[♪♪♪] -♪ Every day every day Ev ery day every day every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ [♪♪♪] -Welcome.

I'm Rose Martin, and we are Write Around The Corner in Bryson City, North Carolina with Annette Saunooke Clapsaddle.

She's a member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and her debut novel, Even As We Breathe , was a finalist for the Weatherford Award and named one of NPR's Best Books of 2020.

In 2021, it received the Thomas Wolfe Memorial Literary Award.

The story begins as World War II is raging in Europe and a young 19-year-old boy, Cowney, is going to go to the Grove Park Inn to work as a groundskeeper.

His life begins to unravel as he's accused of abduction and murder, and has to face amazing betrayal and solve some mysteries at home.

Join us as we meet Annette and find out all about Even As We Breathe .

Annette, welcome to Write Around The Corner .

-Thank you, Rose.

I'm happy to be here.

-We are so excited to have you.

And so, I need to ask you, not only are you a member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, but you're the first enrolled member of them to publish a novel.

-That's right.

I can't believe it, can you?

-That's fantastic.

Well, I can believe it 'cause I've read the book.

-Well, I think they just took way too long, though, that, you know, I am excited and honored to be the first novelist from my tribe.

But I really wish I wasn't.

And I hope that I'm not the only one for very long.

-Well, I'm sure you are inspiring so many along the way, because I know that you're a teacher.

So, have they been on that journey with you to this publishing process?

-Yeah, that's really been the best part of the whole process.

Back before the book was published, really back before I had a complete manuscript, I was talking to my students about the writing process.

And, you know, going back, gosh, maybe about three or four years now, talking to students about what it's like to query agents, for example.

So, I often will set up my classes around the process.

I would get an email, for example, from an agent I'd queried.

I wouldn't open it until I was in front of my class and would say, "Let's see what we've got."

So more than anything, they learned what it's like to feel that rejection, and then to learn from it and move forward with the process.

Luckily, there were finally groups of students that got to see some success in the process.

And even through the editing process, I think, was a great learning experience for them.

-Well, one of the sweetest things that I read or heard was that one of your former students, you've gotten a lot of accolades for this book, and a lot of people have come forward and said how great it is.

But there was one in particular, a student who made a pretty compelling, I think, compliment to you.

What was that?

-Yeah.

I always-- I get a little nervous when I tell this story, because it always makes me want to cry.

So, this is too early on for me to start crying.

But I had a student, Colby Taylor, who was a senior when I got the book contract.

And so, that group of students was in their freshman year, where they were in their freshman year of college, when the book came out.

That was really neat because they would take pictures of getting the book and let me know when they finished reading it.

And I received a text message from Colby's mom, whom I also know kind of outside of being Colby's teacher.

And she shared a screenshot of the conversation she had with her son about the book.

And it said something to the effect of, "Mama, I've never read a character that I could identify with before."

And, you know, that is really the whole purpose for me of putting literature like this out that, that my students, that my community can finally see themselves on the shelves and in classrooms.

It's just a real honor.

So that was the best compliment that I could get for this.

-And I think that one's gonna live with you, right?

And I get goosebumps when I heard that.

I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what a way to be the best compliment ever by someone who it means so much to you."

And for the reasons that you do this, right?

-Yeah.

-So, let's go back a few years.

So, you are a young reader.

You wrote your first book in second grade, right, about a Maine lighthouse or something like that.

-[chuckling] Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

You've done your research, right?

Yeah.

For as long as I can remember, I've written stories.

I had great English teachers, elementary through high school and college.

And I remember being committed to writing a novel like a substantial work.

So, I had a pink journal, it's probably about that thick.

And I started writing about a lighthouse in Maine.

-Have you ever been to Maine?

-Well, I have, but not when I was writing that book.

It was long after.

-Right.

-And I'm not sure why I was fascinated with Maine.

But I quickly realized, I didn't know what to say about that experience.

I didn't know what that place felt like.

And I didn't know the stories connected with the place.

-Well, and places, there's something that I know it's so important to you, in everything that you write, in almost in the life experience that you have.

So, you get an offer, and you go to Yale.

And so, you're doing that, and you're graduating, and you had some really influential professors.

And I think there's one in particular, who told you what the best gift is you can give back?

-Sure.

Yeah.

-Which is what you're doing now.

Right?

-Absolutely.

I had, actually it was even before I started classes, it was when I first got onto campus, the chair of the Education Department and the teacher prep program.

And when my mom questioned him why I would go to Yale and then become a teacher, he said, "That's the best thing you can do with a world class education is to share it with other people."

And that's definitely stuck with me, whether I'm in a classroom or not.

I think sharing experience, sharing what you learn, you know, is the best thing that you can do with education.

There's no sense in keeping it to yourself.

-And though that did kind of turn on you, though, when you went to William and Mary, right?

When you tried to share what you knew about Native people, and that really didn't turn out the way you had thought it would be, right?

-[chuckles] That's right.

I had an interesting experience.

You know, being from a community that people research a lot, and you get a different experience in the classroom.

You know, I come to the subject of Turkey history and culture with a lived experience and an academic experience.

I do study as well.

But when I brought up a point, one day in class, about the meaning of something.

-It was Booger Dance, I think?

-Yeah, yep.

Yep.

The background of the Booger Dance, I had a professor who had written extensively on it, upset that I disagreed with his perspective on it.

So yeah, the lowest grade I received in graduate school was in an American Indian history course.

-That I read, and then I'm like, "No, I'm going to ask her if that's absolutely true."

-It's absolutely true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And at that point, I was confident enough in myself to just kind of laugh.

That's just kind of the way it is.

And well, maybe I'll do my own writing.

[chuckles] -Yeah.

Well, and that confidence in yourself came about through years of formation.

I mean, from your parents and your grandparents, like your grandma was a really strong woman.

And same thing with your grandfather, the first chief?

-Not the first chief, but he was a two-term chief for our tribe, Osley Bird Saunooke, and his wife Bertha Saunooke served on our tribal council as a representative for over 25 years.

Both very strong figures in our community, did some revolutionary work for the Eastern Band.

So yeah, I definitely have big shoes to fill in terms of ancestors, even on both sides.

All the women in my family on my mother's and father's side have sought education, higher education, and worked outside of the home in times where it was very unusual for women to pursue careers.

So, I'm fortunate to be kind of bolstered by that history.

-And I was struck by the event at your grandmother's funeral that impacted you so much.

Share that story.

-Yeah.

You have done your research.

Man!

Yeah, I was-- my grandmother passed away when I think I just turned 13.

And they're-- so there like two connected stories, actually, right before she passed away, my aunt passed away, her daughter.

And at my aunt's funeral, I remember they put the, you know, they sprinkle the dirt from the grave and they say dust to dust, that verse.

And just as they did that, this huge gust of wind blew through, which is just like my Aunt Pat.

She was a huge gust of wind.

And I, you know, I just felt at peace in that moment, knowing that she kind of showed up.

And then at my grandmother's funeral, there was the most beautiful sunset I have ever seen after her funeral.

And it has reappeared in really special moments that I would connect with her in general.

So, I think that, you know, if we just pay attention, all of these reminders of loved ones are always around us.

-What about the one who they put the arrows or something off of her chest?

-Sure.

Sure.

So, it's not unusual to symbolize warriors returning home, you know, to the afterlife by crossing two arrows on their chest to be buried with.

And that was, that's what they did for my grandmother.

-That had to be so impactful as a young girl to see that because you had grown up with these strong women that, you know, you knew were, you know, warriors or fighters standing up strong and making such an impact on the community.

I'm sure you've taken that with you to be like, you know, I'm carrying the torch now.

-Yeah, absolutely.

I've never.

I've never had reason to question whether my voice should be heard or not as a woman.

There may be times where certainly we all have self-doubt, and you deal in a man's world sometimes and you question.

But it doesn't take me long to remember that the women in my life have set a standard.

There's a joke about my grandmother Saunooke that she was in town here in Bryson City and was on one side of the street and another council member, a gentleman, was on the other side of the street.

And the story is that she was so influential that she looked across the street at the guy, and just kind of raised your chin to nod, you know, hello.

And he shot his hand up as if he were voting in the council chambers.

[chuckles] -Like, "Okay, whatever you want."

-Whatever you say is a vote for it.

So, I don't know if that's true or not, but that's kind of emblematic of her influence.

-Well, and her influence, and I'm sure your other family members too, the idea of storytelling and passing down the lineage and the customs and the things that are, you know, inherent in any culture.

-Right.

-But especially with your Cherokee background.

What are some of those things that you remember that you were told or taught stories about?

-Sure.

So, for-- In terms of Cherokee stories, it's really communal, so not necessarily in my household, you know, with my parents, and my brother so much, as just being out in the community, in the schools.

We always had storytellers who were coming through.

Cherokee people in general are great storytellers, you know.

The cyclical nature of our stories, there's a pattern to it.

It's something you can't really teach, you just-- you recognize it when you hear it.

That's very true to kind of how we see the world around us is everything connected.

-So that connectedness is the pattern of the story then?

-Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, I may be on a phone call with a family member, that when I pick up the phone, and know I'm gonna be on the phone for hours, and they're gonna start the conversation at one point.

And I will not realize where it's going to lead, but it usually will lead back to that point.

And I just think of that as a very Cherokee thing.

The other aspect is that one of our core values is a sense of humor.

And so, all storytelling that I can think of, since I was little and involved that sense of humor.

-I think that is so refreshing and it's fun.

I mean, people want to laugh and be able to take hard situations or deal with things in a way that humor kind of breaks that up a little bit.

-Yeah, absolutely.

-Makes it easier to deal with.

So, as you were-- I understand you're a basketball player.

So, your name was Netter.

Right?

Yeah?

-[chuckles] Yes, my friends.

Yes.

They use it that way.

-But now you've taken up mountain biking.

-Yes.

-And what does mountain biking do for you now?

And how does that play into writing?

-Sure.

You know, mountain biking changed my life in a lot of ways.

In terms of writing, it really helps me to focus on one aspect of riding that I've come to embrace and rely on which is, and this is not my own quote.

It's another writer had said this to me at some point that "Great literature is felt in the body."

So, when you are writing for other people and they are reading it, you want them to feel it in the body.

And I think when I'm writing, I want to tap into the-- that physicality.

So, when I mountain bike, I'm able to want to explore the landscape.

I mean, really explore the landscape and not have to imagine what the lichen on that tree out the window would look like, right?

I'm gonna be able to touch it, and you notice the folds in it.

But also, I am gonna feel the velocity of a downhill in the struggle of an uphill.

And I think that's really informative for plot propulsion.

I think about it a lot like, how much is your reader climbing?

And how much are they on the descent?

And how long can they handle each?

And it, you know, a trail is different every time you're on it, you know.

And I-- and I've learned to notice the little things and it can be a little thing on the trail that will send me off in a completely new direction with something I'm writing, usually for the best.

So I say a lot of times that I write while I ride and we joked about this, before we started that I also crash a lot.

So, but when I say that I write when I ride, I'm writing in my mind.

And just that repetitive motion helps me sometimes even hone one lines, one-line sentences, or pieces in whatever I'm writing that I'll spend, you know, an hour on one line.

But the physical repetition on the bike really helps me work it through in my mind.

-Well, and that's obvious with the lines because they're carefully written, and I loved all that parts of your book.

And when I read you, you know, you'd like to start with the synopsis and enjoy the structure.

But yet, that's the hardest part you write.

But yet, we learned such a benefit from that by you doing the book.

So, let's get into Even As We Breathe.

Introduce us to this group of characters and where we're going and what it's all about.

[Annette] Cowney is the protagonist of the story .

He's our narrator.

And this is a reflective novel.

He is talking to someone who is much younger.

And I probably won't say exactly who he's talking to because you kind of find that out in the end.

But he's really telling the story of when he was 19.

And as you mentioned, World War II is going on, and the Grove Park Inn just one summer, in the summer of 1942, held Axis diplomats and foreign nationals as prisoners of war.

So, he thinks he might be going to college.

Seems like a good idea.

Whatever he's gonna do, he wants to get away from home where his Uncle Bud is kind of using him for whatever odd jobs he needs him for.

-I did not like him, by the way.

I'm just gonna lay that out there.

-(chuckles) I won't talk about Bud.

So, yeah.

So Cowney is kind of part-time working, mostly for Bud and living with Lishie, who is Cowney's grandmother, his maternal grandmother, Bud's mother.

Cowney's mother died in childbirth.

Cowney's father died in World War II.

And there's a mystery surrounding his death.

So Cowney's ready to kind of explore the world.

And this is a short-term good opportunity for him to make some money working on grounds crew at the Grove Park Inn.

-What's interesting to me is how you wove in the disability with Cowney.

And he's got a visible disability, but it did not, you know, it was included in the story in a beautiful way.

But his strength of character and how he matures, and his interactions with Essie and all the other cast of characters you placed around, I thought that was really, really well done.

And it was great to see that also in a book for other kids and other people to see themselves just like your students saw themselves in a book to be successful.

- Yeah.

Thank you for that.

You know, I thought of that disability similar to how I thought about Cowney's racial identity.

That we know this about them, and that this plays a role, but it's not who they are completely.

And so, you know, the mention of-- there's a-- it's a foot deformity comes up a few times, but it does-- it's not obsessed on, right?

Because he wouldn't have.

He would have just continued with his life and it's just another part of who he is.

-And that growing up to see him mature is really beautiful.

So, Essie.

-Yes.

So, yeah.

So, Essie is also 19.

She's from Cherokee and she's going to the Grove Park Inn to work in the end itself.

She is very clear-headed in what she wants.

She wants to go to college.

She wants to get away.

And she considers herself more refined probably than Cowney.

Although, they're really coming from the same place.

And she's a little bit more bold than Cowney.

-Yeah.

And she is, all throughout the story.

So, you talked about those mountain trails up and down.

So, we've also got that in the story, all of a sudden, he's faced with something that he didn't do, and how is he gonna deal with it because of even the racism of bein' a Cherokee boy in that.

-You know, I think in a-- well, I hope in 2022, if we looked at the circumstances of how Cowney was accused, and why he was accused, we'd say that was ridiculous, that wouldn't happen.

But, you know, it is how, unfortunately, how we have often wrongfully accused people of crimes when, you know, some little element of evidence matches up with a circumstance, matches up with a person that we're unfamiliar with, and what we're unfamiliar with people, we suspect them.

-Or prejudge.

You know, prejudge for any number of reasons.

-Yeah.

-So, a couple of other characters, Edgar the monkey.

At first I thought, hey, that's kind of crazy.

I don't know about this Edgar the Monkey climbing through the woods here.

But, you know, I bought it.

So, I bought it.

Was that real?

-Yes, of course.

If I've got a Capuchin monkey in the Smoky Mountains, it had to be real.

-I don't know.

I'm gonna find out.

So Lishie is near and dear to my heart, you know.

So, the wisdom that she had and the way she raised him, I think, you beautifully wove through that fragile, yet strong relationship that they shared.

-Sure.

-Like if Bud will just leave out again, like I say, he's not one of my favorite guy.

-[chuckling] There's good stuff about Bud.

-Yeah.

Yeah.

But I also think the way that you wanted to show the respect for where he lived in Cherokee, and the people along with him trying to make his way in this new world.

And The Room, The Room, the 447, is that a real place?

-Yes.

So, I have a story on 447.

Okay.

So, 447 is the room that Cowney and Essie kind of find at the end that seems abandoned, and they create their own culture there.

There's, you know, there's mention of games and art and literature, all the things that make up a culture.

So, The Room, I chose the number 447 because four and seven are very important cultural numbers for our tribe.

They're, you know, kind of spiritual numbers.

And I did enough research to make sure that in the old part of the Grove Park Inn, there could have been a 447.

And you know, and then I wrote a book and then waited on the Grove Park Inn to call.

And actually, they did, eventually.

That's a great story in itself.

But prior to really connecting, you know, I talked to some people who had worked for the Grove Park and historians and whatnot, but really connecting with the Grove Park.

After the book came out, a family friend said, "Let me take you to lunch at the Grove Park."

And remember, we're in COVID, so I really hadn't had a chance to be back since the book came out.

And we went to lunch, and we decided we will go look for room 447.

So, the front desk told us, "You take this elevator."

And we got in the elevator, there's an operator because it's the older historic elevator.

And she takes us up to the fourth floor.

I think that she assumed we were there for the same reason that everybody else goes to the fourth floor of the Grove Park because the doors open.

And she points down the hall and she says, "That's where the Fitzgeralds stayed."

So, we got out and walked down.

And it turns out, she said, "When the Fitzgeralds, F. Scott and Zelda, stayed at the Grove Park, they stayed in two rooms."

They'd open up two rooms next to each other.

If that had been true, the room that Essie and Cowney kind of claimed as their own, then Essie and Cowney's room was right next to the Fitzgeralds' room.

And I didn't know that when I wrote the book.

So that was just like a fun coincidence because I'm a huge F. Scott fan, so.

-Would you be willing to read something for us?

-Yeah, absolutely.

So, I'll read from the prologue just because I think it sets us up with voice and in place without needing any background.

-"About the place, when I take you there "or when you find it on your own, "just know what the old folks say is true.

"This land is ours because of what is buried in the ground, "not what words appear on the paper.

"But also know this, what is buried in the ground "isn't always what you think, it's just the beginning.

"It's the beginning of the story, "the beginning of all of us who call ourselves homo sapiens.

"Fitting, I guess, that what I found buried "just as I was trying to figure out how to become a man "and still be human, "was the very thing that threatened to take it all away.

"Just when I began to see what taking control of my own life "might look like, I realized I was not who I thought, "and neither was this place.

"That summer in 1942, when I met her, "really met her, before I found myself "in a white man's cage and entangled in the barbed wire "that destroyed my father, I left the cage of my home "in Cherokee, North Carolina.

"I left these mountains that both hold and suffocate "and went to work at the pinnacle "of luxury and privilege, "Asheville's Grove Park Inn and Resort.

"I guess I convinced myself that I could become fortunate "by proximity, escape Uncle Bud's tirades, "and my grandmother Lishie's empty kitchen cabinets, "just by driving a couple of hours up the road.

"It sounded good to tell folks I was raising money for college.

"But the truth was, I didn't know what I was doing.

"I just didn't want to do it there anymore.

"And if I stayed any longer, I would become rooted so deeply, "I might as well have been buried.

"My plan didn't quite work the way I thought it would.

"When I got to the resort, I mostly stayed outside, "cut the trees, mowed the grass, "and helped to dig holes that would sink signs "and posts for barbed wire fences.

"Music occasionally seeped from the ballroom "that was muted by thick lead pane windows "before one note ever reached the perimeter of the property.

"That's where I first found the bone.

"I was on my hands and knees, "pitching rocks and digging holes.

"It was just as the end, like its music, "was becoming dulled by wartime restrictions "and hushed by lead bullets.

"The prisoners who were actually diplomats and foreign nationals "treated more like guests weren't even known to me yet.

"That little girl, God bless her soul, "had barely even stepped foot on the property.

And I was still as free as I would ever be."

-And there's so many clues of that.

So, we're gonna talk about the bones.

Will you stay around, and we'll talk about some things later?

-Yeah, absolutely.

-Thank you.

My special thanks to Annette Saunooke Clapsaddle for Even As We Breathe and sharing her life stories with us.

You know, she wants us to know that she is just one voice from her tribe.

And she hopes to represent them authentically and honestly.

I, for one, believe she's done that and they're gonna be really proud of her.

I hope you do too.

Make sure to check out our extended interview online.

And I'd be grateful if you share this link with all of your friends.

Until next time, I'm Rose Martin, and I'll see you next time Write Around The Corner .

-♪ Every day every day Ev ery day every day every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ [♪♪♪] ♪ Every day every day Every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ ♪ Every day every day Every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪