This program is brought to you by the generous support of The Secular Society advancing the interests of women in the arts in Virginia and beyond.

[♪♪♪♪♪] -♪ Every day every day Every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ [♪♪♪♪♪] -Welcome, I'm Rose Martin, and we are Write Around The Corner in Charlottesville, Virginia with New York Times bestselling author of The Kitchen House and Glory Over Everything , Kathleen Grissom.

We're honored to be back with this amazing author and woman , but she's back with an inspiring, true story of Crow Mary, a Crow native woman who's married off to a white fur trader who, on the eve of their return to Montana, a group of drunken whiskey traders massacre 40 Nakota .

She saves the women from certain death.

Kathleen Grissom tells the story so you can see and feel what she sees and feels during her amazing process of getting the words down on paper.

Hi, Kathleen.

-Hi, Rose.

How are you doing?

-Thank you so much for inviting us back to your home here.

-Well, thank you for including me again.

-Well, I wanna talk all about Crow Mary , but first, let's bring people into the life of Kathleen as a young girl.

So, you're originally from Canada, Saskatchewan, and a little place.

-Tiny hamlet, we didn't even qualify as a hamlet.

Anaheim, Saskatchewan.

-Ah, so your family, you're married to Charles... -Yes.

-And you have two daughters.

-Mm-hmm.

-And so, um, you've got an artist in that daughter that has helped do a lot of the things for Crow Mary ?

-Yes.

And she's done my social media.

I'd be lost without her.

That's Erin.

-In social media, you are not only great on social media, but I think you are America's favorite book club because really, you make yourself so open and available to people all across the country.

Before we got on air, you were telling me how many book clubs that you have participated in up to this point, and you're not done yet.

What's the number?

-2,500 book clubs.

-And that is amazing.

So, what do people do if they want to have Kathleen call into their book club?

-Just get ahold of me through my website and there's contact information there, and just send an email.

I answer all of those emails, and then we go back and forth and figure out a time, and then I call in.

-That's wonderful.

-It is.

It's great for me because I have a chance to talk to people who... it's as though I'm showing them my family with a book, and they are saying, "Oh, I love your family."

And then we get to talk about them.

So, that's kind of the way it is for me.

-And the books, it's a gift to the people who get a chance to meet you and to hear all of the wonderful things that go into writing the books.

But the books are also a gift in and of themselves to you, aren't they?

-The books themselves, I call them a spiritual gift.

And the whole writing experience, I call a spiritual gift because it came to me at a time in my life where it was totally unexpected.

And then, I just began to have these inspirations, and they were so strong that I knew that I was meant to research them.

And then, after I researched them, I had this stack of information with each one, and I had no idea of what to do with them, the first one.

The second one, I already had a pretty good idea, but with The Kitchen House , I didn't have any idea of what I was supposed to do with it.

So, through a series of events, I went up, I saw Robert Morgan here in Charlottesville read at the Festival of the Book.

And while he was reading, I thought, that's what I'm supposed to do.

That little girl is going to tell the story.

I had all of this research, but I didn't know.

And I thought, "That's what I'm supposed to do.

She's gonna come and tell the story."

So, I came home, and I sat down, and I just pretty much said, "Where are you?"

And with that, a movie started to play, and it included all of the research.

So, the way I look at it, I see the research as being setting the stage, and once I have that stage set, then I can step out of the way and let the characters come and tell the story.

-And what a beautiful, authentic way to tell a story.

So, it's like a movie's... -It is.

-...playing, and then you just have to make sure all the pieces are in part and then, your work is done.

Does the story tell itself while you're collecting the research?

Or are you collected, and you get to a point that, "Okay, I think I've got it to that data saturation point.

You know, I've got all the information I need.

Now I need to know how to put it together for a book."

Is that how it happens?

-The last part, the last way... -[Rose] Okay.

-...where I've collected it all, I have the stage all set, and I know there's a character coming.

I have a pretty good idea.

In Lavinia's case, I knew.

In Jamie's case, I knew, and of course, in Crow Mary's case, I knew which-- who the protagonist was going to be.

But once I had their stage set, they then could enter, and I then could pick up my pencil and follow what they were doing.

-And it's interesting you say pencil because you do legal pads.

-Yes.

-And pencil, hand-write longhand.

-Yes.

-First draft only, or for all the drafts?

-First draft only.

Unless I'm at another draft and I'm having an issue and I'm trying to figure something out, then I'll pick up my pencil again.

Otherwise, I've got it already on the computer.

But if I'm having difficulty and I need to have that real direct connection, the pencil is the best way to go.

-So, that's interesting.

So, the connection for getting the story down has to be handwritten first.

-For sure.

-That's fascinating.

-For me.

-Yeah, that's fascinating.

So, I love the fact that you meditate and journal regularly.

-Yeah, yes.

-And then, there was a story that you had with your dad about genealogy that led you, that finally put the pieces together for the book.

What's that story?

-That was for The Kitchen House .

-[Rose] Hm-mm.

-And I had gathered all of this information.

Well, first of all, it started out where we were renovating an old plantation, my husband and I.

-[Rose] Hm-mm.

-And we didn't realize that it had been, or we hadn't thought about it one way or another, but we were shown an old map.

And on the old map there, we found our place, which was called Harvey's Tavern.

About a half mile away, there was a handwritten notation that said Negro Hill.

And I became obsessed with wanting to find out what happened there.

So, I went to local historians.

There was no collective story.

Then, I went to see Mrs. Bessie Lowe.

She was a very old, she has since passed away, a very old African American woman who I thought would have the real story.

And she told me her story, her version of what happened there.

And I said, "Don't you think something happened on that hill?"

She had told a story of something happening in the town.

And she looked at me for a while and she said, "Well, why don't you write your own story?"

And I said, "I don't have a story to tell."

But she was very religious, and she said to me, after studying me for a while, "Why don't you pray on it?"

And I thought, "Ooh, I can pray all I want, but I--" -You still have all these notes.

I don't know where it's going.

-Right.

So that was that.

I went home and I talked to my dad that day, and I was telling him about what I was doing and that kind of thing.

And then, he said, "Well, that's interesting because I have this friend who's studying his genealogy."

And he discovered that his family came from Ireland in 1790 onboard ship, where they came from Ireland over to Norfolk, Virginia.

But onboard ship, the parents died, and they left three little orphans.

And then Dad said they could find the two little boys of that family, but he couldn't find a trace of the little girl.

And I knew that that little girl was the one whose story I was supposed to be telling.

-That's amazing.

And I hope so many people, if they have not read those books, The Kitchen House and Glory Over Everything , take the time to get those books and to read them, because they're going to be, again, so enthralled, they're so beautifully written and so well done.

-Okay.

-And so, your process then, I've read something interesting you said.

"I would not write a word if I waited for a creative spark to strike, because my morning is completing your daily chores before you head to your writing room."

And then you just work in the afternoon and just are structured that way.

Is that still true?

-To some degree.

It depends on what I'm working on.

If I'm working on the first draft, that is, I stick to that very rigidly.

But if I'm doing draft after draft, which is what I always end up doing, then I can be more flexible.

But I try to stick to a fairly good routine, a fairly solid routine.

I work best that way with routine.

-Yeah, and it shows because it's systematic, and the story flows.

And, you know, I love the fact that you said the process is also a spiritual gift because your way of writing and your way of opening yourself and your heart and your story to the people who are so integral in telling that story has to be, you know, a point of trust, a point of trust for you, and a trusting that, you know, I'm gonna let this flow and I'm gonna let this story evolve.

And I sure hope it's good, or I know what I'm doing.

-Yeah.

Well, the good part for me is, I don't have to worry about whether or not it's good because that isn't why I write.

Why I write is because I feel this compulsion to tell a story about someone.

And I never really thought about, "Well, will the editor like it, or won't they?"

My idea is to get that story down so that I'm serving the person that I'm meant to be serving, which is the individual, in this instance, Crow Mary.

-Well, and what kind of clues do you get along the way to make sure that you're not getting in the way, and you're telling the story that's meant to be told?

-Well, when I read it through, after I write something, after I write a brand-new section, I then read it through, and I wait to feel chills.

And that is my connection to, I call it a spirit, who is letting me know that they're pleased.

If I don't feel that, I know I have more work to do, or I'm missing something, or I'm misreading something that they're trying to give me.

And so, I'll wait for that.

I wait for that check mark that they give me, which is, okay, that's good.

-And sometimes, you have to be really patient.

-Yes.

Sometimes, I have to be really patient, and sometimes I have to really dig in and do more research.

-Hmm.

And you start in libraries with research?

-I do.

-But you also go on location.

So, you went to Montana to start with Crow Mary .

Is that where the thought first came from?

Were you out west, or was it here in Virginia?

-I was visiting my parents up in Saskatchewan, and for a day visit, this happened about 20 years ago.

For a day visit, they suggested we go over to Fort Walsh, which was a couple of hours' drive away.

And I was never really that interested in Western history, because of course, I grew up with that.

And it just never was really my thing.

But we went, and I was stunned when we were driving along a flat prairie, and all of a sudden, you come to this beautiful, the Cypress Hills area, and you have these beautiful green rolling hills covered with fir trees.

So, we got there, and they had built Fort Walsh, which was the first North-West Mounted Police fort that had been built in Saskatchewan.

And they then, there were docents, they're dressed, and they were telling us how this fort had come to be.

And I was sort of drawn to a young woman, and now I'm getting chills.

I was drawn to a young woman who was standing, she was a docent, and standing on a-- cresting a hill.

And I went over there to see her because she was speaking, and she was dressed as a Native woman.

And she said, "My name is Crow Mary.

And I was here in 1873.

I was 16 years old at the time, and I was newly married to a white fur trader.

My husband was Abe Farwell. "

And then she went on to tell a story of how she had saved four women who would be, who had been-- the rest had been massacred, and these four women were going to be raped and then murdered.

And she single-handedly saved them.

And while she was talking, I just kind of lost myself, in just looking out over this beautiful land.

And she was telling this story, and I just had this deep chill go through me.

And I thought, "That's my next story, I'm supposed to write about this."

But I was still writing The Kitchen House at the time.

So, that is when I began research, back in 2002.

-So, it's a labor of love and a long time coming.

-A long time coming.

-[Rose] I love the story, but the timing has to feel perfect.

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

-Well, I thought it was going to be right after The Kitchen House , but I went out to the Crow Reservation after The Kitchen House was published, and I tried to absorb what I was meant to absorb.

And it was as though there was a veil down in front of me, or a blanket almost, and I couldn't absorb anything.

And I knew that that person standing there by that blanket was Jamie.

And I knew Jamie, he was just saying to me, letting me know that I needed to write his story first, that I needed to look into him.

And I had no intention of writing his story, but I did then, because I knew I couldn't fight it.

So, I sort of dropped Crow Mary's story at that time.

I kept doing research through the years, but I stopped, and I went to Jamie's story next.

And then, that's how that came about.

So, then after I finished Glory Over Everything , then I started to write Crow Mary .

-Well, you gave us a quick little overview about what happens with Crow Mary from that docent that you had a chance to talk with.

So, throughout your research, did you find that she was absolutely accurate in what the story needed to have the framework for, the structure?

-Yeah.

-She was?

-Well, it was amazing to me because when I first started out, I thought, "No one is going to know anything about her.

There won't be any documentation about her."

And then I started, as through the years, I started to get just little bits and pieces.

The Saskatchewan Library, the University of Saskatchewan had brought in different papers.

Every time I'd come home, every year after that, I'd come home and I'd go right there and they would have in their archives, they would have new things for me to look at.

And I would find out just these one or two sentences about this woman, Crow Mary.

She was also called Mean Mary; she was called Big Mary.

But the fact that there was documentation about her and some of the feats that she had done throughout her life, and that they were documented by some of these really hardcore cowboys...

I just found fascinating.

-Well, and she was only 16 years old.

-At the time of that.

-[Rose] At the time of that, and yes, it was harsh, and it was brutal out west.

So, when we think about the Crow people and Crow Mary, what were some of the things you learned that you knew you absolutely had to include in her story?

[Kathleen] There were-- oh gosh.

There were so many things that I wanted to write about, and that's where my editor came in because I would've been all over the place.

And this would've been three, four times as long.

So, I really had to learn to edit.

The other thing that I edited with all of the information that I accumulated was a lot of the spiritual things, because I didn't feel it was my business to be including some of the highly spiritual things.

The Crow are a very spiritual people, and everything about their culture involves their religion, their spiritualism.

So, I had to learn how to effectively tell the story, tell her story, and still attempt to give the reader a good sense of who she was and where she came from.

-And it's respectful, the story for her, the people who are part of her world.

-Yes.

-It is a respectful story.

So, as we treat the viewers to the story, so we know who goes first is Crow Mary.

-Yes.

-And so, who are some of the other main characters?

-Well, the first that I would say would be Horse Guard, who is documented as her father.

And he was a well-known chief at that time.

So, this would've been quite something for her to marry this white man.

Her mother was also documented.

There were many, many of the characters, Red Fox was documented as her grandfather.

And then, of course, her brother, Strong Bull.

So, we had those people.

But then, as we go along, Abe Farwell, of course, there's quite a bit of documentation about him.

-And he's the white fur trader that she marries, and then goes out to build a fort.

-That's right.

-How about her friend Jeannie?

-Jeannie isn't documented.

-Yeah.

But that was a wonderful addition too, that's why I love historical fiction so much because it's taking the real, it's taking the real people and you're hearing the stories.

So, you know, were there other stories besides Crow Mary's that came through to you that felt very important to the substance of the book, that you were like, "Hmm, I need to also include this because I'm hearing that this is a very strong sense that is a part of the story."

-Yeah, I think that the story that you have was exactly that.

And I think that was distilled from what I had in the first draft, or the first two drafts.

-I love the fact that the characters, and on page 16, Red Fox, who was her grandfather, tells her, "'No one is without fear.

"There will be times in your life "when you will be very afraid, "but the brave take action in spite of that fear.'

"And she asks him, 'Will I ever be that brave?'

"And he tells her, 'You already are.

It's the brave who tell the truth.'"

And truth is such an important part of the story.

-Hm-mm, hm-mm.

For me.

-That's so impactful, right.

It's so impactful.

I think the time... the other thing I found very interesting is how the seasons played out, you know, with how they, people were... you know, months were moons and, you know, just the reference to time and place and people, told differently.

So, I learned a lot from just reading that.

And that was important for you to make sure that you had that also included in the story.

-Yes.

-[Rose] Like years were snows.

-Well, the Crow, they have a highly sophisticated culture, and I was not aware of the level of sophistication until I started to really look into this and really study it.

So, that was what I was hoping to, by bringing in the seasons and by bringing how they could tell the time from the stars.

And, I mean, there were so many things that I learned that I wanted to include.

And as I said, it was distilled down, but I hoped that that came across.

-Well, in one point in the book, I love where Farwell and Mary are looking at the stars.

And she says, you know, "Don't point with your finger, first maker gives us stars.

They are so sacred."

And that respect and that sacredness of her story is one piece of it, but it's the horrific thing that she had to deal with, and her story of how she saved these women on her own, is just remarkable.

So, without giving the story away, what would you like the viewers to know about how Crow Mary was, you know, part of this amazing life, and yet horrific events that happened, and then after.

So, I'm gonna let you decide what we tell everybody about the story.

-Yeah.

Well, I don't know that we're giving anything away because it's on the jacket and things like that about how she saves these four women.

But when I think about how I was at the age of 16, 17, I think she was already 17 when that happened, she married at 16, and then the following spring, so she would've been 17.

But the idea for her, the bravery, the courage that it must have taken for her to decide to take her guns and that's all she had, and to just go and make an attempt to save these women.

I don't think we understand just how rough some of these characters were.

I mean, they would kill you just as soon as look at you.

And she knew that, and especially because she was a target for them, and would have been.

So, it just made it doubly dangerous for her.

-And you think of the men that didn't get involved to help her, that she single-handedly went in there and said, "I'm gonna do this."

-That's right.

And there were a lot of-- this was in the middle of a massacre, so there was a lot of different moving parts, but she alone decided that this needed to be done, and she did that.

-And the story takes many, many different turns, and people find out what happened before, during, and after the massacre.

And the remarkable life that she led along with her own family and how that came about.

Would you be willing to read something for us?

-I would love to do that.

-I have to tell you, I went back to the prologue several times as I was reading this book.

Carol and I both did, to go back and read it again and again and again.

-Well then, I'll read the prologue.

-Oh, no, no.

You choose, you choose.

-That's what I had chosen.

-I'm gonna let you do it.

Okay, perfect.

-So, this is where Mary is already about 36 years old, and she's already lived quite a life.

But we enter here... this is in her voice, and this is 1891.

"It was dark and hot at the back of the big barn "as I rolled aside a heavy wagon wheel "that leaned against the entry to the storage room.

"A slam behind me made me jump, heart hammering even more, "but it was only a stall door caught by the wind.

"Careful of the bottle of whiskey that sat at my feet, "I worked a key in the rusty lock.

"Finally, it clicked, and the log door moaned open.

"This room had been built with one high, small window "so none of the ranch hands, drunk or daring, "would be tempted to break in, "and I squinted into the dim light.

"A fine dust covered everything, "though the air smelled clean enough.

"A wood floor had been put in to keep the pelts dry, "and the chinking along the logs "had kept out the wet ice of our brutal Montana winters "and the worst of our hot sun.

"Leftover goods from our fur-trading post "were scattered on the pine shelves.

"A comb, a few bars of soap, and even an old can of sardines "lay next to a mouse-nibbled red blanket "and the remainder of one last buffalo hide.

"But there - there in the corner on the second-highest shelf, "two tiny blue bottles shone in the pale-yellow light.

"Mice scurried when I pushed aside "empty liquor barrels to get to the shelf, "and as I reached up, my hand trembled.

"The tiny bottle was no heavier than a pinecone, "but the enormity of what it held "almost put me on the floor.

"With great care, I set it next to the liquor, "unplugging first the whiskey bottle; "then, before I could hesitate, I picked up the strychnine "and held it up to the light.

"How much did I need to kill a man?

"Just a small amount of this "would take down any number of animals.

"I shrugged and tipped the entire contents "of the blue bottle into the whiskey.

"'Dead is dead,' I told myself.

"'You can't overkill him.'

"As I was locking up again, "I heard the horses circling the corral, "answering a whinny that had come "from the direction of my tipi.

"Was he early?

Was he already waiting?

"My legs went weak, and I leaned against the wall.

"I was no match for him.

I was as good as dead.

"But then I remembered what he had done to Song Woman, "and what would happen to Ella, and rage straightened me.

"I gave the whiskey bottle a last shake.

"'Awe alaxáashih!

Hold firm,' I said to myself, and then I went out to greet him."

-Beautiful!

And I think that sets the stage for an amazing story from an amazing woman.

What do you think is a message that you want people, viewers, readers, to get from Crow Mary's story?

-Oh my, that's a difficult question for me to answer because I try to write the most authentic story that I can, that I feel I'm meant to tell, and then I'm supposed to get out of the way.

And what each individual gets from this story, I think, is their business.

It's not mine.

-I think that's absolutely perfect.

-Okay.

-That's a perfect answer.

-Oh, good.

-[Rose] My special thanks to Kathleen Grissom for inviting us here to her home in Charlottesville, and for sharing the story of Crow Mary.

There's something in this story for all of us to learn, appreciate.

Please pick up a copy and share it with your friends and your family.

I think this is a story that wasn't known before, and it's about time we know it.

And you know what, check out more of our conversation online because we're gonna continue talking about Crow Mary and some of Kathleen's other work.

I'm Rose Martin, and I'll see you next time Write Around The Corner .

-♪ Every day every day Every day every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ ♪ Every day every day Every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ ♪ Every day every day Every day ♪ ♪ Every day I write the book ♪ This program is brought to you by the generous support of The Secular Society advancing the interests of women in the arts in Virginia and beyond.