Presidential historian says Trump arrest ‘a painful day’ for America

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• Geoff Bennett:

  The arrest and arraignment of former President Trump marks a turning point in American history.

  To put this day in historical context, we're joined by presidential historian Michael Beschloss.

  It's great to have you here.

  In Donald Trump's arraignment today, on the one hand, was — it was routine. It was not unlike the hundreds of other arraignments that happen across New York City in a given day. But, on the other hand, Michael, it was surreal. It was significant. It was breathtaking in its consequence.

  What do you make of this extraordinary moment in American history?

• Michael Beschloss, Presidential Historian:

  Well, Geoff, I have been studying presidents for all these decades, and I thought I was prepared for what I would see today, and I really wasn't.

  Whether you liked Donald Trump or not, whether he is proven guilty or not, this was a painful day, for the first time in over two centuries. To see an American president, now retired, maybe temporarily, maybe not, in the courtroom with the possibility of going to prison, that's something that we have never seen before in all of American history. And that courtroom has seen a lot of mobsters and major criminals.

  It just took a lot — it was painful to see Donald Trump in that same place.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Well, on that point, while other democratically elected leaders around the world have faced prosecution in Israel, in Italy, in France, South Korea, American presidents, current and former, have always seemed to occupy this exalted realm, where they existed above prosecution.

• Michael Beschloss:

  Right.

• Geoff Bennett:

  How does this indictment change the perception of the American presidency?

• Michael Beschloss:

  Well, I think not so much this case, necessarily, but the fact that former presidents now can be indicted. That hasn't happened before.

  1974, Richard Nixon was an unindicted co-conspirator. There were charges of all sorts of things, obstruction of justice and others. Gerald Ford, his successor, gave him a pardon a month after Nixon quit in that picture we just saw on the screen. He said that the American people could not stand the idea of an ex-president going on trial.

  Well, the cost of that has been presidents, like Donald Trump, apparently, think that being president gives you sort of an immunity-free zone, you can do almost anything you want, and the worst punishment is going to be the punishment that went to Richard Nixon, which was retirement to a pretty nice-looking seaside home.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Well, to draw you out on that historical analog, there were people, students of history who say that Gerald Ford should not have pardoned Richard Nixon. Tell me more about that.

• Michael Beschloss:

  Yes, me too. I believe that very strongly.

  I spoke to Gerald Ford in 1995 at his ski house in Colorado. And I said: "With all due respect, Mr. President, why couldn't you at least have waited — waited to pardon Nixon until he was indicted and the trial had begun or at least fingerprinted, so that he couldn't go on and tell people for 20 years that he had done nothing wrong?" which is basically what he did.

  And Ford said, essentially, that he felt he didn't have the stomach for it. And he thought it would be too distracting as he tried to deal with other issues.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Is today's arraignment, Michael, in line with what the founders envisioned, in that no one, even former presidents, exist above the law?

• Michael Beschloss:

  Well, you and I have both read the Constitution pretty closely, Geoff. And I don't see and I don't think you will see anything in that document that says either that ex-presidents cannot be indicted or even that sitting presidents cannot be indicted.

  That only rests on a ruling by the Nixon Justice Department of the early 1970s. That is not something that's in holy scriptures. So all I'm saying is that, if we are worried about presidents getting into lawlessness, like in Nixon, as there were accusations of Ronald Reagan during Iran-Contra, other moments in American history, doesn't that encourage that for presidents to think that they're above the same kind of laws that the rest of us are?

• Geoff Bennett:

  What does this indictment — what's the — what's the impact on our politics, not just the arraignment, but Donald Trump's efforts to use this arrest to inflame a partisan firestorm to protect himself and build his support?

  And, of course, this didn't happen in a vacuum. It comes on top of two historic impeachments, his falsehoods about the 2020 election, the attack by his supporters on the U.S. Capitol. What does history suggest to Michael about what might come next, given the rhetoric?

• Michael Beschloss:

  Well, as you and I have talked about, Geoff, this is an extremely divided country. And he will say that this is a partisan indictment only because there's a so-called Democratic prosecutor that's trying to get him.

  And that's something that also goes through American history. Think of two groups. White supremacist groups in the South would use political charges to go after Black defendants or people who were trying to achieve civil rights and voting rights. That goes through American history all the way back 150 years or more.

  And, at the same time, organized crime figures in New York, including in that courtroom that we saw today, what's the first thing that they often say when they are indicted? Political charge. The prosecutor is trying to make a name for himself. I'm innocent.

  We will see in this case.

• Geoff Bennett:

  And, looking forward, it would appear that this case is on a collision course with the 2024 presidential election. The next hearing in this case is set for early December.

  How does that strike you?

• Michael Beschloss:

  I wish it weren't. I wish this trial did not go on during the year of the next presidential election, as it now looks. But that's happened in America too.

  Aaron Burr was tried not for the murder of Alexander Hamilton, but for trying to wage a coup against the government of the United States that was very distracting to Thomas Jefferson. Our legal process always has to be separate from our politics. One should not be intermingled with the other.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Presidential historian Michael Beschloss.

  Michael, thank you for your insights and for your time on this historic day.

• Michael Beschloss:

  My pleasure. Thank you, Geoff.