- Black men have historically faced their own unique barriers as it relates to racism, health outcomes, fair housing, oversexualization, you name it.

As those compound, psychiatrists say it's no wonder mental health is one of the biggest hurdles today.

With roadblocks like stigma, inequitable access to culturally appropriate care and generational trauma, Black men have largely been told the mental health movement isn't for them.

But that hasn't stopped leaders within these communities from forging forward.

I'm Kylie Ambu, and on today's "Mutually Inclusive," we're honored to talk with Black men here in Muskegon County in an honest discussion about mental health.

(gentle music) The mental health movement has been growing steadily over the past few decades, but progress hasn't hit everyone equally.

In fact, there's a pretty large racial and gender discrepancy.

The National Institute on Minority Health and Health Disparities show African Americans are 20% more likely to experience serious psychological distress than white Americans.

This can present as sadness, hopelessness, and feeling that they have to dedicate extra effort to everything they do, just to name a few examples.

When Black Americans do have symptoms, data shows they're more disabling, persistent, and treatment-resistant than symptoms experienced among white people.

And when it comes to gender, women are more likely than men to seek help.

Now, mental health is an important topic that does affect everyone, but experts say when looking at different populations, there's contextual differences that have to be addressed.

Now, this isn't racism in medicine like the early days when white doctors believed Black patients were more pain-resistant, or Black athletes had some type of weird physical advantage compared to their white counterparts.

Experts are talking about generational trauma, systemic oppression, these manmade problems that have created a mental health storm for Black Americans, specifically men.

To dive deeper, we spoke with Lazarusman Community Counseling services in Muskegon, which has a unique mission to close the gap.

(gentle music) Michigan is far from a mental health desert.

In fact, it usually ranks in the high to middle range when compared to the rest of the nation's care.

But some cities within the state are still struggling to meet the growing need for resources.

In Muskegon County, there's a ratio of about 410 people for every one mental health care provider.

These numbers already make it difficult for those seeking care to find help, but it becomes even more complex for Black men.

- One of the questions I'm often asked is, How come Black people don't come to counseling as much?

They do, and it's changing and it's getting better.

But historically, African Americans, their comfort was rested in the church.

It was a spiritual thing.

And that also being a spinoff of racism.

- [Kylie] Cedric Scott Has an unique experience in Muskegon County Being one of few Black male Mental health professionals He runs his own practice, Lazarusman Consulting, and leads the Center for Racial Health Equity, aimed at creating fair systems and resources as it relates to mental wellbeing.

- Because racism, if you think about it, is designed to A, marginalized, undervalue, under-expectation.

That creates a inordinate amount of shame.

For example, if I'm being identified as a depressed person and being depressed is shameful, I'll do anything I can to avoid that label.

- [Kylie] Being forced into racial and gender stereotypes, experts say Black men can become dehumanized over time and their emotional needs invisible.

The National Alliance on Mental Illness cites data showing 63% of Black people believe mental health conditions are a sign of personal weakness.

- There's all a macho, machismo kind of thing, if you will, too.

"Be strong.

We can handle on our own.

Just suck it up.

You'll be all right.

It'll be better tomorrow" kind of mentality.

That's prevalent as well.

But again, not showing weakness.

When you're constantly being challenged by the stigma or the pressure of marginalized, undervalued, under-expectations, if I show that I'm weak, then clearly see, he is, he just can't do it.

He doesn't have what it takes.

- [Kylie] When you look back on US history, was there ever a time Black men weren't forced to be resilient, fighting to survive and exist within brutalizing systems?

Scott says these sentiments are still at play today, but hiding in a different light, especially when it comes to health.

- We talk about mental health, how it affects African American community is a constant.

I wouldn't even say ebb and flow, but it's there as a constant flow that hinders the access to mental health as well as medical services.

The key element of so many of our mental health as well as our physical health issues are the constant levels of stress.

African Americans are twice as likely to have hypertension, twice as likely to die from diabetes.

Again, what we're talking about is individuals running away from mental health counseling versus coming to.

That is why, again, I suggest that the numbers are so high in our population - [Kylie] But stigma isn't the only barrier to care.

Scott cites mistrust in the medical field as another high factor.

- That sociocultural conditioning aspect of things has gone down for generations, and I've even been wager to say it's in our DNA being strong, quite frankly, having the opposite under-expectations for society around us.

Lack of expectations from the medical field because of the atrocities been perpetrated upon us for so long.

You've had the Tuskegee experiment and very well publicized, so you know about that.

My folks know of other experiments as well that were passed on to me.

So there's always a level of fear and lack of confidence in the overarching society.

- [Kylie] The 1932 syphilis study at Tuskegee was orchestrated by the US Public Health Service to explore the damage untreated syphilis does to the human body.

Researchers specifically recruited Black men as test subjects, 600 total, 399 of which had the disease.

But there was no informed consent.

Participants were only told they were being treated for bad blood.

Despite a cure for syphilis being widely available just over a decade later, none of the participants were offered treatment, as researchers wanted to track the disease's full progression.

It's estimated around 100 people died as a direct result by 1969.

The study wouldn't end until 1972.

Among other racist medical notions, was the assumption that Black people didn't feel pain as intensely as white people, an idea many African-Americans say still plagues clinical settings today.

- In other words, the patient says, "Hey, I'm in pain."

The medical provider, being of a different race, looks at the patient and say, "Well, that should not happen because you're Black.

You're built to withstand more pain than most.

You don't suffer pain like other folks."

That a discriminatory process built on a premise of racism.

Right?

My physician, it was kind of weird to me that he came in and he had this solemn look in his face and he sat down and he said to me, he says, "Now, if you're honest with me, just be forthright with me, we'll be fine.

We'll have a good relationship."

I thought that was a no-brainer.

But he felt the need to come in and say that to me.

- [Kylie] Scott says ideally there'd be diverse providers, with trusted culturally-responsive care options.

But representation is lacking.

In 2015, a study by the American Psychological Association showed only 4% of psychologists in the US workforce were Black.

Now, today's shortage isn't necessarily unique to other years, but it does come at a time that industry leaders are calling a mental health tsunami for Black men.

- Think about the pandemic, where we were isolated when we were really afraid to touch each other.

And you take a look at that and compound the yes, it's here now, right now, a finger-touch away, and seeing those graphic deaths, murders, and then having no one to talk to about it, no one to process this whole thing.

No one to really process with them while you're in lockdown.

- [Kylie] But even if there aren't enough providers to do the work, Scott says access is a whole other issue.

Can I ask how much of your clientele is African American?

- This is gonna...

Okay.

Yes, you may.

And the answer, contrary to what you would think, is probably 20% African American and probably 80% are Caucasian and other.

And now here's the twist, resources.

They can afford it.

- [Kylie] Despite national poverty rates hitting a historic low for Black communities in 2019, data shows Black Americans still face the highest poverty rate compared to other racial groups in Michigan.

And in 2020, more than 10% of Black adults in the US had no form of health insurance.

The US Department of Treasury admits the nation's history of racism has impacted the economic ability of communities of color.

And with that, healthcare falls as a domino effect.

- Their bottom line of racism is who gets what.

It's a race for wealth, race for resources.

And so whenever that happens, it's the people who are in power of the institutions, the community over a certain population of people that decides what that population get.

And if that institution says, "We think this group of people deserves less," which is racism, then they get less and they suffer more.

Do I aspire to the fact that racism is gonna be cured?

I don't think so.

Not in the country where racism was created, dictate the wealth of the country.

But we can make progress with it.

- [Kylie] Scott says raising awareness about mental health is the biggest thing Black men in outer communities can do.

Whether that's through youth programs, word of mouth, or even workplace education.

He cites celebrities like Jay-Z and Kid Cudi sharing their own experiences and elevating the conversation.

- I like to see more of it in terms of counseling being not this boogeyman or disease or something or slime, as more or less something that is welcoming and helpful.

You need more places where these people can come in, at least get the initial intake, get the dose of hope.

(gentle music) - The topic of mental health is always a tricky one to cover since everyone's life experiences are unique.

In this case, also adding on the layers and context of racism and gender stereotypes.

And as we look at this, we wanted to pull in Jon Covington, a Muskegon native and filmmaker, to discuss his recent documentary that explores the lives of Black men.

The film aptly titled "Black Man."

He talks with a number of men in Muskegon County about what it's like to be an African American male.

Some say they wanna change the narrative and stereotypes by sharing their stories.

(gentle music) - [Jon] I'm Jon Covington, and this is "Black Man."

- Because our images have been distorted and so, so often the truth is never told.

(soft dramatic music) This is the opportunity.

(soft dramatic music) - Hopefully it would enlighten them as to, if nothing else, I would say possibly the breaking of a stereotype that has been perpetrated on not only this country, but the entire world, not only Muskegon, but elsewhere, that Black men in particular are viewed with a negative eye, are viewed in a negative way, not a very positive, uplifting type of a manner in which we are looked at.

And so hopefully we can help break some stereotypes with this.

(thrilling music) - Jon Covington, the man behind an amazing documentary on Black men, appropriately titled "Black Man."

We welcome you to "Mutually Inclusive."

- Thank you so much.

It's an honor to be here.

- So you had a conversation, like 50 hours of conversation or more.

- Little bit, little conversation.

Yeah.

- With three dozen men ages 21 to 91 years of age.

And you said in the open, raw conversation, riveting, and I watched it with great interests, those conversations.

And you talked about everything from race, children, marriage, relationships, education a whole lot more.

And you talked with men from Muskegon, but as you said, this is Black men, any town, USA, as we look at that.

And when you speak of the life of Black males in America, it's kind of hard not to touch on the mental health aspects.

And that's what this show is about, Black male mental health, and as we look at life and the things that come their way.

What are your initial thoughts when you look back at your documentary?

This is the first time many of these men have ever, ever released, talked about.

Some of them were in tears, some of them just were emotional, first time ever.

And some of them were like 90 years old.

- Yeah.

First time ever.

As a matter of fact, there are men in the documentary who've been married for many, many, many, many years, decades.

And their wives had never seen them the way that they saw them in the documentary ever.

- So what prompted you to do that?

To take a look at, as you call it, Black man USA and the lives... 'Cause you pos questions in the front like, what about your relationships?

Or who's your favorite NBA player?

I mean, you started that conversation.

What made you do the documentary to begin with?

- Yeah.

Well, the Muskegon Museum of Art was doing a project called Sons, and it was the modern African American male.

And they wanted to do a two, three-minute, five-minute reel a loop, so that while people were waiting to enter the still art exhibit, they would have something visual to look at.

And they got me involved to do it.

We, I think, booked three days, and I was just gonna do this three-minute loop just for people to look at and just ask basic stuff.

And so you could see some visuals before you go in, enter the art exhibit.

And after the second interview in, I stopped the interview.

This was the second guy.

He left this makeshift studio that we had at the art museum.

He walked out of the room and he was the second guy, I think, I interviewed, and he was sobbing when he left.

And I said, and I know him, and I just thought, "Whoa, what is happening here?"

And I went and told the director of the art museum at that time, Judy Haner, I said, "I think we've got more than a three-minute loop.

I think I could probably turn this into a documentary."

- [Jennifer] That was that aha moment.

- It was just like that.

And I said, "Wow."

I get chills now just thinking about how it was just so...

It was just like, "Oh, I get it.

Oh, this is a lot more than what it started out as being, but it's becoming what it was supposed to be."

And maybe had I known that it was gonna be that going into it, it may not have turned out the way that it did.

- So it's a documentary about Black life, Black male life, but it also allowed for, as you found out and discovered in talking with them after, Black release, that doesn't come through the therapist because most Black men, it is documented... - [Jon] Documented.

- It is well documented that they will not seek mental health care because you're supposed to be strong, you're supposed to be the provider, you're supposed to not cry.

All of those things came into play, right?

- Absolutely.

And then also you have to add in too the distrust of the system because of studies like the Tuskegee study and other things.

And then you add that, "Don't cry, you're a big boy.

You don't cry.

Men don't cry," the whole thing.

"You gotta be strong and you gotta deal with it," et cetera.

"You gotta pray."

- [Jennifer] That's just part of life.

- [Jon] Yep.

"Pray about it."

All of those things that I too grew up being told most of those things.

- How is that playing out just the mere fact that they had an opportunity?

Someone listened, someone asked.

A lot of times that's what happens too.

People don't ask, so they hold it in.

Right?

- Absolutely.

Several of the men, I know of at least four of them that start therapy after being a part of the documentary, after that experience.

Some of them started therapy before the documentary was even finished.

They go, "Wow, the release that I felt," from just talking to me.

I'm not a professional therapist by any means.

The release that they felt, and the strength and how empowered they felt as a result of releasing, these are comments that they say immediately after they've seen the documentary.

"Well, I never thought about going to therapy, but I feel like I was in therapy watching this documentary."

And so we decided to add the mental health component to screenings.

In various cities, we bring in a mental health expert to talk about all the things that they've been holding onto that they've not talked to people about, not released.

It's been quite remarkable.

- And you're making strides with that.

How do you feel as the creator of this documentary?

And you have opened doors, and again, wanting to push it further to other men outside of Muskegon, and West Michigan.

How do you feel?

- Humbled, honored, shocked.

This is something much bigger than I ever thought.

I thought I was just doing a small documentary that would be local to the Muskegon community.

Maybe it would come to Grand Rapids.

I had no idea.

So I'm honored by the fact that I feel like I was chosen to be a conduit, a vessel to this.

- Okay.

Personal question time.

What has it done for you and your mental health aspects?

Because the stigmas, the racism, the disparities, all of those things impact people differently, but they're there for general African American male population, right?

I mean, systemic racism is real.

Those things are there.

You being one who allowed other people to speak as you talked with them in this conversation.

You came up with the question, so it has to be like going through your head like, "I dealt with that," or, "Yeah..." But you weren't doing the talking, you were doing the questioning.

So flipping that script, now that I got you in that chair-- - No.

La la la la, la.

- Don't wanna know.

Don't wanna know.

Well, release.

So what are you feeling?

How did it help you?

Or what is it encouraging you to do on any level there?

- It changed my life in terms of I am way more conscious of my own issues, of my own idiosyncrasies, of my own weaknesses.

I'm far more conscious than I had ever been.

And there are things that I had just kind of taken and swept under the rug and put behind the dresser that I didn't know I was doing until I saw the documentary and I go, "Wow, that's me."

Or, "Wow, I can relate to that personally.

And that's my story."

And so it's made me more conscious, more aware.

And I am going to go to therapy.

I've not started yet, primarily to schedule, my schedule.

But it's something that I said I was gonna do in 2024, that I too should get some therapy.

- So it opened your door to know the need for that in just having those conversations.

Well, we appreciate you taking time.

What a wonderful, again, documentary.

We're gonna put up find information, so people can view that.

And we wanna thank you for taking time to share all of that in your heart with us.

We appreciate it.

- Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

(soft upbeat music) - "Black Man."

That film is so powerful.

And we only saw just a few short clips of it.

- Yes, and Jon Covington purposed himself to look at the life and times of African-American males.

He dealt with Muskegon County.

But when we talked, wet took it a step further because I had seen the kind of the backdrop, a panel discussion after his film was premiered at the LEDA Conference earlier this year as well.

- [Kylie] Oh right, the Lake Shore Ethnic Diversity Alliance.

- Absolutely.

And so there was a panel discussion afterward, and he was talking with some of them and some of the young men, and they said, "This is the first time I ever released any of this information, any of these feelings, any of this emotion."

And so we had this conversation and I asked him, "Is that part and parcel of mental health?

Just the ability to release and how a lot of African American males do not release?"

And he said, "Yes."

And so we had a great conversation, as we have seen here today, about Black male mental health and how it correlates and what Jon had to say about that and pulling all those pieces together.

And you had an opportunity also to talk with someone about that realm of mental health.

- Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm thinking about it as you're saying, this might be the first time people have talked about it.

In my conversation with Cedric Scott, we just talked about how there's not really ever been this safe, strong space where Black men can come and share emotions without fear of judgment, or I guess feeling any less masculine by doing that.

- Oh, and that's what Jon was talking about too.

And excuse me.

But it's not cool, or you're supposed to be strong, and those sorts of things.

And to show any sign of a need to chat about something is a sign of weakness of sorts.

And that's what men have dealt with for so many years.

And then just systemic racism in society and things along those lines.

And so he talked also about it's the importance of getting that help.

- [Kylie] Absolutely.

- And that's what all of that the discussion opens the door.

Talking opens the door to people saying, "You know what?

Maybe it's not so bad.

Maybe I can't move forward with this."

- [Kylie] And I think a big hope for me is that, when watching this episode, someone might say, "Oh, it's okay to find care and I might go pursue that now."

- [Jennifer] Absolutely.

- [Kylie] Yeah.

And we know that the mental health movement, specifically in Black male communities, is growing and changing.

We recognize there's no right way to tackle it all in one conversation.

- [Jennifer] That's absolutely right.

And so we are hopeful that this information can spawn what experts are calling for, which is greater dialogue about wellbeing and care.

- And remember, you can watch this episode along with past shows on our website.

Thank you so much for being a part of this important conversation, though, and for helping us to be "Mutually Inclusive."

- We'll of course see you next week.

(gentle music)