Lakeland Currents, your public affairs program for north central Minnesota.

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Hello again friends.

I'm Jason Edens, your host of Lakeland Current.

Thanks for joining the conversation and thanks for your ongoing support of Lakeland Public TV.

We can't do justice to many of our conversations in a single episode which is why we'll be continuing our important conversation today about post-traumatic stress.

As I said last week service men and women across the country make huge sacrifices for our communities and our country however that can exact a significant and real personal toll often in the form of post-traumatic stress.

My guest today will help us better understand post-traumatic stress and how we deal with it or don't deal with it at a societal level.

Having starred in dozens of films and TV shows over a career spanning decades Michael Grier is an accomplished actor.

However that is not why he is with us here today.

Michael is the director of a newly released documentary entitled, "Wounded Heroes" about alternative and potentially effective treatments and therapies for those folks wrestling with PTS.

Michael is joined by two of the heroes featured in his documentary, Tammy and Mike who both operate Saddles in Service, an equine therapy non-profit specifically for folks dealing with PTS.

I'd like to welcome all three of you to the program and thank you so much for making time today.

[our pleasure] [thank you] Michael, I want to start with you.

What exactly is the origin story of "Wounded Heroes"?

What inspired you to make this?

Michael: Well I had planned to make a different film and I was interviewing veterans because it was also a military topic and brass, military brass but I met a guy in San Diego named Carl and he was a veteran, he was a medic battling post-traumatic stress.

He was on 16 different prescription medications down from 18 and that was shocking to me, that somebody could be in his 20s and be on that many medications and even worse he said it wasn't really helping.

It was just pushing back the symptoms, more of a band-aid but not solving the problem of post-traumatic stress so that set me off on a three-year journey because I figured there had to be better options and we found great treatments and programs that we feature in the film that definitely do help get rid of post-traumatic stress.

Jason: So Michael one of the things that you mentioned throughout your documentary is there's a risk of over-medicating folks that have been grappling with PTS.

What evidence do you have of that?

Michael: Well it's when I went up and started producing this film other than talking to Carl I didn't really realize you know just how bad it was.

It's all the different veterans that I interviewed all over the country without me even asking, they talked about how they were over medicated.

It's all the veterans I talked to who said I won't go and get help because I don't want to be medicated and so instead you know many of them self-medicate whether it's alcohol or other means but it's the veterans.

You know they said they had post-traumatic stress.

They were given some prescriptions which then caused some side effects which caused more prescriptions to help with the side effects and it kind of snowballs from there to where they said it ended up making things worse for them.

You couldn't even one guy couldn't even walk out of his house to check the mail and it's just been hearing what they say is the problem when they go and sit in front of a psychiatrist.

Not that the psychiatrist is necessarily doing anything wrong in the sense of that's what they're trying to do, talk to you, find out what the issue is and help you with medication.

That's what they're trained to do.

It's just that many of these medications are black labeled which is the worst type of label the FDA puts on a medication because the side effects are so strong.

Somebody who has suicidal tendency or depression may be put on a medication that the side effect is suicide and depression so when they're getting worse it may not be because of their post-traumatic stress.

It may literally be because of the medications they've been put on and you know she's just got to be very careful with with the medications and the film is not anti-medication per se.

We are anti-psychotic medications since so many veterans and doctors have been talking about in the film that it doesn't help.

It actually creates a bigger problem.

Jason: You know you just mentioned a term that I wasn't familiar with before watching the documentary which was black label.

Can you quickly define that for us please?

Michael: Just that it's a label that the FDA puts on as a warning to us consumers letting us know that it's a very serious drug and it has the potential to have very serious side effects, so beware.

So that's what it means, beware, black label beware.

Do your due diligence.

Don't just take it because the doctor prescribed it.

You know you need to have informed consent so be informed.

Know what you're taking and go on to a website like drugs.com, put in the medication.

It'll list all the different side effects, what it's used for and they have an interaction checker so that if you're taking multiple medications put those in and find out how they interact with with each other because the interactions can cause problems.

Jason: The contraindications, sure.

You know many of the therapies that are discussed in your documentary are addressed by credentialed folks within the military so my next question for you Michael is are these therapies approved by veterans affairs for example or the department of defense?

Michael: So they are starting to accept some of these, like Stellate Ganglion Block, SGB, that is used in the military currently and in VA's across the country.

RTM, Reconsolidation of Traumatic Memories, ART, Accelerated Resolution Therapy.

Both of those are now just coming into the VA which is great news because they are, they're so beneficial and there's like it said the VA in different parts of the country do other things like helping people to get outdoors, doing the horse therapy, going sailing, golfing, archery, all these things that help people battling post-traumatic stress get some relief.

Jason: Mike I'd like to ask a question of you.

This is obviously a personal story for you.

You've served in the military for more than 20 years is my understanding and I was wondering if you'd be willing to share a little bit about that?

Mike: Sure Jason.

I'm 25 years active duty.

I retired as a navy captain, 2016, just 5 years ago and I progressed through those 25 years through a multitude of jobs starting out as a surface warfare officer on a cruiser a ship on Long Beach then I ended up becoming an intelligence officer and there's many things you can do as an intelligence officer and that's what attracted me to it so you could be an analyst, you can be what we call a collector, who's out there gathering the information to help it's the forces you're serving with so a lot of variety.

I ended up getting kind of dovetailed through choice and opportunity to be a human intelligence expert where I was out both in combat zones and non-combat zones developing human sources to address whatever the information requirements were at the tactical operational strategic and national levels so looking back on you know at least I think what happened towards the end as, as I getting ready to retire and what I wanted to do.

My wife had seen some changes in me over the years.

I, I wasn't going to admit that I had PTS.

I ended up being diagnosed by the the VA with PTS as I was transitioning out and a lot of what I learned about it then because I think a lot of us were type A personalities.

You try to address it yourself.

Michael mentioned it.

I knew I didn't want to take drugs and when I spoke with a doctor, a psychiatrist, I mean within the first 15 minutes of the meeting he was offering anti-depressant drugs, anti-anxiety drugs and I said, hey I appreciate it.

I think I'd like to try some other programs so cognitive behavioral therapy I was already, we had transitioned out.

Bought some properties.

I wanted to get away from, from the cities and crowds because that's what I was dealing with, a lot of I had a lot of anxiety, anger issues, panic attacks.

I think it was brought on or I know it was brought on by those high stress jobs that I had where I was always looking over my shoulder, always waiting for the other foot to drop and so the horse, horses to us was a personal thing.

I just wanted to be a cowboy.

If I told her to bring when I was getting ready to retire and then my wife saw, Tammy saw what it did for me and she said she's always had a heart of service.

It's our family does this.

We have a son who's a police officer or a daughter-in-law who's an ICU nurse, another son who's trying to be hired as a firefighter, etc.

so she always wanted to give back and she saw what it did for me and she said, hey mike we need to do this.

We need to start this non-profit because it's working for you and we can help other people.

Jason: So Tammy tell us about Saddles in Service and the origin story of your non-profit organization.

Tammy: Like Mike said, when he retired we bought some property out here to retire on.

It already was set up for horses so that was kind of a plus and the days actually two days before his retirement ceremony someone had told me about some rescued horses that needed to find homes and so I was on it.

That next morning I was there.

I rescued the last two horses and brought them home and I think Mike thought I was crazy.

He's like we have like hundreds of people or over 100 people flying in from all over the world tomorrow and you're bringing in horses and they were pretty much the hit of the retirement.

I've got to say they they were the hit.

Poor Mike but you know and I saw you know how the horses were helping Mike because his horse that I rescued for him had been abandoned and so it had all this anxiety.

It had all this fear and to watch them work together you know it's like a little dance with a human and a horse and to watch him work with this horse and bond with this horse and they kind of I don't know they felt some of the same anxieties.

It was amazing and um and so I knew, I knew I wanted to do this.

I knew I wanted to rescue horses and then rehabilitate them which was also good for Mike because now he's focused on helping these horses rehabilitate and find a new purpose right?

Like a lot of these guys and girls coming out of the military with post-traumatic stress.

It's like they need to find purpose again and so you know the the combination with the horse, it's just an amazing thing and then you know we had a friend call us and say, hey can you please help my brother and she was in tears begging us to help him and we weren't ready at all and Mike you know he said, I hope you told him we're not ready?

I go yeah I did but when they showed up and I saw Mike and Joe working with the horse and the commonalities they had and how you know Mike said, oh where were you in Afghanistan and how they had been in some of the same places and to see that camaraderie and around the horse and now a love of a horse.

Like it's just a beautiful thing and it's so great for these guys to really have that camaraderie all around a horse.

Jason: Mike, how common do you think your experience is?

Now I understand that you had a very unique experience in the military but just generally speaking how common is PTS among your peers who have served like you?

Mike: I would say it's more common than people would want to know or want to admit even themselves.

Like I said I, I didn't think I was going through PTS.

I made a [inaudible] in the documentary that hey I'm the toughest guy.

I know I think we're all like that and it's it's really PTS doesn't just affect the individual.

It's affecting the people around them whether it's their families, their, their friends, their co-workers so I think it's there.

I know talking with my peers, people who are still serving and people who've gotten out they all have you know some piece of a symptom to it.

I when I look at and dissect in my mind I think like some of the most common ones is trust issues, anger anxiety, guilt for something you did or didn't do, depression and in a bigger picture Jason if I may I might Michael kind of came to this conclusion when he started looking at veterans.

They said hey there's other people suffering from PTS, police, firefighters, first responders.

PTS I think affects everybody.

It's a you know it could be a traumatic event in your life.

It could be the loss of a loved one, a child, you know a spouse, whatever and I think a lot of things that we do in society as people is we, we just push that stuff down either because we're too busy and we don't have time to deal with it and then it just mounts up.

We're too proud.

We just don't know any better.

We just think hey that's the way it's supposed to be.

My dad, I'm not saying my dad was but you know my dad was a heavy drinker and beat us and so that's you know normal for me to be a heavy drinker and you know yell at my kids or whatever.

It's not normal so a long answer to I think your question is I think it's more common than people know or wanted to admit.

Jason: You know one of the things I wanted to explore with the three of you is whether or not there's actually a goal post?

In other words can we actually help those folks that are wrestling with PTS find a cure or can PTS be something that's actually in the rear view mirror and if so can equine therapy facilitate that?

Tammy: I think when we're, when we're introducing these guys and girls to these horses they're finding a piece inside themselves.

They're learning about themselves through the horse.

They're they really are finding out more about themselves, who they really are or who they once were, who they want to be and you know when they're with the horse they have to be in the moment and a lot of people with post- traumatic stress you know they're reliving past events or they're worrying about future stressors right and so the more they're with the horse the more they're able to be in the present and so the hope is there's another you know little resource in their toolbox to help them when they are experiencing maybe a moment that they might feel anxious or anger.

Well you know what?

Let me get in the moment here.

Let me, let me, let me step back for a second and horses can help teach that and that's why I think it's so important for a program like equine therapy that it's a continuous program because the more you practice it the more you're going to be able to utilize it when you need it so that's my, that's my thoughts on it.

Mike: Very, very similar.

I would just add that I think it's a an individual journey for each person depending on the severity of their their PTS and what caused it and just how they're made up.

You know I think I'm definitely not a medical expert or a psychiatrist or whatever but echo what Tammy said.

Sometimes having that focus or that purpose even if you're having a bad day or your you had you know night terrors the night before it gives you something to look forward to that day.

We hear it time and time again from the heroes that we serve when they come out on a day they're like hey you know I've been thinking about coming here all week you know so it's a positive thought.

They were like going through tough times, either in life or work or whatever but they had, they had that light at the end of the tunnel, whether it's working with the horses like Michael said, whether it's going hiking, mountain, some type of recreational therapy.

It doesn't have to be something specific like a drug or talking to someone.

It can just be being out here by yourself with the horse and spending some time just to gather your thoughts and put all the bad thoughts behind.

Jason: Michael the question for you, in your documentary "Wounded Heroes" you feature a wide variety of therapies and I'm curious of those therapies how many would be appropriate if someone is in a particularly acutely challenging situation?

As we know a lot of service members have taken their own lives and of course you discuss that in your documentary so how many of these therapies that you're exploring are appropriate for folks that are really in an acutely challenging situation, on the brink if you will?

Michael: And that's a good and that's a great question and that kind of goes along with your last question that Mike and Tammy just answered.

As far as is there a way to get it in the rear view mirror so for me the answer is absolutely yes.

Post-traumatic stress can be gone out of your life.

I've seen it with all the veterans.

Many of them that I've talked about across the country but it depends upon that individual as Mike said, what they need and where they are at?

For somebody who's really in a difficult place SGB would probably be the best place to start because SGB is a simple 10-minute procedure.

It's a shot in the neck, just numbs a cluster of nerves but it will get a person who is just ramped up and could not sit and talk to anybody or I met a guy before the shot.

His, he looked like a wild animal.

I mean I wouldn't get too close to him because he kind of scared me to be honest but you know he, there's no way he could have sat, gone to horses or done, done anything because he was such in a bad place.

After that simple 10-minute procedure he was relaxed, he was back to normal, he hadn't been outside in years his wife said.

First thing he said was, I can't wait to go shopping.

You know and so someone like him in that really bad place would need to do that just to get to a place then where he can be relaxed enough to take advantage of other follow-up things like horse therapy or a week-long program or RTM and ART and then my second option would be ART as I just said or RTM.

They're really good for solving the problem of post-traumatic stress and quickly because... Jason: You remind us what's ART?

I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt.

Michael: No please acronyms are a little bit dizzying.

Yeah, Accelerated Resolution Therapy and then RTM is Reconsolidation of Traumatic Memories.

They're both similar because they're a neurological intervention.

They go about it differently but the outcome is the same and what's great about them is when you have a memory, for many people battling post-traumatic stress it's something.

There's a lot that comes back with a lot of emotion.

You can feel the heat from the explosion.

I mean there's just it's very traumatic on you every time you remember it or you're up all night dreaming about it.

They can literally neurologically going through a very simple process, 45 minutes and it takes on average you know two to six sessions.

It's very affordable and it can be done via zoom which is great but they sever the emotion with the memory so now veterans can talk about what they experience but they no longer have any of the emotion or the trauma associated with it which is very friendly.

It allows them to sleep it allows them to live a normal life and it allows them to get post-traumatic stress behind them.

Jason: When I was watching the documentary one of the things that occurred to me is that equine therapy might seem exclusive or unaffordable to, to vets grappling with PTS?

Is this something that is supported by the VA for example or what's your fee schedule?

Tammy: So for us we there's no charge.

We charge nothing to the veteran or first responder.

It's completely free of charge.

I can't say for other equine therapies across the nation but yeah for us it's, it's completely free.

[and the VA] Yeah, and the VA has contacted us just recently and they are recommending us as one of their recreational therapies which there are grants from the VA that we can apply to that can help offset the costs and so because yeah, it's free.

It's free for all of our veterans and purposes.

Michael: A lot of expense for you guys though which people need to realize.

There is a cost you have to cover and so that's why it's important that there are so many people out there that do support organizations like yours because that allows you then to make it at no cost to those who need it.

Jason: Absolutely.

Mike I was wondering if you could tell us the story of another veteran who has benefited from Saddles in Service?

There are several of course in the documentary.

Mike: David, I'll just, I'll just use his first name.

Vietnam veterans you think about, the times and especially how they were treated afterwards.

He was a 19 year old green beret you know just plucked from El Cajon, California and sent over to Vietnam, you know intense tour of duty over there, came back, society with the you know the veterans at that time not as supportive as they have been you know for us which is, just amazes me how well veterans are treated now and it's a great thing to see and David.

His story began before us and, and so with horses I mean and so we were lucky he came on but his story is that he, he was basically you know medicated, over medicated, kind of you know lost purpose you know no matter what he tried to do and he was on the verge of taking his own life and just ended up luckily I think through some friends that had horses.

I think he was actually staying with him or sleeping in the barn and he just started spending time with the horses because that's who he could deal with.

Those horses became his friends and became his support you know, system and gave him purpose so he wanted to learn how to give back to the horses and over the years he became an exquisite horseman and then you know flash forward however many years we run into him in an event and he heard about us and he said I want to help you know my brothers and sisters and I need to talk to you and what can I do to help so I think that's specifically with the Vietnam vet.

That's how horses and he'll say it and I think he said it in the documentary, horses saved my life.

If he hadn't found horses he wouldn't be here and more recently the one that we were just going to talk about was yeah, I'll let Tammy talk about if it's okay Jason but more recent example of a person who's active, active duty.

Tammy: Yes, yes we have an active duty personnel who sought us out over social media.

He came out, he's, he's ridden horses in the past so he knows horses.

He knows the benefits of horses and so he came out to do the program but also to help his fellow brothers and sisters in arms, right and he's been out here now about two and a half months and I'll see him off riding a horse and it's just him and the horse because we do have trails on our property and I'll see him sitting on you know at the top of the hill on his horse just looking out over the mountains and the view and he wrote on a social media post last week saying, if it wasn't for Saddles in Service he wouldn't be here today writing this, that he was in such a dark place when he found us he was ready to end his own life and one of his buddies had just committed suicide two weeks before he contacted us and I think you know for him he was having a hard time understanding why, what went into that and his depression just really got to him as well and so these horses make a difference.

I mean if, if I can tell anyone you know if you're, if you're worried about going somewhere with horses.

A lot of people are scared of them because they're big animals but go, just touch a horse, pet a horse.

I mean they're, they're really doing a lot for our veterans and first responders.

Jason: Remarkable creatures indeed, so Michael as the director I know that this whole process has been somewhat epiphanial for you and as we've all discussed already this is not something that's limited to service men and women so Michael I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how PTS is experienced by first responders and some of the feedback you've been receiving from that community?

Michael: When I started this project I thought post-traumatic stress was just a military thing, not realizing it could happen to all of us and because our first responders and now our doctors and nurses as well do covid, you know they're, they see a lot of traumatic things, they experience traumatic events and they see them, witness them on a regular basis and that takes its toll and there's a very high suicide rate among them as well, which is very sad and so I'm now connected with fire chiefs, police chiefs all over the country here, Canada and other places and hearing their stories, the amount of suicides within their own departments or the people they know around them and, and what's great are the different treatments and programs featured in Wounded Heroes are beneficial for anybody that is battling post-traumatic stress and so that's very exciting that we can help so many.

Jason: So from a very practical perspective what do you propose doing in terms of getting some of these alternative therapies or different therapies in front of the Department of Defense or the Veterans Affairs, Department of Veterans Affairs?

How are you trying to elevate awareness above and beyond the documentary itself?

Michael: Well I've connected right now because of the film to people at the very top of our military, I mean the very, very top and right now they just probably are either finishing a meeting or we're still in the meeting with the top congressman right now talking about one of the things on the agenda is talking about the film so I've got a lot of major leaders, names that everybody knows that now know about the film and they're finding ways on how they can implement it, get it out and best use it for the benefit of of the military in that case.

Jason: Well Mike, I'd like to close with a question for you.

I'm curious for those vets who have had a similar experience as yours and may not have acknowledged that they're experiencing PTS, what advice would you give to those folks, that community of people?

Mike: You know listen to your heart but more importantly if you have a support network, family, friends.

You know, don't just dismiss what they're saying.

When they say, hey you've changed, you know you're different, whether it's, whether they deliver that message in a confrontational, you know, angry way or are they saying out of you know love, that hey, something's going on.

I would say you know listen to them and give it a chance.

Don't dismiss it and you know like Michael was saying there are so many different options.

You can talk to a counselor, you can see a psychiatrist, you know some medication might be appropriate.

Don't try to deal with it by yourself.

I guess that's the other advice I'd give them.

Don't do it alone.

I, I think that a lot of these the, the individuals that end up taking their own lives it's because they don't think they're trying to handle it alone and not realizing that there's people out there that care enough, you know to spend three years to try to get the word out or put our heart and soul into helping other people.

Just ask for help.

That's what you need to do.

That, that's the advice I'd give.

Ask for help.

Jason: Well Mike and Tammy I want to thank you not only for joining me today but also for the important work that you do at Saddles in Service.

Thank you so much for sharing your story.

I appreciate it.

Tammy: Thank you for having us and thank you for getting the word out.

Mike: Thank you, Jason.

Jason: Michael, I really appreciate you sharing the documentary with me and I look forward to continuing our conversation.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

[my pleasure] And thank you all for joining me once again.

I'm Jason Edens, your host of Lakeland Currents.

Be kind.

Be well.

We'll see you next week.