You.

Hello, and welcome to the bookmark.

I'm Christine Brown, your host.

Today, my guest is Laura Rahn, author of Andrew Sansom A Life in Conservation.

Laura, thank you so much for being here.

It's my pleasure.

Well, I want to ask you to start by just introducing this book to us.

The book is a biography of Andy Sansom, as you mentioned, and I wrote it because I love biographies.

Personally, I think that biographies tell us about how individuals react to what are usually a fairly predictable set of circumstances in their lives.

For Andy, his life's work was protecting a half million acres of land in Texas state parks.

His leadership and his his his role model, really for the future of the environmental movement.

So for all of those reasons, I felt that it was a good project.

And how did you how did you come to meet Andy?

How do you how do you know him?

Well, I first met Andy in the early aughts.

We worked together on a water project.

I have a public relations firm that specializes in the water industry.

Andy was working on the same water project, and so we we got to know each other just briefly then.

And then after that, I actually met him more formally at a Texas book festival at the turn to that, to A&M press had for one of Andy's books that he was involved in in the early aughts.

And then did the relationship because continue to grow from there?

It did.

We ended up working on a couple of more projects together and we I should say I was privileged to be part of Andy's kind of regular circle of his breakfasts, as anyone who knows Andy knows, he he made a habit of having regular regular breakfasts in Austin and he he would really network that way and keep up his relationships with all kinds of people, whether they were consultants or the journalists, Andy, or students.

So Andy made it a real priority in his life to cultivate his relationships.

So how did the how did the topic of a biography come up?

I know there was some discussions about who would write it.

Would he write it.

Would it be an autobiography or a memoir?

How did how did that conversation come up?

Well, the way it came up initially is that I was at a party where a number of Andy's ardent followers, were were enjoying themselves.

And so we were having a conversation then and some of these ardent followers were saying, you know, we think that Andy should write a memoir.

And the problem is that Andy was telling them he didn't have time.

He was busy.

And so my ears perk up and say, busy, busy.

He's busy.

I, I could I could ghostwrite anything for Andy.

I could, I could ghostwrite a memoir, I could ghostwrite an autobiography and he could put his own touch on it, his own flavor, his own, his own voice on, on, on anything.

Conversations ensued after that with with Andy and with various other players in the picture.

And the question was put to Andy, would you like to have a memoir?

Would you like an autobiography or would you like a biography?

And Andy said, I think I'd like to have a biography written by Laura.

So I was thrilled.

That's wonderful that he.

Yeah, he put your name forward.

So what what made you so interested in what was so appealing about the topic of of Andy as a as a biography subject?

What was so fascinating about Andy were several things.

One, of course, was his work in environmental conservation, the lifelong efforts that he had made to protect critical areas, ecosystems, to protect the floor, the fauna.

I was also fascinated by Andy's leadership.

His approach to leadership is something that is somewhat out of fashion in today's world.

We are seeing leadership today that is really characterized more and more by extremes.

Whereas Andy looks for the middle.

Andy looks for a balance.

Today's leadership is very much is often driven by, by power just for the for for the sake of power.

Andy looks for leadership that's based on collaboration.

Today's leadership often really discounts empirical evidence.

Science based policy is increasingly.

It's sometimes actually held in contempt.

Andy spent his life looking for policy that is grounded in science based evidence and policy that can that can survive the test of time.

So when all of those regards that his leadership was something that I wanted to hold up, especially for leaders who are, just in their formative years, today, they are perhaps less aware that there was a, a different kind of leadership that was practiced in the past and that that could be practiced in the future.

So environmental work that Andy did, his leadership style and as well Andy's role as a as a civil servant, as a public servant, once again, in today's world, we are increasingly hearing that government employees and public servants are not really worth their time.

They're not worth their pay.

They're being let go.

And that institutional knowledge is walking out the door.

Andy has devoted his life to serving the public, and it is a noble calling.

And he exemplifies that.

So, to you, you get this kind of boost from him or nomination from him, I guess, to write the book.

How do you go about starting, have you written a book before?

Have you?

I know you've written before, but how do you how do you transition from the idea to the actual work of the book?

Well, the first thing is, of course, for the A&M University Press, there's a proposal.

So it's it's required to start getting thoughts in order.

After that, I was very fortunate to have a book coach who was a, a former editor at A&M press.

And so in that regard, it was, a real help to have a book coach who could transition me from being a journalist into being, a book author.

And that requires taking skills that I'd spent most of my career doing as a journalist and then as a public relations practitioner.

But then reapplying, applying those skills in a different format, which is the book.

Other challenges that, came about was a course that I started the book at the beginning of Covid, and it immediately became clear to me that I was going to have to persuade the subjects for my book to be interviewed on zoom.

It's hard now, five years down the road, to remember that.

And, you know, five years ago it was less common in the professional world and in the book, but in all worlds, professional world of all sort to use video calls as a form of interviewing, particularly for a book.

But in the beginning of Covid, there was there was no other option.

So the good news is that I found a receptivity to using video calls, but it added a whole new challenge, really, to, to, to to the development of the book.

So, let's talk about the development of the book.

I know you did a lot of interviews, but what other kinds of research?

And can you talk about the interview process?

So the interview process, as I said, was, was, was certainly in the beginning, largely on zoom.

I was fortunate once again, with Andy's very wide network.

He has as as I mentioned earlier, he has cultivated relationships of such a wide variety that it was in some ways hard to just narrow down who would be the pivotal players, who would be the the critical voices that I would interview?

And in fact, one of the very big challenges I had in all of the interviewing was to find anyone who would say even the slightest thing that was critical about Andy.

It it took quite a while, and it was something that I felt that I needed to have at least some voice that might depart from the, you know, the sort of putting Andy on a pedestal, because clearly I wanted the book to be a three dimensional, picture of Andy.

And so in that regard, that was it was a bit of a challenge.

I never really found anyone who would say anything truly critical, but, but, but, but the intent was to have a full fledged three dimensional picture of Andy.

Did you, you did a lot of interviews with some names we might recognize too.

There's some, there's some heavy hitters in here, some political figures.

It.

Yes.

There are, there's, it's kind of like a who's who.

Oh yes.

To Texas politics.

Yes.

Well the great thing about Andy is that I, I realized, you know, as I was researching and writing the book, that he almost reminded me of that Woody Allen film, you know, Zelig, wherever that, you know, like, Woody Allen shows up and in history and all of these and, and these sort of cameo shots.

So the, you know, Andy's role.

So one of my favorite, of course, is he Andy was involved in the first Earth Day.

And we're coming up on Earth Day of 2025 soon.

You know, next week for us.

And Andy was instrumental in in helping to organize the first Earth Day and got to meet major names involved in the first Earth Day.

So, you know, Senator Gaylord Nelson.

And, you know, at this stage, you know, people often forget that Republican senators, senators, US senators were very instrumental in the environmental movement.

And that was, of course, the lead in to the Nixon administration and their landmark legislation with regard to the environment.

Other characters that pop up in Andy's life are Dick Cheney.

I mean, just by coincidence, you know, Andy and known to move to DC and lo and behold, and they they move into an apartment complex.

And right below them are, you know, Dick and Lynne Cheney, and then and then Liz Cheney, who's, you know, four years old, you know, when they arrive.

So there's the Dick Cheney thing.

And then, of course, later on, Andy serves in state government here and in Texas.

He's, you know, with parks and Wildlife and served through, I guess, four governors, which are all household names, you know, Ann Richards and and going through, George Bush and, and and to, you know, Governor Perry and not to mention you, you know, Lieutenant Governor Bullock.

So these are all real icons of Texas history.

And that was a fascinating part of chronicling and Andy's life are these these characters who were really instrumental in informing policy in whatever their, their particular niche was, to go back to what you said about his, his leadership and his ability to work with people.

I think that that's one of my my favorite throughline is you see how he's working with these different characters, these different these names that I understand and I assign traits to I and Richards, I think in this way.

And Governor Bush, I think of this way, governor, and seeing how he relates to each one and manages to work with each one is is, like you say, a fascinating study in working with what you've got in front of you.

It's a gift that Andy had and has and the ability and that is the ability to meet people where they are.

Andy was able, throughout his career to find common ground while maintaining respect on all sides.

This is a virtue.

This is a gift that I would suggest is sorely needed in today's world.

And Andy modeled that sort of behavior.

He did it because he cultivated he cultivated humility.

He cultivated the ability once again to make compromise a virtue, not a vice.

Compromise in many circles, today is is held in contempt.

And he made it a virtue.

And he spent his life really drilling down to find that common ground.

He he was more than a performative politician.

And in the end, he reaped the reward through all of those relationships.

And you can see that today in Andy's life, he gets yet another lifetime achievement award.

You know, he can't even he doesn't even have enough room on all of his bookshelves for all of the awards that he has received.

And I just at the risk of repetition, I can't say enough that that that this kind of leadership is something that I would like our leaders of the future to be aware of, that there is an alternative to to what we're seeing today.

Absolutely.

Well, I'd like to talk a little more in specifics about Andy's life and what he did.

I'm we're going to have to skip a lot of the beginning, so I would hope people would read about his early life and about his work in DC and how when he first came back to Texas, he was trying on different hats, because I think you really see the seeds in all of those jobs and experiences.

But I want to highlight, you know, his major achievements, when he started with The Nature Conservancy here in Texas, because that was a position where he really expanded and elevated, I would say the chapter here in Texas, he did, and it was a pivotal time for environmental work in Texas until the sort of early 80s, environmental work in Texas was often done by by individuals who took on causes.

And those are chronicled in the book.

It was really about the time that Andy joined the Nature Conservancy, that these and these national environmental groups were starting to become more professional in the state of Texas.

And that's what Andy did.

He took over the Nature Conservancy here in Texas when they were operating out of a low rent office on Sixth Street here in Austin, which was above a pawn shop and Andy formalized the he stabilized really the the finances of the Nature Conservancy.

As soon as he stepped into the job, he had to immediately negotiate a deal that was for a prime piece of land.

It was Honey Creek.

As it turns out, and Andy needed to step right in and start raising money to fulfill the obligations that the Nature Conservancy had taken on.

Andy expanded the staff.

Ultimately, he felt that he needed to move the offices from Austin to San Antonio, which was all part of this, raising the level of awareness of The Nature Conservancy, making it more professional, giving it a stable financial footing here in Texas.

And all of that was in the back as a as a backdrop against other environmental organizations that were also becoming more professional here in Texas.

So he was on the leading edge of of that movement that we saw in Texas.

And then from there he goes to Texas Parks and Wildlife.

And to me, this is I will say, if you're a long time watcher, the show he was on the show when we talked about the book about Art of State Parks.

And I was trying to get him to talk about his work, acquiring parks and acquiring land.

And he's just so humble.

He didn't really want to brag on himself, but I think we can do that for him now, because the work he did there, protecting land and acquiring land, is so vital to the the makeup of our, of our state park system and our protected wildlife and all that stuff.

So can you please can you please brag on him for him?

Yes, I would, I would be delighted.

So Andy started at Parks and Wildlife, in land acquisition, and then after a couple of years there, moved into as executive director of the, of the agency.

And he's managed to double the size of state parks during his tenure there.

And what is one of the most fascinating things about Andy is his formula.

How did Andy manage to persuade landowners in a state where, you know, 95% of the land is privately owned and a small percentage only is publicly owned?

How did he manage to persuade these landowners to to protect their lands?

Because Texas is usually known for monetizing natural resources as opposed to conserving them, Andy, Andy, and Andy perfected a formula.

He would identify the kinds of landowners who could see that there was as much emotional return on their investment in their property as there was in the monetary return on on their land.

He could identify the sorts of landowners that he could talk to, that he could establish a rapport with.

He would then negotiate.

And when Andy negotiated, it was not the kind of negotiated negotiations that we often hear about today.

In today's world, negotiations are often cast as a zero sum game.

It's you win or I win.

It's all winning or it's all losing.

Andy really was able to achieve win wins.

People view that as a cliche.

It's not a cliche.

Andy understood that to reach a win win, you need to have a relationship with the the person on the other side that you are negotiating with.

And so he gave another whole, I would say, dimension to the art of negotiation, the art of the deal, if I might say there's another way of interpreting that.

Andy perfected it.

So this ability to persuade landowners to protect their lands in wildlife management areas, in state natural areas, in state parks, and all of the sorts of ways that land can be protected.

Andy and Andy was able to work with landowners and show them that it was a win win for posterity to think beyond just, just, just the ability to make money in today's world, but to think about the generations to come and the generations who will be impacted by all the climactic, impacts that we see that are affecting the the flora, the fauna, in our environment that Andy worked so hard to protect.

I think that was one of my favorite parts of the book is, is the stories about how he did that, him, him cultivating these relationships, going to their land with them, going on hunting trips, just being there as a person, not just as somebody to to make a deal or to do numbers.

You know, he was he really humanized and was empathetic, I think, to to these landowners to understand where they're coming from.

So that like you say, all needs can be met.

It can be a win win situation.

In the end, he became friends with them.

I mean, personal friends.

There were there were some of these deals where he, you know, some some of the families actually had to sell because they, they, they in fact did have to monetize the property in order to preserve a smaller amount of multi-generational land.

But but Andy wept at some of these things.

And, and then, of course, he was also overjoyed at, at, some of the situations where he was able to again preserve the access to these lands for the for the public at large.

They're just wonderful stories.

I if you're, if you if you love your state parks, that you love your natural areas, I would hope people would read these stories because how they got to be saved is is a fascinating history.

And I do want to highlight to, the, the end sheet, the, the can.

When you open the book cover, there's a photo there or a drawing, a map there of of all the lands that, that Andy has saved.

Can you talk about how that why that was so important for you to include the visual impact of his, of his life's work?

It was very important to visual depict the breadth and the scope of of Andy's work.

So in the front of the book and in the back of the book, there is a map that shows the more than 100 lands that Andy critical, lands that Andy helped protect, and what visually you can take away from that.

Is it across the state, whether, again, whether they're parks, whether they're state natural areas, wildlife management areas, fish hatcheries, you all you do is just cast an eye across and the image speaks for itself because of the the breadth and the scope.

And it's it's just in 1 in 1 nugget in 10s your eye can land on that and you can see what what what a sweep.

A grand sweep of Andy's lifetime of work, that is, I think that is maybe the most one of the most important or impactful parts of the book is because, you know, as a Texan, we maybe all have our little pet areas or our little favorite spots that we are nostalgic for, or we visited or something like that.

And Andy protected all of it for us.

So wherever you're from or wherever you love, there's a place nearby that he has protected for you to be able and your children, you know, grandchildren to be able to access and visit and I just think that that like, it's it's speaks for itself.

It's, it's, it's it does.

And I would just say that the map shows you it's all the way from Big Bend, which is about as dry and desert like as you can get all the way to the east side of the Big Thicket, which is the opposite side of the, you know, the climactic spectrum, as well as all the way in the North, you know, with the, you know, the bison herds and all the way to the south with Matagorda Island and the coastal work that Andy did.

So regardless of what part of the state that you might prefer or, you know, love the most, it once again shows Andy's ability to to speak to people of coming from different parts of the state.

Once again, his his ability, his ability to establish a rapport.

And I think that that that illustrates that ability well.

We're running a little short on time, but I do want to make sure we talk about, his after he left parks, his kind of final, professional, capacity was at the Meadows Center in San Marcos and shining a light on on water and how important it is to our state.

Can you talk just a little bit about his work at the Meadows Center?

Yes.

It was instrumental in lifting the Meadows Center.

From what, what and what?

The institute.

When Andy arrived at Texas State University, it was the River Systems Institute.

And Andy almost immediately began work on elevating the institute into the Meadows Center.

Of course, with the very generous help of the of the Meadows Foundation and other other foundations, as well, Andy's vision was to lift that institute into a player in the water and environmental world of Texas, to be a player in the policy, to be a player in the research, and to add that science based empirical evidence, aspect to that is so sorely needed when we are developing policy for, for the state policy that it's grounded, that is sustainable.

You know, sustainability is a theme throughout Andy's lifetime.

And his work at the Meadows Center was very much devoted to making the Meadows Center, a, a player in that world.

And then and then to carry on after Andy's succession as he then set the Meadows center up to become increasingly a player in the sustainability field, which is, you know, so important for a state like Texas, which is so vulnerable to drought, vulnerable to, to heat and, or, you know, to the toggling back and forth between the flooding and the drought.

So, so, Andy expanded the staff he created, endowed, you know, chairs and did what was needed to make the Meadows Center a real, a real player in the in the scope of Texas policy.

Absolutely.

Well, like I said, we are short on time.

So in our in our final minute here, what do you want people to take away from, from this book and from from Andy story.

So I would like people to take away several things.

One is his leadership.

I've talked about his pragmatism, about his balance, about his ability to connect to people and his ability to show that civil servanthood is a noble calling.

I would like people to take away that, that that Andy has, a legacy that, that he can share with the future leaders.

And that is, once again, his his devotion to to sustainability, his devotion to rescuing the world.

As we approach a tipping point, Andy laid out, a path of, of leadership, of research, of education for this, this tipping point that we are facing and I think that Andy's humility is something that is, a virtue that is not fully appreciated and that Andy epitomizes the, the, the success that leaders can achieve when they when they show servant leadership, as it were.

Wonderful.

Well, we're out of time, so we have to leave it there.

But that's a wonderful message, I think, to leave it on.

Thank you so much for being here, for writing this book for for talking to us about it.

The book again, is Andrew Sansom A Life in Conversation.

Thank you so much for joining us, and I will see you again soon.