Hello.

Thanks for joining us for sustaining us here on KLCS.

I'm David Nazar.

We all learn from our past, past mistakes, past success, the knowledge gained over the years.

Well, the same is true for cities.

The evolution of a city is an education.

Today's cities are a continuation of what's been learned.

Thousands of years ago, ancient cities presented opportunities that modern cities have copied things like government, intricate administrative systems, unique architecture, art styles, even a management of dense population hubs.

Consequently, ancient cities also had many of the same challenges of today's cities, especially cities connected to water.

So exactly what have scientists, anthropologists and archeologists learned from ancient cities?

Well, we're about to find out.

As an archeologist, I've been fortunate in working in many different parts of the world.

I've also been able to travel to many of our great world cities.

And one of the things I realized as I dug in an ancient city and walked around a modern one is how much ancient and modern cities are exactly the same.

They have monumental architecture.

They have big, broad avenues.

They have neighborhoods where wealthy people live and neighborhoods for people who are not so wealthy, they have public plazas where people do a variety of different things and they have specialized sporting arenas and musical venues and all kinds of entertainment.

And so that became my question.

Why is it that cities, both past and present, look so similar?

This is Doctor Monica Smith.

Dr. Smith is a professor in the Department of Anthropology at UCLA.

She is the director of the South Asian Archeology Laboratory at the Coates in Institute of Archeology.

And she's a professor at the Institute of the Environment and Sustainability at UCLA.

Smith has spent much of her career digging into the world of ancient cities and their relation to cities all throughout the U.S. and the world today.

Archeological field experience includes work in India, Egypt, Italy, Madagascar, Bangladesh, Tunisia, England and the American Southwest.

And as she spanned the globe over the years, she is also author several books, including her most recent work, Cities The First 6000 Years.

We met Dr. Smith out here in Santa monica, California, where the Pacific Ocean and the city intersect.

Santa monica is a good example of the land water interface, much like many ancient cities thousands of years ago.

This convergence allows scientists like Monica Smith and her research colleagues to study today's city water landscape that goes back to the very beginnings of cities.

Because, as Smith explains, sustainability was even an issue back then.

Like Santa monica, many cities, past and present, are situated where the land water connect.

Take ancient Cairo, Athens, Rome or Venice, for example.

These ancient cities with their storied past were all interconnected with rivers, lakes or the sea.

And these cities of yesteryear were much like today's coastal port cities.

Everywhere from Los Angeles and Seattle, on the West Coast to Miami and New York, on the East Coast to Corpus Christi and Houston on the Gulf Coast, this geographic landscape allowed for ancient cities and today's cities to advance and prosper.

There was the development of water, transportation for goods, agricultural produce and raw materials.

Even today, water transport is still the cheapest way of shipping goods.

In our high tech era.

The presence of water also enabled city residents to utilize that source for daily use.

And rivers, then and now have historically been an easy way to get rid of urban industrial waste.

Today, rivers and waterways have also provided what has become the creation of river walks, which have sustained tourism and some local economies throughout the U.S..

These river walks can be found in places like San Antonio, Oregon City and Saint Cloud, Minnesota, and possibly one day in Los Angeles with a final multibillion dollar revitalization plan of the L.A. River.

However, as Professor Smith explains, this land water dynamic while providing great opportunity, has also presented a challenging relationship throughout the centuries.

Because for thousands of years, rivers, lakes and seas have also been erratic and unstable, neighbors causing things like floods, mudslides, landslides, leaving cities vulnerable to all types of storm damage, erosion and other catastrophic disasters.

Cities have always been part of their environment, even though those of us who live in a city today might feel that we are rather far apart from nature.

We don't even engage with dirt.

We're not farmers.

We still experience Mother Nature.

We still experience the weather on a regular basis.

We still experience storms, and we also have the risk of natural disasters.

Places like California are subject to earthquakes, of course.

Places in the Midwest have tornadoes.

As one of the things that they always have to think about.

So Mother Nature provides predictable unpredictability.

So things like the weather is predictable within a range, and things like natural disasters are also predictable within a range.

You know, if you live in the tornado belt, that you'll eventually get a tornado that you don't know which day.

That same kind of predictable unpredictability also governs what ancient city dwellers had to live if they lived within an environment that had rivers and lakes and streams, they were able to get rain, water or snowfall on a regular basis.

But they also had to deal with the occasional challenges that Mother Nature provided.

Professor Smith explains that some of these challenges are rooted in what she terms the watery margin of cities, something she says that so many cities past and present have dealt with.

We can think about cities as being engaged with water in a whole variety of ways.

In fact, most cities, both ancient and modern, are in places where they are touching the water because rivers and lakes and shorelines have been wonderful places for people to live and have easy access to water for industry and commerce.

But water is, of course, a very dynamic sang.

Sometimes there are floods, sometimes there are unpredictable storms.

And so people have developed ways of trying to engineer their way out of the challenges that nature provides.

So we build things like seawalls, which we can see in ancient cities.

The Romans were very good at this.

Even though the Mediterranean is a very placid kind of ocean, it still has storms and they were still concerned about things like coastal erosion and occasional storms that would destroy ports and other infrastructure.

We also know that people are engaging with canal ization.

They're trying to channel the water even as it comes into an urban environment.

So there's always this desire to modify the built environment and to make nature behave.

But we know, of course, that nature doesn't always behave.

So we have to be prepared for that, too, because nature is unpredictable.

We know that one season varies from another and we have that experience in the course of our lifetimes.

Some years it rains a lot.

Some years it doesn't rain so much.

What we see over the course of time is that ancient leaders were particularly interested in using infrastructure to be able to even out those time periods of abundance and lack in the natural environment.

So people created canals and reservoirs.

They created cisterns, wells.

For example, if you think about great ancient cities in Mexico, like Chichen Itza, there were places called Cenote this, which were places of collecting water during the rainy season to serve over times of drought.

So the idea of collecting and saving water is something that has been part of ancient urban life for a very long time.

Sometimes the engineering expertise comes along with architectural expertise to produce very beautiful landscape modifications like the aqueduct and the Romans built more than a thousand aqueduct all around the Mediterranean in places like France and Spain, in Jordan and Syria and Tunisia.

And those aqueducts would sometimes go for tens of miles to carry water in a gentle gradient from the mountains into the heart of cities where they would supply fountains and drinking water, and also a lot of water for industrial purposes like glassmaking and other forms of crafts.

Dr. Smith says many of the infrastructure examples from our ancient world are evident in today's world.

Cities everywhere, from Los Angeles to London, New York to New Delhi.

And as Smith explains, people often identify ancient cities with places like Jerusalem or Babylon, Rome or Athens.

However, Smith says ancient cities like Mesopotamia, even ancient cities of China, also set a blueprint for today's cities, a blueprint for opportunity.

Even when cities had an abundance of water, people still wanted more.

One great case study is the ancient city of Chang'an, which is close to the modern city of Xi'an in China.

And Chang'an was famous in ancient times 2000 years ago for being a place where eight river bodies met and still the city founders and those who were managing the water supplies of China on put in a reservoir.

The same thing is true in cities all over the world that even if there is a river or a lake, people are always interested in having more water bodies.

So, for example, in Iowa City, you've got three reservoirs.

In addition to the river.

In many parts of the United States, you have cities that also depend on wells and reservoirs and rivers and canals.

Canals were one of the ancient worlds, multiple use pieces of infrastructure.

Today, we mostly think about canals as something that is part of an older way of life.

But canals used to be the most important kind of transit and the most important kind of waterways.

So in ancient Mesopotamia, you saw canals lead off from the river into the heart of Mesopotamian cities in places all around the world.

You also saw canals becoming a supplement for the waterways like ports.

So even in modern Tokyo, for example, people are still moving goods around by Canal, even though we have highways and railroads and many other forms of transportation, because so many cities were located on the margins of rivers.

They also use those rivers to connect to others.

So if you look at cities in the United States today, for example, you might be surprised to look at the Missouri River or the Mississippi River as a connector between places that you didn't necessarily thought were connected.

One of the ways that cities are linked together is not only by roads, but also by waterways, including natural rivers.

Here in the United States, we have the Missouri River that goes all the way from Great Falls, Montana, through Bismarck, North Dakota, all the way down to Saint Louis through Omaha, Nebraska.

That is a connectivity.

That means with the drops of water that fall in the western United States come right into the heartland of America.

From Saint Louis, then the Mississippi joins up and goes through Natchez and Baton Rouge down to New Orleans, another great port in which the water of the land meets the water of the sea.

The same thing is true in ancient cities where you've got multiple cities that line up along a riverbank.

So think about the Nile as a connector not only of ancient cities, but as a connector of people and materials that went up to places like the pyramids so that they could be constructed in India.

You've got the Ganges River that links many large population centers and even in West Africa, ancient cities like Timbuktu, which we think of as being kind of famous, desert oases are actually right next to a river, too.

You think about places like the River Walk in San Antonio, which is a big economic engine in San Antonio.

This is a lot of jobs, entertainment and tourist draw in other cities.

Rivers have been a little bit neglected or overlooked, or maybe sometimes we're a little afraid of them because we only think of them as a problem in terms of flooding or other kinds of natural disasters.

Here in Los Angeles, we have an opportunity with the Los Angeles River to be able to create something that is both esthetically pleasing and environmentally sustainable.

Many people are not even quite sure where the Los Angeles River is.

But when you think about it on a map, you see that it curves through from the San Fernando Valley through downtown and then ends up at one of the world's great ports, the Port of Los Angeles, and the Port of Long Beach.

We're created where the Los Angeles River empties into the Pacific Ocean, and the Los Angeles port is the number one port in the United States.

So even though we've kind of forgotten about the Los Angeles River, it has not forgotten about us.

And as Dr. Monica Smith continues to span the globe to unearth the past in the hopes of learning more about the present, she continues to dig into the old world and document her findings to further explain how today's cities can learn from ancient cities.

Thank you so much, Monica Smith, for that interview.

And joining us now to discuss this further is Dylan Jones, a principal with Gensler Architects in Los Angeles.

Dylan is a licensed architect, an urban planner, with planning a design for both the private and public sector.

His work involves the intersection of private development and public infrastructure with mobility.

We're going to find out about that as a core building block of the 21st century sustainable city.

Also joining me is nature.

Also with guns are architects.

Nate is the regional director for Gensler's Cities and Urban Design Practice in Los Angeles.

Nate is a licensed architect and planner with an emphasis on cities as hubs for innovation.

We're going to find out about that as well.

Thank you both so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me, David.

And Dylan, as I just mentioned.

And Dylan, we'll begin with you.

Just for some background.

Let's find out about you and your part of this Gensler mobility lab I just mentioned.

What is the mobility lab?

What are your architects involved with and what are some of the groundbreaking projects you're working on?

I know some of it involves the massive plan of L.A. Metro.

So talk about that, Dylan.

Yeah.

Thank you very much and thrilled to be here.

The mobility lab was set up within Gensler to to really understand how mobility shapes the city of tomorrow.

We've had a tremendous amount of disruption in the mobility space which has been coming along with the technology disruption we're seeing more broadly in our society.

And we care about that because the way in which people move around to experience, to to connect with each other and to connect with experience and the way in which goods and services move around.

You know, these things shape the systems of mobility, which in turn shapes kind of the places we inhabit, the spaces we inhabit our cities, our streets, our blocks, our architecture.

So we've we've kind of dove in and look to take a look at that.

How are these transformations taking place and how can we help our communities and our clients think about leveraging and piecing together these new emerging systems to better help their community members connect to the experiences they want to connect with, whether it's living, working, learning or playing.

We're doing a lot of interesting work where we're doing a lot of work in the field of electrification.

Right now, as we see our systems go electric, it really changes the interplay between where we think mobility might live today and tomorrow.

Right now, you know, cars are full of gasoline, so we keep them outside and in garages.

When cars go electric, they become part of an ecosystem of consumer electronics and they can start living a little closer to where we actually inhabit space.

And we're also working with a lot of traditional kind of transportation providers, if you will, L.A. Metro, for example, where we're helping them upgrade their design guidelines system wide to better help connect their users to the new multimodal offerings that connect to their system.

We're also looking at next generation electric systems for making major transportation connections, for example, along the Sapulpa Pass, which is a major connection of the Sapulpa the Valley with with downtown L.A.. And obviously, mobility has not been something that's been done too well in the past, past decades in Los Angeles, we've literally had to have our car, You have a car in Los Angeles, you're in trouble.

So obviously, I'm guessing this is vital right now.

Dillon.

Yes, I think that that does follow my definition of sustainable city.

And along with choice, though, I would just add that, you know, cities, cities that are very successful, that are sustainable over a long period of time have proven an ability to to continually change and evolve.

You know, some of the oldest cities from the Middle East, from Africa, from Asia, from old Europe, you know, these cities are very different over the generations, over the history, over the centuries, etc.. And their ability to change and evolve has has really added to their ability to maintain a kind of resiliency or sustainability through time.

One one example closer to home stateside would be Detroit.

In 1960, Detroit had one of the highest per capita incomes in the world.

You know, it was a mecca of manufacture, ring innovation.

It was where a mass manufacturing for the automobile, you know, first took place.

And, you know, it was an incredible place of opportunity on the immigrants from all over the country, flocked there for jobs, for good, well-paying jobs.

There's a lot of institutional kind of cultural, cultural, institutional evolution there.

But, you know, you look at it ten years ago and it was on the edge of collapse.

And in one short generation, you know, with various kind of disruptions in the manufacturing process, the city really, you know, was was took a beating.

And I think what's what's interesting to see now, though, it's having another rebirth and it's starting to reinvent itself as an artistic, cultural kind of Mecca.

And people from the coasts are flooding there to look for a different kind of opportunity want around culture, art, new innovation, you know, where where you can actually find a place to live that's a little bit more more affordable.

And there are some kind of old institutions that still provide a lot of kind of infrastructure for some of those offerings.

And so what you know, I'm optimistic that Detroit will reinvent itself as, you know, a great American city as as it has been in the past.

And I think that's the story of a sustainable city, a city that can can change.

I think cities that are resistant to change, you know, they they struggle because everything is always changing around us, whether it's climate, culture, kind of macroeconomic forces, etc.. And it as I mentioned earlier, part of your work involves cities as hubs for innovation.

That sounds pretty cool, but what does that all mean?

What's the significance of this night?

Cities are really focusing on how they can attract the top talent.

That's really what it's all about.

That's the name of the game and so what cities are trying to offer is really the opportunity to be less transactional as places and more really as great places to to live as places to to grow and raise a family and so on.

So lifestyle is really the ultimate anchor for what makes cities really the most innovative.

And so what that does is that attracts the top talent, generates jobs.

It really makes the cities work better as as ecosystems that allow people to to really spend their their entire lives there and find different ways to express themselves and grow as people.

And so we're we spend a lot of time working with cities to make them really more robust and provide people more choice.

And so things like open spaces, culture and events, more affordable housing, more employment opportunities, these are the elements of what makes cities the most innovative.

And so in North America, we have a lot of work to do.

You know, cities really were designed in North America as as places of transaction and not necessary Philly, especially central business district as a place to live.

And so we're learning from some of the great models around the world in terms of how to make the central core of cities in North America or interesting places to be.

And and it's just a much more efficient and effective way to live.

And so that's what the most innovative cities in North America are really focusing on right now is is making them more robust, complex and provide more choice for people to live and work.

With that said, Nate, what is your definition of a sustainable city?

We hear the word sustainable all the time.

Oftentimes it can be overused, but what is a sustainable city today?

One of the interesting things about cities that's kind of a contradiction to your question is cities are competitive places.

They're really how regions compete.

And so cities are constantly in a dynamic of competing against other cities and other regions.

And so that has to be balanced with sort of the the key factors that people are looking for when they consider whether or not to live in a city, and that those four factors are affordability.

Does the city have affordable choices for me to live?

Affordable housing.

The cost of living is is, you know, within my means.

That's the first factor in what makes a city really sustain able.

The second is economic opportunity.

Are there jobs?

Are there places where I can invest in my in my family, in my career that provide me a leg up, that provide me a competitive advantage?

That's the second piece of what makes cities sustainable.

The third is safety.

I want to be able to live in a city where I feel safe that I can, you know, raise my family.

And I don't feel like I'm I'm, you know, under threat.

That's a key factor.

And the fourth is convenience.

Are things within close distance so that I'm not spending a lot of time searching for goods and services that I need?

Recently, there's been a huge movement in making cities what they call regenerative.

So cities traditionally have extracted services and energy and so on from its region, and there's increasing interest in making cities be able to generate their own power and create their own green industries.

And so they're not as extract deaf from the natural environment.

And that is a new trend, which is another layer which makes cities more sustainable.

But our ultimate lead, those four factors affordability, opportunity, safety and convenience are what really make cities sustainable over time.

Dylan Is that your definition also of a sustainable city?

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right.

I mean, a city is so much more than brick and mortar.

And, you know, it's it's important to take a step back and think about what what do we mean when we use the word city?

I think what we're really talking about is a great collection of people, more people, you know, people concentrated in a certain geographic area.

And when you have big collections of people, you get a lot of diversity of ideas, a lot of diversity of thought, and you have a tremendous amount of innovation around social infrastructure, social ideals, norms, belief systems, kind of cultural innovations, if you will, not necessarily just technological innovations.

And this is really important.

This is where different kind of ideas about family and structure and governance and and community are tested in in a kind of a concentrated area and sometimes in competing ways and sometimes in conflicting ways.

And I think I think this, again, is really important.

There's a lot of conflict in cities, and that's both good and bad.

And it's not, you know, not having a value judgment and just just being aware that this is happening around us.

And it has been happening through time and led to the kind of advancement of civilization more generally.

Sometimes at the other end of that conflict, you know, peace is founded, a new kind of understanding and a new, new way of kind of working together collaboratively and sometimes conflict, you know, you know, comes with tragedy.

And we've seen that in our cities.

I mean, the burning of the great Library of Alexandria and that kind of knowledge that was lost there, you know, cities razed to the ground or famines or, you know, warfare or, you know, great tragedies, but also, you know, great successes, you know, and great, great works of art and literature and cultural innovations.

I mean, our ability in our cities today to work collaborative early, to live amongst each other with with a wide diversity of of kind of religious beliefs and social understandings and structure is an incredible test meant to to our ability to come together in cities and and learn how to live together.

And, you know, I think I think that's a really important function that cities bring to us more broadly and why it's important not to lose lose our faith in their ability to help us as people kind of further develop the, you know, civilization, if you will, or the kind of deeper human purpose of coming together and helping each other.

So, yeah, cities are not just technologically focused.

It's not just about brick and mortar.

It's really about people.

And as designers, you know, we're really focused on people in the experience of their lived lives, and that's, you know, that's where we as Gensler, I think, are very, very interested in this conversation.

We're super appreciate being a part of it.

Thank you.

Dylan Jones and Nate Sherry, thank you both so much for a great discussion.

Thanks for having.

Thanks for having me, David.

And now for more information about our program, just click on KLCS.org and then click Contact us to send us your questions and comments or story ideas so we can hear from you all.

Be sure to get back with you and be sure to catch our program here on PBS or catch us on a PBS mobile app for All Things Sustainable.

Thank you so much for joining us for this edition of Sustaining US here on KLCS PBS.

I'm David Nazar.