from WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on Black Friday, 20 years ago.

Can you remember the shopping mania that became a tradition for many people on the day after Thanksgiving as a television news reporter at the time, I was often the guy who had to stand out in the freezing cold, interviewing shoppers who had waited all night in line just to try to get one of the sale items at Best Buy or one of our local malls.

How things have changed.

There's not a lot of Black Friday overnight madness anymore.

Some retailers are proclaiming this to be Black Friday week, trying to convince you to look for sales.

The reality is that internet killed the radio store.

I was going to sing that in the video.

Killed the Radio star, but I decided against it.

Probably better for everybody.

But internet also killed the clothing store and many other stores.

There's a narrative that the pandemic is largely to blame for this, and it drove us all online permanently.

But retailers were shutting down before 2020.

This hour, we're going to take a little trip down memory lane to see if you can remember the many local stores that are now gone.

And if you can guess when they closed from the recent departures, like forever 21, Big Lots, Party City, Joann fabrics to the earlier expirations like Sears, Lord and Taylor Stein Mart.

What were your favorite stores that have since passed into the retail afterlife?

And before we get too maudlin, first of all, my colleague Veronica Volk is going to fight us about retail.

She thinks it's going to stay in some way, and there's some big news happening in our area.

Big retail names who are opening new stores in 2025 and 2026.

In this economy, Bass Pro is going to move into Eastview Mall late next year, and Boscov's recently opened at Greece Ridge Mall.

In just a few minutes.

We're going to welcome Jim Boscov himself to discuss how they are trying to resist all these doomy trends.

So maybe an obituary for Black Friday shopping.

Or maybe not today.

Veronica Volk executive producer and director of podcast strategy for WXXI Public Media and retail fan.

>> And native of New Jersey, which is the.

That's a big one of malls and retail.

It's my qualification for this.

>> Our main qualification Brian Sharp Investigations and enterprise editor for WXXI News.

who is maybe not the most proficient mall shopper?

>> No malls.

yeah.

I used to be able to go.

Usually on the holidays I would go to a mall for my only time of the year, and within an hour be so stressed out.

I would leave.

>> When's the last time you were in a mall?

>> I do not know.

>> You do not remember.

And you're not from Rochester originally.

You're from the Midwest?

Yep.

You got malls there though?

>> Yeah, we had one.

>> We did.

>> I think there's been more built since.

>> But.

Okay.

Well, then why, Veronica, are you like, an optimist that that somehow we're gonna resist this storm of closures?

>> Okay, so thanks for starting with me.

I don't think that's really fair.

My my idea for this hour is to try to insert some optimism into the retail landscape, because I feel like we talk about how retail is dying all the time.

>> Because it's dying.

>> Well, there are some trends that indicate that it might not be completely dead.

Maybe it's always dying, but it'll never fully die is the better way of looking at it.

Give me a public media or magazines.

>> Don't compare retail to public media.

Oh my gosh, no.

But what's an example of a trend that.

>> Here's a trend.

Okay, so we talk about Gen Z a lot as sort of the new arbiter of culture.

And what is cool and what is worth investing in data from a few different surveys shows that more than half of Gen Zers want to shop in person.

That's a higher percentage than millennials or Gen Gen X or any other generation.

And I think a lot of that is because of the shift towards more experience in the retail shopping arena.

Like if you go to a place like Eastview Mall, you're not just going to have stores, you're going to have places to do things lik*'s Sporting Goods has like an entire sports complex we saw recently.

I have a story coming out in City magazine that sees we have a trampoline park opening at Eastview Mall.

There's like a lot of new things opening in malls and even like over in Greece, not only do you have Boscov's entering the scene, but we have Apple Cinema, which is a luxury movie theater, so there's a lot more to do.

>> You also have the DMV there, which felt kind of sad when I had to go there recently.

>> Okay, here's my pitch for the hour mall.

The mall is the new town square for America, and it's a it's it's going back in that direction because we did see a lot of movement towards digital during the pandemic, when people were excited about the digital utopia that we were entering.

But I think people are a lot more skeptical of the time we spend online now, and they're looking for more in-person experiences.

>> All right, so you've got the mall as the town square.

I'm trying to find out who is the New York Times reporter who said that malls are our Roman Coliseum.

>> I think that's a great that's great.

That's wonderful.

People love the Roman Coliseum now.

>> No, but the point is, it's decaying.

People tour the remains of a once great structure that has fallen apart.

>> I think that's true of dead malls and even dead malls.

I mean, now they're the sites of documentaries and a lot of great mural art.

>> Here's the piece.

Shopping malls are the Roman ruins of our civilization.

>> And the New York Times is an elitist organization.

So.

>> Wow, you're really on fire.

>> Today.

>> Kelly, in the New York Times.

Okay, Brian Sharp.

So Roman ruins or public square?

Town square?

>> You know, I think it depends on the community.

I was actually thinking back, a job before this.

One of the things was they they built 1,000,000 square foot shopping mall.

And in the neighboring town, which siphoned every major box, big box retailer from every other shopping mall, strip mall, I shouldn't say.

Well, yeah, and shopping mall.

in that metro area.

to go fill that space.

So I mean, you look here, you have, you know, Eastview, and you have Greece Ridge, and you have the mall in Henrietta.

That is marketplace blank there for a minute.

it's very.

different stories for each.

It seems to be moving that way.

Yeah, yeah.

>> Okay.

Yeah.

So.

So we can't we're not sustaining three, four, five malls in a city in a region like this.

>> Right.

And Henrietta, town supervisor will tell you that, you know, the retail focus of Henrietta shifted east.

Now it's Jefferson Road, basically, not Highland.

>> Now that's interesting.

I mean, frankly, on a different day, I'd love to know what's going on in places like Waterloo Premium Outlets, which is, you know, cool place to go.

And I've been there, but I imagine they're hurting just like anybody else is hurting.

you know, in the second half of the show, we're going to do, we're going to quiz Veronica and Brian on retailers open or closed.

And if it closed, what year did it close?

It's such a longer list than I was prepared for, because last week when I saw some of the recent closures, I thought, oh, well, you know, maybe we'll do a have a conversation about what is recently closed.

And then the just if you go back one more year and one more year, I mean, the last decade, it's a lot.

And so, Veronica, what you grew up with, what I grew up with.

Brian, not so much because, you know, he had one mall and he didn't really go there, but.

>> Gateway Mall.

>> What was it called?

>> Gateway mall.

>> Gateway mall.

Gateway to what?

>> I guess retail.

And.

Yeah, I don't know, it's it's bigger.

It's still.

>> Thriving.

Utopia.

>> You know.

>> What's that?

Gateway to capitalist utopia.

>> Yes, yes.

>> I thought you were gonna say gateway to the Midwest.

Gateway to Nebraska.

Perhaps.

Whatever.

>> Yeah, I don't know.

>> Okay, so anyway, gateway malls were.

Brian grew up.

I grew up with just kind of like Rochester.

Veronica.

I had a probably 4 or 5 in the Cleveland area that I would go to, and they had different personalities and some had different stores.

some had the same stores.

Most of them are now gone.

Where you grew up in New Jersey.

They've got to be, well, I don't know.

>> New Jersey has 28 malls, New Jersey has more enclosed malls per square mile than anywhere else in the country.

And eight of those malls, by the way, have a Boscov's, including the one at Ocean County Mall where I grew up.

So shout out to my hometown mall for seeing into the future.

but also, I mean, just like culturally, I grew up in a place where the mall was in many ways like a third place for people where I knew a lot of people who worked in retail.

There were restaurants.

Applebee's was like a big anchor store, a big anchor dining place in my hometown mall.

And it was a place where a lot of teenagers spent their time.

On Friday nights.

because it was like, safe and well lit and indoors.

And I just think that that contributes to a lot of like the cultural love of malls, which I'm here to represent.

And you could see in a movie like Mallrats by Kevin Smith.

>> You loved Morris.

>> From New Jersey, by the way.

>> Starring Jason Lee and Jason Lee's best work.

>> Yeah, well, I don't know about that.

I think, anyway, I was I thought you were gonna pull clips from Mallrats, actually, to start playing during.

>> The show.

No, but we should have, because that kid is back on the escalator, and I just.

>> But anyway, like, you'll see that sort of cultural affinity for malls because a lot of teenagers my age, your age, maybe spent their time there.

And I think, like when I talk about that Gen Z stat, you're seeing a little bit more movement back in that direction.

>> I mean, it's interesting when you see the surveys.

The question is I want to see it in practice.

If Gen Z is saying they want to go back to the malls and they want retail in person, I mean, I get it, but you got to see it actually happen and you got to see the numbers move.

And at this point, let's bring in someone who can talk about the future or maybe the present of the retail experience.

And that's Jim Boscov, chairman and CEO of Boscov's himself.

Hello, Jim.

Welcome to the program.

>> Well.

>> Evan, thanks so much.

It's very nice to meet you.

>> I mean, he's got, like, this Midwest sensibility, too.

He's nice to everybody.

Look at this.

Jim, I've listened to some of the.

I've listened to some of the interviews you've done with our colleagues in Rochester, and I want to probe a little bit about the idea that, as we are talking about closures here, you are opening a store in 2025.

And when a lot of people who aren't Veronica Volk because Veronica knows Boscov's from New Jersey for Rochester, Jim for Rochesterians who didn't know Boscov's, they thought, are they nuts?

What is going on here?

So but you've got the secret sauce.

What is it?

How is this going to work?

>> Well, it's it is working.

I have to say, first of all, that we've been so nicely welcomed by the people of Rochester.

Absolutely lovely, lovely crew of people, wonderful group of coworkers.

And we are, I will tell you, exceeding our expectations.

We're doing very well.

But and we're doing very well.

not just in Rochester, but we're doing very well, even in malls that have failed.

I know this is a discussion about malls, by the way, this morning I read that Kelly the article in the New York Times this morning, which I thought was a very nice ode to failing malls.

but they don't have to all be like that.

I think there are good mall developers and there are bad mall developers or bad mall owners.

and if you want to give you my take.

Excuse me, my take on that there are good mall developers like the Cafaro family.

We have several malls with them.

I have to give a shout out to Tom Wilmont, also of Wilmorite, for for making it possible for us to be there.

But then there are also mall owners who are buying distressed malls.

The process was accelerated by COVID when people weren't paying, stores were closed and people weren't paying their rent.

And this type of owner doesn't they?

They stop all services.

They don't do anything about cultivating new tenants.

They stop security, landscaping, maintenance, and they just collect their money and wait for them all to die.

And we're seeing that all over.

On the other hand, we are seeing malls where they're they're they're constantly cultivating saying goodbye to tenants that aren't working and, and cultivating relationships with, with concepts and ideas that are working.

And those malls will remain vibrant and vital.

>> Well, let me push on a couple of the points there.

I mean, I understand that there are some malls that are going to be better managed and better run than others.

No question.

But you can't necessarily do anything about the changing culture, which is that more people, huge numbers of people are simply shopping online.

They're not going to stores in person, and their habits have changed.

So I don't know what good management can do about that.

Can you can you elucidate on some of that stuff?

>> Yeah.

>> Yes, I would say part of our success is a combination of things.

We've got lots of products.

So we've got a very vast range of departments.

And each department we've got a very wide assortment.

Our pricing is better than most people are going to find anyplace else.

We've got salespeople on the floor who are knowledgeable and empowered to help, and we're member of the community.

We have a personality, and I credit the fact that we're a private company as opposed to a corporate, a big corporation that is listening to the stock market.

but there are certain things that you, if you make if you make an environment friendly enough, you'll entice people to come in.

There are certain things that I buy online.

There are commodities that people buy online.

But shopping in a brick and mortar store is both a social event that you do with your friends and your family, but it's also something that you do.

When I buy a suit, I certainly want to try it on and see how it feels.

I'm told when a woman buys a dress, she wants to walk in it, see how it feels and how it moves.

When she's walking.

So, you know, while I may buy certain commodities online, there are other things I'm going to go into a store.

And if that store is inviting they're going to see me again.

>> See, this is where I want to say to Veronica, my colleague who is defending malls here.

I mean, I'm with Jim on everything he just said.

I like to try stuff.

I really struggled to buy clothes online.

Brian, you're a tall guy.

It's probably not easy to find a great fit if you only order it online.

And yet, at the same time, I don't know.

Gen Z is all just wearing pajamas out in public now.

Veronica.

So I guess, I mean, I'm looking at how much has.

>> Changed an unfair generalization.

I also do want to touch on.

So I'm sorry, Jim, did you want to say.

something?

>> I was going to say yes.

>> But when there's a prom or there's an event, they come in and they buy a suit.

I understand that they buy jeans and they buy other things.

I would say the other thing about malls is it's not just about shopping, it's about experiences.

So the good mall developers are bringing in wonderful restaurants.

They're bringing in other, other activities and, and, and events.

for one thing, we've been very good at almost every weekend about bringing in something, whether it was music or and for the grand opening, we had lots of local talent performing on the stage this past weekend.

We did in every one of our stores except the one in Greece Ridge, because we're just so darned busy there and it's a new crew.

But we had meet the photos with the Grinch and we had lines of we were handling.

By the way, who knew that the Grinch was going to be more popular than Santa.

>> Claus?

>> But he is.

And and.

>> And we had a line of 50 people and we were handling it pretty quickly.

but we had kids from, from really infants to, to to grown ups having their picture taken with Grinch.

>> Veronica.

>> It's an event.

>> Veronica.

Brian, you want to jump in here?

>> I just want to say that Jim touches on something that I've been thinking about, which is that well, we've talked about experiences, but also this idea that in-person shopping can really bolster e-commerce.

A lot of brick and mortar stores are opening, and their owners are, like traditionally more digital companies.

Like if you look at Eastview Mall, for instance, they have a new Fabletics store.

That's a that's an online company.

They opened a brick and mortar store.

In many ways, it's because that brick and mortar store is now like a living billboard for their online store.

So you talk about Gen Z, they're walking in in pajamas all the time while they're walking through the mall, and they're seeing the Fabletics store, or they're able to, like, go to the Fabletics store to make their return or exchange for more Fabletics items.

So in many ways, I think a lot of companies are considering their in-store operation as almost like an extension of their online store too, which could help.

>> What do you make of that, Jim?

>> Well, I want to I think that that's true.

I want to the other thing I want to talk about was the life cycle of a mall.

that article that you referred to in the New York Times, you know, the Berkshire Mall in reading.

I happen to live about three miles from there.

and what I'm missing it was the premier mall with all the stores.

And in one of the better parts of the city.

it's one of the better suburbs.

and it went through a phase that a lot of malls go through.

in this case, they they died over a long, over short period of time.

The, the Namdar, who is the one of the owners who buys malls that are failing took over, didn't do any maintenance.

And it is destitute except for us.

Now we're fortunate we have the critical mass.

We have friends.

We have relationships with our customers.

So we continue to do well even in those that are dead.

Like Frederick, Maryland the fairgrounds square in, in in reading a number of malls.

But what's going to happen here with the help of the municipality, who puts some pressure on the mall owner?

And this was covered in the article you referred to.

Namdar is going to sell it to a developer.

We introduced somebody who we're working with in the Exton Mall, who's going to who's going to knock down what's left there.

Our store will remain, and build a center that will attract people with current and contemporary things.

And it once again will be a vital and vibrant part, part of the city.

>> Brian Sharp do you want to jump in?

>> You know, I was.

>> Just thinking.

>> Oh, go ahead.

>> I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

Well, we've seen it happen in a couple days.

Granite run is a good example of that.

the developer that we're talking about is a guy named Peter Abrams.

He's doing it in Exton.

and he'll do it, and he'll do it in Wyomissing as well.

>> I was just going to similar I think you're seeing this in a lot of different sectors as well.

The office sector and elsewhere, that retail or whatever.

You can't just sort of open your space, flip on the lights, open the doors and expect people to come in the mall.

I was talking about where I was in Iowa, had the foresight to they built an ice rink in their mall, so they were hosting, and it was a venue that was in short supply for booking games, for just free skate, stuff like that.

So and they located it right beside the food court and, you know, then it feeds into the rest of the mall.

The sporting goods store was just, you know, around the corner.

but it's creating these different environments, creating activities like he was mentioning to augment your retail offering.

And I think that's where you see, particularly with the the malls that are continuing to exist and flourish, have those continued investment, continued opportunities, continued activities.

>> And really a hybrid of a lot of activity?

Brian Eno a hybrid of options activity for families.

I mean, I think I'm getting unfairly painted in this conversation.

It's like the anti mall person I am.

Not at all.

I really enjoy the energy, especially this time of year.

I know it's as Veronica joked, it's capitalist utopia, but I feel a ton of energy.

Or at least I can remember that for years.

>> I can feel the the room moving in my direction, and I'm really appreciating it.

>> Veronica is going to win this conversation, but but.

>> Jim, I want to.

I think Brian is making an important point, though, about these hybridized spaces.

And you were just talking about how in a different location, your store is going to remain, and then they're going to create a different kind of center around it and do do other things here.

Is there anything you can tell us about what you know about the future of Greece Ridge?

Do you expect it to look roughly like that around you, or have you been told that it will change?

>> I really don't.

I there's nothing that I know that specifically that I can tell you, but I do know that I can use I can use, for example, what we did in other malls that were heading in the wrong direction.

Okay.

And I'm not saying that about Greece Ridge, but I'm saying that we bring a tremendous amount of traffic.

And when we move in there, it's becomes more appealing to other people.

And when I look at what happened in St.

Clair's ville in Ohio and, and Youngstown and some of the other Caffaro malls we were put at the end of a of a wing that was pretty vacant.

And in six months to a year's time, it was pretty darn full.

So I would think that that the excitement that we bring, the traffic that we bring will bring some additional tenants of, of a variety of things.

I'm not just talking about retail stores, I'm talking about restaurants and other activities.

>> We're talking to Jim Boscov, the chairman and CEO of Boscov's.

And for Rochesterians, who didn't know the store before now you do with the opening at Greece Ridge just a few weeks ago and a lot of energy and for some, some surprise that, you know, in an era of store closures, here is a big opening happening.

Jim, you told our colleague Bret Davidson at Aihec that you're able to open stores despite other chains closing, because you really believe that being a private, privately held company makes all the difference in this case.

How does that help you here?

>> Well, it's really true.

because you can make decisions that are good for the long term health of the company.

I've seen so many public companies rush to do something to to have a good end, a good end to the quarter.

And it isn't always good for the long term health.

They were very much worried about what the analysts are going to say, what the market is going to say.

We know very clearly who we're working for.

We're working for the customer, and it just helps us make better, better long term decisions.

you know, every Friday I go to a different store and I hold a meeting in the morning and talk a little bit about the company, but much more talk about celebrating the successes of that store.

And I typically start a meeting by saying, how many of you have customers that know you by name?

And about 75% of the people raise their hand.

And then I say, how many people have have customers that know you by name?

How many do you know customers by name?

And that's all the difference in the world that that is having a personality and being there for and being there for a long time.

The other question we ask is how many people are here five years, ten years, 15 years?

It's not unusual in our stores that we have people 25, 30, 35 and 40 years old and that that also it you know, I talk about it as a one big family.

Being a family business just has a better culture.

>> Wow.

Okay.

So, Brian, you want to jump back in there?

Go ahead.

>> I was just curious.

I mean, with going back to your decision, what went into your decision of where to locate?

Because we have plenty of retail space here.

>> You mean in multiple malls?

>> Multiple malls or strip malls or whatever?

I'm wondering what attracted you specifically to Greece Ridge and how many sites did you way.

>> Okay, we try to open one store a year, but it depends on availability.

It wouldn't make sense for us to hopscotch around the country and open in Kansas City because they would say, Bosco, what in the world is that?

Is that chocolate?

but when we opened in, in Rochester six months before we opened, we held a luncheon for the nonprofits in the area, and we and at that luncheon, we had about 250 people.

And I said, how many of you have been to a Boscov's?

How many of you have heard of Boscov's?

I would say that 75% of the people had heard of us, 50% of the people had been to a Boscov's.

And that makes it so much easier, because if we can just push out our footprint a little bit or fill in space within our footprint, then people can say to their neighbors, hey, I know them.

They're really good.

Veronica can say to her neighbors, wait till we tell Boscov's opens, you're really going to like them.

So that's part of it.

The other part of it is that we need about 160 to 180,000ft, and frankly, nobody's building that kind of space.

So it depends on the availability of a big box someplace or space that can be reconfigured.

So if you look at Greece Ridge, what we did is we took all of Burlington, we used the lower level for retail space, and then we pushed out everything in in front of the mall.

We pushed that into the mall.

and made that retail space.

I say that, but I have to also talk about Jimmy's restaurant, because when I say we push that into the mall, I also, I know there was a big.

Kerfuffle, I guess is the word.

And the last thing we wanted to do was push them out.

In fact, I talked to Elaine and I invited her to be to take space within our store.

because I didn't for a couple of reasons.

I like I like good restaurants, but I also didn't want to be the bad guy.

She chose ultimately not to do that.

But for what it's worth, I wanted to bring that up here, too.

>> Well, Veronica, before we let him go, anything you want to jump back in here with?

>> I want to talk about the mailers.

Because if you live in Rochester, you have gotten so many mailers about Boscov's.

And, like, first of all, the first time I saw it, I was like, blast from my past.

But I wonder, Jim, what went into the marketing strategy for for you guys?

>> Okay, we've always been a very good print advertiser because we know that you can present a whole lot of information.

But I also know that subscriptions and penetration of circulation penetration has gone down dramatically.

So we continue to to we spent about $50 million a year in advertising.

We still spend a good portion in print, but I would say darn close to half of it has switched to digital slowly over over the last couple of years, trying to be smart about how we do it.

>> Okay.

>> Because I used to be able to walk into a room and say, how many of you get a newspaper, a daily paper delivered at home, and very few people do.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> That's true.

So you think that's still like one of the most effective ways to reach people where they are is just send them a piece, send them a mailer.

>> Well, it worked.

It worked for you, didn't it?

>> It sure did.

Yeah, I do, I think I think, but but I think you've got.

>> What we're learning and I think what marketing people would tell you is you've got to deliver a message that's relevant to the to your audience in a format that, that they'll see.

So if I want to advertise something to, you know, to, to on Tick Tock, it's got to be something that that customer is going to, is going to want.

And similarly, Facebook has a different demographic than Instagram.

And we we're learning as we go along.

So we're a little more conservative than many companies are just jumped into it with both feet.

But over the period of last couple of years, I think we've learned and we're getting that message out and it seems to be working because.

>> I'll.

>>.

Go ahead, Jim, I keep interrupting you.

Go ahead.

Sir.

>> Well, I say it's working because we continue to show increases, comp increases at a time that other other merchants are not.

So there's a lot that goes into it.

I'm very, very fortunate that I've got such a terrific team of people in every area of the buying and in the stores and in marketing.

it really takes a team to succeed.

And we've got a darn good team.

>> So I'm, we're going to wrap up with Jim here, and we're kind of going along on the promise time.

And I hope I'm not keeping you, Jim, but two more quick ones for you and we'll let you go.

briefly.

>> I'm.

>> Sitting in.

>> My car.

>> I know you're sitting.

You're a busy guy.

Jim, you talk about knowing how to make sure that the customer is first and making sure you have what they want.

Has that changed over the years?

And what I mean by that is, in general has the theme of what Boscov's does and offers changed because people are no longer buying X, or they're no longer buying Y, or they're more interested in something else.

Has that shifted in any sort of material way?

>> Absolutely.

And we see it very dramatically when we renovate a store.

I was always taught that when you renovate a store, new paint, new carpeting, you can expect about a 3% increase.

More recently, when we're renovating stores, we are reconfiguring them to give the space and and and emphasis on areas that are increasingly important.

So for example, ladies athletic wear was a very small area.

Now when we we renovate a store, it's a big area and we, we resize departments to reflect what people are looking for.

whether it's toys or the candy department.

And interestingly, the most recent stores that we've renovated, we've seen some very large increases because because of that, specifically in those areas.

>> And as I let you go, I know that you wouldn't have opened that when you open a store like this.

You understand that other retail outlets in a mall like Greece Ridge Mall may be struggling.

There have been other closures.

You understand that and that you feel confident that what Boscov's is going to do is going to essentially be independent of the rest of the health of the mall.

Although I have to think that you want to see it thrive.

So can you paint a picture?

Do you expect to be here in ten years?

Do you expect to be here in 20 years?

And do you expect that mall to look mostly the same just with other successful retailers?

>> I expect that we're going to be there ten, 20, 30 years or longer.

I believe the competition is good.

We present competition to other merchants.

I think we're going to make other people better.

We're not there to drive anybody else out.

But people who do get better will succeed.

I do not expect them all to look the way it looks today.

I think that over years, good developers continue to evolve and bring in things that are relevant to today's customer.

I think Boscov's is relevant today and we will continue to to to evolve, but hold on to the core principles that have made us successful.

And that's offering a tremendous assortment, good value and really personalized service.

>> I'm grateful for the time.

Jim, I know you are busy.

Thank you.

And our community has been very interested in this development.

A lot of excitement.

So talk to us again in the future.

We'll check in with you.

>> Well I'll look forward to that.

And again, I just I want to say thank you to you, but I want to say thank you also to all the customers that I've met over the last couple of weeks.

You've got a really lovely community.

And and while we have been struggling to keep up with it, your customers have been just gracious and fine.

So thank you.

Thank you very much.

>> That's Jim Boscov, chairman and CEO of Boscov's, now open in Greece Ridge Mall.

At a time when we're talking about a lot of other places closing and struggling, really remarkable story and Veronica Volk are you ready to run through a wall for retail now?

I mean, he's a pretty remarkable guy.

>> He's obviously knows what he's talking about.

Of course he would have to.

He's opening a, you know, an anchor department store in 2025.

I'm really interested in what he had to say about mailers, because I have to say, in our newsroom meeting this morning, we were talking about this show.

People were talking about mailers, and it's like everyone's getting these things in the mail.

And he's he's right.

I can't remember the last time I talked to somebody that I saw about a Facebook ad that I saw that came across my feed.

Right.

but there's certainly attention grabbing.

It's like everything old is new again.

So yeah, a lot to think about there.

He does seem like he knows a little bit more about what's going on at Greece than he's letting on, though.

Maybe there's a scoop there.

Brian.

>> I had a job to do to ask that question.

And yeah.

Is he going to tell us everything that he and the Wilmots talked about behind the scenes?

No, of course not.

Do you do you naturally think Brian Sharp it's fair to wonder if that conversation was like, okay, so you got the space.

What else are you doing?

Or is it going to be the DMV in there forever?

Probably.

They've had that conversation.

>> Yeah.

I imagine if you go into a place you want to see what their 5 or 10 year plan looks like, if you're making a five, ten year investment.

>> Yes.

So Brian and I are going to bust that story wide open at some point here.

Or maybe it'll be the DMV forever there.

I keep talking about the DMV, but I had to go there and it was kind of sad.

And it was kind of dark.

>> Well, the DMV maybe not the best example of this, but there are a lot more of the those small stores that speak to the experience of going to a mall.

And we've really we're talking about malls a lot, not just malls, but we want to talk about retail.

But in terms of just the mall if you look at a place maybe not Greece, I'm not as familiar with Greece Ridge Mall, but in Eastview that has multiple spas and a cat cafe, and the Bass Pro Shops is opening, an*'s Sporting Goods has the sports complex, and there's a Capital One cafe, which I can only imagine is kind of like the United Lounge, which is just a place.

>> I don't even know what that is.

>> I think it's a co-work space that's also like a coffee lounge.

there's like this thing called the Adventures in Play pop up, which is just like a little mini bounce house for like, kids.

Again, that intersection between like, kids entertainment and retail spaces.

So, yeah, I think he I think Jim has has an idea of how he's interpreting the trends in retail.

And it's interesting to see.

>> When did.

>> You come to Rochester.

>> 2005.

>> Okay.

>> So that was after Medley Center became Medley Center.

Ironically, mall became medley Center right around.

I probably was, I think in 2003 or 2004 when I arrived, one of my first jobs was covering the conversion of mall into Medley Center.

And Adam Bersin was the developer and county executive.

Maggie Brooks was there, and she was about how this was going to the mall of the future.

And I was like, you do know this thing called the internet?

The internet was new, and who knew it was going to be such a behemoth?

But Adam Bersin and Jim Boscov seem very different to me.

Adam Burston No offense to Adam Bersin, nice guy, outgoing, but he was selling something that was dying or that that was bleak and was trying to convince you that it wasn't Jim Boscov knows the deal.

He knows what is out there.

He sees things closing and he's basically saying they're putting a bet that they don't have to end up in that category if they do things really well, if the prices are good, if they're connected to communities, and if people do what Veronica says the survey say, which is people say they still want this.

So if you still want this, they're going to be there.

So I just thought that was really interesting.

Our thanks to Jim, let's take this break.

We're going to come back.

And when we come back we're going to go down.

The list.

Is your favorite former Black Friday store on the list of dead stores or soon to be dead stores, and if so, can our two guests?

Can they win the contest of guessing?

When did these stores die, or are they still alive?

That is on the other side of this break.

I'm Evan Dawson Tuesday on the next Connections lessons from history peace agreements in the past that have worked, and peace agreements that have failed.

The United States is currently engaged in trying to broker peace in a number of places around the world.

So what has worked and what has failed in the past?

A guest from the Democratization Policy Council in Europe joins us to tell us all about it.

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>> Com this is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

My colleagues Veronica Volk and Brian Sharp are with us as we survey the retail scene.

It's the week of Black Friday.

It used to be a very different scene.

you probably know that on the day after Thanksgiving.

Oh, really?

I knew people who left Thanksgiving dinner, like, with their kids, and they'd go wait in line overnight.

And that was the big event.

It was like a fun annual tradition that's mostly gone.

Although, Brian, you were kind of just wondering are there any sales or deals that, like, still advertised?

People are still I guess they're still advertising Black Friday.

I don't know that people are camping out overnight.

>> Yeah.

No, I went and I was checking and you know, the malls have their and they're all Walmart malls, but they have their opening three hours early or whatever it is, 7 a.m.

check out Black Friday deals, and they're promoting that.

You get the in-person experience as opposed to going online.

But I had looked before we came on here.

I got my first Black Friday email offer on October 1st, so it's been going on for a little while.

>> Aggressive, no.

>> Retail Friday.

>> Retailers want you in person.

Still.

>> If they want you in person.

First of all, they just need to send you a million mailers to your house, but also, I imagine.

>> You're hung up on these mailers.

>> I can't stop thinking about it.

here's what I here's what I'm looking out for, too.

This Black Friday is our malls are big stores going to hire influencers to make sort of waiting for that Black Friday sale, waiting in line, sleeping outside.

Are they going to make that an experience that people want to be a part of and try to turn that into like a trend.

>> You're talking about in big cities?

>> I'm talking about how how do you like thinking about marketing and thinking about the Gen Z component?

I'm looking for?

How will stores or companies use influencers to bring people back on Black Friday?

And that seems like a place that is like, ready for some, some TikToks and reels and all that stuff that the kids are into.

>> No, that's an interesting idea.

Also, I want to object to the idea that you said it was unfair that I said Gen Z goes out in pajama pants.

They do.

That's just a fact.

I don't know why that's unfair.

Like, that's people wear pajamas in public now, a lot.

>> I mean, I just think that's a perception, but sure.

>> What do you mean it's a perception?

>> The transportation secretary just did a whole thing of like, let's stop wearing our PJs.

>> We may do a separate show on that.

We may do a separate show on the fact that John Duffy, at a time when right after the Trump administration eliminated the the Biden administration plan or statute or law regulation, whatever the category is that says if you get your flight canceled and it's out of your control, they at least have to reimburse you in some way.

They have to give you credit for a future flight.

They've got to satisfy you for the harm they've done, and canceling your flight.

And the Trump administration comes down like we're not doing that anymore.

Like they can do whatever they want.

But by the way, Sean Duffy comes out to your point, Brian, is like the way we fix air travel is can you start dressing up more people?

Yeah.

>> Going like life is so painful.

Can you just let people wear sweatpants while they're doing it?

>> See, to me, number one, you can't go barefoot on a plane.

Nobody needs to see that.

However, otherwise, that's the place where it's okay to wear pajama pants.

I think, like you're on a flight.

Relax.

You're trying to sleep.

You're trying to be comfortable.

>> I think that's totally right.

Maybe not.

Like in a store, but in a okay in an airport.

>> So then.

But why are you claiming that?

It's just my perception that human beings of a certain age are wearing pajamas in public.

They are doing this.

>> Because it's my job is to challenge you, Evan is to be skeptical of the blanket statements that you make on the show.

I'm a stand in for the audience.

>> I never said everybody in Gen Z or.

>> Like really offending three of the younger people that are listening to your show right now.

>> First of all, I.

>> I'm sorry.

>> Wow.

>> We're going off the rails here, people.

>> First of all.

>> It is not offensive to Gen Z to say they wear pajama pants.

They like to be comfortable and they've chosen.

>> If you're a Gen Z and you're listening to Connections with Evan Dawson, please, please call into the show and tell us whether or not you are offended by the generalization that Evan Dawson.

>> I have a gen alpha son.

I mean, you probably know this like there's no way in the world our sons are ever wearing jeans.

They think that's formal wear.

>> I will say the first newspaper I worked at, the the lead sports reporter covering the Iowa Hawkeyes.

If it wasn't a media day, if he was just in the office, it was pajama pants.

>> What?

>> And he's probably 60 now.

>> Okay, now that is surprising.

>> There you go.

>> No, that doesn't show any.

That's just a weird anecdote that.

>> Shows you how weird some.

>> Can we get back to talking about malls?

>> Yeah.

Thank you very much.

Okay, so in the mall, if you want to buy pajama pants.

>> Today's topic is, which there are many.

>> Stores in which you can do so.

>> You certainly can.

okay.

So we're going to go down the list here.

Here's the challenge.

I'm going to list the name of a store.

You tell me if it's open or closed and if you think it's closed, tell me when you think it closed.

Lord and Taylor, we kind of established this one.

>> But closed.

Closed?

>> I was.

>> Devastated when.

>> 2019.

>> 2018.

>> 2021 the last one.

>> Of the last.

>> Stores in the.

>> Country.

Higher or lower.

>> Eastview Mall.

Lord and Taylor closed.

That space is going to be filled by a new Bass Pro shops.

I'm told at the end of next year toys R us.

>> Closed.

>> Closed.

>> All of them.

>> When?

>> Oh wait.

But reopening?

>> the idea is to reopen some, but the closest to us.

Do you know where they are in once in Saint Catherine's, I think.

And the other is like in what's just west of Watertown in Canada.

So they're both in Canada.

so there's nothing toys R us closed all their locations in the United States in 2019.

Are.

There you go.

Forever 21.

Come on, Brian, you love closed.

Closed.

Earlier this year.

And I'm going to read from journalist Caitlin Tiffany, who wrote a tribute to forever 21 this past spring when all Forever 21 closed.

Here's what she wrote.

Quote.

The clothes were, in theory, inexpensive versions of the latest trends.

In practice, they were usually inexpensive versions of recently past trends, and sometimes they were items so odd that they seemed to have been imported from a different reality, like the crop top with suspenders or the Cheetos bathing suit.

But for a suburban teenager with a little bit of cash, forever 21 still felt like a place of possibilities.

Yes, it was always a disaster.

Its racks and racks of cheap merchandise were arranged according to surrealist organizing principles that were impossible for the amateur to comprehend, and much of what was for sale was hideous.

But I did not.

But I did not have taste.

What I had was an after school job in the mall food court that paid $7.25 an hour.

>> That's right Caitlin, not only hideous, but ill fitting and made from dryer sheets.

I don't know where they got those clothes, but it was.

But did.

>> You shop at forever 21?

>> I did, I forever 21 was like, definitely catered to my specific brand of millennial demographic.

So yes, I did when I was younger, much younger.

>> It's gone.

Burlington Coat Factory.

>> Closed.

>> Burlington is still open.

>> Closed.

This was a trick question.

It is still.

>> Open Burlington now.

>> And it is Burlington.

And it is opening new stores across the country.

But the local location was the site of Boscov's.

So it's locally gone.

But it is not closed fully.

So.

Oh, they moved to the other side of the mall.

Oh, they're still there.

Oh, and they're even in Henrietta.

>> Look at the.

And there's a Burlington in Webster, I believe.

>> look.

>> At.

>> But they are growing.

They're one of the few retailers.

So what's that?

>> Where are they in Henrietta?

>> I don't know where they are in Henrietta.

They're also in Webster.

The old toys R us.

Wow, look at that.

>> Full circle.

>> We are now.

We're full circle.

So Burlington was the curveball because Boscov's occupies their space, but they are growing.

They're one of the few that are growing.

Party city.

>> Closed.

>> Closed February of this year.

Gone.

>> You have to get your balloons at Michael's now the dollar store.

>> All right.

Here's one for for you.

Did you shop at the limited?

No.

No, no.

Did you have the limited?

>> Yes.

>> Brian, there's no way you shopped at the limited.

No.

Okay.

open or closed.

>> Why was that, though?

An automatic.

There's no way.

>> did you.

Do you know what the limited is?

It's for little girls.

>> Oh.

>> It's for.

>> Like.

>> Sort of.

It's the tween girl demographic.

>> No, I wasn't saying, like, it's like this upscale, like, chic place.

And you're too much of a print journalist to shop there.

It's a girls store.

>> Well, yeah.

See, it started as a limited two, and then it became the limited.

And then it.

>> The limited.

2018 closed there.

The Bon-Ton.

>> Oh, Bon-Ton closed.

I think.

>> Closed.

>> Gone 20.

>> I. guess.

>> Closed 21.

Veronica.

>> And you know, it's it's amazing that they were around that long.

I haven't.

>> Heard 2019, 2019 Bed Bath and Beyond closed.

>> Closed.

>> They're gone to the Great Beyond.

>> But they're.

But they're back again.

>> So what does.

>> That mean?

They closed and they sold to Overstock.

And then Overstock.

Re kind of reopened the reopened the they're like an online only.

>> Yeah.

So bed Bath and Beyond is.

>> Do you just know this or.

>> That.

I know I do like I also have to say full disclosure.

Brian not only did I grow up in New Jersey, like everyone I know, worked in retail.

My dad, like he his company, builds stores in malls like that's his.

That's his whole job.

So this is a big part of my life is just knowing what's going on with stores.

>> pier one gone.

>> Gone.

>> Do you know pier one?

>> I do.

>> Did they have that in the Midwest?

Yes, they have that in Ohio.

I knew my mother liked pier one.

They closed in 2020.

They were a pandemic casualty.

RadioShack way gone.

They were one of the first almost ten years ago.

>> Yeah.

They were like the canary in the coal mine of brick and mortar closures.

>> You know, closed before RadioShack, circuit city, 2009.

>> Oh, wow.

Circuit city.

>> Remember them?

>> Good times.

>> 2009 for Circuit City.

>> This is just nostalgia now for old tech stores.

>> And another tech store, Brookstone.

Remember them?

>> No.

Oh, they were in the mall.

>> They were like.

They were.

>> Like.

Yes, they were that.

But they were that like, you know, as seen on TV tech store in the mall.

>> So they were to me, they were like Sharper Image.

They had like weird, cool techie.

>> Exactly.

>> They closed in 2018.

Joann fabrics gone.

>> Yeah.

So I, I'm surprised by Joann Fabrics.

>> But Brian, are you going to be offended if I say I'd be surprised if he ever went into a joint?

>> I did go into a joint.

Oh you did?

Yes.

>> For like a project for.

>> yeah.

Some crafting thing.

I think.

>> That this year gone.

And I think they were just called Joann for a while.

Is that right?

But they were.

They're gone.

>> It's the common trend of trying to rebrand before eventually realizing that you're that it's a futile effort.

>> Okay, best.

That's a very fair point.

Best buy closed or open?

>> Open.

>> I was gonna say closed.

>> No.

It's open.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

>> They have at least one, like maybe three locations around here.

Like they still.

They're good.

they're closing 25 stores a year, but they haven't closed any here.

>> Hang in there, best buy.

>> Best buy, Payless shoes.

>> Closed.

>> Closed 2019.

Gone.

Sears closed in 2019.

I thought it was even earlier than that, but that was to me.

You talk about the canary in the coal mine.

The one that was like, everybody's got a closing where you go, wow, I spent a lot of time.

My mother was in Sears all the time.

And so when that closed, I'm like, that's a powerhouse.

Wow.

That was 2019.

Big lots, 2024.

I don't think I knew that until I was pulling this list together.

>> Big lots.

>> Yeah.

Big lots.

>> Pour one out for Big Lots.

>> Gone.

>> Stein Mart.

August of 2020.

Stein Mart was in was it the old Chase Pitkin?

Is that where it was in?

In Pittsford Plaza?

>> I have no idea what Stein Mart is.

>> It's a discount retailer, and they're gone.

Well, you won't know what they are.

They're gone.

They're gone.

>> Stein.

>> Mart and our colleague Elisa Orlando also alerts us to a couple of things I think are worth mentioning here.

We're not these aren't necessarily retail, but there's a lot of pharmacy closures.

So the Rite Aid's gone.

>> Yeah.

>> Walgreens closures.

and this is from the DNC in 13.

Wham closed five locations in 2024.

In our in our area, CVS closures.

there are ten open cvs's, but there's almost just as many closures in our area.

And Elisa just sent a note basically saying, you know, you really can't understate how important that is for people in you know, who are struggling, who need pharmacies, who maybe don't have transportation, need to find something on a bus line.

So a lot of change there with Rite Aid totally gone.

Walgreens, CVS cutting back just a lot of change.

A lot, a lot of change.

It's a long list there and I don't know, I mean, I, I will say it's weird that this hour opened with like, Veronica and me fighting about this because I would love to see I like to see anything that pulls people together in person.

You know?

And I know you didn't go to many malls, but like, at least it pulls people together in person, right?

>> Yeah.

No, I mean, when I was a kid, we'd go to malls.

I just I just got.

Yeah, I, I think the crowds and all the bustle, like when you see the activity at that, that just stresses me.

>> Out.

Brian.

>> You and I'm an indecisive shopper.

>> I was gonna say.

>> There's not as much bustle.

It's much more manageable for somebody who maybe likes a little bit of a slower pace.

>> I was gonna say.

So a lot of people who like to walk, there's walking groups that go to malls still, but one of the things I wish I had a little more time to talk about with Jim Boscov was to Brian's point.

When you went to malls in the past, I mean, not all, not every time, but there was a lot of energy.

There's energy in just crowds and movement, and energy sort of begets energy.

And that leads to, you know, retail registers ringing in more places.

So when Boscov's is there and they're crushing it early on, so far it looks like Greece Ridge.

They're doing great.

But when the rest of the mall is struggling, does that hurt them?

Jim thinks it doesn't, or he's making the case that they can be a standalone magnet, that they'll have their crowd, but that that has to ignore some of what happens in regular foot traffic at these locations.

That's tough.

Right?

>> That's a really lofty claim.

We'll see if it bears out.

Yeah.

I mean, like, who wants to go into a store that's empty, right?

Like who wants to go into a mall that's sort of like empty?

You've been there right where you've walked down the wing of a mall, and it's like, does anybody work here?

Like it's kind of eerie.

so it's, you know, I don't think that's that has mass appeal.

>> Somehow malls became a place like, so if you go to like a kid's art fair and you almost feel sad for like, you feel like you have to buy something, you're like, oh, man, you don't want to feel that way in department stores where you're like, oh, my gosh, when was the last human being who walked through here?

No, that's a.

>> But that's why I think you're seeing more integrated community sort of spaces in malls, too.

I mean, that's why you see, like the bounce house or the spa or the cat cafe or the lounge or the movie theater.

It's because or the DMV, it's maybe like less traditional retail, like box, big, big box stores or traditional retail and more like, what else would people want to do if they came here, especially in a town like Rochester, where there's so much snow?

I mean, the idea that you have like potentially 1,000,000ft of indoor space that has heating and air conditioning, it's pretty.

I mean, it's an opportunity for people, if you can get people to leave their house and, and go there, I guess.

>> Yeah.

>> So he has an exterior entrance, right?

Yeah.

So I, I'm just and I wish he was still to ask him, but I think one that sets up a vastly different equation in terms of going to a mall.

And if you're a destination store you don't have to worry if you know your door into the emptiness is trafficked or not.

the reason I wish he was still here is when I'd ask him what locations he looked at and why he picked that.

It could be if that mall real estate, particularly in in a mall that is not as high functioning is cheaper than going to a Pittsford Plaza.

I mean, I know he said space requirements, but also like that could be their niche.

>> Oh, they've got leverage at a.

>> Place not just cheaper but potentially incentives.

Right?

I mean, that's what I was starting to think of.

>> You got more leverage there, right?

100%.

as we close here, guys, you know what's interesting?

My first show ever hosting Connections was January 6th, 2014, and we wanted a member of Congress to be the first guest.

And so Louise Slaughter came on the first day, but she could only come on at 1:00.

So despite what I tell people, she wasn't the first guest.

The first guest was Dennis Wilmot talking about the health and future of malls and how they did on the Christmas shopping season, and that was a routine part of journalistic coverage back then.

How did you do on the Christmas season?

How'd you do on the holiday shopping season?

What's happening next?

That was 2014.

I don't think if I would have told him 11 years later, here's the list of stores in our region that are going to close.

I mean, Dennis is a smart guy.

He's a really smart guy.

He might have believed it, but a lot has changed.

So it's wild.

>> A lot has changed.

But maybe there's more to change.

Maybe we'll be back here in ten years to talk about it.

>> Bass Pro's open at the end of next year.

I mean, there's a lot still happening thanks to Jim Boscov earlier.

That was very cool of Jim to come on.

And thanks to Veronica and Brian for hanging out.

We appreciate it.

>> Thank you.

Thank you Evan.

>> Go take a walk at the mall sometime.

Brian, you know Pokemon, a lot of Pokemon Go there.

I will tell you.

>> Yeah.

>> There you go.

A lot of cool stuff there.

All right, guys, thank you for listening.

Thanks for being with us on our multiple platforms.

We're right back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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