(instrumental music) (instrumental music continues) - Hello, and welcome to "The Bookmark."

I'm Christine Brown, your host.

Today my guest is Margie Crisp, author of "Duck Walk: A Birder's Improbable Path to Hunting As Conservation".

Margie, thank you so much for being here today.

- Oh.

Thank you for having me here.

It's a pleasure.

- I'm excited to talk about this book 'cause the concept, the idea, I mean the title tells us, this is a really interesting concept of how you went from somebody who just observed to somebody who did a little more than observe.

- That's right.

- Can you talk about what your journey from birdwatcher to duck hunter, how that started and what that was?

- Well this journey started on the banks of a flooded rice field outside of Eagle Lake, Texas.

I was with a group of people who had been assembled to talk about water in Texas, specifically the water belonging to the Colorado River.

And it was bad news, most of the time, about how much water we have and the number of people.

But our group stopped at this place and our, it naturally divided.

One group went up on the deck and it was mostly men.

And there was another group, mostly women who were at the shore.

And we were standing there and I overheard a woman behind me say, "It's such a shame that all of this is just so some macho hunter can kill some ducks."

Now we were looking at 300 acres that was packed with birds, not just ducks and geese, but shorebirds, wadding birds, egrets, herons, peeps.

It was amazing.

And there was something about her statement that irritated me.

It bothered me.

And in the book I say, "It felt like nettles brushing against my skin."

And I turned around and looked and I couldn't figure out who'd said it.

But then I realized I couldn't ignore my own disdain, because I suddenly realized that judgment I made without ever considering the role of hunters in conservation, that bird watchers were somehow better people than duck hunters, morally, ethically, and on one level, sure bird watchers don't kill birds, so sure you're on the side of the birds.

But as I was standing there thinking about that, this thought rose in my mind.

And it was, if I was serious about wetlands conservation, I would be a duck hunter.

If anybody had been standing next to me, they would've smelled the burning because it was like I'd grabbed a hot wire on a fence.

And we got back on the bus and I spent the whole drive back to Austin with my brain just popping and sizzling.

We got home and I said to my husband, "I think if I'm serious about wetlands conservation, I need to be a duck hunter."

And he said, "You hate guns.

You won't even touch guns."

And I said, "I know."

John James Audubon shot birds for his art.

John Graves shot ducks when he wrote "Goodbye to a River".

I think I need to be a duck hunter.

He said, "Hallelujah, let's go shoot the 20 gauge."

And that was how it started.

- I think it says something interesting about, you know, I, maybe more than one person could have had that light bulb moment as you talk about it, because if you were on this tour with these people, there is a lot that duck hunters do.

There's a lot of money that gets funneled back when you buy hunting licenses and duck stamps.

And we're gonna talk hopefully about all of that.

But the fact that you had that idea and then took it forward- - [Margie] Yes.

- I think is so interesting.

Can you talk about maybe why you decided to not just think this, but actually act on it?

Which I think is the rare piece.

- So part of what the background is is that, you know, I knew that there's a lot of bad news out there.

For instance, the state of the birds report that says, we've lost 3 billion birds.

One out of every four songbirds is gone, and that's in the last 50 years.

That doesn't include the birds we've lost since the 1800s, the passenger pigeons and all of that.

And it's overwhelming and it can lead to despair.

And for me, one of the antidotes to despair, as famously said by Joan Baez, is action.

And I realized that this was a rare opportunity for me to take action and test myself and my beliefs, which when you start getting a little older, I think it's healthy to do.

- So you've made this discovery, you've gone to Bill, who is your husband, who also is an artist and you work with sometimes.

How do you take that first step then if you're somebody who doesn't like to shoot a gun or touch a gun, what's that like to pick up a shotgun, which is can kick pretty hard, I imagine.

- Yes.

So, yeah.

So the first time he handed me a shotgun, I tried not to throw up.

I had intense anxiety about it.

My hands were sweating so much, I thought I was gonna drop the gun.

We went out, we walked out to the back of our property and my husband being the practical man that he is, said, "Okay, now shoot."

And I was just like, it irritated me just enough (Christine and Margie laughing) to get me out of the moment.

And, you know, and it was like, well, how do you shoot?

And he was, he grew up hunting.

He doesn't have to think about, first you put the stock on your shoulder, then you hold, you know.

So the first couple times I tried to shoot it was, it was just ridiculous.

The gun didn't fit.

I couldn't figure out how to aim.

I nearly ended up on my butt, but I persevered.

And I guess it's just more stubbornness than anything else.

But the other thing was is that Bill was thrilled and having a mentor who was so excited about teaching somebody these skills, really helped a lot.

Made a big difference.

- Enthusiasm and passion can- - Yes.

- Yeah, they can be catching so- - They can.

- So that's good.

There are, as you get started on your journey here, there's a couple of chapters and sections in the book that are a little bit humorous because let me mangle a phrase, you're kind of a duck out of water.

- [Margie] Oh yeah.

(Margie laughing) - Trying to get outfitted, you know?

To buy a gun is a complicated thing 'cause you wanna find one that fits.

And if any women out there have ever tried to shoot a shotgun, they're not necessarily made for smaller frames.

- [Margie] No, they're not.

- So I've ended up shooting youth models more than anything because I can't, I just can't physically hold something that heavy.

And then finding clothing.

Can you talk about that?

The outfitting problems that you were having?

- Oh, the outfitting is crazy.

I mean, nowadays there are a few more people making gear for women water fowlers.

But the truth of the matter is, is they're still using a body model that doesn't fit mine at all.

Every time I put on my waiters, I feel like I'm a short moldy haystack because, you know, it's made for somebody who's about 8, 10 inches taller than me.

But those things, the clothing, the gear, all of that falls away when you're sitting in a blind and watching the magic happen as the sun rises.

Except for the gun, if the gun doesn't fit you, it can ruin a trip in a hurry.

Unfortunately, you don't know if a gun fits until you fired it a few times.

So I ended up, the first time I actually went out duck hunting and fired multiple shots, I ended up with a bruise that started here and went to here.

And it was really dramatic black and purple bruising.

It was, I mean, I was walking around going, can you believe this bruise?

(Christine laughing) It was astonishing.

But it was, it's taken a while to finally find a gun that fits me.

And now that I do, I'm having great fun with it.

- Can you talk about that first trip hunting?

The first time, maybe not hitting something, but firing at live.

I mean, I know you did some clay shooting to try to- - Yes.

- You know, improve your aim in things, but clays are not the same as trying to hit a moving living creature.

- Right.

And first of all, as hard as I work at shooting, ducks don't have a lot to fear for me, honestly.

(Margie and Christine laughing) And part of the reason is because I just love watching 'em so much that half the time I'm so busy watching the birds come in that I forget I'm holding a shotgun, which can really infuriate the other people in the blind.

But the first time I know that I actually hit a bird and killed it, I expected that I would feel some sort of grief or guilt or something.

And I was surprised because I didn't.

I kept sort of waiting for this rush of emotion.

And when I finally retrieved the duck, which was on the other side of a pond and picked it up and held it, I didn't feel any regret.

What I felt was this extraordinary sense of connection and gratitude that kind of gets me teared up even now thinking about it.

That was an absolutely unique experience that I don't think I ever would've experienced any other way.

And that's part of duck hunting that keeps me going back.

Is that it puts me in touch with this great cycle of life and death.

Plus I know that I'm contributing.

- [Christine] Mhm.

Well we can be so disconnected from our food sources- - Yes.

- These days.

I mean, even, nobody hardly even grows, you know?

- [Margie] Right.

- Vegetables, but especially not hunts their own meat.

- [Margie] Yeah.

- A lot of people don't.

So I would imagine that's a very humbling and as you say, connected feeling to actually be connected to the, and then of course you do eat the meat.

- Yeah.

- You're not wasting these birds.

You're making them part of your meals.

- Yeah.

- I imagine that is a very good feeling to know- - It is.

- Where it's coming from, to use the resources that you've got.

- Mhm.

Yeah.

- Well let's talk about the conservation piece though.

As you mentioned, there are a lot of things that go into the sport of hunting, the money of hunting, go back into preserving wetlands, preserving habitats- - [Margie] Right.

- For the birds.

So can you talk about that?

- Yes.

So as I said in the beginning, I believed that bird watchers were on the side of the birds, period.

We don't kill birds.

But what I learned is that hunters and hunting have been funding conservation in our country since the 1930s.

And that is the foundation of conservation in our country.

And most people don't know that.

There are four laws that the Ottoman Society takes credit for two of them, the Lacey Act and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.

But those laws as well as the other two, which I'll talk about in a minute, were passed not just by bird watchers, but by bird hunters and other hunters who were concerned about the mass killing of all kinds of wildlife, not just birds in the US.

And probably the most important law was called the Wildlife Restoration Act.

And that was passed in 1937, I believe.

And a couple of guys, Pittman and Robertson said, look, we've got some great laws on the books for protecting wildlife, but we don't have any way to pay for enforcement.

There were no game wardens.

And somebody else said, hey, look, we're getting rid of these excise taxes.

There's an excise tax of 11% on firearms and ammunition when they're sold.

Let's just take that money and put it into a fund that will be used for conservation, for wildlife restoration.

And it, the law was passed, hunters agreed to tax themselves, firearm and ammunition manufacturers agreed to pay this tax, which is pretty extraordinary.

And that money, which is billions, has been billions and billions of dollars, continues to fund all these individual state fish and wildlife agencies to this day.

And it's an amazing story.

And I was astonished to discover not only that bird watchers had no idea, but many hunters don't understand it either.

So when I bought my shotgun and every time I buy ammunition, I can draw a direct line between my actions and what I do and conservation.

And I couldn't do that as a bird watcher.

- Yeah.

You mentioned, you know, you talk about this in the book, there's no tax on binoculars or any other birder gear.

- That's right.

- Whereas, and another way you describe it is that birdwatching is a more passive way to enjoy.

- [Margie] Yes.

- And you are you know, enjoying the natural environment, but you're not taking anything, but you're also not contributing anything.

- And while as, whereas hunting, yes, you are taking something, you are by the nature of, as you mentioned, buying these things, put putting it back in a bit too.

- Right, right.

And especially with the duck stamp.

- [Christine] Yes.

- And that's, - The duck stamp is an amazing law.

It was passed in 1934 and everybody water fowler, or over the age of 16, has to have a federal duck stamp.

The official name is the Migratory Bird Hunting and Conservation Stamp.

And it's a fascinating law because 98% of the money that is collected for these stamps goes directly to permanently protect land and waters, wetlands for ducks.

But not just for ducks, because this goes to national wildlife refuges.

And so whenever I'm talking to bird watchers, I say, you should buy duck stamp if nothing else.

And they say, I don't wanna hunt and I don't wanna support hunting.

And that was my attitude too.

I don't wanna support hunting.

And it's like, no, but do you like whooping cranes?

You know, do you like at-water prairie chickens?

All these birds, all these habitats that are so essential are supported by the duck stamp.

So that's a real winner.

But not enough bird watchers buy duck stamps.

- Well, 'cause as you mentioned at the beginning, when you're looking at that wetland, it's not just the ducks that are enjoying it.

- That's right.

- You know, a habitat is not specific necessarily to one type of bird.

All of them are going to benefit and other wildlife also is probably going to benefit.

And the duck stamp is a very easy way to- - Easy way.

- Have your money go right back to that thing you love and enjoy- - That's right.

- Looking at.

- And there's more and more science that's showing that these wetlands that have been viewed as aggravations and irritations and swampy nasty places that nobody wants are really essential for our entire country.

Because what's happening in the Great Plains with farmers and wetlands and their prairies and pastures affects the water all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico.

And it, you know, helps with aquifers, it helps with flooding, helps with water quality.

I mean, wetlands are just, if you're gonna pick a habitat to save wetlands are pretty remarkable.

- I wanna talk about the prairies a little bit because you do, you take that kind of a trip north.

- [Margie] Yes.

- To see that the migration pattern, and I think here in Texas, if we hear, "preserve the wetlands", we're thinking the coast.

- [Margie] Right.

- You know, we're thinking we're a little selfish, we think about what we know in our own backyard.

- [Margie] Exactly.

- But it's not just where the birds end up.

There's a whole long, oh, you know, it looks like kind of a, you call it like the waistband of America where they take this narrow path from Canada down to Texas and all of those stops along the way are equally important.

- [Margie] Yes.

- Because the birds need places to rest on their long journeys.

- [Margie] That's right.

- So can you talk about the prairies and why they're so important and why we need to save them as well?

- Well, the prairies are essentially, especially the prairie pothole region, which is this extraordinary part of the Great Plains where glaciers ground to a halt and then melted in a sponge-like pattern.

I mean, it's all these irregular circles and those, each one of those little divots becomes a seasonal wetland.

and it's surrounded by prairie.

And it's not just good for ducks who need the wetlands, but they also need the prairies for nesting.

But it's also important for all the grassland species, the meadow larks, the Bobo links, all the birds that we have down here in the winter lived there and nest there in the summer along with shorebirds.

And one of the most fascinating things I discovered is the largest roost of white pelicans is in North Dakota on a lake.

And so there I am on this lake seeing, I don't know, it's like 150,000 white pelicans.

- [Christine] Wow.

- And doesn't make sense.

I'm like, you pelicans are on the coast.

(Christine laughing) - Exactly.

I wanna go back to the duck stamp though, just briefly because- - Yes.

- You're a rare person I get to talk to who is a hunter, but also an artist.

- Yes.

- Because the other piece of the duck stamp is that there's a big contest every year- - Yes.

- On how that gets designed.

Can you talk about the art of the duck stamp?

- Well, the Duck stamp is the only federal art program that we, art contest that we have there.

There are other art programs.

The duck stamps are amazing.

You can look at the history, there are books you can buy, you can go online and look at all the duck stamps back from 1934, the very first one.

But they are works of art.

And they've turned the duck stamp competition has become this kind of extraordinary rarefied world where they're these extremely talented artists who specialize just in duck stamps and these kind of otherworldly perfect lighting images of ducks and water.

We are back to just having ducks now.

For a few years, the artists were required to have evidence of hunting to reflect our hunting heritage.

And it was not very popular because now all of a sudden these beautiful paintings had shells, shotgun shells and decoys and duck, abandoned duck calls.

But now we're back to just the birds.

And it's an amazing treasury of art and wildlife.

- And it's so fascinating.

This came on, I learned about this just last year when they were doing the, somehow it came on my radar and I was seeing the voting and the rounds where they're getting...

It's such a, it's like you said, I didn't know it's federally funded, but it's such a fascinating thing to watch an art contest happen in real time.

- [Margie] It is.

Yes.

- So even you're maybe not interested in ducks, I think it's a really cool thing to just, you know, keep your eye on just to see the process.

- [Margie] Oh yeah.

- Because you know, then you pick, it's like a horse race.

You pick your favorite and it doesn't win.

(Margie laughing) You get mad.

And I just think that's a really fun, and again, it all goes back to conservation.

- [Margie] It does.

- So it's all for an amazing cause.

- [Margie] Yes.

- Well, I also wanna make sure we do talk about the Ducks Unlimited program because they feature- - [Margie] Yes.

- Heavily in the book because they're another source of funding and fundraising to protect and ensure the future of these ducks- - [Margie] - And habitats.

- Yes.

And yeah, Ducks Unlimited, they were incredibly helpful.

I ended up cold calling people out of the blue and saying, "I'm writing a book."

(Margie chuckling) And they were generous with their time and generous with their knowledge.

But Ducks Unlimited is an extraordinary group.

In the 1930s when these big conservation laws were being set up, duck hunters realized that they needed more than just habitat in the United States.

They needed to preserve the wetlands and prairies in Canada and Mexico as well.

And they started funding conservation in the Great Plains of the US and Canada.

And that became the foundation of Ducks Unlimited.

So the, as a group, they've always been focused on habitat conservation, restoration, and preservation.

And they do create some wetlands from scratch, but that's an expensive job.

What I learned, one of the most fascinating things I learned was when I was on the board of a local Audubon group and we traded places.

I was president, I was vice president, I was everything but treasurer, don't make me treasurer, for years.

And we would get together and it was basically a social club and we would talk about birds and we would have somebody come in and give programs and it was very enjoyable.

But Ducks Unlimited has an entirely different approach.

Their groups, their chapters purpose is to raise money for conservation.

So every individual chapter, their job is to have fun and raise as much money as they can to go to the national office for conservation for ducks and wetlands.

Now, the money does come back to the individual chapters for local groups, projects, excuse me.

But it's amazing.

And they are a powerhouse of an organization because of the involvement.

So once again, there are people in a way to draw a direct line between an individual's actions and conservation on a national and international scale.

And that's pretty powerful.

- I do wanna highlight, you mentioned it at the beginning, but you also kind of bookend the story by going back.

You visited Eagle Lake, which is- - [Margie] Yes.

Not that far down the road.

- [Margie] No.

- So I think we should highlight that we are not that far from an area where if you wanna go visit some kind of wetland and the At-water Prairie Chicken Rescue places there, we're not that far from a place with a lot of really interesting bird history and culture.

- Yes, yes.

No, the Colorado River basin, the lower basin all the way down to the coast is incredibly important.

That was all prairie.

That had wetlands originally.

Most of those wetlands have been turned into rice fields, which we're losing as with development and as things change.

But it's been extremely important.

We get migratory birds from South America, central America and Mexico, that funnel right through this area on their way to Canada and way up north for nesting.

And in the spring and in the fall, it's amazing what you can see.

Just anybody can go out and visit one of the national wildlife refuges that's on the coast or just driving around.

You can see all kinds of stuff.

It's great.

- We're not that far.

- We're not that far.

- I think that's the message that I wanna get.

Is that we're in a uniquely lucky place here- - We are.

- In kind of central Texas where we can get very close to seeing some amazing displays of diversity in birds that- - Yes.

- Other folks would, do travel very far to come see.

- Yes.

And as a matter of fact, they have Christmas bird counts every year.

The Audubon Society holds Christmas bird counts, where within, they set 15 mile wide circles and they send everybody out, count as many birds as you can within that 15 mile wide circle.

And the circle that has, I think for the last 30 years, gotten the highest number of species in the United States is Matagorda Bay bird count, which is right there at the mouth of the Colorado River.

So it's important habitat.

- Well, we are unfortunately running low on time.

I could talk to you about this for an hour.

This is such a fascinating and interesting topic and journey that you took.

- Yeah.

- So I hope people will wanna read more.

But in our final two minutes, what do you hope people take away from this project and from your book?

- What I hope people take away are two things.

One is that bird watchers need to step up.

It's time for us to stop being passive and start being more engaged.

And the other thing is, is I hope it makes people realize that just like in the 1930s, we're in a time where we all need to reach across the aisle, put down our shotguns, put down our binoculars, and have serious conversations about what we have in common.

Because the answer to all these questions about birds, whether they're ducks or songbirds, the answer is always habitat, habitat, habitat.

- And we've done it before as you detail in the book.

- We've done it before.

- So we could conceivably and should do it again.

- Do it again.

- Absolutely.

- That's right.

- I also do wanna take just another moment to highlight the, of course the cover art is gorgeous, but scattered throughout the book, you've created a number of small pieces of art, of birds and habitat.

- Yes.

- So that's another reason I think to check out the book, 'cause there's some beautiful artwork in here.

- Well, thank you very much.

I enjoyed doing it.

It's always fun.

- Well thank you so much for being here.

I really appreciate your time.

That book again is Duck Walk: A Birder's Improbable Path from...

I'm sorry.

A Birder's Improbable Path of Hunting As Conservation.

I'm Christine Brown and I will see you again soon.

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