[exciting music] ♪ ♪ - Hello, and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a Professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is writer Zack Kaplan.

Zack, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Thanks for having me.

- Zack, you have written a recent comic called Metal Society, which I had the chance to read before we started recording today, and it's a really interesting twist on I guess some classic science fiction tropes.

I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the development of Metal Society and what brought you to Top Cow and Image Comics?

- This is actually my third book with Top Cow and Image, and I had kind of done a lot of hard science fiction with them.

This idea really came from a lot of different places.

First and foremost, I think I like reading a lot about futurism and technology, and it's very common knowledge that there's a lot of discussion about the future and robots and automation and AI taking our jobs and nervousness and feelings about that, and so I found that very fascinating and I thought, what better landscape than a story where that is flipped and the robots are in charge and have taken over and humans have had our shot and blown it, and then robots resurrect humans to do the jobs that they don't want to do.

That created a very interesting platform to kind of explore tribalism and culture clash and just our relationship with each other.

So it all stemmed from a lot of that, and then the other facet of it is the story centers around an MMA style boxing fight between a robot and a human, and they're using this to settle, if you could call it settle, who is supreme.

Do humans deserve to be part of the society or not?

And that all stemmed from a fight I saw in 2019 I believe with Conor McGregor, and I always mess this name up, but Khabib, Conor and Khabib, and it was a very charged fight both in the ring and politically in the sense it was really about a lot of what was going on with Russia and Khabib's homeland in Eastern Europe, and long story short, I kind of learned that a fight can be more than just a fight, and that really interested me to look at the framework for social tensions around a fight drama and how it might play out with this landscape, robots versus humans.

- What I find really interesting about sci-fi in general, and this I guess goes back to my love of Star Trek, is that you can take a social issue and you can kind of put it into the future or this sci-fi environment and kind of let audiences ruminate about something that's happening now, but let them think that it's not real.

I do see a lot of these social issues that you're talking about in this first issue that I had the chance to read.

So when you're choosing to write in a style, I know you do a lot of sci-fi.

Is it the fact that you can make a point about contemporary society but have an audience accept it a little bit more because you're working in sci-fi, or is it just something wherever the story takes you, that's what's gonna happen?

- I really like to write, I really like to see and read thought-provoking stories, and I think that it comes from, first and foremost, my love of talking about things and having something that does more than just entertain me.

So when I sit down to come up with a story, I like to come up with narratives that don't just excite us.

Robot versus human fighting, it's exciting, but I think there's also some interesting, thought-provoking topics, and I'm not certainly bringing any answers.

I don't have a lot of answers when it comes to how to solve some of society's divisions right now or how we seem to be engaged in a lot of blood sport in social media and just kind of watching each other tear ourselves apart.

But I think it's interesting subject matter to read about in the framework of robots versus humans.

And what's interesting here is that the robots are robots, but they're very human in nature in a lot of ways.

They've modeled their society after their creators, humans.

Because the robots are humanesque, it gives us a kind of a chance to see a human on human experience in a way.

So yeah, I like when science fiction has parallels to modern society in abstract ways.

Everyone could kind of take something a little different from it, but it makes you think.

- One of the things that I thought about was it's an interesting dynamic, because humans are the underdog in this.

The species is sort of taken a backseat to the robots who kind of just brought us back for, I guess, fun to see what would happen if they could create something.

But as a reader, what I found myself doing was because I'm not gonna root for the robots because that's not my species and I can't feel any sort of like well, this is anti-this or it's anti-that, I could kind of put myself in the, the role of Rosa, our heroine, and just kind of be taken into that story.

Maybe if I'm a reader and I could look at another point of view as a result because I'm probably not going to take the authority side, and I don't know if you do that in another issue or not, but it gave me a chance to sort of explore themes that are going on in society now and put myself in that different point of view, because that's sort of the way that you set this up.

So when you're creating a character like Rosa, somebody who is thinking about why and why can't I, are you kind of asking these questions yourself and trying to solve them, or again, is it just this is a compelling story and I've just gotta tell it?

- I think both, but absolutely as a storyteller and crafting this character and how we meet this character in the first issue, it's very important to set up the context.

Humans are literally being grown in laboratories in the same way that we make robots now, and they're given a very kind of haphazard birthing process and education process and then let out into the world.

All the robots put the humans in this kind of shanty town human settlement in the middle of this spectacular robot city, so it's very important to set up this protagonist and what they're coming into, and she actually comes into the world very optimistic and hopeful.

She sees this amazing city and she thinks oh, well maybe I'll get to be part of this.

It's not until she learns that she's required to work in these trash fields cleaning up trash, doing the jobs the robots don't want to do, and they're worked very hard and they're told that they're just human that she begins to develop a resentment and kind of a fighting spirit to show that maybe humans do deserve to be more.

I think that having her start in a hopeful place and then dashing that against the trash is really important to set up where this fighting spirit comes from, because I think that you don't just start off wanting to fight something.

You want to be a part of it, and then when you're rejected, it's a very human experience, I think.

So yeah, it's very important to not just set up human versus robot, but to explore the humanity behind this kind of situation.

And actually the story does look at the robot perspective in future issues.

I was very drawn to fight dramas, not just like Rocky, but a film like Rush, for example, which looks at those two drivers and other fight dramas that look at kind of both athletes and both challenger/champion and what's going on.

Looking at the dual storylines really gives you more perspective on the story, and even though you may side with the human naturally, seeing the drives and the sociological pressures from the robot side as well really creates a complex situation.

You don't know how it's gonna play out.

- Another thing that I think is interesting is we view technology as being sort of disposable.

There's only so long you're going to keep your cell phone until you have to get the next model.

There's that planned obsolescence in just about everything we buy, and in the book, humans are sort of that disposable commodity, which is kind of a fascinating twist on things, because in the grand scheme of things, we do have an expiration date, and it's interesting because when I look at science fiction from the 1960s or the 1950s, there's an optimism there.

When I see science fiction in contemporary times, there's, I don't want to say a pessimism, but there's certainly a realism that is put into that.

So when you're kind of building these future worlds, are you envisioning what the future will really be, or are you kind of saying this just seems to be the path that things are going in and this is what audiences today will believe?

- It's so interesting.

I'm probably just a product of my own life and upbringing.

I say that I grew up kind of in Spielbergian times as a dreamer of science fiction and a sense of optimism and idealism, and now in modern times, I do find myself a little cynical and a little nihilistic and a little concerned.

I still have hope, and I think that often, I like to look at stories about an ordinary person in these sort of world gone mad landscapes and what is required of them at that time.

How do they maintain their hope and their ideals, and when should they fight and when is it hopeless or futile?

And that's just something that appeals to me, but I think I always try to have a sense of hope, but it's really just a question of how to maintain it in a world that's moving so fast.

I think these humans in this story have only been resurrected and brought back to life for 10 years or so, and they're making more and more of them, but they're adapting.

So it was really important to create a situation that was fluid and new and felt a little out of control, which I think is very modern.

Our own world is changing so fast in so many ways, in so many unexpected ways.

I think that it just inherently comes from the things that I'm interested in and my outlook of trying to find hope in a fast changing world.

- You brought this project to Top Cow and to Image Comics.

When you're looking for someone to partner with to get your work to the public, what sort of things are you looking for in order to make sure that you reach the broadest possible audience?

Because from what I understand, Metal Society is one of their top selling titles right now.

So I'm just wondering what goes into your decision making when you partner with someone?

- It's important when you're pitching a story to find a publisher that really believes and shares your vision and is excited to put energy behind it, and the same goes of the collaborators.

The artist Guilherme Balbi and colorist Marco Lesko, our letterer Troy Peteri.

You know, everyone comes together.

You really share this idea and talk about all the different ways that you can bring it to fruition.

I think a strong vision and just a love of the idea and the concept, and then everyone working together.

That's comics for you.

I think if you're looking at comics and you see something that really is standing out, it's usually because everybody on all levels is really passionate and fighting for that story.

- I love it when people think of the collaboration as more than just the sum of the parts.

It's that magic when if you were in a band, let's say, it's not just Paul McCartney writing a song.

It's The Beatles performing the song, you know?

So when you are working with an artist, how do you make sure that your idea is getting across?

Obviously you'll write a script up, but is this something where you're having maybe a video conference or phone calls to try and make sure you're on the same page, or do you just trust that your partners are going to do the right thing?

- I think that it's actually a different perspective.

I think that there's so many different ways to make a comic.

There's a broad range here, but for me personally, I find the best results are really bringing my idea and my vision in terms of here's the story.

Here's what I see it, here are the themes and overcommunicating as much as I can, and then yeah, listening to see what stands out to the artist, what are their ideas and really creating conversation amongst all the creatives at all levels, from the publisher all the way down to the letterer.

I definitely am a very detail-oriented creator.

In addition to a script or a pitch package, I put sometimes world bibles together that talk about all the different looks.

Sometimes I'll find photo references, but it has to be a malleable thing and it has to really change.

The comic that you envision at the onset is never the comic at the end because everyone is bringing their own vision into it and it's becoming something better.

I really think that it has to be that conversation.

I absolutely have added conference calling and Zoom calling at any point in time that I can into the collaborative process with artists.

Talk about technology connecting us.

Guilherme and Marco are in Brazil.

I've worked with artists all around the world, from England to Italy to Asia.

We're all communicating with technology to try to make great comics.

At the end of the day, it's about everyone having the same core idea that they're trying to get across.

In Metal Society, it was about division.

There are so many aesthetics and visual motifs that we tried to inject into the comic from the cover work all the way down to the layouts and the colors.

The colors are warm for the human side and cool for the robot side.

So it's about trying to find ways to show that this is a society divided at every level and how can then we offer the promise of uniting that society.

So I think that the more that you can have a clear vision, communicate with your team, the better the comic and the better the story is.

- I was taken with the art, because I'm thinking back.

I think there are two, maybe three pages where it's double page spreads.

Instead of being a single image, it's a series of smaller panels along the bottom or along the side.

I was taken by that because it lets you capture the spectacle of the event, this lead up to this MMA-style fight, but also it lets you get into that human element, which is funny because there's the human element of the robot fighter who's doing sort of the same thing, getting ready for the fight, going through the preparation.

You mentioned that you're going to be getting into the mindset of the robots a little bit.

I don't want you to spill the beans too much, but can you kind of share what the common threads might be between the humans and the robots, the folks who have everything and the people who want a little bit of something?

- It's funny that you brought up the opening, because the first page shows the robots and the humans going into different entrances into the stadium, and then the next two pages show both fighters getting ready almost in identical ways, but having different thought processes.

I think that's the secret, is that the robots are not too different.

They've taken over where humanity, we don't know what happened to humanity.

We've had our shot and blown it, which is not a big surprise when I tell anybody that, but robots have taken over, but robots know they were created by humans and they're living in human-like cities in human like lives, trying to be human in a lot of ways.

They all have drives.

They all have functions that they like to do.

One of the central conflicts here is that humans are wanting to be part of society and do more.

What happens when the humans start to take those functions away from the robots, which is of course the allegory that I talked about at the beginning of us being worried that robots are taking our jobs.

Here it's flipped.

Even though the robot reacts in a very analytical way, it's still an emotion of being replaced, of being rejected.

What is my place in society and how do I defend that?

And then the pressures that robot kind put on the robot fighter are not too different than the pressures that humankind puts on the human fighter in terms of we need you to win, you're in this for all of us, and this fight is really no longer about proving can one side be a part of the other.

It's just who's better.

There's a lot of parallels to what we go through today.

I think that without giving too much more away about the robots, I think they're going through a very human experience, too.

- That's a great way to put it.

I'm thinking back to our conversation before we started recording our show today.

You mentioned that you are currently working on about seven different projects, and I'm just wondering, everybody has only so many hours in a day, only so many days in a week.

So how are you sort of scheduling your time so that you can hit deadlines for projects that you already are working on, have time to develop projects that you are excited about and then have to do maybe the business end and then maybe have to do all that family stuff and then go to sleep.

So how do you sort of balance your day out?

- It's a disaster, Terence, of just pages flying everywhere and night sweats.

It's challenging, but I'm learning.

I've only been making comics, I'm going into my fifth or sixth year now.

I'm newish, but I'm starting to kind of understand the rhythms of working on many titles at once.

It's really about just the conveyor belt of understanding and planning things out.

One of my favorite creators, Jeff Lemire, described the whole process like a line cook and just understanding what's coming at every turn and knowing when scripts need to be ready and when art and colors and letters, and just being able to map out a production schedule and try to follow it and plan accordingly and knowing how long it takes you to write a script and understanding how many pages you can get done in a week and how many scripts you can get done in a month.

Obviously there's always catch up and there's always delays and things that happen, but for the most part, I think it's about being organized and being realistic to what you can accomplish and what's doable.

I am working on about seven or so projects, but for example, Metal Society, I'm writing the last issue right now of that of five issues, so when something's coming out, I had been working on that.

In turn, there are projects that I have written the first issue for and now am working with a new artist just to start in on designs.

There are odd pitches that I'm sending out.

There's a lot of different levels, but you also work on what's burning hot.

A pitch is gonna wait a little bit, whereas a script that has to be dialogue polished so the letterer can get it out the door and get it off to the printer, that has to happen sooner.

It's always a learning curve.

I think every comic creator's experience is different, but you have to be a little organized and understand the big picture to balance so much.

- One of the other things that creators today have to balance is the fact that their IP is attractive to other mediums, and with so many streaming services, there are a lot more opportunities for ideas to possibly become more than just comics.

So is this something that you're exploring, and if so, how do you sort of navigate those different waters?

- Yeah, actually I was very fortunate.

My first three comic series, Eclipse, Port of Earth and Lost City Explorers were all optioned for TV adaptation.

Right now, Port of Earth is with Amazon Studios being adapted as a TV show, and very far along in the development process with a pilot already written.

So it was something that I wasn't entirely prepared for, just excited to try my hand at making a comic and kind of found this whole other aspect of it.

It's a very exciting aspect, and comic creators, again, there's a range.

Some comic creators take on the adaptation of their own material from the onset.

Some pass it off to other film and TV professionals to do.

Each project is different, but I think anyone who's reading comics or watching TV shows, well, maybe not anyone watching TV shows, but there are a lot of comic adaptations in the film and TV market.

There's a wave of original series that have already been adapted and more coming out.

It's a very exciting time for the adaptation process.

I think as a creator, you just have to understand that it's a different medium.

Something going from a comic to television, for example, it's going to change a bit as it goes into that form, and you just want the same ideas to come across in the same overall concept, but these are different mediums with a lot of different rules.

- You talk about this, different mediums, different rules, but you kind of have to get into another form of collaboration, because if you're working on a television series, you have your director, you have your camera people, you have your editors, you've got the actors who are going to bring these characters to life, so it's another opportunity for you to collaborate and maybe make the story a little bit better.

As somebody who has collaborated with artists and letterers and color artists and editors before, how do you sort of make that shift so that way you can say I can still do this, it's just maybe a little bit of a learning curve.

- For example, with Port of Earth, I teamed up with a show runner, and the producer that we teamed up with on that is Robert Kirkman of The Walking Dead.

I think it's really important that if you are taking your content and you are being fortunate enough to have the opportunity to adapt it into another medium, to surround yourself with people that do know what they're doing and have done this before and share your ideas with openness and the willingness to compromise.

I guess there are moments where you have to fight for your vision or say I really believe in this, but again, all of this is a collaborative process.

In terms of talking to anyone, whether it's an actor or a set designer, anytime for the first time, I think it's really just about, there's almost just an essence as one creative to another to say hey, here's my vision for this and here's what I was thinking, but also, what are you thinking?

Does this resonate with you?

And to start conversation, because everyone wants to bring their own vision and perspective to the work, and you can't have it be too one-sided.

The best art that I've seen in comics comes from having those conversations and having those epiphanies about oh, well then we can do this or oh, what about this aspect?

And bring that out.

I'm a firm believer in that sort of approach.

I have yet to have any of my content actually with actors yet.

All of the content is still in development and in scripting phases of the process, but I think if I found myself in that position, it would be the same approach just to say here's my thought on this and what do you think?

- Well Zack, they're telling us we have about a minute left in our conversation.

If the folks watching at home wanted to find out more about your upcoming products, where can they find you on the web?

- I have a website, ZackKaps, Z-A-C-K-K-A-P-S.com, and I'm also on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and all those @ZackKaps.

Yeah, reach out.

- Zack, I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

The half hour's flown by and it's been a great conversation.

- Thanks for having me.

- I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching Comic Culture.

We will see you again soon.

[exciting music] ♪ [exciting music] Comic Culture is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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