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♪ (Making it Grow opening music) ♪ Good evening and welcome to Making It Grow.

We sure are glad you could join us tonight.

I'm Amanda McNulty.

I'm a horticultural agent with Clemson, and our show is a collaboration between SCETV and Clemson University, and we have a really great group of people here tonight to help answer your questions.

It's going to be fun and educational at the same time.

That's a nice mix, isn't it?

We're going to start off with speaking with Terasa Lott.

Terasa is remarkable.

She's kept the master gardeners going through times when they couldn't get together and I think they're now able to meet again under certain circumstances, and she's done a wonderful job, and then she also helps us out, collecting questions from people and also letting us start off with something that's very happy and that is Gardens of The Week.

>> Terasa, thank you, Amanda.

You give me too much credit.

I certainly don't do all of those things all by myself, but have a fantastic team that does a lot of the work behind the scenes, but let's take a look at your yards and gardens from across the state, beginning with Marion Neely who shared a front yard raised beds, we usually see these in the back, but he tells me they collaborated with a neighbor and the bed contains both flowers and veggies.

Roseann Gohagan shared her hanging baskets and right in the middle is a birdhouse gourd.

Gloriosa lilies are the subject of Annette Brown Mishoe and from Cristen Flanagan Hampton, her second brood of bluebird nestlings just makes you want to go awe.

And then we're going to finish up with Tom and Beth Eubanks in this photo you see a bee covered in pollen, as it departs a hibiscus flower.

It is so much fun seeing all the photographs submitted for Gardens of the Week.

You can see more on our Facebook page and you're welcome to submit yours as well.

If you do email it to me, please be sure to spell my name with an A, otherwise it will go to someone in a totally different department at Clemson, just a word of caution.

>> Well Terasa, on that note, because you do compile questions from people for us to answer, what are some of the ways that people can get questions to you?

>> Well, we receive questions in just about every form or fashion you can imagine.

So sometimes, it'll come in post on the Facebook page.

It might come as a question through messenger through Facebook.

People sometimes email me or email other agents.

They call our local extension offices.

Sometimes some of us get text, as well.

So, if it gets to us, you could even write to an extension office if you wanted.

And we'll do our best to get your question answered.

First up, we have a question from Patricia in Laurens, who shared some photographs with a comment.

She said, "In case you're interested, I've included photos of this tiny caterpillar showing its amazing use of camouflage.

At least I think it's amazing!"

>> Well, Terasa fortunately Vicky Bertagnolli is with us tonight, and she is a horticulture agent in Aiken, but her true passion is critters.

I think so.

Vicky help us out with this one.

>> Yeah, I was really excited whenever Patricia sent this to me.

Pat tends to send me really neat pictures and this is kind of a treat for me to see.

This is the caterpillar of the Southern Emerald Moth, and it feeds on a whole bunch of different things, sunflower, bidens, rudbeckia, things like that, a lot of composites, and whenever you're looking at the caterpillar itself it's like this mottled brown and black with some white stripes on it, but it's a twig mimic, but what's really cool about it, is like in the picture that Pat sent us is that this particular caterpillar employs something called decorative crispus.

<Amanda> Say that - Wait a minute.

Say that again, for me, slowly.

<Vicky> Decorative crispus.

<Amanda> All right.

<Vicky> So, it is using parts of the plant and putting them on itself attaching it to its dorsal surface, so that it's more camouflaged while it's feeding on the plant, and it'll take pieces of petal.

Sometimes it'll take pieces of the leaves.

Maybe it'll take a little bit of pollen.

It'll take a seed sheath and it'll stick it all over and so you're looking at this flower, you're admiring this flower and then you're seeing parts of the flower move.

and you're like, "What is that?"

And you look closer and it's a very small, little caterpillar doing its thing, but hiding out in plain sight.

>> Well, that's one of the most fascinating strategies for not getting eaten that I have ever, ever heard of.

[laughing] That really is a huge amount of fun.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing that with us.

That was just great.

Terasa, it's going to be hard to beat that, but we're going to come back to you for another question.

>> I'm wondering, maybe I can employ that strategy as a Halloween costume when we get to Halloween time this year.

Good idea.

This question comes in from Lois in Greenville.

Lois says my Bermuda lawn has some dead spots in it.

Can I just use sand, or is there something else I can use to fix the bare spots?

<Amanda> Well, Drew Jeffers is up there in Spartanburg, and he's our horticulture agent.

We're so happy to have you with us tonight, Drew.

Lawns, lawns, lawns.

It's unusual to hear about one that's just doing perfectly, and this one sure has some problems.

What would you recommend?

>> So, yeah.

Bare spots are always fun for every yard.

Typically, what a lot of a lot of folks hear, is they say, well, I'll just use sand.

Well, in the Upstate especially, when you put sand on top of clay, you're creating a what you call perched water table.

What happens is the water penetrates down through the sands of the clay layer and it sits there.

You can essentially have an entire - mostly create a mini swamp.

So, what I would do Lois is I would use like either just plain compost or you can use manure.

And I'll tell you in my yard what Bermuda grass grows best in is mulch.

So everywhere I put mulch down I seem to have Bermuda grass.

So, you could do a light layer of mulch, basically any type of organic matter.

So, you can use chicken manure.

You could use cow manure, any kind of compost, and if you wanted to mix it with a little bit of sand to cut it a little bit to make it stretch a little further, you could do that, because and what I would then do, is dig up that spot up a little bit and then just kind of lightly cover it.

That should give enough nutrient value to the little area to fill it in.

Now if you only got one or two dead spots, you can probably find one of these little places here around the upstate that will sell you just a piece of sod, and you can cut it up in little pieces, but typically it's better to use a combination of organic matter and native soil is typically what we like to recommend.

>> So would you take like a little tine of fork or some kind and try to work it in just until like the first inch or two of the soil underneath that bare spot?

Or would you just put it on top of it?

>> I typically put it on top.

You can work it in, definitely, but I typically just put it on top and just let the runners put it right to the soil and just go right on top of that.

because if you got problems with leveling, if it's above the grade of your lawn, then yes, you can dig down a little bit.

But what I do for my lawn is I just fill lightly.

And we're not talking like a thick layer, just barely coating, just enough to cover the bare spot.

<Amanda> Okay, all right.

>> - like Brylcreem, a little dab will do ya.. >> Terasa, what's come up to the top of the pile now?

Not another question?

>> Well, this question happens to be a snake question.

It comes in from Grady in Westminster.

Grady says, "I found a snake, "near my house that I think is a copperhead, "but I'm not sure, "Could you tell me what it is?

"” And of course, he sent a picture along his request.

>> Okay, well I hope that he sent a picture taken from far away, and not of a dead snake, because it's often times, it always distresses me when people will bring the dead snake to an office to be identified, when so many snakes are completely harmless.

Mallory Daily, you're the 4-H agent in Oconee County, but I know you really do enjoy wildlife.

How can you help this person out and what kind of snake was it?

>> Yeah so, that picture is actually a picture of a corn snake, and corn snakes are often one of those species that fall victim to mistaken identity.

It's because of the coloration and kind of the pattern on their backs that many people think that they're copperheads, but indeed, this is actually a corn snake.

Completely harmless.

Corn snakes, if you notice that long, narrow body.

Copperheads have more of that stocky, short stocky body, and then the pattern on its back, if you look at it, it actually has little splotches, kind of more like square shaped, where a copperhead would more have an hourglass shape, but yeah, this is actually a corn snake, and they come in a variety of different colors.

It's probably in my personal opinion, probably one of the prettiest snakes that we have in our state.

This one in the Upstate, they tend to be a little bit more darker, but when you get more down to the Low country they get this beautiful orange and red color, but another snake that they often times they get a picture of, that many people think is a copperhead are juvenile rat snakes.

Same thing, they kind of have that pattern that looks like it, but this guy's is a corn snake.

>> And, except, I think, for one of the venomous snakes we have, isn't the pupil of the eye, if you can see that safely without getting close, is that also an indicator?

>> Yes, so five out of our six venomous snakes that we have in South Carolina belong in that viper family, and so, they do have that long looks like a cat eye, but I'll say that if you have to figure out if this snake is venomous or not by looking at its eye, you are entirely too close to the snake, and you should not be doing that.

But yes, so, it does basically have a triangle shaped head, and they have that cat eye.

The other venomous snake, the coral snake, they are kind of the exception to the rule in our state.

>> Well, I've talked to a lot of snake people and I only know one or two who have even seen a coral snake.

They must be super secretive and elusive.

>> Yes, they are.

You really don't come across them unless, you got to go searching for them, but yeah, they tend to kind of stick to themselves, and they're not going to be seen that often.

>> Well, I don't mind snakes, because I feel like they do a lot for rodent control.

What are some of the benefits of snakes?

>> There's tons of benefits to snakes.

First of all, rodent control and pest control is the biggest.

They do a wonderful service for our ecosystem, and also they are great seed dispersers.

>> Seed dispersers?

Now, come on.

How are snakes seed dispersers?

>> So, since they do such a great job at controlling our rodent population, the thing about rodents and mice and things like that, they eat a lot of seeds and plant materials.

So, as a snake processes it, it's a very, very cool thing.

>> And so really if you have problems with that, I mean, I guess there's so many things in the rodent family.

We've got house mice and then larger field rats and things like that, and so they, I guess, different snakes of different sizes, go after all sorts of different things, don't they?

>> Yes.

So, usually kind of depending on the size of the snake and what they eat, but yes, so all different types of different rodents.

They'll typically most of our snakes that we have in the state are rodentivores, so they kind of focus primarily on rodents.

>> Okay, now I like snakes.

Because my brother grew up, we had them around the house all the time, but some people are just terrified of snakes, and I understand that.

So if they want to discourage, if they don't want to encourage them to come into their yard, what are some things they can do that might help prevent snakes from staying around their house?

>> Yeah, so the biggest thing that I tell people is reducing snake habitat, and so if you have, for example, a wood pile for firewood, kind of putting that away from your house, putting that somewhere further of a distance, because if you think about a wood pile, it's an attractant for rodent and mice, and so the snakes are going to follow the food source that's there.

The same thing with a brush pile.

They're going to be able to hide from, rodents are going to be able to hide from predators in a brush pile, but snakes can easily get into that, as well.

So reducing that, brush piles, stacks of wood and things like that, and keeping it far away from your house can reduce the likelihood of snakes.

We're never going to tell you, like, there's not a wood pile here, so a snake's not going to be here, but it can, little things like that can help, but I always tell people when you do have to work with a brush pile or a wood pile, just to be careful, be sure - I always say, if you have a shovel or a stick, kind of just shake the pile or shake, if you're doing any yard work, if you're grabbing a piece of wood, just giving that snake the opportunity to flee and get out of there, because they really don't want anything to do with humans.

They would like to kind of get out of there, but just be safe and being cautious where you're placing your hands.

>> And then, if you are going out to get wood in the summertime, the snakes can really - they're more active when it's warm, I guess, because they're cold blooded, is that right?

>> Yeah, so they love, they're cold blooded and they love the opportunity to, especially when you see that kind of sun.

They want to kind of bask in the sun for a little bit, warm themselves for the day and then they'll get going and so often times, you do come across them if you're on a hiking trail or just in your yard, you find them laying on your driveways or laying in like a rock, that's because they're basking and trying to warm up for the day.

>> Okay, now if you, isn't there some kind of statistic about of the people who have been bitten by a snake, that almost all of them were almost always have been messing with a snake.

>> Yes.

It's a crazy stat and it is true.

So, you're more likely to get bit by a snake, when people try to kill the snake, if you think about it, you're putting yourself that much closer to a snake's reach.

So, a lot of times, our snakes, especially if you think about maybe a rattlesnake or copperhead, they can strike from a large distance when it comes their body size.

So, the best thing to do is to leave them alone.

If you have to, I would say move a snake, people have snake hooks or a golf club works great where you're able to just to kind of dangle a little snake on there and move it safely off the road, or safely off your driveway or away from people, but yeah, you're more likely to get bit, when you're actually trying to kill it.

Since we've all been enjoying getting outdoors more, because for a long time during the pandemic that was a safe place for us to go.

What are some tips if you're walking in the woods and doing things like that to lessen your chance of running into a snake?

>> So, thankfully snakes, they most of the time, they move on before you even realize that they're there.

Or other times you walk right by them and you have no idea they're there in the first place, because they have great camouflage, but I would say the biggest thing is just be cautious and be aware of your surroundings, making sure we're watching where you step.

I mean you are in the woods.

You're in their habitat, and so just be cautious.

Watch where you're pay attention.

Watch where you're placing hands.

If for some reason, you want to kind of mess around in the rocks, I would watch where you're placing hands there, because again.

A lot of times those rock are nice and warm.

So, there could be a snake sunning itself.

If you're climbing over a log or something like a downed tree, just be cautious when you're coming off of the other side because the snake might be underneath it.

>> Okay well, I went once on a week-long trip, at a nature camp that Rudy Mancke led down at Saint Helena Island, and we spent the entire week trying to find a snake, and darn if we couldn't find a snake.

So, it just goes to show you, and if anybody can find a snake, it's Rudy Mancke.

So, they really are elusive, and they really do want to stay out of your way.

So, I want to thank you for dispelling some of the things that people worry about, and perhaps making people realize that rodent control and seed dispersal and all that, those are pretty important things and so they have a place in our natural world, just like many other animals do.

Thanks a lot, Mallory.

>> You're welcome.

>> Well, Terasa since you are the repository for all the problems and questions, how about pulling another one out for us.

>> This one is not really so much a question, but Marion Neeley shared some photos of a really interesting insect found in South Carolina, and since Vicky is here, I thought she might want to share some information with our viewers about the mantid species we find in the state.

>> Gosh, well, Vicky I didn't know that there was - I just thought there was plain on praying mantis.

Shed some light on this for us please.

>> So, there's actually two species of praying mantis that we have here in South Carolina, and for a lot of folks, we'll use the word mantid.

Their order used to be Mantodea and they were called praying mantids.

They used to be, then the taxonomists changed it to Mantodea as their family name and we tend to shorten family names and we call them mantids, but there's two species here.

We have the Carolina mantid, and then we have the Chinese mantid, and when you're looking at these things next to each other, the two insects next to each other, the Carolina mantid is a little bit smaller.

she's like a mottled brown, mottled tan and her wings are not particularly long, and she's got a very what we would consider like a broad abdomen.

Then when you look at the Chinese mantid in comparison, the Chinese mantid is considerably larger, can be four inches, whereas the Carolina mantid's somewhere around three inches two or three inches.

The Chinese mantid is going to be all green, and those wings come all the way down over her abdomen, but it's a fairly large mantid, whenever you're looking at the two side by side.

And then we can also tell the difference between the two, just if we find their egg masses and those egg masses are called ootheca.

If it's plural, they're oothecae, but when you're finding one of them, they're going to be stuck to a tree, most often.

Some people find them stuck on the eaves or something like that, but with the Chinese mantid, it looks like somebody came along with some spray foam and it's like a - it's a fluffy foam, but it's hardened.

and then whenever you find the Carolina mantid ootheca it tends to be kind of oval shaped, but it's very, very hard, and both of them, down the middle is typically where you're going to see - It almost looks like a zipper, and whenever there's going to be hundreds of eggs in either of those egg cases, and when the babies, the nymphs are ready to emerge, they're going to chew their way through that foamy material, and come out and you'll have these tiny itty bitty babies that'll fit like on your finger tips.

They're so, so cute, and they're going to be - if you keep them like in a container, you have to be careful, because they'll eat each other, and it's going to be survival of the fittest, but if they're out in a landscape, they're going to disperse pretty quickly, because they don't want to - They don't want to eaten by their sibling.

>> Vicky, let me ask you.

These are beneficial insects and I mean like with lady bug it's the larvae that do most of the eating, I think, have the biggest appetite.

What insects do the praying mantis typically go after?

And is it worth ordering and releasing them in your yard?

>> Praying mantis around here are going to be eating caterpillars.

They'll be eating flies.

They'll be eating - They'll eat bees.

They'll eat wasps because they have an incredible - So, they have these raptorial front legs and lightening quick reflexes and extremely good eyesight.

So, they're going to be hiding out in the foliage, and they're stalking their prey and whenever they see it within striking distance of those arms, They'll reach out and grab them and then they're going to eat them.

In our heads, purchasing biological control seems like a really good idea, but it all kind of depends.

You have to have enough prey items in your landscape, in order for them to stay there, but they're very disrespectful of like your fence lines and your property lines, and they don't know that they're supposed to stay in their own yard, and so purchasing them isn't always going to work.

It works better if you're working on a small scale, maybe in a greenhouse or something like that.

You certainly can purchase them, and whenever you do you purchase praying mantids, typically they're going to ship Chinese mantids to you.

>> So, really if you use pesticides lightly, only when absolutely necessary, you're going to have some of the animals - some of the insects that beneficial insects want, and that will encourage them to stay with you, rather than just bringing them in, and they say will shoot there's nothing here for me to eat, and so best to, set a good table for them than to send them an invitation, I guess.

>> Exactly, it's one of those things where you ask any extension agent and they're going to tell you that eradication is not always feasible, but it's also not always a good idea if you're trying to sustain biological control agents like praying mantis, like lady beetles, like Florida predatory stink bug, because if you don't have the prey, they're not going to stay in that landscape.

So, you have to make sure that they have enough prey items in order to sustain a predator population.

>> And that just reminds us that we're not looking for perfection, that we always, there has to be a certain level of damage that we accept, and that's really healthier in the long run, than trying to just have everything be perfect, perfect, perfect.

Thank you.

Thank you for telling us about that.

That was really exciting to learn about.

Appreciate it.

Terasa, a new thing that you've started putting in for us and you do so many things for us.

More work for poor Terasa, is people now sometimes send several pictures of their yard, and so we have kind of a spotlighted yard of the week.

Have we got one of those, this time?

>> We do, only this work is not extra work for me.

We're going to revisit a yard that was previously aired.

This is the gorgeous and serene garden of Dr. Grady Locklear.

♪ (harmonious music) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (harmonious music concludes) ♪ Dr Grady Locklear really does have one of the loveliest gardens that you'll ever, ever see, and it's, no matter what time of year it is, it's always perfectly beautiful, and we so appreciate his letting us come and enjoy the hard work and the beautiful results that it is.

My friend Ann Nolte has a nice collection of hydrangeas and she was sweet enough to let me go out there this morning, and get some for a hat.

So, Ann, as usual, thank you for being the wonderful gardener that you are and being such a good friend to me.

Well, Terasa, I know we've got more questions, and so let's see if we can come up with one that might be good for Drew.

>> From Cameron in Boiling Springs, Cameron would like to know, he has mushrooms growing on a few of the trees in his property.

He wants to know, "Does that mean they are sick?

<Amanda> Oh my goodness.

Well, Drew, this is something I see a lot when I walk, because in St. Matthews about a hundred or so years ago, they planted just water oaks and I think they're kind of short lived and a lot of them have succumbed and they often have mushrooms at the bottom.

Is this generally a bad sign for the future of a tree?

>> So, typically, when we see mushrooms growing on the outside of a tree or a tree branch, that is usually, usually, not always, usually indicative of some kind of internal rot.

So, it means the heartwood is probably dying.

It's probably dead and decaying and the mushrooms are actually feeding on that.

So, what I would recommend to whoever's got this problem, is calling an arborist an ISA certified arborist.

ISA stands for International Society of Arboriculture.

They're - and you can find them by going to just Google or through a search engine, trees are good.

Find an arborist.

Just type that and hit enter.

That will bring up the ISA website, where you can put in your zip code, and it'll pull up a list of certified arborists that are in your area.

What they're going to be able to do is they have a variety of techniques they can use the tap method to figure out how dead the interior is.

They even have ultrasound technology now, where they can look and see kind of how much dead wood is in there, and they're going to be able to assess that tree a lot better than the most of your average folks, including myself, and a lot of times what you want to look for when you look for those ISA certifications are risk management or hazard risks.

That means they've gone through a little extra training and they are trained to look for trees that could be potential hazards so if it's next to your house or if it's next to something that you want to keep like a building or a fence or something like that, that way you can kind of make that determination.

It's always good and when you call us folks what I would say is just I want to come get my tree assessed, and just do the site assessment, and then the arborist will come out, do a full work up and they'll basically almost like a doctor's report, and they'll tell you the health of the tree, what they recommend, and then you just go from there.

Pick which ones you want to do.

>> Okay, and Drew, if people have a real big yard, my yard's two and a half acres, and a lot more that I can take care of, but there's a lot of it that's just kind of the back 40, so to speak, and so if I have a tree out there that dies, I usually just kind of leave them, because there is some habitat that dead trees provide, if I'm not mistaken.

Is that true if it's in a place where it's not going to hurt anything, when it falls?

>> Correct.

I always tell folks.

Look!

If it's out away from your house, you can just let it do what it's going to, and it's not going to hurt anything if it falls, it's not going to fall on your neighbor's yard or property.

I'd let it go, because it's going to provide some habitat.

Eventually, as it rots and decays it's going to actually feed your soil.

So, that's good, and then of course, but if it's next to the house or it's going to potentially damage property, that's when you want to have it looked at.

>> Okay.

Well, thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

That was mighty good advice.

Terasa, let's see what else is coming close to the surface of your list of questions.

>> AnnMarie sent a rather distressed message.

She said, "I need help - again."

"Here are pictures of what we found "on a tomato plant.

What are they and what do I do?

>> You know, it just doesn't seem fair.

It's so hard to grow tomatoes in South Carolina.

Then there's some kind of pest that always seems to be getting on them.

Vicky, is there any help for AnnMarie and her tomato plant?

>> Poor AnnMarie.

She's been working so hard.

This is - She and I have been talking quite a bit, and this is maybe the second or third year that she had a garden, and she's still learning all her pests and she sent this mayday to me.

She's like what is this?

And whenever I looked at it, it took me a minute to figure out what these caterpillars were.

They were just decimating her tomatoes, but what they are is they're southern army worm and southern army worm feeds on a whole host of vegetables, fruit, field and ornamental crops.

So, they're eating beets.

They're eating cabbage.

They're eating carrot, collards, eggplant, okra, potato.

I mean it's all sorts of stuff and whenever they're young, they feed gregariously, which means they feed in a group.

So, the damage is even more extensive than whenever it's a single caterpillar.

As they get older, they tend to move out.

They intend to go out on their own, and have their own parts of the plant that they're feeding on, and they're fairly easy to identify whenever you're looking at them, they got stripes on them.

They've got an orange head capsule and then on their first abdominal segment, they've got some blackspots.

Then, they've also got some stripes along the sides, so, it's a rather distinctive caterpillar, but it turns into a small black -no- a small brown, tan moth.

Nothing super distinctive about the moth in particular.

Lots and lots of natural enemies, lots of your parasitic wasps out there.

Florida stink bug is also a predator out there, but one of the - when you're kind of worried about how am I going to control this thing and you're worried about your pollinators out there, and what do I apply?

A lot of times we recommend bacillus thuringiensis for a lot of our caterpillars, but this southern army worm actually responds very well to a fungus called Beauveria bassiana, and that could be sprayed onto the plants.

It affects just the caterpillars, so that it's leaving the beneficial insects and only targeting those pestiferous caterpillars.

>> Can you pick them off by hand?

>> So, if you want to go 100% organic and I'm talking no chemicals, 100% organic I always recommend hand picking.

It's one of those things where if you're tending to your garden like you should, and enjoying it like you should, you should take the time to be out there every day.

Look at those plants.

Look at the places where they're going to hide.

These caterpillars are going to feed on the underside of the leaves, so don't just look at the top of the leaves, because that's where all the sun beats down.

That's where - all the out in the open.

That's where all the predators are.

So, your pest insects you need to look for them.

I tell people you need to think like a pest, and you have to turn the leaves over, because they're going to be hiding underneath the leaves.

They're going to be hiding in the leaf nodes, wherever they're not out in the open and exposed to the elements and exposed to the predators.

>> So, and these it won't hurt you to pick them by hand and just drop them in soapy water?

>> Yep, you can hand pick them.

You can squish them.

Throw them on the ground.

Step on them.

You can drop them in a bucket of soapy water.

Yeah.

<Amanda> Okay, thanks so much.

The Audubon Society is across the world, but it also has a really incredible place right here in South Carolina, and that is the Beidler Forest.

♪ (bluegrass music) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (bluegrass music concludes) ♪ >> This is a gloriously, beautiful South Carolina day, and I'm speaking with Matt Johnson, who is the Director of the Beidler Forest Audubon Center.

Matt, thank you for letting us come, and we're it seems like we're in the middle of just - the garden of Eden, but actually we're between Columbia and Charleston, right off I-26, and there are signs that tell us how to get here.

>> That's right.

Right off I-26 whether you're coming from Charleston or from Columbia, you can find us.

We're a little off the beaten path, which we like, but what a beautiful place, what a beautiful day.

We're in the spring, which is my favorite time of the year.

And welcome, to the Beidler Forest Audubon Center.

It's 18 thousand acres of land here in the Four Hole Swamp, watershed.

It takes up parts of Dorchester.

Berkeley and Orangeburg counties.

<Amanda> How did it start?

When did y'all acquire the original property?

<Matt> Sure, so in the 1960s, this property was originally protected, and it was only about 35 hundred acres at the time.

Never been logged.

Really, never been significantly impacted by people and the Audubon Society and the Nature Conservancy got together, protected it and purchased it from the Beidler family, who owned a lot of land in this area, but had not logged or really done anything with this little part of Four Hole Swamp.

So, it was protected in the 1960s sixties.

We opened it up to the public for the first time in the mid-1970s and we're still open today, and we've turned that 3,500 acres into over 18 thousand acres of protected land today.

<Amanda> Explain to me what a swamp is, and what the impact of this is.

How much drainage comes into it?

<Matt> Good question.

So, swamps, really at the basic level are flooded forests.

You combine trees.

You combine water.

This particular swamp Four Hole Swamp is fed entirely by rainfall.

It starts up near St. Matthews, an area that you know, and it runs for about 60 miles down into, eventually into the Edisto River, near the town of Ridgeville, and being fed entirely by rainfall, you have a really vast area that nearly floods down to a sort of a more narrow area.

So, a couple hundred thousand acres of land that drains down to about 30 or 40 thousand acres that makes up the flow of the swamp.

>> And so why is that so important that we have all these trees, and obstacles I guess I'd say to the flow of water, and what impact does that have on cleanliness and creating habitat?

>> Right.

Great question, and we think about the habitat that swamps provide.

We think about habitat for wildlife, right.

And certainly, this is a sanctuary for birds, and us being Audubon, we always care about the birds and other wildlife as well, but swamps and other wetlands serve some really important functions also.

One of them is they make the water cleaner.

So, when water flows through swamps, it's cleaner when it leaves than when it comes in.

Swamps naturally filter and purify water.

So, the more wetlands we have, the cleaner our water is, especially if that water is the source of our drinking water, and in a lot of cases, it is.

So, because it's soil here the impurities can filter down into the ground, and that incredible biome, I mean, the organisms that are under the ground are just so remarkable at degrading any impurities and turning them into usable nutrients.

>> That's exactly right, and when I talk to people here at Beidler and I say you look out you see an ecosystem, but under the water and under the ground, there's a whole other ecosystem that we really can't see, that's this doing really important work for us, filtering water.

You talked about the slow moving water.

I mean all these extreme weather events that we've had in recent years in South Carolina, swamps in the wetlands doing a really important role during that.

<Amanda> We're surrounded by trees, and we had a meeting tree that we saw, that you said was probably well over a thousand years old, and as we look around, I see a little, tiny young cypress tree.

So, we're not going to see all gigantic trees because there have been natural occurrences, such as hurricanes.

<Matt> That's exactly right.

So, when we think about, there hasn't been any logging here.

It doesn't mean that no trees have fell.

So, one of the hallmarks of an old grove swamp, is yes you do get some old trees, but usually you have things at every stage of life and death.

Lots of standing trees, but also lots of dead trees, and so, our sort of mission here at Beidler is completely hands off.

We let the swamp be as natural as it is, and so if a hurricane comes and it knocks a tree down, we leave it on the ground.

If a lightning strikes a tree and causes it to catch fire, we leave it standing.

The only time we cut a tree is if it falls across the boardwalk, and then we leave everything on the ground in the swamp.

So, it's a very natural ecosystem, because as you know Amanda, a fallen tree is still very valuable to the wildlife.

<Amanda> Absolutely, yeah, but we also have the factor of carbon storage, not only with what we see here, but I know I've been doing some work in my yard, and trying to plant some things, and Oh my Lord!

The root systems of things are just incredible.

>> That's exactly right, especially when you think about native plants, native trees, native grasses.

They store incredible amounts of carbon.

So, when we think about a changing climate, the more carbon we can store, the better.

So, a very important role that Beidler and other forests and wetlands are playing is storing carbon, not just above ground, but to your point, a lot of that carbon storage is just below the surface of the ground.

>> Because it had never been logged, this was a kind of unknown unused area, and y'all have been doing history and getting designations and accolades for things here, and one of the most recent interesting things, I think, as you found out that this was a place that had a role in the Underground Railroad System when enslaved people were trying to get to places where they would be able to live as freed people.

>> That's exactly right.

So, by the way, we're very proud to be a Ramsar Wetland of international importance.

This is a national, natural landmark.

It's a globally important bird area.

<Amanda> Globally important, <Matt> Yes, but also, and I think perhaps, we're most proud of our most recent designation as that Beidler was named as a site on the National Park Service's Underground Railroad Network to Freedom Program, and you're exactly right.

We have evidence now that freedom seekers that were referred to as Maroons lived in and travelled through swamps, including Four Hole Swamp as they were trying to become free, and they would - Some may have stayed here for short periods of time.

Others built encampments and lived in the swamp.

So, it was truly a sanctuary as people tried to get away from that very horrible thing that was happening.

<Amanda> And of course there was no boardwalk, so highly unlikely that people were going to be passing through here.

When you were in here, you were very unlikely to run into anybody else and anybody looking for you was very unlikely to come into this, because as you said, this is where we're at right now, is one of the lowest of water levels that you've see during the year.

>> Sure right, very dry and what's amazing about coming here and walking on our boardwalks.

We have an almost two mile boardwalk that goes out to the old grove parts of the swamp is that you can visualize what it would've looked like 200 years ago, 500 years ago, and it's changed some, but not a lot to people that might have used a swamp, whether they be the ruins, whether they be Native Americans and you can touch trees like the Meeting Tree that have been alive for a thousand years, and you might think that people that were here in the past put their hands against that very same tree and it's still alive and still here today.

<Amanda> One of the cool things about cypress trees of course, is in wet areas, they put up those knees and you say that, because of that, we can talk about this unusual bird that sometimes takes advantage of those.

>> That's exactly right.

We have this really unique species here, and at this time of the year.

Here we are in early April people are coming out here to see it.

It's called the prothonotary warbler.

It's a tricky name and I guess maybe the better pronunciation would be (pro-tha-notary) and a prothonotary was a clerk in the Roman Catholic Church that wore these bright yellow flowing robes, and so it was reminiscent of the appearance of this bird, which is bright yellow, but the other nick name for it is the Swamp Canary.

And I think it's a good nickname, not only because the bird's bright yellow like a canary, but like the canary of the coal mine, these birds are a great indicator of the health of a wetland ecosystem.

We tend to see them growing or living in areas where there's standing water.

So, they're susceptible to changes in hydrology, changes in the flow of the water.

They also eat things like, we were looking at a mayfly earlier.

Mayflies come up out of the water as part of their life and they are also tied to water quality.

So, in areas where the water is not very clean, sometimes you don't have quite as many mayflies and that can impact the food web as it applies to this very special bird of ours.

<Amanda> Because birds almost all birds like to feed their young insects, because they need that protein because they have to get up and learn how to fly and mature very quickly and this bird really speeds up that process.

>> Speeds it up very quickly.

So, we see them nesting in the cypress knees, and here the cypress knees are so big and old that they start to hollow out, and then these warblers, which is interesting, because it's the only warbler in the eastern United States that nests in cavities.

All the other warblers built an open nest, only the prothonotary will nest inside of a structure So, you can actually put - if you took your bluebird box, Amanda and you put out into a swamp - >> Guess what I get - >> - a warbler box, but here they nest in the cypress knees and it is amazing.

We see them nesting.

>> But they do create a nest.

>> They do make a nest, they're just inside of the structure.

Good point.

and what's amazing is they do everything very quickly.

So, from when they start to lay eggs in the nest until when those young are big enough to leave the nest, is only three weeks.

<Amanda> Gosh that's fast.

>> So fast.

And actually, from when the eggs hatch to when they can leave the nest is 10 days.

<Amanda> In the way that we think about the monarch butterflies and at first, we just thought plant milkweed, plant milkweed, plant milkweed, then we realized well, if we can do that, but if they don't have the other end of their migratory route is not safe.

We got to start looking at what's happening there and so y'all didn't know quite what the prothonotaries were doing, when they left, and I think you've done some fascinating work to figure out what is going on.

So, tell us about that.

>> Sure, I've been lucky enough to be working with the species for the time that I work for Audubon, and yeah, they arrive in about the beginning of April.

They nest here at Beidler.

We think we've done a pretty good job of protecting habitat for them, while they're here, and then they leave in late July and August.

But where do they go?

And we think at a global or at a global scale their populations are declining.

So, the question was why, and when we think about bird conservation, especially for these birds that migrate.

To your point, we can't just protect one piece of their habitat.

We got piece together the whole journey, but first we have to understand what that journey is.

So, we have been for the last couple of years, studying the birds here at Beidler as part of a project being done across their range.

So, working with partners in Virginia and Ohio and Louisiana and Arkansas and all over.

So, we attached these little or tracking devices to these birds, to actually, study their migration, and so we did that - <Amanda> Like a little backpack.

<Matt> Like a little backpack.

It goes on their back.

It's not a GPS unit, so the catch is, we put it on the bird in one year, the bird flies off.

It goes on this journey.

It comes back, hopefully.

What's amazing about prothonotaries is they will come back to the same spot year after year after year, and then we can catch them again, and remove this device and then hopefully get the data that tells us where they went.

So, they're migrating at night and they're migrating across the Gulf of Mexico, across the Caribbean, down through Central America, into like Columbia, South America.

That's a one-way trip of about 2,500 miles.

<Amanda> And then coming back.

>> And then coming back.

So five thousand miles.

These bird weigh about 15 grams, which if you could imagine like two quarters in your hand.

The little devices that we've been putting on them are like half of a gram, and through this little device, we've been able to learn quite a bit about where they go and how they're getting there.

And so now we're working with partners in places like Colombia, South America to talk about habitat protection to understand what the protonotary workers are doing down there.

So that really, we can hopefully protect their full life cycle, the breeding grounds, the wintering grounds and everything in between.

<Amanda> And everything in between, because they've got to stop and eat and rest, and do all that.

If you drive 2,500 miles, you can't do that in a day.

It's not an airplane trip for them.

<Matt> It still never ceases to amaze me how these little, tiny birds can travel five thousand miles, and not just come back to Beidler, but some of them come back to the exact same cavity from one year to the next.

<Amanda> Goodness.

Site loyalty.

>> Site loyalty or site fidelity.

>> Fidelity <Matt> And we see that with salmon and fish and all sorts of different organisms do that, and these birds do it too.

<Amanda> Yeah.

Something we haven't talked about is just the joy for human beings to come here, and have this experience.

I mean, my anxiety level is dramatically lower than it was earlier, and I know that y'all have had limited visitation during the pandemic, but even during normal times, when you can have a lot of people here, it's such a large area, and there's so much to do that there is, anybody can get a sense of tranquility and peace and calm, and come and have this experience that just isn't there in many other places.

>> That's exactly right.

One of the things I love about Beidler, it's a great way to experience all the senses, like we're listening to birds in the background, and take deep breaths out here and just a nice fresh scent, because of course these trees are also an oxygen factory here in the swamp.

>> As you were walking around we saw all kinds of snakes.

We saw all kinds of insects.

We saw crawdads.

>> Such a great way - >> Caterpillars.

>> to let your imagination run wild.

So, yes.

We are open to the public.

Right now, we're open Thursday, Fridays and Saturdays.

People can register to come out on our website and explore this boardwalk, which is, as I said, is almost two miles in length.

It makes a big loop right down to the old grove parts of the swamp, and during the pandemic, we opened a new trail system that goes through some of the habitats that we're restoring, longleaf pine and native grasslands near the entrance to Beidler.

We have lots of things for people to do here.

>> The only thing that you can't do here is run out and buy a hamburger.

So bring a picnic lunch.

>> Bring a picnic lunch.

We have picnic tables.

It's a great place to come and spend the day, spend the afternoon or the morning, but it's a good place to bring a snack and some water with you.

>> Well, it has just been wonderful.

Thank you for the work that y'all are doing here, and for the opportunity to let South Carolinians and people from all over the country understand the importance of a place being preserved and how it ties in so much farther than just a place halfway between Columbia and Charleston.

>> Oh, absolutely.

Thank you Amanda for your interest, and we'd love to have you and everybody come out to visit.

♪ (acoustic instrumental) ♪ ♪ >> I want to thank Matt Johnson for all the accommodations he made to let our crew come down to Beidler.

They were having pandemic schedule.

Some days they were open, some of them closed and he made a special effort to let us come in there and then Ryan McGill, who is one of our crew members here in Sumter went down there one day early, early, early, and watched to get those wonderful pictures of the prothonotary warblers flying back and forth and feeding their babies.

Thank you, Ryan, for making the trip so early in the morning, because that's when they really like to do all the feeding, and I want to thank all of you who joined us tonight who sent in questions and pictures and Gardens of the Week, and I hope that you will join us next week, right here on Making it Grow.

Night, night.

♪ (Making it Grow closing music) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (Making it Grow music concludes) ♪ Making it Grow is brought to you in part by the South Carolina Department of Agriculture Certified South Carolina Grown helps consumers identify, find, and buy South Carolina products, Mcleod Farms in Mcbee, South Carolina.

This family farm offers seasonal produce including over 22 varieties of peaches, additional funding provided by International Paper and the South Carolina Farm Bureau Federation and Farm Bureau Insurance.