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Our collective focus now seems to be coming back to more serious things at hand, like school starts for sure.

The seasonal summer fun vacations are mostly over, and we generally start to focus on those things that we put off at the beginning of summer, knowing we'll have to reengage as we get back to work in the fall, and we are now.

Welcome again, and thank you for supporting the most widely watched dialog on Carolina business policy and public affairs in the Carolinas.

I am Chris William, and in a moment we restart our dialog with our expert panel.

And later on, there is a relatively new boss in education in North Carolina, Maurice “Mo” Greene, North Carolina's superintendent of public instruction.

He'll join us later.

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On this edition of Carolina Business Review John Hood from the John William Pope Foundation, Carl Blackstone of the Greater Columbia Chamber of Commerce, and special guest Maurice “Mo” Greene, North Carolina Superintendent of Public Instruction.

Hello.

Welcome to our program.

Happy fall summer vacations over, John.

Go to the beach at all this summer I did.

I go every summer with the family and I stay inside and the rest of the family loves the beach are so exciting.

Where?

Which beach?

Topsail.

Topsail.

Okay.

All right.

You know, I always like to find out.

Where do you like to go?

I go wherever I can, but I did see the ocean once this the summer.

So that was great.

You did?

Where?

In Florida.

Oh, wow.

You're going to admit that is the economic development guy in South Carolina.

Okay.

All right.

He was he was just doing some and he was doing some investigation.

That's right.

He was checking out some more.

Checking.

Sure, sure.

That's what it was.

So North Carolina, John, for the third time in four years, which is pretty unprecedented.

It's pretty impressive.

Was named by CNBC as the number one state for business again.

And I know they've got a metric.

And you know it's a scientific methodology.

Does does that spell as we as North Carolina celebrates that and the Carolinas you know celebrated together.

Does that spells.

Aye aye aye a time to look at what may be the I don't want to say the darker side but development growth infrastructure all those things start to get more expensive when you've got more bodies coming into the Carolinas.

Is there something we need to be thinking about because of that, of certainly.

I mean, it does reflect growth.

It isn't just, a simple measure of how much economic growth.

I use a lot of different variables and not all the variables.

North Carolina fares as well on there.

Not that they they end up being number one because it's the best average of all these different variables.

But there are certainly problems.

And we all know what they are.

They're exacerbated by rapid growth.

The infrastructure capacity.

We're talking roads.

We're talking energy.

We're talking water and sewer, particularly in some of the rural areas in the eastern part of the state.

Water and sewer is is a big problem.

Actually in the western part of the state, actually both states, sometimes you have lots of water and sewer capacity because there used to be factories that aren't there anymore.

So it depends on what region.

But infrastructure has been a challenge.

Paying for infrastructure is a challenge in both Carolinas, in part because the way we did it before is just not as relevant as automobiles get more fuel efficient trucks and personal vehicles, you're not collecting as much gas tax per mile.

And so adjusting to that, coming up with new sources, figure out what to do on transportation.

It is a challenge in North Carolina, despite our number one ranking or maybe because of it.

Good point.

So the Tar Heel State gets all the accolades when it when it becomes number one for business.

But when you look at the Palmetto State, I would think and this is not scolding, but I would think that it would rank higher than 18th in that survey.

Just what we know and what we watch about the growth and development in South Carolina.

I think it's some of the metrics.

I think we are the fastest growing state, as far as just residential growth, percentage wise, right.

Some of the metrics they've been look at our tort reform issues that went on this year at the General Assembly were to us to impact that.

We won't see those numbers for a couple of years.

Do you think that's a meaningful headwind?

I absolutely do.

I mean, the cost of litigation in South Carolina is so high.

Our tax, the General Assembly is very, much, looking at doing something with the income tax.

That's another variable in those metrics.

So we're adjusting some of those.

We're addressing some of those issues.

But your point I mean it's very expensive to be reactionary to growth and meaning.

We are spending a lot of money on infrastructure, roads, bridges.

Some of those things just take decades to build out.

And, so we're we're I think we're probably underperforming a little bit in that, in that, ranking.

But I think some of the issues that the General Assembly is addressing this year and will address next year will help us get that to a better number.

Let's let's check in on housing just for a second.

So here we are closing in on third quarter.

Closing in on third quarter of the year.

I had to think about that for a second.

Housing seems to be shifting now to a buyer's market, but prices haven't come down.

How does that square?

It will eventually adjust.

I mean, none of these things or none of these market adjustments are instantaneous.

But look, the the housing problem in both Carolina is, is inadequate housing stock.

We sometimes talk about affordable housing.

And that's of course, we want housing to be affordable, a better term now that it's used as workforce housing, looking at people who need housing in order to take the jobs that we're creating in order to move up from a starter home to as their family is growing, and building housing at any level helps with that.

Actually, even if you add upper income or pricey housing options, the reason you're doing that is people are moving into those houses.

They're freeing up of their inventory that's older for other people to buy.

So at every level of the housing market, we need to unleash the opportunity for builders and developers to chase that market and develop new inventory.

We need to make it easier to put more lots per acre in some places where that's not currently permissible.

And we need we just need to open these markets up.

Because these number one ranking is these fast growing thing.

They are fleeting.

And if we don't have anywhere for people to live, if they can afford, we can't create the jobs.

We can be way to put growth, go to way to put it, they are fleeting.

How would you would you describe the housing market South Carolina the same way.

It's tough right now.

And tough meaning tight.

It's tight.

We we lack inventory.

Charleston.

Greenville built quite a bit 2020 ten and 2020.

The Midlands did not.

So we are underperforming.

We didn't build a bunch of housing.

So the growth in the Midlands is struggling right now just to we don't have enough units available.

That's whether it's residential, whether it's multifamily.

We need it.

Charleston, Greenville still growing so fast as well.

Inventory is low.

Prices are high.

So it's a tough time right now to, but we need more inventory in about 30s for both of your jobs.

Someone on this program said.

How would you.

I asked him, how do you describe job market?

You said low hire, low fire.

Not a lot of turnover, tight jobs, jobs not growing.

That much, but still growing.

Risk aversion is a lot of the story.

There is so much uncertainty.

My employers have tariffs and other and other factors.

There's so much uncertainty.

People are not willing to make the job to build new plants or even to hire new people, but they're not necessarily we don't want to let people go either.

They that there is a low risk tolerance right now, which I think, various state and national policies could help.

But that's where we are right now is that have a long tail on it.

We're we'll see how the economy goes in next couple quarters as rates go down.

Maybe see some growth.

Our, our job market right now.

Hospitality retail big part of our state.

Yeah.

Plenty of jobs available.

Hiring jobs is tough.

And, so I think it's per industry but but the lower end jobs, there's plenty out there.

It's, it's tough to if you're brand new college graduate.

I'm sorry.

We heard that.

Which is a little bit ironic.

Gentlemen.

Thank you.

We're going to bring our guest on just a moment before we do that, coming up on this program, these both of these gentlemen are returning.

Our first returnee is the president of the Richmond Federal Reserve, which is the ninth district of U.S. central Bank.

His name is Tom Barkin, President Park and always has a different take than most of his counterparts on the Federal Open Market Committee.

Tom Barkin will be our guest on this program.

And also, Doctor Andrew Shue is the, well thought of leader now down at the College of Charleston.

He will be our guest also on this program.

Leaders in the Tar Heel State are pretty quick to say what we talked about earlier in this dialog.

And that is out of the last three, three out of the last four years, North Carolina has been named by CNBC as a number one state for business.

That certainly is a meaningful accolade.

But how does education factor into that?

It does.

And it's got to be important.

And what is important to know about the DNA in the core of publication, in the core of education in North Carolina, probably a pretty good person to weigh in on.

That is our guest now who has been in leadership both locally, regionally and now he is the elected guy in North Carolina.

He is the superintendent of Public instruction for North Carolina.

We welcome the Honorable Mo Green.

Mister superintendent, welcome to the program.

Thank you.

Good to be here.

Mr.

Superintendent, you heard the dialog about North Carolina and a wonderful accolade.

North Carolina has an education system.

How does it factor into that and what do you is there a different dialog that we need to be thinking about with education in business and economic development?

So what I like to say to folks, is that public education actually has the workforce of tomorrow sitting in our classrooms today.

Let's break that down just a little bit.

So about 84% of the students who are eligible to be attending school or school aged are in our public schools.

When you think about 1.5 million students across the state of North Carolina, you're talking about a massive number of students that, will be the workforce for tomorrow.

Certainly, there's some folks that come into the state, but, I think most of what we need to be focused on is what are we doing to be sure that the folks that we already have are getting the education necessary for them to be effective workers in our state?

One of the things that we need to think about when we think about that ranking, because the the one year in North Carolina was not at the top, it was actually Virginia.

And one of the things that that report actually said was that Virginia had done some significant investments, in education, that really sort of elevated them.

Right.

And so we need to look and see what's happening then in, in our state.

And you will find any number of different reports I'll lift up, for example, the Education Law Center making the grade that puts North Carolina's funding, and that's both federal, state local funding at 48th in the entire country.

Right.

And the effort that our state puts into, education, public education, is 49th in the latest reports that are out.

So one of the things that we need to be thinking about, if we're going to maintain that wonderful ranking, if we're going to have the kind of, workforce with our students that we we absolutely believe that, we are capable of having with them, we've got to be sure that we're appropriately supporting them, through their educational journeys.

Now, it's not all about money.

I don't want to ever suggest that that's the only thing.

There are things that we need to be doing within our system, to also address these issues.

You know, certainly thinking about, you know, what we do with be sure and sure that we've got the kind of, things in place that really, excite our students that are actually relevant to what they might be doing tomorrow.

That we've got the kind of caliber of educators, necessary to to give them the skills and knowledge, necessary for them to be prepared for tomorrow as well.

John Mo at Duke University, where I teach.

And I know is a love of yours, but it campuses at schools across the Carolinas.

We're all talking about artificial intelligence and how it affects teaching and learning.

Do you think we're getting AI right in the schools or are we headed towards getting AI right?

And how are you thinking about this challenge and opportunity?

Yeah, so I see it both as I actually see it as an opportunity.

And then there are challenges that come along with it.

And I do want to lift up my predecessor, Catherine Truitt, in the work that she and her team did, to put out some guidance, related to artificial intelligence.

And I'm told we were one of the first few states in the entire nation to put out some guidance.

And that guidance, I think both recognize the opportunity and some of the challenges.

Some of the ethical questions that must be posed, along with, certainly saying this is the way of the future.

And so we've got to figure out how to embrace that while we deal with those ethical challenges.

I think we're still in the learning phases.

Right.

And so, AI is moving faster than education is currently.

And so one of the things that we are thinking about, at the department is how do you peel off a piece of what we are doing, to focus on what we're calling transformative change, right?

To sort of try to catch up to what I was doing.

And I want to think about this more than just in the classroom, but even in operations, right.

The things that we can be doing differently and better, taking advantage of those opportunities, and at the same time, being sure if you get back to the classroom, you're thinking about, being sure that students understand that in some ways you're harming yourself.

If you allow AI to do too much for you, you need to learn these, skills and gain the knowledge yourself.

It will serve you well in a changing, and a changing world.

You mentioned transformative change at the department level as a state public policy level, is there do you need transformative change to keep recruiting teachers into the workplace now, or you got a diminishing population of kids going through the pipeline now for school?

What is harder, at least in South Carolina, to recruit teachers all across the state, especially in rural areas.

What types of changes need do you see need to happen in order to keep teaching profession going?

Yeah, so I would lift up any number of things.

And maybe this is a good chance for me to actually talk about, the strategic plan.

That was, presented to the state board recently was adopted by, the state Board of Education recently, had a wonderful launch last night.

And, yeah, excited about that.

And in that strategic plan, we have a pillar focused on revering public school educators.

And in it, we lift up a number of things that we think are going to be necessary to recruit and retain educators.

And I think the same is going to be true for South Carolina as it is for North Carolina.

Certainly, folks focus in on compensation.

And, certainly that's something we've got to do.

But one of the things that I heard, I did what we called a listening and learning tour, going around the state before we put in, and developed our strategic plan.

And in that, listening and learning and by the way, we called it Mo wants to know, one of the things that I heard very clearly from educators, as we've got to give them more time, part of what we're doing is constantly loading more and more things on our educators, not recognizing that they already have a full plate.

And so there are some, schools that are doing some interesting things to take away some of those responsibilities, to give them more time.

I think this is another place where I can play a role.

Right.

So that, our educators who are coming in are already more equipped, to deal with, technology can take advantage of some of these opportunities.

We've got to encourage, some of that, as well.

There are many other things that are in that, particular pillar.

But I hopefully that gives you some sense of things that we're we're focused.

Oh, I want to, your Honor.

I want to tease the strategic plan out just for a second.

And it's just not to to it's not to play favorites or kowtow, but I think it's so worthy, noting that when you presented the strategic plan for DPI and yourself to the Board of Education, it was adopted unanimously.

That's a rarity.

So congratulations on that.

Thank you.

But I guess now deploying it in the, you know, is where the rubber meets the road.

One of the pillars is pillar number six lead transformative change.

It's it's fascinating work that you and your team.

But specific to that, when a business has transformative change, they talk about innovation.

So how do you innovate and particularly how do you innovate when you've got compliance of an agency and so much don't I want to call it layers of accountability, but you've got compliance and then you've got to innovate.

And oh yeah, yes sir.

You've got to do this with less money in a budget.

How do you do all that?

Yeah.

So, first of all, thank you so much for recognizing the vote.

That was taken by the state Board of Education.

I am told as well that there it's been many years since there's been a joint, strategic plan between the state board and, and the state superintendent and DPI, and part of what we wanted to do, and what I think we were able to accomplish is to be clear that this is even more than DPI, in the state board, this is North Carolina's plan for public education.

So in fact, we're going to be looking to all of North Carolina, to engage in multiple and varied ways to make this plan successful.

Now, as we focus on, pillar six, transformative change.

Part of the way that we're thinking about it is this, as I mentioned earlier, we're going to have to do some things where we peel off, and say, we have got to have some networks.

And so we'll call on schools and school districts to maybe chair tryouts and things, see what works, and then see if that thing can be brought to scale.

As an example, we'll have, a leadership council that, will include, members of traditional public education and lab schools and charter schools.

Because one of the things that is unfortunately happened, I think, in North Carolina is particularly between charters and traditionals is they've gone their separate ways.

And as I toured the state and as I listen to folks, there are interesting things happening in both areas.

But we're not talking to each other.

One of the areas that I would just lift up as a way to, you know, sort of get to this point of less money is our charter schools are thinking about how to utilize resources, maybe in really interesting and different ways.

And so why can't that learning be transferred to our traditional public schools as well, so that they can think about these things differently as well?

Contract services, combining resources among, various, entities, for example.

And so why can't there be more districts, maybe doing some back office things through a combined fashion like charter schools and charter schools may be able in some ways they were the R&D right to be able to now show our traditional public schools.

Maybe this is a way forward.

So that's how we'll think about it.

It will be a mindset shift in some ways, because you're right.

State agencies, particularly something like the Department of Public Instruction, is often thought of as compliance, compliance, compliance.

We will certainly do that.

But we've got to do more than that.

If we are going to elevate, our public school system, because we have put in our strategic plan that we're going to have the best public education system in the entire country by 2030.

We won't get there simply by doing compliance, compliance, compliance.

Do you get any?

There's a quick follow up, sir.

Do you get any heat from the traditional educators because you are embracing when you when you talk about the charter schools, people hear code and they say, well, that school choice that's taking money away from public schools, do you do you take heat for that?

Yeah.

So certainly there are going to be some folks who have their own view of the world.

Right?

And for some, their view of the world is anything other than traditional public schools are taking money away and diminishing and all that.

And certainly one can understand that argument.

I don't dismiss it at all.

But when charter schools first started in North Carolina, I actually was one of those that thought, this could be a really interesting endeavor.

I liked having the cap.

I always tell folks I like having 100 school cap, so that there would be a level of accountability built there.

I would have done a graduated lifting of the captain as opposed to the complete removal that occurred in North Carolina.

As you have more students of you have more resources as you get better results, then you gradually lift a cap.

So I get some concerns, but I respond back that when I look at the charter school legislation, there are a number of things that were in it, one of which was this is an opportunity to innovate.

And so in the same way that I talked about transformative change, charter schools and should be filling that space.

So what are we doing to innovate?

And then how can those innovations inform what happens in our traditional public schools?

We literally have about a minute left.

You have a quick question.

Well, one of those goals in your strategic plan is to increase North Carolina's performance on national education of National Assessment of Educational Progress.

We were very high and risk adjusted scores as recently as 2019, but we had a pretty big tumble during Covid.

Do you think it was a mistake to keep our schools closed so long during the pandemic?

In 30s?

So, you know, hindsight is always going to be 2020 on these sorts of things.

And so one can look at test score results and go, well, we should have done x, y and Z. I think we have to look at it as it happened in the moment and, challenging decisions had to be made, right?

You're dealing with folks who are losing lives, right?

And we wanted to preserve lives in North Carolina.

And so I think good decisions were made.

One, as I say, you can look back and go, oh my gosh, we could have made a different decision.

I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Please come back.

No, we didn't we didn't talk about security in schools.

We didn't talk about cell phones.

We didn't talk about a lot of things, but.

But I hope you on your one of these trips back, you'll you'll come back.

I'll be happy to thank you.

Good to see you Carl.

Thanks, John.

Until next week, I'm Chris William, Goodnight.

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