'll be right back.

You're watching, Working Capital.

(upbeat techno music) Welcome back.

Okay, so Danny, new location, new ownership model; what spurred these -- these new dramatic shifts in the store?

- I don't know if you've heard, but it's been a pretty interesting last couple of years in terms of global events.

And so like every small business, we faced a bit of a crisis in March 2020.

Like I said before the break, the -- the bookstore model is based on people lingering and spending a long time and inviting people into our space.

And all of a sudden, within a matter of weeks, that became something very dangerous to do.

- [Jay] Mm-hmm.

- So we -- we had to do a quick pivot and -- and for me it was a priority all along to protect our book sellers and make sure The Raven is a safe place to work.

And so we decided to shut down and pivot to online book-selling only.

And we did that for a year, from March of 2020 to June of 2021, so a little bit more than a year.

And we functioned only through our website.

We had been building up our online presence, we'd been really working on our social media, we'd been getting a lot better at selling books online.

So as a coincidence, we were kind of ready to make that pivot quick, 'cause we had our website ready, we knew how to fulfill online orders.

And so we just closed the doors and we're like, we're online only now.

And we had spent so long explaining to our customers what we do, they were kind of ready to follow us and we're ever thankful for that.

So in that tiny, old space on Seventh Street, we had enough room to do it, if there were no customers in there.

If it was just book sellers in our space, we could do our like, online order fulfillment warehouse thing.

Because the footprint of an online order -- the physical footprint is a lot bigger than someone grabbing something off the shelf and walking -- 'cause you have boxes and scales and all that stuff.

So, we did it and it was great for a year because the community was so supportive, but eventually everybody on staff got vaccinated, things started to reopen and we kind of felt the -- the need and the desire to welcome people back into our space.

But then it's like, that space didn't really allow for our online operation and the in-store browsing.

So -- - 'Cause really that added another segment to your sales really.

- Right, yeah.

I mean -- - So why would you take it away.

- So before the pandemic, our online sales were 1% of our net sales.

During the pan -- during the peak of it when we were shut down, it was 100% -- - [Jay] Mm-hmm.

- or maybe 98 with 2% over the phone.

Now, it's 20 to 30%.

So it went back down, but it's nowhere close to pre-pandemic levels.

And that's a really important kind of supplement.

It's a really - I mean 30% is a huge part of your sales and you gotta build the business in a way to accommodate both online and in person.

And really early on I realized, there's no way we can do both in this space.

So we started to look around at the -- the storefronts on Mass and we went into 809, which was an ax-throwing place that had a fire -- an accidental fire.

They decided not to reopen, but when we saw it, it was totally gutted.

Like, we could see through the ceiling to the sky -- - [Jay] Oh geez.

- It was -- there was nothing in there, but we went in there with all of the book sellers and they just felt magic in the space.

They had beautiful original hardwood floors, they had a tin ceiling, the landlord promise to restore the ceiling and the floors, and to kind of preserve the historic nature of the space, which we loved.

And they really invited us into the planning process of that.

So we -- we could get in on ground one and the -- you know -- at the -- the first floor basically on building a space customized to our needs.

And that was really exciting for us.

So in August of 2019, we signed a letter of intent, spent the next year building it out and designing it.

And in August of last year, we moved into the new space, which is designed with a big back room for receiving and processing online orders and an expanded sales floor for that in-store browsing experience.

- And it really does still have that magic feel like you say, 'cause when you walked into it, the floors still kinda creak, beautiful hardwood, the light is coming through, places to sit down and read a book.

Cats still in there?

- [Danny] Yeah.

- [Jay] I mean - - [Danny] Yeah, one of our cats had to retire.

They -- she had some health issues.

She's thriving in a peaceful book seller's home now.

But Dashiell - we do still have a store cat.

And like, just the way our new space is addressing our needs -- like Dashiell sometimes gets in a bad mood.

He's a cat.

He decides he doesn't wanna deal with -- with people -- so now we can seal him in the back room where it's quiet and still, and he's not forced to be on the sales floor.

So like all of these little things, we had a chance to kind of customize and address these issues that we had in the old space.

Also you can get in the front door with a wheelchair or a stroller now.

You couldn't do that in the old space.

That was really important to us.

Our bathroom you can -- is ADA accessible.

So all of these -- we had a great opportunity because we were getting in at the beginning of the renovation process to address our needs in a really great way.

- And -- and since you are more compliant, I mean you were a community space, so really you can have more community in there.

- [Danny] Yeah.

I mean we -- it's -- I think it's really important for a bookstore to be accessible in all terms -- in all senses of that word.

- [Jay] I'd be interested to see here in a few years even how your online sales grow with people who love The Raven, 'cause they went to school at KU, but move away -- - [Danny] Yeah.

- But want to keep buying books from The Raven just -- just 'cause it's that nostalgia.

- Yeah.

I think uh - a big portion of our online audience is -- I call them Lawrence expats.

And it's those kind of people, you know, people who came to school here or who lived here and have moved on, but feel an immense loyalty to Lawrence, and The Raven in particular.

- Little briefly, give me why you switched your ownership model.

- Right, so I -- I've -- I've spent a lot of the last couple years -- another storyline in my last couple of years is being an advocate for small businesses and against Amazon.

And a lot -- a big part of my advocacy against Amazon is what they're trying to do to the nature of work.

And they're dangerous jobs, they're short term jobs, they have huge turnover, it's -- there's no privacy.

And so in spending all of my time researching what they're doing wrong, I spend a lot of time thinking about how to do it right.

And really, the more I thought about it, the more I thought employee ownership and some kind of profit sharing is -- is necessary to do it right.

The Raven is not just me.

I'm on TV talking about it, but we have a team of 17 book sellers, even more than me are why the store is successful and it is what it is.

And it's just a way to have them be economically and figuratively invested in the business that they're -- they're building and helping to thrive.

- You've created a great family there.

You've curated The Raven into an even brighter space, so congratulations, Danny.

- Thank you.

- [Jay] We -- we look forward to seeing more from The Raven.

- Thanks for having me.

- It's time for another short break.

When we return, New York Times' best selling author, Alex Grecian joins us.

Stay tuned.

You're watching Working Capital.

(upbeat techno music) - Welcome back.

From proof of a suit-wearing Sasquatch, to Nazi-hunters in Kansas, our next guest is a builder of worlds and characters in our imaginations.

Alex Grecian started his literary journey authoring graphic novels and is now a New York Times bestselling author.

Let's find out what it takes to author your own success.

Welcome to the show, Alex.

- Thanks for having me.

- So you have - you've had quite a string of books and graphic novels and just the way you create these worlds -- I mean you can tell you really have love and a passion.

You're just not someone who's -- who's gifted at typewriter.

Where did you catch -- (chuckling) this literary bug?

What - what was -- what were your favorite first books growing up that kind of -- - Oh wow.

- [Jay] led you down this path?

- Well, actually I -- I was a huge fan of James Herriot.

I don't know if you've heard of him, but he wrote, "All Creatures Great and Small," "All Things Wise and Wonderful."

He was a veterinarian who wrote books on the side that became best sellers.

And I wanted to do that too when I was a kid.

But in middle school they gave me a pig to dissect, and that's the point at which I decided I didn't wanna be a veterinarian.

And I just concentrated on -- on learning how to write.

- That's funny you say that.

That's kind of -- kind of one of my diversions in school too, keeping with the creative side was -- was actually pigs also.

And just -- - [Alex] Really?

- When I felt the scalpel hit the -- the bone, I could not take that at all.

- Yes - So I -- I'm kind of -- - Yes.

- Yeah, you learn your boundaries and -- - [Alex] Right.

- You stick with what you're great at so -- - I can write about that, but doing it -- - [Jay] Yes.

Yeah.

- It wasn't so much fun.

- Yeah.

So what -- what -- what was your first book published, whether you self-published it, which, you know, a lot of people do, which isn't -- isn't quite the level your other books are on, but what was the first work you put out?

- The -- I guess the first thing that was published was a comic book story that I wrote and drew and I sent it out to everybody I could think of.

And it was selected to be in an anthology of comic book stories along with Neil Gaiman and some other -- some other big people, so I thought I've arrived.

And then I disappeared for 10 years and -- (laughing) But that -- that was my first thing.

And then -- and I -- I discovered from that, that I shouldn't draw, I should just write.

I shouldn't be a veterinarian and I shouldn't be an artist.

I should just write.

- Now -- okay -- but you are a pretty -- I mean, you're still a pretty good illustrator and artist.

So when you -- when you had ideas for later graphic novels, did you have any sketches to help out the other -- the other illustrator or -- how -- how did you work as a team when you were working on those?

- Well actually, yeah -- I -- I tried to break into the comic book field as an artist and writer at the same time.

And I was in line to talk to an editor and show him my portfolio.

And the guy in front of me was a lot shorter than I am, And I could see his art over his shoulder.

He was showing his art to the editor and he was so much better than I was that I got his name and -- and contact info.

And then we ended up working together.

We were both rejected by that editor, but then we went on to make "Proof" and "Rasputin" and we're still great friends.

- And let's talk a little bit about those two -- those two books.

"Proof" is kind of a - a cool, really cool concept -- - [Alex] Oh, thanks.

- dealing with this - dealing with a Sasquatch, but -- - [Alex] It's kind of silly, but -- - [Jay] Silly, but no -- I mean -- (laughing) "X-Files" kind of um -- oh, I forget the one that ran forever that was set here in Kansas -- the -- anyways -- but it -- people love that kind of mystery and almost on the edge of horror, but having a -- a Sasquatch working for the government, searching out other -- other crypto zool -- zoological events and all, I mean, where did you come up with that kind of idea?

I mean, how -- how many characters do you always have kind of in your head that you're -- that you're playing around with?

- I -- you know -- ideas, um -- you can't prepare for them.

They just come out of everywhere and you have to catch 'em when they come.

And in that case, I was at dinner with friends and we were talking about whether Bigfoot was real or not.

And everybody's pretty skeptical, including me.

But one of my friends said, the reason we can't find Bigfoot is 'cause the government has him under wraps.

And I thought, oh, what if he works for the government?

And so -- and that's -- and I ran that by Riley Rossmo, who is the guy I saw at the convention -- whose art I saw and he liked the idea and so we just started making it.

- And another book -- I -- I -- I think I first saw the book actually at Comic Con 'cause you -- you were there with -- with a few of your books there -- but "Rasputin."

So you took someone from history who some people see as so evil.

Some people see as misunderstood.

How do you create a life around an actual character who lived in real life for that kind of graphic novel?

Did you still do any research for that?

'Cause I know -- - [Alex] Oh.

- [Jay] you are awesome at doing research for all your books and creating these -- these worlds.

So, what kind of research did you do in the beginning?

- Well, right.

I've -- I've always been fascinated by Rasputin.

I've always wanted to do something with him.

So I've -- I've got a lot of books about Rasputin at home, in my office.

And with everything I do, the research is the most fun part, right?

The book I just finished writing is a Western horror novel.

And so I spend an entire week learning how Wells Fargo coaches used to be made and you know, all -- all the schematics of a -- a Wells Fargo coach, which was different from other wagons, just for one paragraph in the book.

But it's fun.

Now I know.

You know, it took 12 oxen to make the springs for a Wells Fargo coach.

- And -- and now with your new novels, I mean, that's really what you're gettin' - gettin' known for.

The characters -- I mean, even the tertiary characters on the edges, people relate to 'em, they know them.

But just -- just the way you describe the settings and bringing -- bring them into the world.

- Oh, that's kind of you.

- So it's been -- it's been great so -- It's time for another short break.

Stick around for another chapter.

We'll be right back.

(upbeat techno music) Welcome back to Working Capital.

Okay, Alex.

So, you're writing a book.

What -- what's -- What's your pro - - Usually.

- What's your process?

After doing the research, and you're getting chapter by chapter, you know, into it -- do you have people that are reviewing the chapters as you go to make sure, you know, it's coherent and -- and the same vision as you felt you were writing -- what does that process entail?

- Oh Lord, that would be terrible.

My -- my books are a mess until I go back and revise them.

No, I -- I do what's called a "vomit draft," which means I just write.

I get up every day, I try for a thousand words each day and I write chapters all out of order and then I assemble it.

I -- I say it's kind of like painting a jigsaw puzzle piece by piece, not knowing what the picture's going to be and then trying to assemble it and make sense of it.

So it can be maddening, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody else from a reading standpoint.

But so yeah, I do that.

Then I assemble it and I -- I revise it all.

Make sure it makes sense, Usually get rid of a character or two and whittle it down.

Usually I get rid of about a third of the book before I do anything else with it.

- With the novels, once -- once you get them finished, and they're to the publisher, how do you guys decide on the artwork, the -- and even -- you've showed me this now -- as you go into other international markets, I mean, you kinda gotta decide on different titles on occasion just for the market you're fitting.

- Right.

- How does the business side work for -- for an author?

I -- I know it's probably not your favorite part of it by any means but -- - No.

(chuckling) - How does that work with -- with that?

- Well, you know, the best relationship I have in my career and always have had is with my agent and my agent handles most of that stuff.

Because once you send the book out, you've got copy editors, you've got designers, I've got my editor, marketing people, sales people, book sellers.

There's a whole raft of people who come on after all the lonely slog of writing a book, all of a sudden you're -- you're thrown into the water of people.

But so -- so my agent is sort of my shield in all of that and handles a lot of those decisions.

But I do get a say in the cover arts and the jacket copy and all of that stuff that I don't actually do, but -- but I -- I get to approve.

- Do you ever give them little sketches like I -- like something sort of like this?

No?

- No.

- Not doing that anymore?

- No, no, no.

They're much better than I am at that.

- Speaking of that -- 'cause I've seen some of your drawings and all, I mean, do you suffer from imposter syndrome sometimes?

- Every day.

Yes.

- Because I -- I -- I hear a lot of really good, creative people still suffer with that and it really kind of makes them better in a way.

I mean, are you able to harness that?

- It would be nice to think it makes me better, but yeah -- I don't know.

I -- I think about it a lot.

It happens gradually.

You -- you work so hard to break in and stay in that sometimes it's -- it takes like a step back to realize how fortunate I am and you know, I have everything that I wanted when I was a kid and then here it is, so -- - So in your writing career, where was the big break?

- The big break was with my book, "The Yard."

I had -- I was doing a comic book series -- "Proof" about Bigfoot in a suit and I decided to spin-off a character who was a policeman in the Victorian era, into his own comic book series.

And Image Comics was gonna publish it.

And then DC comics wanted to publish it.

So I had two publishers and I had met a literary agent's assistant who wanted to be an agent.

And he looked at the pitch for the comic book series and said, you know, if you write this as a novel, I think I could sell it 'cause I'm gonna be an agent someday, and that would be a good one to sell.

So I canceled "Proof" and I took a huge gamble and spent a year writing "The Yard" and sent it to him, and by then he had become a full agent.

And two weeks later there was a bidding war for the book and it became a best seller.

So, I'm the luckiest guy in the world, but -- - Serendipity at work.

And -- and after "The Yard," I mean that is now a series.

There's -- - Right.

There are five.

- Five total.

- Right.

- Any -- any others wor -- any other from that series working around your head still, maybe in the future?

- There will be a sixth book, but I changed publishers, and so obviously a new publisher doesn't want to continue a series from an old publisher.

- Yes.

- So I -- I have a new series I'm working on, which is horror.

And at some point I'll -- I'll go back and finish off the -- "The Murder Squad" series.

- And -- and we know you're -- you're working on this new book, which we won't -- we won't try to press you too much about that, but let's talk a little bit about your -- your "Saint of Wolves and Butchers," since it is set here in Kansas.

- It's set in Kansas, yeah.

- So where was the inspiration for this?

- I have -- I've always wanted to do one set in Kansas.

You know, I -- I ended up in London for five books, never having been there until after I wrote the second book, but I wanted to set something in Kansas because the research is a lot easier.

I can just drive out to wherever I wanna set something.

At least that's what I thought.

It turned out to be just as hard to research.

- It's not a normal job, where you're getting your paycheck every week.

- [Alex] No.

- So -- so for those out there who are looking at this kind of creative field, how do you -- how do you manage, you know, how do you manage that flow and maybe the down times when you're just writing and not -- not have a lot coming in?

- In terms of -- - Like when you're starting out.

- Oh, yeah.

It -- it takes a lot to start out.

And it's really nice if you have a -- a spouse or a loved one or a significant other of some sort who has a good job and believes in you, because the first thing you have to do is write a whole book and that takes a while.

And you're not making money while you're doing that.

But I was very luck -- my wife believes in me and had a good job, so she supported me while I -- I wrote "The Yard."

- Well, congratulations on all the success so far.

- [Alex] Thank you.

- And we look forward to new adventures in the future.

- Thank you very much.

- Well, that's a wrap for tonight's show.

I'd like to thank Danny Kane from The Raven bookstore, along with author, Alex Grecian for joining us on Working Capital.

If you know of an interesting business or management technique, we want to hear from you.

So give us a call, drop us an email, or send us a letter.

We look forward to hearing from you.

We'll see you next time and thanks for watching.

It's all about business.

And you've been watching Working Capital.

(upbeat techno music) - [Narrator] Additional funding is provided by the friends of KTWU.