- [Announcer] Thank you for joining us for "Your Last Meal," moderated by Rachel Belle.

Before we begin, we would like to thank our session sponsor, Northwest Harvest.

Northwest Harvest is working to achieve food security for all Washingtonians by breaking down barriers that prevent people from accessing good food, and addressing the root causes of poverty and hunger.

You can join the fight for food justice by supporting Northwest Harvest at www.northwestharvest.org.

We'd also like to thank our founding sponsor, the Kerry & Linda Killinger Foundation.

- Oh hi, it's me, it's Rachel Belle, and this is the very first live edition of "Your Last Meal," which I always imagined, there would be thunderous applause but since this is virtual, I'm gonna announce this, and then we're gonna just have awkward silence, like this for just a minute.

Thanks so much to Crosscut Festival for having us, and when I say us, I guess I mean me, but it makes me sound more important to say us.

Let me just explain the show a little bit because I know there are people who've never heard it, or people who don't live in the area.

So on each episode of "Your Last Meal," I interview a celebrity about their last meal.

So past guests include John Waters, and Greta Gerwig, Mayim Bialik, Ben and Jerry, Neil deGrasse Tyson.

And then I dig into the science, the culture, and the history of that dish that they choose with experts from around the world.

So today's guests are the third-generation owners of Canlis, a James Beard Award-winning fine dining institution in Seattle that opened in 1950.

It was more recently than 1950 described by the "New York Times" as "Seattle's fanciest, finest restaurant."

Introducing brothers Mark and Brian Canlis.

And then later in the show, like I mentioned, we will dig into one of their meals.

So I will welcome Seattle cookbook author, and, if I may, call her this, dumpling queen, Hsiao-Ching Chou to the show, so she's gonna be with us later.

And I just wanna remind everybody who's watching that we're gonna do a Q and A at the end, so at any time, when you have a burning question, just write it in the chat.

Somebody's keeping track of that, and we will get to you at the very end.

So hi, Mark, hi, Brian, thanks for being with us.

- Hey Rachel.

- Hi, Rachel.

- We're glad to be here.

- Thank you.

- Well, we gave thunderous applause, We just want you to, I don't think we were on, - Yeah, we were like cheering.

(both cheer) - It is so weird to do a performance, and then just have complete silence, it's like very nerve wracking.

So I just wanna give a little bit more background for people, for what you've been doing for the past 16 months since the pandemic started.

So the dining room at Canlis has been closed for 16 months, but you've gotten attention around the country and around the world actually, for finding really really inventive ways to get your food to people.

And so a couple months ago, I got an email from a listener who said, "Can you stop using the word pivot?

"I'm so tired of people using the word pivot "to describe things changing during the pandemic."

So I'm gonna say some of the things you've done over the past 16 months, I looked this up in the thesaurus.

To rotate, turn, revolve, spin, swivel, twirl, whirl, wheel, and oscillate.

- Twirl and whirl.

- There's been a lot of twirling and whirling.

- There's a lot of that.

Thank you for not using the P-word.

- Yeah, we're not saying it.

Well, actually I'll let you do it.

So tell me some of the things you've done, there's like a long list of different things you've done with your restaurant that's made it really accessible to people who, you know, maybe didn't own a tie, and never went to Canlis before.

- We can do 'em an order.

Do you wanna give 'em in order?

- Yeah, yeah.

- So burger, drive in burger, I don't even know what we call that thing.

- The drive-through.

- Burger drive through.

- Followed by an outdoor Bagel Shed bagel restaurant.

Followed by a delivery, home delivery.

- Home delivery service.

Followed by, we did a piano livestream show for people to be able to watch piano, piano players live.

- Hosted a bingo show, which was kind of fun.

Then we did bottle service, and like alcohol and wine pairing service, delivered to your home.

We did CSA kits for farmers and that kind of thing.

- We opened a general store for like selling merch to raise money for nonprofits.

- We did a movie theater, a drive in movie theater in the parking lot.

- And then we did a crab shack, which was an entire restaurant we built just for COVID.

It was this outdoor restaurant where you just ate tons of crab.

- We opened something called Canlis Community College.

A little mysterious, - That's a long one, that's hard to explain.

- Yeah, that didn't make any sense.

- Now, it worked.

That was probably our most successful thing we did.

- And then we did yurts.

- We did a yurt village, which was this outdoor restaurant made of yurts.

- Yurt village one.

- And then we did Camp Canlis, which was a, we had a Treehouse restaurant, and we have a canteen barbecue restaurant, and we have a second yurt village.

Tomorrow we do kind of our last thing, which is Mondays.

- Care packages - Yeah.

We launched care packages, where you can send care packages off.

- Oh yeah.

- So it's 18, I think there are 18 ideas in there, unless we forgot a couple.

But it's been whirly.

It's been twirly and whirly.

- It's been oscillaty, it's been spinny.

Yeah, so.

So I mentioned earlier that you are the third generation to be running this restaurant.

Your grandfather started it, and then your parents took over, and then you took over.

So I've always been intrigued by any family business in general.

Because I always wonder: did you wanna do it, or did you have to do it?

Did you feel pressure to do it?

So I guess you can answer that question, but also, where were you in your lives, what were you doing when your parents decided to retire, and, was it a choice to take over?

- It was absolutely a choice.

They wanted me to do it, I think that's fair to say.

No one really thought, I mean it's hard to, like, no, and then Mark couldn't do it, and then he asked me to come help him.

- Actually, there's sort of some truth in that.

No, we didn't think we were gonna do this.

- Our parents really held it with an open hand.

They were like "Hey it's, if you ever want this business, "you're gonna have to earn it, "you're gonna have to earn your way in.

"but it's not gonna be handed to you.

"And also if you don't want it, that's fine, "we'll sell it and make some money and retire."

So we had the freedom to choose or not choose, both of us were in the Air Force.

- I really think that kind of pushed us out of it.

But I think that looking back, you know, now that we're parents, you sort of see what Mom and Dad were doing and you're like, "Ah ha!"

- It was a total Jedi mind trick.

- It was the Jedi.

We might've been Jedi mind tricked into coming back.

Because we left, we were far.

You were in Florida, and I was living in Alaska.

We were both in the military.

- Kind of going different directions from restaurants.

- But here we are.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, we ended up doing it.

- I actually came back first, and it was a really hard go.

Like it was really hard to take over from Mom and Dad, and just what was going on.

And at some point, Dad made a recommendation.

It's like, "You should go get your brother.

"That would like fix this whole thing."

And it kind of did.

- Basically.

- I wouldn't tell the story that way in my, no but generational transfer, there's a reason a lot of businesses don't make it.

It's hard, and, - Yeah.

- It takes a lot of work.

Not everyone has a little brother.

- Not everyone has me.

- to like, fly in and save the day.

- So, you guys have so much energy, and it makes sense that you came up with all of these creative ideas that you've done over the past 16 months, which is super unique.

So I want you to tell a story, a story I've heard before but I love, and I want you to share it with people, to kind of show that your family has this kind of creative energy.

Tomorrow's Mother's Day.

Your mom is a little prankster.

Talk about the greatest prank that Mama Canlis ever pulled on her children.

- Seriously, can we can we go there?

Are you ready?

Emotionally?

- Yeah.

No, I'm ready.

- This with your, - Yeah, I just think like what I mean, there were some long nights when our dad had to work at the restaurant, and she was home alone with us.

And I think she just had to get real creative to entertain herself.

- So we're teenagers right?

Like young teenagers.

- I feel like I was like 11, which makes you 13 or 14.

- But emotionally like 18, 'cause I always feel like a little bit ahead.

- So mature.

- So anyway, so Brian's, yeah so we're, I don't know.

And the story begins when we're around the family table, all eating lasagna - No, it was like a chicken-- - A chicken casserole or some kind of like.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And Mom, she just starts giggling.

Just sort of like, restrained, hushed, sort of.

- Subtle.

- Like "Oh, pardon me, I've just, I'm still dealing "with something funny from earlier in the day."

But she can't get it out of her mind, and she keeps giggling.

And the giggling just starts to sort of like bubble forth as a major thing that the table's to talk.

And we're like, "Why is mom laughing?"

- Like "Mom, what's going on?

- Like "Mom!"

Like, "Come on, what's the joke?"

And she, "Oh no, it's nothing, I just, I can't."

But you know, anyway, that kind of thing, right?

This is my Mom.

She's like 30 minutes into pulling this off, when finally we get it out of her.

- Yeah - She's like, "Well, do any of you have to go to the bathroom?"

- Really, she gets it out of us.

- "Because I found this Ex-Lax in the cupboard, "and I've always wondered if it worked.

"And so I just put it in the casserole."

- Yeah, "I poisoned the casserole with a diuretic."

- She's like, "And it cracks me up.

"Because apparently, Ex-Lax is fake."

It must be like fake news or something, because we didn't have that word back then, but it's not working.

Right, okay.

So naturally, you know what happens.

One by one, we all excuse ourselves.

- We all like run to the bathroom, and have to go to the bathroom.

- And actually go to the bathroom.

- Uncontrollably.

- Yeah, it wasn't like we just sat there and wondered.

It was like no, we need to go.

- Yeah, I think Matt went first, we have an older brother.

- Yeah, he booked it.

- So this only increases the giggling a little bit, right?

Like you kind of see where this is going because by the time we've all sort of returned to the table, and yeah, she's actually, this is like funny to her.

- After we've been poisoned.

- And we're like, what's so funny?

- And she's like, "Well, I was I was joking about the Ex-Lax.

"I just made it up."

It's like, like who does that with their own children?

- Wow, also, we didn't eat, - Yeah, no I definitely went.

- No, I definitely went.

And I don't think I was a dinner time goer.

- No, I'm more of a morning guy.

- You just get into those rhythms, and it was not my time.

- But it was, it was back then.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

- No, I'm still in therapy.

- We talk about it.

Yeah, we all talk about it.

- Talk about my mom.

And yet, it's true.

- You didn't talk about Ex-Lax, but, - No, we didn't, we talk about Mom though.

- Have you ever used Ex-Lax?

- No, I haven't.

But my mom was the Metamucil lady, If I may tell her secrets the day before Mother's Day.

- Powerful effect, okay.

- Yeah, so to all the mothers, maybe tomorrow we should actually do like a, - We should poison her.

- We should (laughs) - Fake only, joke poison her, it's fine.

- Sorry, yeah.

- Put a diarrhetic into her casserole.

- That was the Canlis family dinner table growing up.

- Diuretic in the casserole sounds like a punk band you would have been in in high school.

- Yes.

- Yeah, - Our internet handle.

- We've never done it at the restaurant, by the way.

That trick, - Yeah, that's good.

Everybody's stand down.

It's never been done at the restaurant.

So your grandparents owned this, your parents owned it, you on this, so you grew up, you know, in this fine dining atmosphere at work, but you didn't eat that way at home.

You told me that you ate pizza, and macaroni and cheese, and cereal, kind of like a classic American 1980s white person childhood food.

And so that brings me to this question.

Brian, you have a secret guilty pleasure that nobody except your wife knows about, but you've decided to tell the world.

So what is the food that you still feel a little embarrassed about?

- My mom used to always shop at Costco, and one of the things that she'd get at Costco were these like, five pound bags of shredded cheddar cheese.

- You know, I put two kinds of cheese, not like the white and like the, - And it was in the freezer, and I love cheese.

And so what I would do is, I would sneak into the freezer, and I would scoop, and you have to scrape it with like a fork to get the, and then you'd fill like a little, - Ramekin.

- Or like a little kid cup, a plastic three inch cup, packed with cheese, put it in the microwave for about 32 seconds, and it comes out, and then you just eat pure melted cheese with a fork.

And what's funny that you're asking this is, this morning, my kids are watching the "Sound of Music," and my wife was asleep because she didn't sleep well last night because she's seven months pregnant with our fourth kid.

And I totally did it.

I went - That's not a thing from his past, this is like an active practice.

- And this morning, I ate a cup of melted cheese.

- You did, you just horked the melted cheese.

- No, it's a perfect food, it's perfectly seasoned, the texture is, people have it on nachos, they put on pizza.

But what if you just take the nacho and the pizza away?

- Most people are not, are just hiding behind the fact they want to, like the nachos are like a vehicle.

- It's an excuse to get the melted cheese into your body.

- Would you invite them to go straight to the cheese?

You would.

- Just eat the melted cheese straight up.

- There you go.

- But the only weird part about it.

- I was gonna say, I was married about two years, and my wife caught me doing it like in the kitchen, eating melted cheese with a fork.

And she was absolutely horrified at how disgusting that was.

- There are worse things to get caught doing.

- Yeah.

- I think the weird part is that you use a fork.

Why would you not use a spoon?

Doesn't it just drip through the tines?

- With a spoon, it'll stick, and you have to like, - No that, - That lip thing to get it off the spoon.

- Yeah The fork really is better, you'll see.

I've used both, I've tried it with both.

- You'll see.

- With a fork, it's a more enjoyable experience.

- All right, so you guys just hired a new executive chef, and this was big news, it was in the "New York Times," The Gray Lady even covered it, and it made news because you're one of the country's finest restaurants, but also because it was the first female executive chef you've hired.

And I was really impressed by this, only the seventh executive chef that the restaurant has had in 70 years.

So people really really stick around.

But I was reading an article about it in Seattle Metropolitan Magazine, and you have a very, very unique interviewing process that reminded me of these things you hear about in tech companies that I've never experienced before.

So can you talk about some of the more unique things that you have your candidates do when they've applied for a job at Canlis?

- We did branch out into a new interviewing process, COVID's been an unusual time, but you know, we couldn't kind of do what we wanted to do.

We wanted to, we like to get to know the person, like the whole person, and try to understand what's really going on there.

And typically, that's a lot of time spent together, which is hard to do in the pandemic.

So yeah, typically we'd say like, come have dinner with me and my kids, or - Let's play games.

- Let's play game of charades.

- Or laser tag, or let's like bring you in for a poker night.

- Yeah, we think being a chef is like cooking and making great food is low on the list of what makes you a great chef.

You have to be able to cook great food.

- I wouldn't say it's low and list, I would say it's the first step.

Like it's an assumption.

Of course you're an amazing cook.

- Yeah, it's like if you - Of course you do great things with food.

- Yeah, if you're gonna be a football player, of course you can throw the ball.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- Or that you know the rules to football.

Like that test is sort of the first barrier to entry.

- But yeah, so we did this thing we just said, "Hey, could you write a little article, "like say you're Seattle Matt, or say you're Seattle Times.

"Like just give us the headline, and the byline, "and a couple of paragraphs about "what the story is about you coming to the restaurant."

And then we said, "Could you just make a video, like 60 seconds, "of you wholeheartedly doing something "like, pouring yourself into a task "that you're clearly not very good at, "like that you just, you're terrible at.

"I just wanna see you like, yeah go for it."

'Cause we believe great leaders, which is what kitchens need in this country, Not great egos, like, are comfortable being seen.

They're comfortable showing others when they're not good at something.

They're comfortable being vulnerable.

And so we had a lot of chefs send their videos of them doing things that they were good at, because they couldn't stand to be seen as not being great.

- So many people failed at this, it's 60 seconds.

It's like, come on.

Like we all have something that we just suck at.

And then, they couldn't do it.

And it just tells you a lot about a person.

I think the ability to let yourself be known, or let yourself be seen, is something that we lack in leadership across the board, not just in kitchen.

- Yeah.

And so Aisha, who we hired as our chef, she's like, she's very serious, and she's super professional, and she's so dialed in, and so talented, and we knew this from like talking to her, and her resume is like, insane.

And she sends this video, we get her video, and we're like really nervous to get her video because we really liked her.

- Yeah, we were already kind of sold, but.

- And she starts like really serious looking at the camera and she's like, "Okay, I think I'm just gonna do this."

And she turns on some music, and she starts to dance.

- It's like a TikTok video or something.

- Yeah, and she's so bad at this.

- This is not her forte.

- But she dances hard, and with her whole heart.

She's like, "I'm gonna learn this dance like the kids do.

"I'm gonna do it for ya."

- Yeah, it was like the Dougie or something, and we're like cringing, you know, like nobody wants to.

- Yeah, and she's cringing, but she doesn't give up.

And she keeps going, and she was like, "I'm not gonna stop for 60 seconds."

And we were like, that's, like there's, - Powerful.

Like there's a leader we want to follow.

- Yeah, like fully.

I was like, I wish I could do that video.

I would be scared to turn the camera on, and start dancing.

- And even right now, we're actually on the hunt for our new wine director.

Our wine director is leaving after 19 or 20 years, he's an amazing guy.

- And we've done the same thing where, so we're currently, so just yesterday we got two more videos.

- We're watchin' some fun videos.

- Of people sending their video in of doing something they're bad at.

It's an awesome, I think for a leadership position, it's an awesome thing to have people do.

- Yeah.

I Think that's a great way to go about it, because this reminds me, I applied for a job years ago actually, to be a food tour guide, and I didn't get the job.

And I asked her afterwards, "Would you mind telling me why I didn't get the job?"

And during the interview she asked that question that people always ask which is, you know, "What are your strengths and what are your weaknesses?"

And of course, I have that canned weakness, The one that's not really a weakness.

It's like, "Well I just work too hard, "and I just burn myself out."

Like the fake, you know, the fake reason.

And so she said, "Well, what's another weakness?"

And I couldn't think of one because I didn't wanna tell her, well I just kind of like go on Facebook for hours, and don't get any of my work done.

So I said, "I'll get back to you, let me think about it."

And she never came back around.

So after I didn't get the job, I asked her why I didn't get it, and she said, "The fact that you couldn't reveal your weaknesses "made it seem like you have an ego."

And I was like, "What?

"But nobody answers that question sincerely."

So I feel like you asking that question in the form of letting someone be silly and make a video allows somebody to actually, you don't have to tell people your real weaknesses, you can just show what you're bad at that has nothing to do with your job.

- Just the willingness to be seen for your own humanity.

- And like, it takes two, right, like the company has to care enough to do that, and then you have to be willing to be seen in that way.

And it's only then that you're actually establishing a real relationship.

If all we care about is our strengths, we care about you know, one slice of her.

- And the idea is that you're actually caring for your people.

So their actual selves, their actual authentic selves.

And if you're not entering into that kind of relationship at work, like what a sad and tragic sort of state that is, right.

Hopefully we get to be our complete selves, even while we're working, not in spite of work.

So anyway, that's all what we're trying to get to in the interview process, is who will you become while you're working here, or because you're working here, and so.

- Right.

Okay, one more quick question before we get to your last meals.

I was looking at the original 1950 menu from the year that Canlis opened, and by the way, lobster on the appetizer menu for a dollar-fifty, which was amazing.

And a baked potato for 50 cents, there wasn't much difference in price between a potato and lobster.

But the one thing that's on that menu is the Canlis salad that you're famous for, and is still on the menu today.

Three-part question: number one, is that the only thing that's around still that's from the original menu?

Number two, I guess it's a two-part question.

Tell everybody what the Canlis salad is.

- It is the only original menu item that's still here.

We give our executive chef freedom to create.

- Complete autonomy.

- The entire menu, except for that one dish, which is a special dish, I mean my, - Basically because we're all addicted to it.

Like you can say it out loud, like it's okay to like.

- It is just so delicious.

My own mother craved, my mom craved that salad when she was pregnant, which means I'm genetically made up of that salad.

Because all she ate.

- You are, yeah.

- But it's, - You're basically the human embodiment.

- I am the human Canlis salad.

- Romaine, bacon, - Oregano, lemon.

- A lot of olive oil and lemon, you know.

- Yeah, salt and pepper.

- It's just a tossed salad.

Ostensibly, it has no place on a fine dining menu, but we think a little differently about fine dining in a sense that it's really just the, like the most considered way to serve you.

And there's so many people in this town for whom that recipe just connects with.

Like they remember it growing up as a kid, they've been eating it their entire lives, and so maybe the world's greatest dish is the world's greatest dish.

But maybe that salad actually connects with you, or serve you even in a better way.

And so we just, we keep it on there.

We keep it on there because it's a part of who we are, and where we come from.

And it's one of those pieces of our past that we, it's one of those shoulders that we get to stand on, and I think it's a way that we can keep serving.

So that's the Canlis salad.

It's not going anywhere.

- It's changed a little, like now we make our own bacon, or now we use, like, finer ingredients.

But for the most part, it's the exact same.

- Yeah.

- I love it.

Okay, we better get moving along.

You guys are so fun to chat with, we're running out of time.

Okay, big question: What would your last meal be?

Mark, you go first.

- Okay.

Well, I was debating.

I was either like, Spaghetti Os out of the can, which is, - Oo, cold?

- I used to love to do all the time.

And then I thought, no, I'm gonna step it up.

Here's my favorite thing: It would just be caprese.

Like, tomato, mozzarella, basil, sherry vinegar, not balsamic.

That's, I could eat, I think I could give you that forever.

A platter of at the size of this table, and I would just, - That's a lot.

- I would just do it.

That would be my thing, what would you do?

What's your last meal?

- Hold on, just caprese?

It's not a meal, that's a dish.

- It is a meal in and of itself.

It is complete, it is wholly, - Any more specifics, like you'd have a certain tomato, or a certain mozzarella?

- Now you have, you have to be very specific.

- I'm very picky, so like an Olive Garden situation?

- It is not Olive Garden, it's my caprese.

I make, can I just say this?

My wife's Italian, or part Italian.

I think I make a very good caprese.

It is my most celebrated and special thing I eat all year long.

You've never made me caprese in your life.

- We're not there yet.

- You're saying you're the best caprese maker in the world, and yet you've never shared your talent?

- I wouldn't say I'm the best caprese maker in the world, I don't think I've ever had a caprese I liked more than mine.

- But you've traveled around the world.

You've been to Italy like, - I've eaten everywhere around the world.

- And yours is best.

- It's very good caprese, yeah.

Yeah, okay, it might be.

I didn't say it was best, I just said it's the one I wanted.

- So is there wine with it?

Are you gonna have any wine?

- Yeah I would have wine.

- What would you have?

What's your pairing?

- My pairing, let's see what would I have?

It would be white, and it would be sort of, you know what it would be?

It would be like a really sweet Chablis.

Like just something like that.

- Wow, you don't mean sweet, you mean dry?

- I mean, by sweet I actually mean, like awesome, or sick, or rad, or cool.

- Oh.

- I don't mean residual sugar in the wine, it's a dry wine.

- Chablis is the greatest wine in the world.

- Yeah, I would do it like an amazing Chablis.

- Okay, my last meal would be, - Melted cheese.

- Eating dumplings in Taipei at the original Din Tai Fung.

I, so I was in Shanghai with a good friend of mine, who's also a restaurateur, named Will Guidara.

He was a close friend from college, and we decided to go to Shanghai together.

And it was one of those days where we were like, so tired and so hungry, and it's a hard city to be in as an American If you don't speak the language.

It's not an easy place to be a tourist.

And we found this restaurant that had this, and often when you're in Shanghai, everyone's trying to sell you something, and it's hard to know what to trust sometimes if, is that watch you're selling real or not real, right?

So, and there's this bronze plaque outside this restaurant in a strip mall.

And the bronze plaque says the "New York Times" in the mid nineties called this restaurant the top 10 restaurant in the world.

- Wow.

- Like, there's no way this is real.

We'd never heard of it.

But we were so hungry, we went in.

And it was like the fourth branch of Din Tai Fung.

And we had this meal with just beer and xiao long bao, which is their soup dumplings.

And we must've eaten 60 or 70 easily between the two of us.

And just beer, and then we had sake, and dumplings.

And we kept repeating, and repeating.

And we couldn't believe that the place was empty, and not more popular, and we like hopped on our phones after, and sure enough, the Taipei restaurant was named one of the 10 best restaurants in the world.

And we couldn't believe that we had discovered this thing.

And we went back the next day, because we had to go back, And there was a line like, a thousand people long.

And we didn't realize that it was like, a Chinese holiday.

And we were like, oh this place actually is famous.

We stopped, we talk about that meal of dumplings, sake, and beer.

- You are a dumpling fan.

- I, it's the perfect, - You keep going there in your head.

- No, it's the only thing that's better than pure melted cheese.

- They should put that on the sign next to the "New York Times."

- With, and then you dip it in black vinegar, with just a touch of soy, and you drink the soup.

The Din Tai Fung here in Seattle, it's great, and I'm a frequent guest.

But it's not as good as it is over in Asia.

And I just dream at the Taipei restaurant, the original, which goes back to the seventies, has to be like, the greatest single restaurant in the world.

That's where I wanna go.

And then I'll die on the sidewalk right outside after, and I'll be so happy.

- You're not just gonna like face plant into a bowl?

- Into a little dumpling.

- That's disrespectful to the restaurant.

I need to leave, get to the sidewalk, and then die.

- And then just.

- Okay guys, I could talk about this with you all day, but we are running out of time, so we have to bring on our second guest.

So everybody if you're listening, if you have questions for Mark and Brian, type them in the comments, we're gonna do Q and A after this.

But now we're gonna switch gears, because like I mentioned at the beginning, once I learn the last meals of my guests, we like to talk about the history, the science, the culture.

So we are gonna focus in on those soup dumplings, the xiao long bao from Din Tai Fung, with Hsiao-Ching Chou.

There was a lot of three words in a row right there.

And Hsiao-Ching is the Seattle author of "Chinese Soul Food," and her new book, "Vegetarian Chinese Soul Food."

Beautiful books, I keep mine on my coffee table when, you know, I wanna just look at something pretty, just to leaf through, so welcome, thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

And the whole time I'm listening to Brian describe, wax poetic about soup dumplings I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I've been to all those locations, and yes, it's a fantastic parcel of deliciousness.

And I know you wanna get geeky about soup dumplings, and I'm ready to do that.

So do you wanna ask a question, or should I just launch into it?

- I'll ask you a question first, just because for anyone listening who's never had xiao long bao, I just wanna be clear that the soup is in the dumpling.

It's not a bowl of soup with dumplings in it, It is trapped inside of the dumpling wrapper.

And so I want you to explain the magic.

How do they get the soup in the dumpling?

Well, first it's xiao long bao.

Xiao is little, long is the basket, bao is the ball.

And so but how the soup gets into the dumpling is that you get basically, meat gelatin right?

Meat jello that you make with bones, and pork skin, and all sorts of deliciousness to get the natural collagen.

Cook that down, chill it, that becomes gelatin.

You chop that up to go into the filling.

And then when it steams, all of that melts, and the soup is inside.

And it is probably one of the most delightful things to eat, but also one of the most dangerous, because you have this boiling hot soup inside that's straight out of the steamer, and you have to eat them hot.

So you develop a Teflon tongue, and just, you know, eat very carefully.

But yeah it's really, that's how you do it.

And there are soup dumplings where you have soup in a separate bowl, so there is that version as well.

But mostly, it's soup inside the dumpling.

- Can you give us a tip on how to know when it's the right temperature?

Do you have like a, do you have a method for that, or?

'Cause it's dangerous, right, I mean you could go, - It is dangerous.

You just, you know, as soon as it comes to the table, you start eating it.

And it's almost like you're aerating a sip of wine.

You aerate the, you suck the soup out of the dumpling, and kind of aerate it as you go, and that helps to cool it down a little bit so you're not scalding your tongue.

But you can't, like once it cools, the rapper just kind of shrinks in on itself, and it's just not the same textural experience.

So you gotta eat it while they're hot.

But you learn how to eat them hot.

- Well I'm wondering if the way I was taught was the wrong way, kind of like I was remembering the other day that when I first started eating sushi in my early twenties, we would put the pickled ginger on the roll, and eat it that way.

And now, I haven't done that for a long time.

So I'm wondering if this is a similar faux pas.

I was taught to eat the soup dumplings by like, taking the teeniest little bite to let the steam out, and then to eat it.

Do you not do that?

- Well, you have your Chinese spoon, and chopstick in the other hand.

So you kind of, you scoop, using your chopsticks, you have to lift the dumpling into your soup spoon, so it's okay to reach into the basket that way, and then yeah some people take the small bite, let the steam escape, and then drink the soup, and then eat the dumpling.

Some people take a bigger bite, so it just depends on what your capabilities are.

Certainly with my kids, they have to be extra careful, 'cause they aren't quite, well they're are better now, but when they were younger, it was a lot more dangerous.

But yeah, there's, you know and then whether you wanna dip it in sauce, or chili sauce, and all of that.

So you have you have some differences of preference.

- So can we talk a little just briefly about the history?

When did these come about, where are they from?

Was this, I mean it's such an elaborate, time-consuming dish to make, I was wondering if this was for royalty.

- Well, legend has it that it was created in Nan Xiang County in Shanghai.

And, you know, in the 19th century.

But as with any of these types of history, that's sort of debated who actually invented it.

But Shanghai is the origin of these dumplings, and there's lots of traditional places in Shanghai, if you ever go there again, Brian.

There are other restaurants.

And in fact, if you want to look up the Shanghai soup dumpling index, this guy named Christopher actually tried 52 different Shanghai xiao long bao restaurants, and then measured four different qualities, and put it in a poster.

So it's you know ratio, weight and filling ratio, all that stuff, and that's an a chart.

Yeah so it originates from Shanghai.

And the thing with Din Tai Fung is, it was founded in Taipei, but they happened to have a chef who knew how to make xiao long bao, and he introduced that to Taipei, like that's kind of the history of it.

And speaking of Din Tai Fung, they are, if you ever stand outside the window, and you see them like making their dumplings, the rappers weigh five grams, the filling weighs 16 grams, so for a total of 21 grams, and there are exactly 18 pleats.

And so the chefs there train and train and train to get it exactly right every single time.

Now, when I teach soup dumpling making for home cooks, I'm like, okay we're home cooks, we're not gonna be that precise.

Just make the dumpling, steam it, and you you're good to go.

But if you do wanna get really geeky about it, you can kind of prescribe exactly how many pleats you want to do it.

And the thinner the wrapper, the better it tastes, but it's really hard to get the wrapper just right.

So at home, I'm a little bit more forgiving with folks.

- I don't know where I heard this, if I read it or heard it on a podcast, 'cause when I went back to find it today I couldn't.

I heard a rumor that they won't hire dumpling makers who are left-handed, because you have to all be in a line, and it would disrupt the flow, you have to be a right-handed dumpling maker.

- I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but if you're left-handed, you can train to be a right-handed pleater.

Like, I don't see that as an issue, right?

Like you can be ambidextrous.

And if you make dumplings, and I have made many, just like pot sticker, boiled dumplings, that kind of thing.

Many, many, tens of thousands across my decades of being on this earth, and you have to be ambidextrous if you're pleating on both the right and the left side.

So I can pleat with my left hand.

I am right-handed, so I naturally can pleat with my right hand.

But I can also plead with my left hand.

So if you're really good at making dumplings, you can do it all.

- Okay we have to go to Q and A in one minute, but I really really wanna ask you this question, because I'm just intrigued, because both of you, all of my guests, grew up in restaurant families.

Can you talk about where you learned to make dumplings?

Not soup dumplings, different kinds of dumplings, and how many you had to make over the years.

- So when I, yeah so typical immigrant story.

Came to the states, my parents were professionals and Taipei but couldn't do what they did.

So somehow they ended up in the restaurant business, and I spent, if I wasn't physically in school, I was in the restaurant.

And when I was eight years old, I started making all the wontons for our restaurant, so I did wontons.

Dumplings, I made, we didn't sell dumplings, like pot stickers, because it was very labor intensive, and people want cheap food.

They want Chinese food to be cheap, so.

So we would make that at home, and many many years of, again, I've tried to venture a count, but it's hard.

A lot.

And in the last five, six years I've been teaching pot sticker classes, and I have to say, I am the best at teaching pot stickers.

I have taught many of them, I have had hundreds of students.

Now with Zoom, I just did a class the other day through 92nd Y, so with a lot more people from across the country.

But yeah teaching, so by not only growing up making dumplings, but also teaching how to make dumplings, just adds another level, and layer of understanding of the mechanics around dumplings.

So ask me anything.

AMA, AMA.

- AMA Q and A, that brings us perfectly into our Q and A now.

So one question, you can all answer but I'll start with Brian and Mark.

People wanna know, what are your thoughts on Eleven Madison Park going vegan?

For those who don't know, that's a very fine dining restaurant in New York City that's been called by some the best restaurant in the world, and the chef announced very recently that when they reopen, all of the food is going to be vegan.

So you can't crutch on butter or cream any longer.

- I think it's bold, and I think it's exciting.

They, our entire industry needs to move that direction.

- It's the way we're all going.

But we don't have to go that far.

But I love that they're taking that step.

- And not every restaurant could, it's really hard to do.

So nice to be rated one of the top restaurants in the world, and have sort of the ability to do it.

But I love that leadership, and I love that we're moving that direction.

It's just, you're gonna see that all over the world, and we need to go there.

- And like, that's what fine dining should be doing, is bringing, you know like a really fancy luxury car comes out with a feature, and then 10 years later all the cheaper cars have that same feature as standard.

That's what the great chefs of the world are doing, I think that's what Daniel's doing.

Like, he's gonna pave a way to teach and help other restaurants be able to get off their meat kicks, and be more open.

Because when the great restaurants do it, it helps all the others be able to follow.

- And with your new chef, I know that she'll have a lot of autonomy to do what she wants to do.

But do you anticipate adding a little bit more of a vegetarian flare, or meatless Monday, or something like that?

- We won't be meatless Monday.

We've kind of been moving that direction for five or six years now, and I'll tell you, it's not easy to do.

You know, people come in and they have a certain mindset about what a special, or what the big night out is gonna look like.

- Yeah, or what expensive food looks like.

- Right so you know, wow I'm paying this much money for celery, it just doesn't feel as cool as your dollar-fifty lobster in 1950.

So we're, but we've been moving that direction, you know, pretty steadily for a number of years now, and that's one of the exciting things, I think about Aisha, is just her ability to make a mushroom, or a piece of celery taste as good as a piece of fish - Yeah, we really hope the world continues to move towards protein being the compliment to the veg as the star.

- Yup.

- Yeah.

- That's where we need to go for our bodies, and for our environment.

- Yep.

- Well, Hsiao-Ching, I mean you just did a whole new vegetarian version of your first book, so I'm sure you can relate.

You hear a lot about in other cultures where the meat is used sparingly, and it is usually a lot of vegetables.

But in this country, it is like slap a big steak on the table, and have a little side salad.

So was the cookbook, did it come from people asking for those versions of the recipes, or just something that you wanted to do?

- Actually, these are not necessarily vegetarian versions of meat filled dishes.

These aren't just vegetable-centric dishes, and vegetables-centric cooking.

And what I have to say is that you know, a lot of these cuisines, global cuisines, already have a huge tradition of plant-based cooking.

And so it may be that a fine dining restaurant leads the way in the developed world.

But really, this type of food, this type of cooking, this type of eating, has been around for centuries, right, because meat is expensive.

The reason there, you know, a lot of stir fry dishes are mostly vegetables is because meat is expensive.

Fuel is expensive.

So yeah, it's more vegetable-centric.

So I think to Mark and Brian's point about having a place like EMP sort of show the way to those types of restaurants, I think there's absolutely a great value in that.

But I just wanna speak up for cuisine in the sense that a lot of us had been eating this way for a long time, and there are a lot of chefs out there who are already doing this work.

So you know, we have different perspectives.

- Let's see, what are all of your favorite local Seattle dishes, just to put you on the spot.

We can go down the line, whoever can think of their, first thing that comes in your mind.

- Rice cakes with spicy sausage at Joule.

- Ooh, that's a good one.

- Jam, it's my favorite thing in the world.

(all talk at once) And these aren't the kind of rice cakes that my grandma would keep in her purse smeared with peanut butter, these are the ones that are closer to chewy noodles with rice flour.

- Yeah.

Yasuko Teriyaki, chicken teriyaki.

- Oo, that's very Seattle classic dish, yeah.

- Henry's Donuts on the Mukilteo Speedway.

- Oo, I always drive by that and I wonder.

That's good?

- Don't go by without getting some.

You will thank yourself, they're so good.

- Okay.

- It's a guilty pleasure, we do it all the time.

- Let's see what else?

Okay, dishes you don't like, or foods you don't like.

I think a lot of people in the food world, we're not very picky.

But is there something that you don't wanna eat?

I don't know why uni is consumed.

- Oh, it's so good.

We have to eat it now that it's taking over the world.

- The reproductive organs of this like, - They know what it is.

Yeah, you just don't like it.

- It's just the worst.

That's my least, for sure.

I hate it so much.

- It's like cheese of the sea.

- It is really not his, - Oh, no!

- I don't know, you're not a big fan of abalone either.

That dancing one in China was kind of freaking me out.

- Oh man, (mumbles) I didn't nearly, I nearly threw up at the table.

(mumbles) - Just bleed from his face, it was terrifying to kind of see, but.

Foods that I don't like.

- You like everything.

- Yeah, I don't know.

No.

Nope, don't have.

- You'll eat anything, anything, anything?

- Mike?

I mean, does that connect you at all?

What do you not like, Hsiao-Ching?

- I don't like raw onions.

I'll eat them cooked, but just something, it's just so sharp.

- Wait, are you in moderation?

- I don't like raw onions, I can't digest them very well.

Especially like big, gigantic onion rings, like on a burger or something, or.

- Don't have to go big gigantic, what about like salsa is a great application of the raw onion.

Like, just a little onion in salsa just helps, you know?

- Yes.

But when I do that, I mince the onions so fine that it's not this giant, chunky piece of thing.

Like I like the flavor of that in that application, but in general, no.

- You're not like an onion apple eater, you don't just sort of like (chomps).

- Oh yeah.

Apparently, I don't know if it's an Eastern Washington thing to have a peanut butter onion, peanut butter raw onion sandwich.

I just learned about this a couple of years ago.

- That'd be hard, that'd be hard.

- No.

- Yeah, no.

- I tried the peanut butter pickle this year, that was actually really good.

Have you tried it?

- Yeah, I haven't had one yet.

Have you had one?

- I have not.

- It's good.

- I'll be honest, it's not been a great year for us for getting out.

We've been a little - What?

We've been a little behind.

It's weird, yes.

But you know, and you get all all busy body, but yeah.

I'm looking forward to that again.

I'm looking forward to branching out and exploring this town in a way that we all used to.

- No, but you can get that that rice cake dish to go any night, man.

- Nice.

Okay guys, we're out of town.

We're out of town, we're out of time.

We're not out of town.

Thank you so much everyone for being here today.

That was Mark and Brian Canlis' last meal.

Go to canlis.com to see what they're up to because they're always up to something fun.

They had mentioned earlier that starting tomorrow, you can order these care packages for the people you love in your life, so canlis.com.

And thanks to Hsiao-Ching Chou.

Make sure to pick up one or both of her cookbooks, "Chinese Soul Food," and "Vegetarian Chinese Soul Food."

And self-promotion, if you've never listened to "Your Last Meal" before, and you liked it, which you might if you're still here, make sure and subscribe so you never miss an episode, and you can follow along on Instagram at hello Rachel Belle, B-E-L-L-E.

Thank you so much everyone for joining us today.

I am privileged, perhaps, to be the caboose of this Crosscut Festival.

This is the very last program of the entire deal.

I think we started on May third, so five days of amazing programming.

A reminder that you can actually go back and watch the older sessions that you missed.

So make sure and go back, watch what you missed, maybe you wanna watch this one again, I don't know.

Have a great weekend everyone.

This was "Your Last Meal"