(upbeat music) - [Narrator] Major support for Carolina Business Review provided by Colonial Life, providing benefits to employees to help them protect their family, their finances, and their futures.

High point university, the premier life skills university, focused on preparing students for the world as it is going to be.

And SONOCO, a global manufacturer of consumer and industrial packaging products, and provider of packaging services with more than 300 operations in 35 countries.

- Well the focus now is commercial activity.

You can tell the health of any community, large town, small town, by its commercial activity.

I'm Chris William and welcome again to the most widely watched and longest running program on Carolina business policy and public affairs scene each and every week across North and South Carolina.

In a moment, we start with the commercial activity measurement with our guests and later on joining us again, he is the South Carolina leader.

The majority leader of the Senate, Shane Massey joins us, and we hope you'll stay with us.

- [Narrator] Gratefully acknowledging support by Martin Marietta, a leading provider of natural resource based building materials, providing the foundation upon which our communities improve and grow.

Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, an independent licensee of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association.

Visit us at SouthCarolinaBlues.com.

The Duke Endowment, a private foundation enriching communities in the Carolinas through higher education, healthcare, rural churches, and children's services.

(upbeat music) On this edition of Carolina Business Review, Christopher Chung from the Economic Development Partnership of North Carolina, Jody Bryson, from the South Carolina Technology And Aviation Center, and special guest Shane Massey, South Carolina State Senator.

(upbeat music) - Happy spring, welcome to our program, Chris, nice to see you.

Jody, welcome to the dialogue, Mr. Chung let me start with you.

You know, it's easy to gauge the health of a small town or a big city by looking at commercial activity, and commercial activity is obviously has been the front and center when it comes to this public health crisis.

On a scale of one to 10, 10 being the best, would you say that commercial activity is a 10, a five, a one, where do you think we are now?

- Well, first off, Chris, it's great to be with you.

I hope you've been staying safe over the past 13, 14 months or so since we last we're in the studio together.

Hopefully you've at least got one, maybe two of your vaccine shots.

I would say the number varies a lot, depending on what sector we're talking about.

As you know, our organization's responsible for among other things, recruiting companies to North Carolina and helping existing firms to expand.

That activity has been far, far stronger than anyone would have predicted when you go back to March of 2020 at the onset of this pandemic, right?

I mean, I think all of us in economic development were just wondering when the bottom might fall out, we were seeing deals get canceled, we were seeing very few new projects coming in through the door, and it was like that for a couple months.

And then starting in about June, it's been gangbusters ever since that point, lots of great announcements, lots of projects, we have the chance to compete for.

On the other side, of course, we are also responsible for tourism promotion for North Carolina.

And as you have covered a lot Chris, you know that the tourism, leisure, hospitality sectors, a lot of those small businesses who make up our big tourism economy, they've really felt the brunt of the economic damage from the pandemic.

Now things are getting better, and of course the leisure travels doing a lot better than business travel, but really, it's hard to generalize a number because it really varies so much depending on what sector that you're talking about.

- Jody, would you say gangbusters, is that a good way to describe commercial activities as you see it?

- I would, just very similar to what Chris has explained, we saw a law last March for a few weeks, and then unexpectedly, project activity started to increase and grow again and I would say 2021 is off to blow a roaring start.

So we're very encouraged by that.

- One of the things that continually comes up and in quite frankly, and I know you both know this it was an issue before we even had heard the term COVID 19, or public health crisis.

And this idea of finding workers for the jobs that are available, that seems to have been a two or three ex-exacerbation since all of this happened.

So what's the working model gonna be?

How do we get through this problem of finding enough workers especially when people now seem to be unmotivated because of federal unemployment benefits.

What's the answer, Chris, where do we start?

- Well, you're right that it's a big challenge.

You would think unemployment being at least here in North Carolina, a couple percent above where we were before we entered into the pandemic, you would think that that would have relieved a lot of the pressure that manufacturers and other employers were facing, in attracting skilled qualified workers.

The reality as you just pointed out, is that across pretty much any industry, manufacturing and otherwise, it's still not as easy as we want it to be for companies to recruit skilled talent.

And that's in a state like North Carolina that continues to grow because of immigration of people moving here.

So I can only imagine what it's like in other states, maybe in the middle part of the country, where you're not seeing that kind of population growth.

I think there's two things, right?

Like you said, there's been some financial incentive through unemployment payments for perhaps some of the workforce to stay at home, but there's also been a very real human concern about exposing one's self and one's family to this Coronavirus by going back to work.

And that's also kept a lot of people on the sidelines.

Now, hopefully as a country, we're making progress on the public health aspect, but that may take a while for people to feel comfortable getting back into the workforce.

I think schools reopening, that's been a big part of what's liberated some of the workforce to feel like they can reenter, go back to work, but it's not an easy situation, and I think as the economy continues to accelerate in its recovery, all it's going to do is exacerbate this challenge that so many companies are having in finding, hiring and retaining the types of workers that they need to be successful.

It's a real challenge for sure, and I don't think it's unique to North Carolina.

- Jody, would you describe it as a desperate situation, trying to find these workers?

- I don't think it's at the desperation point in South Carolina.

Workforce is been a challenge in the SouthEast for a number of years, and I know North Carolina, South Carolina have worked hard to come up with creative solutions, customized training programs to support the new businesses and industries that are coming in.

And I will continue to do that.

And so I think, yes, it's a concern, yes, companies are... We're scrambling in some cases and across certain industry sectors, but I'm very optimistic, and I think that the creative solutions that South Carolina has employed in the past will continue to be used in the future, and I think we'll be all right.

And again, a lot of population is moving to the Southeast as a result of the pandemic.

And the housing markets are exploding from a selling perspective, and so we've got... We do have new workers moving into our states and in our areas and communities, and I think that's gonna help as well.

- Jody, specifically, will stay with you for a second in the South Carolina Technology and Aviation Center in the upstate of which you know a little bit about.

This idea, do you feel like the Palmetto State has learned a valuable lesson?

Not that this was not a concern before, but is there a new strategy now, that South Carolina had done so well, developing automotive and aerospace, that was also the Achilles heel in when cars and planes ran into the issue that they ran in these last 12 months.

It exposed the underbelly of having too much concentration in two industries.

Is South Carolina supplanting that high concentration with a different portfolio?

- Well, I think we will continue to support aviation and automotive, those are the two largest industry sectors in the state.

But I don't think that has been supported to the detriment of the other industry sectors.

Life sciences, for example, has been on a roll in South Carolina, especially in the Charleston area as well as the upstate.

And of course, we have many many types of advanced manufacturing across the state.

And those companies have been growing and expanding, and then distribution logistics has also been a very high growth area for us.

So, I think that you'll continue to see all of those sectors do well as we come out of this pandemic.

And so I'm not too concerned that those are... That automotive and aerospace are top sectors for us, because I do think there are a lot of sectors right behind those that continue to grow and succeed as well.

- Our guest is not a freshman to South Carolina politics, certainly not to senior leadership, he is the chairman of the South Carolina Senate Rules Committee, he's also the majority leader of the South Carolina Senate.

We welcome now the South Carolina State Senator, from district 25, those are Western South Carolina counties, the honorable Shane Massey Senator, welcome to the dialogue, nice to see you, sir.

- Thanks Chris, thanks for having me back.

- Let me outline a couple of things here just briefly, you had a 30 member caucus in the South Carolina Senate, the South Carolina budget now is probably not overstating, it to say, it's flushed with cash, billions, in fact.

So you have a probably a pretty exciting agenda ahead of you, what are your one or two top priority, sir?

- Yeah, you know, South Carolina has been very fortunate.

We were doing very very well, heading into COVID.

We took some hits over the year economically, in different parts of the state, different economic sectors took some significant hit, so we're still recovering from that.

But we were in a good enough position that we didn't have to cut anything in our budget over the year, we didn't have to borrow money to pay unemployment claims, so we were in a really good spot.

And recently, what we've learned as you mentioned, our economy has been performing very well with people working, and people spending money.

And so it does appear that we're gonna have a significant amount of money for the next fiscal year.

And we're gonna... On the Senate side, we're gonna take up the budget next week, and we'll get into that compensation.

- Are you encouraged that you'll be able to find a consensus to spend that money, what is thought to be responsibly?

- Yeah, I think we'll get a consensus.

There's gonna be obviously a good bit of conversation about that, and there gonna be a lot of different ideas.

And you mentioned that we have 30 Republicans now out of 46, that's a big number, and that really, frankly it changed the governing philosophy of the body from where we were before.

So there are gonna be some real conversations about that.

I don't think we're gonna do the budget as we've always done it.

Things are gonna be different now.

But I think we'll work together, we'll figure out a way to make that work and to do it responsibly.

I mean, we have some needs, we have some infrastructure needs, we have capital project needs, a lot of things that have been neglected for many years.

Of course, we've got a big issue with broadband across the state, everyone having access.

I think there are a number of things that we're gonna look at.

- We're gonna open this up.

Chris, Jody, please.

- So Senator Massey, I'll start, obviously George is the latest example of this, but there's been increasing occasions in this country where legislation and policy sometimes run against, what the business community is looking for demands.

I'm just curious, how do you, as a legislative leader in South Carolina, how do you navigate that increasing challenge and kind keep everybody in line, but also send the right signals to businesses that are looking at the right places to grow and invest.

- Yeah, that's a great question, and you're right.

It is a regular challenge.

So, you know what I try to do, is I'll listen to you, I'll listen to anybody, and I've been a very pro-business legislator (indistinct) and I've supported those things that has allowed a lot of businesses to come to South Carolina, has encouraged a lot of businesses into South Carolina.

We've done very well with the business climate, that we have created over the years that has got us in the position that we're in now, that allowed for the economic position that we're in.

But sometimes you do have that conflict, and I think it's important for us to remember, even though we may be dealing with businesses or their lobbyists on a regular basis, people from back home, who sent us to Columbia to represent them, they may think along the same lines, they may be different too.

So I think it's important that we listen, that we have very open and candid conversations with business folks.

I think like man, 90% of the time, I'm gonna be on the team.

But if there are times when I think that business interest is contrary to those who sent me to Columbia to represent them, I'm gonna go with the folks back home.

- [Chris] Jody.

- Thank you, Senator, It's good to be with you today.

You probably know, the South Carolina Technology and Aviation Center is now an F-16 global center of excellence as a result of Lockheed Martin, not only producing the world's most sophisticated F-16 aircraft, but also now having a long-term contract to do Mainers repair and overhaul work.

We also are very involved in supporting the state's automotive industry.

A few years ago, we redeveloped a closed runway property into an automotive test track.

And today, we have a number of customers who are utilizing that track on a regular basis, even including some from our Arab friends in North Carolina.

You mentioned the economy was on a roll before the pandemic hit, and it seems to be coming back strongly, but I just was curious, in your role, are you seeing any particular initiatives that will come through the legislature that would continue to support not only aerospace and automotive but advanced manufacturing which is so important to our state?

- Yeah, Jody, I'm glad you brought that up.

Like I just think it's really cool that we're building fighter jets in Greenville South Carolina.

I just think that's awesome, and it's one of those things where... And this is a little bit of a tangent, but I think it's important that we expose our students to those opportunities that they know those things are going on, because there are a lot of kids who don't know that's happening, especially kids from rural South Carolina who don't know that those career opportunities exist.

And so, I'm glad we're able to talk about it on this program, we need to do a better job, of getting that word out to South Carolina's children, so that they know that those opportunities are there.

Plus again, I'm a kid at heart anyway, but I think they're just gonna think it's cool, that we're building fighter jets in South Carolina.

Those things are awesome.

I'll tell you two things real quick in response to that question that Jody.

One of them is, one of the things that we heard a lot from businesses, small, large, and even nonprofits was some desire to have protection from COVID lock from lawsuits, from COVID exposures.

And so we took a very strong stance and we were candidly, we were behind North Carolina on this one, they moved more aggressively more quickly.

But what we've tried to do is say, look, here are the rules, we're gonna tell you what the rules are, as long as you comply with the rules, if somebody happens to get sick anyway, we're not going to allow you to be sued because of that.

But I think that's important for businesses to be able to bring back their workforce in person, for customers to come into the different businesses.

That's one thing.

The second thing is, Jody, as you know, one of South Carolina's big assets is the Port of Charleston.

And the port has allowed us to become the major manufacturing powerhouse that we are.

Without that port, we would not have been nearly as successful in recruiting that industry to South Carolina.

What we've learned, however, is that, we have become a little bit uncompetitive, that some other states, Savannah is a good example, but some other ports along the Atlantic coast have been investing more in their system and we've gotten a little bit behind.

So we need to make some more investments, and one of those is, the one that we made had the most conversation about most recently, is ensuring that we get mirror dock, rail access.

We get the rail lines up close to the dock, which would take a lot of trucks off the road, but it would also make the whole process work more efficiently and really strengthen our port.

I think that's gonna be a big benefit to manufacturing in South Carolina.

- Your honor, let me brief.

Let me follow on with that, 'cause these are two important things.

You talk about the ports and some of your colleagues in leadership and political leadership would like the ports to have a different structure.

That they don't want it to be an agency.

And speaking of that, how would you... What scenario could you see that would allow or will Santee Cooper, can Santee Cooper could it continue to go on as a public utility for the low country and the grand strand, do you see that as a possibility?

- Not in its current format.

I think the way that it is now, is a model that has proven that it's not gonna work.

And I know Santee Cooper has been trying very very hard to fix some of the problems, and they've been successful to some degree.

I'm concerned however, that really what they've done is they've provided a three to five-year band-aid, and that after about five years or so, we're gonna get into more problems at Santee Cooper, unless we make some more significant reforms.

Santee Cooper is operated almost as completely without any outside oversight.

There's been no regulatory influence, and there are reasons for that.

But I think the time has changed, and the experiences that we've had to get us to this point, lead us to believe that if Santee Cooper is gonna remain a state agency, there's gonna have to be more oversight of that entire process, there gonna have to be changes with the board, there's going to be changes in management, just a real cultural change has to happen at Santee Cooper.

Now, Chris, to your point two, there's gonna be a lot of interest in selling Santee Cooper.

That initially came about because of the debt they incurred related to V.C.

Summer, the failed nuclear plant, but there are other issues at Santee Cooper beyond just V.C.

Summer.

In fact, I've told people lots of times, V.C.

Summer gave us the reason to look under the hood, and when we looked under the hood, we didn't like what we saw.

So I think there's going to be significant changes made at Santee Cooper.

- [Chris] Chris.

- So I'm gonna ask a question more about like, how do you prioritize your budget around economic development.

I'm gonna try to pose it in a way that I usually ask your counterparts here in North Carolina.

So if you had $1 to spend on economic development for North Carolina, and you could only spend it on workforce and education, infrastructure, taxes and incentives or marketing, how would you split that dollar up among those four priorities?

Again, workforce and education, infrastructure, marketing and taxes and incentives.

- You're asking hard questions.

- Just trynna understand what our competitors is doing.

- Yeah, I don't know that I wanna reveal all that.

Well, in South Carolina, of that $1, currently, 50 cents of it is going to education right now.

I think we need to do a better job, in how we spend that 50 cents first of all, I'm okay with that 50 cents going there, so that answers part of your question.

But I think we need to do a better job of how we're allocating that and making sure that we're getting a real bang for the buck.

And part of that, that feeds into the workforce part of your question as well, because we have to make sure that our children are exposed to the opportunities that are available today, and that will be available in the future.

So I think we need to invest in making sure that business and government coordinate better and communicate, so that... Business knows what their workforce needs are, they know what their workforce needs are gonna be in the next several years.

What we've got to do is communicate better, so that we offer the technical college programs, or the four year programs, or even just the programs in our high schools to allow people, children, students to compete for those positions.

So I would put some... Definitely put some of that money into workforce, in addition to education, there gonna be part of that $1 is gonna have to go to two incentives, I wish that were not the case, unfortunately, that's just the world we live in, a number of our folks in the legislature say we shouldn't have to bribe people to come to paradise.

And I do think that South Carolina offers a lot of great things that attract people to come here regardless.

But look, man, you all in North Carolina, you're pretty cut throat, man.

I mean the competition is tough, but it's also with Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, Alabama, Virginia, everybody around us, it's a very competitive business.

And so we have to recognize that and we gonna have to continue to contribute to that in order to lower these businesses.

Because I will tell you this, but one concern, we can move on from this, I am concerned that while we've set a very good foundation 10 or 15 years ago, that has led us to the situation that we're in now, I'm concerned that North Carolina has been up in their game and we haven't gotten as aggressive, and that we've been a little bit comfortable.

So we've got to really up our game, and get more aggressive to stay competitive because we don't wanna get passed.

- Jody, we have about two minutes.

- Senator, I guess for the first time in our state's history we do not have a lieutenant governor presiding in the Senate and in fact the lieutenant governor, and the governor ran on a ticket this past election.

This far in, how would you gauge that transition, are you pleased with how that has worked out, we'd love some insight from you on where you see it today.

- Yeah, so I think it's working very well.

The only real concern about this going in, was that the lieutenant governor would vote in the case there was a tie.

And so if you've got a tie, the votes gonna fail, because the president of the Senate now, who presides over the body, is a senator.

Senator Harvey Peeler from Gaffney, Senator Peeler does a very good job of making the trains move on time, he keeps things in order.

So I think from that perspective, it's worked very well.

We have had, I think since this happened, since the lieutenant governor was moved out of the Senate, we've had maybe two or three tie votes, and those votes have failed, but otherwise, I really think it's worked well today.

- We have two minutes left Senator, and I wanna bring up the point about long time political icon.

Certainly, you know well, Senator Hugh Leatherman turned 90 recently and also has returned some campaign money for what was going to be probably 2024 campaign finance.

So what does that say?

And what is a South Carolina Senate look like post Hugh Leatherman?

- Well, so Senator Leatherman turn 90 on April 14th, and I'll tell you, I hope that I am in his condition when I'm 90, if I make it that far.

He is sharp, he is active, you know, Chris, Senator Leatherman and I have not always agreed, we've sparred on a number of things but you gotta respect the guy.

And I read the report about him returning campaign contributions.

I don't know that that's accurate, just from what I've heard from some of the people close to him.

I don't know that that's actually happened, but I know he has been engaged this year, he has been, he was sick some earlier, but he's been engaged and he's been a very major influence in the Senate and the State as a whole.

So I don't know that I'm really ready to start talking about what the Senate looks like after him.

'Cause I don't know that that's gonna happen anytime soon.

- And literally, we're almost out of time.

You've been now in political leadership, for a 18 or so years, and would the governor's office, ever have a poll for you, would you run for governor?

- I've been in the leadership position for almost five years now.

I'm interested in ideas, and I'm interested in trying to solve some of the problems that are had around there.

South Carolina is a great place, we've got a lot of tremendous things going for us, but we have challenges instead of...

If I thought there was a way to address those challenges in that position, I'd look at it.

- Okay, and Senator, thank you for taking the time.

Thanks for your leadership, Jody, nice to see you, Chris, nice to see you, until next week, I'm Chris William.

Hope your business and your weekend is good, good night.

- [Narrator] Major funding for Carolina Business Review, provided by High Point University, Martin Marietta, Colonial Life, The Duke endowment, SONOCO, Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina.

And by viewers like you, thank you.

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