Jan. 6 committee investigator on findings that led to newest charges against Trump

Geoff Bennett:

Many of the details in yesterday's indictment were first revealed last year as part of the House January 6 Committee's probe of the attack on the U.S. Capitol.

Joining us now is the former lead investigator for that committee, Tim Heaphy.

Tim, thanks for being back with us on the "NewsHour."

And I want to start with your assessment of Mr. Lauro, Josh Lauro's assertion that indictment is an attack on Donald Trump's free speech, his free speech rights.

Timothy Heaphy, Former January 6 Committee Lead Investigator: Yes, there's a big difference between speech and conduct.

We do — the Constitution does protect Americans' right to free speech, even if that speech is hateful, even if that speech is false. If Donald Trump had just stood up and said "the election was stolen," alone, that would not be criminal.

What's alleged here, though, is conduct, not speech, as your questions, Geoff, got to. He is alleged to have lied to the American people as part of a multipart, intentional plan to prevent the joint session. It wasn't just the speech. It was what the speech was designed to do. It was the generation of the fake elector certificates, the possible personnel change at Justice, the pressure on Mike Pence.

The key thing to remember about that speech is that it was not informed by evidence. The allegations that he made about voter fraud were repetitively debunked, rebutted, and told directly to the president. That makes them lies. And, therefore, it demonstrates specific content that those lies motivate action.

So, look, I agree with Mr. Lauro that, in America, every defendant is presumed innocent and gets his day in court. I'm looking forward to the vigorous adjudication of this. But the special counsel certainly anticipated this and has evidence of conduct, not speech. That's why this indictment was brought.

Geoff Bennett:

We also heard Josh Lauro say that the government had three years to bring this case, to investigate, and now they want to rush this to trial. That's what he said.

He's not the only one who feels that way. There are Trump critics, there are Democrats who actually agree with him for different reasons. What do you make of the timeline of this case?

Timothy Heaphy:

Yes, look, I think the Department of Justice at the beginning was focused on what I have called kind of the blue-collar aspect of January 6, the rioters themselves who were there at the Capitol committing acts of violence.

I think it took them a long time to get to the white-collar part of the case, the impetus, the political coup, this multipart plan that has now been alleged in the indictment. I don't know what went on within the Department of Justice that informed that prioritization.

I do think that the facts that the select committee was able to uncover that came largely from Trump administration officials, Republicans who wanted the president to win, but did the right thing when they were in a moment of principle, their willingness to come forward and talk to the select committee and our then revelation of those facts to America, unquestionably, was motivating.

Because, again, facts are what matters, not lawyers, but facts. And the facts here are compelling. When the Department of Justice became aware of those facts, they were moved to act.

Geoff Bennett:

As we mentioned, you were the lead investigator for the House January 6 Committee, and that committees work product in many ways created a road map for the January 6 — the — rather, the special counsel January 6 investigation.

When you read that indictment, what strikes you as intensely familiar and what also strikes you as new, as painting a fuller picture of all that transpired leading up to the insurrection?

Timothy Heaphy:

Yes, the vast majority of it is familiar.

When I read it, it sounded very, very similar to Vice Chair Cheney's opening statement at our first hearing, the committee's first hearing, last year. That was the hearing at which she said, this was an intentional, multipart plan to disrupt the joint session. And she checked off pressure on state officials, efforts to change personnel at Justice, pressure on the vice president, and ultimately launching a violent mob at the Capitol.

That's precisely what this indictment lays out. So the facts here have not been hidden. They have not been a mystery. There's really not much new in the indictment, other than a few direct communications between Vice President Pence and President Trump. We didn't have an opportunity to get that from the vice president.

We knew, essentially, that the vice president had conveyed his position to the president, but the color and the specific words, that's new. I think Pat Cipollone has provided some new direct information that he did not provide us because of a claim of executive privilege.

So there's some new vignettes in the indictment, but the core conduct was described in detail over the course of the select committee process.

Geoff Bennett:

We have got about a minute left, and I want to ask you more about the testimony by the former vice president.

How did what he shared in witness testimony and what he shared via contemporaneous notes, how did that really propel the special counsel investigation, beyond what your committee was able to do?

Timothy Heaphy:

Yes, I don't know that it propelled it.

I think it just corroborated and provided more direct evidence of fact about which we had indirect evidence. So, we interviewed Marc Short, who was the vice president's chief of staff. And I remember very specifically asking Mr. Short, did the vice president convey to President Trump his position about the limitations on his authority at the joint session?

Marc Short said, yes, many times.

So we were aware that was the position the vice president took and that it was conveyed to the president. We now have Mike Pence himself talking about the words that were used. That's important. That's more reliable direct evidence than the secondhand account that we got.

Geoff Bennett:

Tim Heaphy, thanks, as always, for your insights. We appreciate it.

Timothy Heaphy:

Thanks for having me.