Brooks and Capehart on Democrats’ climate bill and critical primary elections

Judy Woodruff:

It is time now for the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for Washington Post.

Hello to both of you. It is Friday night again. The days are flashing by this summer.

Let's start out by talking about the deal, David, that it looks like the Democrats have pulled off. They have got Kyrsten Sinema on board. It looks like the hedge fund folks and the private equity folks may be happy about this. But it appears they are going to have a deal. We don't have a final vote yet, but what do you make of it?

David Brooks:

Yes, there's this thing carried interest that never dies. All economists hate this thing. But it never dies.

And Kyrsten Sinema has kept it alive. And to explain what it is, we will call Paul Solman. I'm not going to try to do that here.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

But it's an achievement.

It's a big bill, as we discussed last week, and it's sort of center-out government. It's sort of what Joe Biden promised us. He's going to start in the center, and he's going to move more left. But if we had a normal Republican Party, you would get a bunch of Republican votes for this thing.

And it's going to be a major achievement. And it's an achievement in investing. It's investing in American clean energy. It's not trying to tell people what energy they can choose. It's just creating a lot of resources, so there can be cheaper clean energy. It's creating new technologies. It's an impressive achievement.

And, as I think I mentioned before, it comes on the heels of a series of impressive achievements, the gun legislation and the CHIPS bill and other things. Things are actually getting done in Washington. People may be cynical about it, but things seem to be happening.

Judy Woodruff:

So, Jonathan, David says it's an impressive achievement. What do you — what's your — what are you thinking?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, I mean, I agree with David. It is an impressive achievement.

It's not as impressive as, say, Build Back Better, the $2 trillion bill that the president wanted to get done a year ago, but in a Washington where nothing seems to be able to get done on these — quote, unquote — "big-picture items," to have the Inflation Reduction Act being this close to passage in the Senate is a huge achievement.

There will be amendments that will be voted on, on the vote-a-rama next week. One of them that's being lobbied very strongly by Senator Warnock of Georgia and other senators is a provision to close the Medicaid coverage gap, which would really help low-income Americans, especially in those states where Obamacare hasn't been adopted, to allow them to get health care.

That would be a huge boon to those citizens, but also to the economy, because you would have folks who'd actually to be able to have health care and not be in a position where they're putting their health at risk in order to maintain a job or to protect their families.

Judy Woodruff:

But you're right. There are amendments that are going to be debated. We will see what comes out at the other end.

But, David, as you pointed out, this is not just the — this is not the only good thing that's happened to the White House, to the Democrats. They had a vote last Tuesday — number of votes last Tuesday night, but the one they were watching so closely with Kansas, where the voters came out, and 59, almost 60 percent of them did not want more restrictions on abortion.

Big shocker, I think, to many people who were watching. This is a red state. What does it say about abortion this fall on the ballot?

David Brooks:

Well, it says a couple things.

One is that Americans are pretty moderate on abortion. And if they — if you can have a law which will allow people have abortions to 22 weeks or somewhere around there, most Americans support that. And they don't like the idea of getting jerked around, which they feel the Supreme Court did with Dobbs.

And so what was striking to me about the results in Kansas, it wasn't only, like, blue parts that came out and were super active. If you go to the red parts of Kansas, which are pretty red, the pro-life community underperformed everywhere, absolutely everywhere.

And so, to me, it's a vindication of the voters, that we could — one of the problems with Roe v. Wade is, we took the hands out of the voters. But you look at what just happened in Kansas, you think, well, pretty sensible.

And if we can settle this to give people actual choices, as opposed to extremes in state legislatures, most of the states, the vast majority of the states, are going to come out at the place where the polls suggest most of Americans are, which is this middle ground, where it's not banning abortion, not until nine months, but somewhere in the middle there.

And so, to me, it's a vindication of democracy. And I — frankly, I wish we'd been doing this for last few decades.

Judy Woodruff:

Jonathan, where do you come down on what the voters said in Kansas?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, it was really stunning what the voters said in Kansas.

We got so used to talking about abortion as it's a left issue or a right issue, a Democratic issue or a Republican issue. But when a conservative state, a state that voted for Donald Trump in 2020 by 15 points, when that kind of state overwhelmingly rejects an effort to ban abortion, I now look at this issue — or at least looking at the voters in Kansas as looking at this issue as a social policy question.

Folks didn't go with their Republican hat on or Democratic hat on. They went in thinking, wait a minute, do I want government this involved in what should be and is a very personal decision?

And so what happened in Kansas should energize Democrats around the country. But what I'm curious to see is whether that fire and energy we saw in Kansas will be replicated. Will abortion and the access to reproductive care be something that is galvanizing for voters around the country come November?

Judy Woodruff:

Well, certainly raised questions about what we're going to see in the months to come, because we know it's going to be on the ballot in the months to come and then beyond.

But, David, on Tuesday, there were also results we were watching in a number of other states, and the winners, time after time, in so many of these cases were candidates who were either endorsed by former President Trump or they are out-and-out election deniers, people who say 2020 was stolen.

David Brooks:

Yes, there's another good thing that happened for Joe Biden and the Democrats, which is the Republicans are doing a phenomenally excellent job of self-sabotaging.

The Republican Senate candidate in Georgia is a guy named Herschel Walker, a guy I used to love when he played football, but he's just not a good candidate. And so that Georgia Senate seat looks more likely to go Democratic, because they — there's just not a good candidate.

And you look at the candidates that the Arizona Republican Party threw up and the Michigan, these are not right-wing states. Arizona is genuinely a purple state. Michigan is genuinely a swing state. And there's a reason Arizona has two Democratic senators. And it seems highly unlikely to me they're going to go for some of the people who are thrown up for major offices.

My — the final thing I'd say is, we should ban primaries in August, because most people have something better to do in August than go to the primary.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

Do it in September, where people are at home and they're paying attention.

When you have it in August, you get the small core of people who can really throw things out of whack.

Judy Woodruff:

Yes. You get low turnout, although — even those of us who love politics, August primaries, Jonathan, may be — may not be at the top of the chart.

But what do you make of the outcome in these states this week?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, look, I hope David is right, in that the Republicans have done a really good job at self-sabotage. I hope he's right.

But what I fear is, what happens in the general election? Will people come out and vote? Will people vote on the issues? Will people vote to save democracy? Or will people be apathetic and stay home, and thereby allowing these fringe — you can't even call them fringe anymore — these super far, far right candidates to glide into office?

I think we are one or two elections away from having our democracy not just on the precipice, but on the slide down. And there are some things that have been done by Democrats trying to boost up these fringe far right candidates, in the hopes of helping the Democratic nominee in the general election, that I think that that's too dangerous a game to play when our democracy is on the brink.

Judy Woodruff:

So, David, you called it, I think, something like self-destruction the part of Republicans.

And another reminder this week of just how divided the Republican Party is, is you have Viktor Orban, and we will talk about that in just a second, the report a moment ago from Laura, but Dick Cheney, former vice president, came out this week with — and here's just a portion of an ad he has thrown out for his daughter Liz running for reelection to Congress in Wyoming.

Dick Cheney, Former Vice President of the United States: In our nation's 246-year history, there has never been an individual who was a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump.

He tried to steal the last election, using lies and violence to keep himself in power, after the voters had rejected him. He is a coward. A real man wouldn't lie to his supporters.

Judy Woodruff:

They don't come much more conservative than Dick Cheney.

David Brooks:

Yes.

And it's a very effective ad. And it's — people, you have to say, who haven't seen it all, it's all over the Internet.

And Liz Cheney's a hero. She did what so many of her colleagues failed to do, which was stand up and tell the truth about what happened in the election.

My concern is, if the polls are any way remotely close to what reality is, she's about to get clobbered. It's — she — in one of the polls, she was down by 22 percent. An incumbent House member is not down 22 percent to a Republican primary challenger. So she's probably going to lose big time.

And so, to me, the key for — and then when you read the Casper papers, one of the big beefs against her is not defense of Donald Trump, is that she isn't paying attention to us in Wyoming and she's gone Washington.

And so one of the challenges for Republicans who want to take on Donald Trump, say, in the primaries in 20 — in a couple of years, is to be anti-Trump, but in a way that seems populist, in a way that doesn't seem you have gotten native and you're a bunch of Washington never-Trumpers.

And that is outflank some maybe on the left on economics, is really down home culturally, where conservative Americans are, and there has to be a way to challenge Donald Trump that is not politically suicidal. And, as much as I admire Liz Cheney, she hasn't yet found that way.

Judy Woodruff:

So, how much of a fine line are they walking, Jonathan?

Jonathan Capehart:

Oh, I don't think there — Liz Cheney is walking any kind of fine line.

She has made it clear that going after — speaking truth to power, not cowering in the face of Donald Trump, even putting her political career on the line, that that is what she's going to do, because she's decided that saving American democracy, standing up for the rule of law and the Constitution in the face of a grave threat is much more important than holding elective office in Wyoming.

And, look, I keep thinking about the scene in "Star Wars: Episode IV," when Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi are battling it out on the Death Star. And Obi-Wan says to Darth Vader, if you strike me down, I will come back more powerful than you can imagine.

And, to me, Liz Cheney is Obi-Wan Kenobi. If she loses, which she very well might lose her primary on August 16, she could very well come back more powerful than Donald Trump has imagined. And if her goal is to ensure that he comes — never comes within any manner of feet of the Oval Office, if she can succeed in doing that, she will have done a major service to the American — to the American experiment.

Judy Woodruff:

We're going to have a quiz on "Star Wars" the next time we're together.

David Brooks:

I know. I will do Marvel Comics.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

All right, that was a great note to end on.

Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, thank you both. We appreciate it.

David Brooks:

Thank you.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Judy.