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- Chasing happiness.

It has become almost an obsession.

In fact, an obsession during COVID, but what is happiness?

And what's the difference between joy and happiness?

And in general, our sense of wellbeing, these aren't very business concepts, but it does matter to us right after the holidays, these softer science issues.

I'm Chris William, and welcome again to the most widely watched and longest running source of Carolina Business Policy and Public Affairs.

In a moment, we will unpack this idea that we have learned a lot about during the pandemic, and that is happiness.

And we start now.

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The Duke Endowment, a private foundation enriching communities in the Carolinas through higher education, healthcare, rural churches and children's services.

On this edition of Carolina Business Review.

Doug Ottati, Professor of Reformed Theology and Justice, Davidson College.

Dr. Becky Winkler, Executive Coach.

Sepi Saidi, CEO of Sepi Inc, and Ann Marie Stieritz, President and CEO of Liberty Fellowship.

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There was a study done in 2016 of 1000 US adults across many demographics.

And the question was simple.

The question was, would Americans rather achieve great things or be happy?

81% said happy.

We welcome our panel to unpack chasing happiness.

Dr. Doug Ottati from Davidson College, Reverend Dr. Doug Ottati.

Let's start with that piece.

Doug, define happiness.

What is it?

- Well, that's not so easy to do.

It's a classical question.

If Americans are asking it, they're asking a question that's been asked for many 1000s of years.

So that's a point in their favor, I think.

Is it joy?

Most of the time people don't say that happiness is simply joy.

They think that joy is a little bit more fleeting, perhaps not as contextually related to other sorts of things in life.

Happiness, I think over the long haul, has been a question that refers to something Americans sometimes called balance in life.

We can also say that it is a question that has to do with what's appropriate for human beings.

The idea is that if you lead a life that is appropriate for human beings and after all, that's what we are.

We could try leading lives that are appropriate for squirrels, that probably wouldn't go too well.

And so if you lead a life that's appropriate for human beings, that is a kind of a happy life.

Or to put it another way it's related to what's called a good life.

So a good life is one that has satisfactions.

A good life is one that also has trials, but a good life can be called a happy life, that is a worthwhile life.

Something along those lines, I think.

- So, ladies, jump in here.

Do you have a different definition of happiness?

What comes to mind for any of you?

- For me, I think it's all about following your own script and not listening to the rules of society, because those were made for the average person.

And I think that we're all unique and we're only going to be 'happy' as it were if we kind of follow our own individual path.

- [Chris] Sophie, Ann Marie.

- Yeah, I would say that happiness is very difficult to define in a certain way, because different cultures have a different understanding of happiness.

I think in United States, we have the opportunity to choose to live our own lives.

And that's a very important aspect of this, the values to someone in the United States where folks are not living to satisfy their parents' happiness or expectations of their siblings or caring and other things.

So I think we have a real opportunity to live our own lives and to understand and evaluate what that really means for us in each individual, that brings happiness.

That's how I define it and having that opportunity to choose.

- Apologies.

Ann Marie, to listen to you all defining this, we almost interchange joyfulness with happiness and happiness seems to be more of a fleeting emotion.

Someone called it a feather on the wind.

It flies very high, but it doesn't fly for long and then it goes away.

How do you characterize it?

How does it wash over you?

- Yeah.

Thank you for that, Chris.

And I agree.

To pick up a bit on what Doug said, I do think there is a distinction, particularly in an American context, between happiness and joy.

I would say part of the nuance to your point, that joy is fleeting.

As Doug said, these are timeless questions of what is the good life?

What is happiness?

What is a life well lived?

And I think where we're moving toward is understanding that happiness is more a state of being as opposed to simply a fleeting moment, accomplishment or experience.

So I think we're seeing that socially, as you've talked about, this sense that there's a reexamination of this, perhaps across our culture, we have a sense of it, of, how do I want to construct my life?

How do I want it to look and not just one-off experiences, but how do I create an atmosphere in which I can flourish and do so within the context of a society where others are flourishing as well?

- So it seems like the public health crisis has caused us to reflect on this whole idea.

And I'll call it an obsession with happiness.

For any of you, are we obsessed with happiness at this point?

- I think sometimes people are a little obsessed, in American culture, with happiness.

And I think they're obsessed with it as something they think they can achieve or accomplish.

And I think that's probably a mistake.

I think what you have in this public health crisis is an opportunity to reflect, that is to set back, stand back from something.

You can't engage in all of our usual activities, well there goes the constant round of chasing, the constant round of chasing is probably not what's gonna work here.

And this circumstance brings that home.

So people have a chance to reflect, people have a chance to evaluate, questions of balance, questions of work, questions of family life, all those sorts of things.

And that's a kind of an opportunity that you get with this.

I think the other thing is, of course, that the public health crisis is highly tragic, people get sick and die and it raises questions of life and death.

And so when this question of life balance comes up now, it comes up in a context where people are a little worried about what is the meaning of life, huh?

What is a good life?

What is a satisfying life?

What is an appropriate life?

And that's a certain context.

I don't think that's what happens in American society in certain quarters very often.

So this is an unusual circumstance in some ways.

- Sepi, Becky, obviously this is gross understatement, but in the corporate world you interact clearly at the highest levels, in many cases.

Sepi, how are you the pacesetter for what, as Doug just described, as happiness is some type of balance and a life well lived.

How do you do that for your team?

- I try to model it in a genuine, honest way.

And I think that as a leader, for me, it's important that I show everybody that I'm having bad days.

And it doesn't mean that I don't live a happy life and there are difficulties happening.

And I don't want to be in this fictional situation that there's not challenges in life.

But happiness, I think it's the whole self, that you look at life, at the big picture of it, that there are good days, there are hard days, there are challenges.

If you are living an authentic life, then you can create happiness in different forms for yourself and to showcase that to others, I think it allows them to get themselves off the hook that I don't have to go around and just be perky all the time.

But how do I really feel, and do I live a purposeful life?

- Becky.

- I think any time the cement is wet around us, it's an opportunity for change.

And I think what the pandemic has done is really wet the cement of our entire world in a really comprehensive way.

And so my view, as being raised by a Jamaican, not from this country, is the secret to the meaning of life is it's all made up.

So we've taken for granted these things that we assume are real, like we have to go into an office for work.

Says who?

We have to go to this many practices, practice that many instruments in order to get our kid into college.

Maybe, but you might do all the right things and you still might not get there.

So I think there's a little bit around really enjoying the journey and being present in the moment, because that is so much of what we have.

And I'm a big fan of Viktor Frankl and Man's Search For Meaning where he talks a lot about loving and being loved, being a great part of who we are as people.

And so, trying to be that source of positivity and love in this world, I think is a constant challenge.

- I want to go on something Becky said, love is really important.

Loving yourself, loving life, loving others.

I think that to me, is the most essential aspect of happiness for me.

Just really put paying attention to love.

- So thanks Sepi, and not just your comments before that Sepi, but Becky, as you talked about and Doug, but Ann Marie, this idea that we're talking about here are authentic, genuine feelings.

We're not talking about something that just gives you a competitive advantage.

So, and I'm thinking of Liberty Fellowship, obviously, because that's your organization.

But how do you bring people to this idea, whether it's happiness or whether they're trying to find good balance or whatever their meaning of life is, not as a competitive edge, but as something to allow them to become a little bit more genuine.

How do you do that?

- I think we're entering a space where that's becoming more possible.

Sepi, I loved what you said earlier about showing the vulnerability.

Your good days and bad days.

I think from a point of view of leadership, which is where our focuses within Liberty Fellowship is, and the tie to this issue of joy, not having good days does not mean you're not happy all the time.

Happiness and being fully human is experiencing a full gamut of emotions and being able to experience them fully.

So the temporality of a bad day or a bad circumstance for something does not negate everything that came before it, it's the full experience of all of human emotion and all of it.

And understanding that does not mean someone is unhappy.

They may be not joyful in a moment, but yes, but I think Chris, you were asking too about creating these authentic spaces.

I think it's a matter of an orientation that one has to bring to it.

And certainly, in the work that I do, it's about putting people who may not agree with one another together in a room and working through these issues, particularly within leadership, of you can explore your own values, but you are leading others who may come from different places and different orientations.

And how do you reconcile moving forward?

And is it just a competitive advantage to your point of view.

I think it can be a competitive advantage within an organizational context, if true authentic and values-based leadership is evident and modeled and exercised.

- I like this emphasis on competitiveness because I think that probably American culture has gone a little bit crazy on competitiveness.

If you watch the NFL on CBS or the NBA or things like that, you will soon find out that being competitive and winning is about the only thing that matters.

I think that that's unfortunate and that that's a kind of thing that has impoverished American thinking about this to some extent and degree.

There is genuine competitiveness, but there's overblown stuff.

I think this pandemic has pulled people out of some of their ordinary routines and made it so that they can't just keep chasing, chasing, chasing all the time.

So since they can't chase all the time, well they need to think about it a little bit and it's about time.

So I think that's probably a good thing, they think about what's authentic.

They think about what's purposeful.

And when we talk about those sorts of things and it's important, I think theologically, I would say anyway to say, that what you want to do is you want to talk about exercising persons most excellent creative capacities.

So what are people?

And when we talk about love and relationships and modeling things and caring about how we model things in relation to others and what we do, what we're saying underneath all of that is that human beings are created for relationships of affection and commitment and responsibility.

And that being the case, if they focus on that, they're more likely to have a good life, a purposeful life, an authentic life.

And I think that's a good thing to think about.

There are many different answers to the question, but it probably ought to go something along those lines and not simply be 'I'm competing, I'm competing, I'm competing' to the point where I can't think of anything else.

- So enter Dr. Winkler, and Becky, what you do, this is my definition, you're the nexus of those who want to better their game corporately, not just private equity, but people of power, people of wealth, people of influence, people that wanna make more money, wanna have more influence.

So how do you bring this idea?

So we're talking about happiness, but Dr. Ottati just made it a little bit more than that.

So how do you get folks that are genuine enough to take a look at themselves and be vulnerable when what they want to do is be more competitive and make more money?

- Well, first of all, client selection is very important.

So I think if a client isn't willing to take risks or play full out, I don't wanna work with them as much, right?

Because if you're gonna play it safe, then you're wasting your company's money, both of our time.

And what's the point?

And so I am a big believer in understanding that You Are Here spot on that development map.

And for each person that's gonna be different and their destination's gonna be different.

So in some situations, I say, Hey, if this person ends up leaving this company, I'm recognizing this might be the right answer here.

Are you okay with that?

Because again, if we're on our own paths, fulfillment is gonna be defined really differently for different people, and even for the same person, it will be defined differently across their career.

So, coaching is all about helping people meet their goals without telling them what to do and without doing it for them.

And so I think for some people, the seeking process is lifelong and it can be just a co-exploration of 'what does this life mean for you' and 'what are you trying to create?'

And ideally that fulfillment can be aligned with the organization's goals, but sometimes it's not.

Everything I feel like I do is about human potential.

And so my goal is just to help people reach their full potential, which will hopefully have positive spillover effects into everything else that they do, work, non-work, et cetera.

- Sepi, as you've listened to this, and you've talked about what you've done as a leader, as an example, not just within Sepi Inc, but also in the larger business leadership circles that you move in, have you had to make hard decisions that maybe you wouldn't have even two and three years ago, when it comes to being authentic, being joyful, defining what a good and well lived life is?

- Yes Chris, it's a really great question.

And I agree with everything that was said, and I have to say that I have decided that you don't chase happiness.

There's nothing you chase.

Happiness is a state of being, maybe it's drinking my coffee in the morning or walking the dog or happiness is just looking at the fall or winter.

I think the way that I try to live my life and to talk to my colleagues is about being, happiness it's just a state of being and that state of love and gratitude every single day, every morning when you get up.

And being in that place, I think creates more happiness.

I know that I appreciating creates happiness.

If you appreciate a hot shower or a nice meal.

I think happiness for me is all those little things that creates more of that.

- Go ahead, was somebody gonna say something?

- Well, I was just going to say, I like all of these comments.

I think we end up on complicated territory where a number of things count.

I think it's important to say that relationships in life differ at different stages in life and different times.

This is important to take account in leadership and in business and in any other activity.

Look, when you have three small kids hanging around the house, that's different than when they're all in their 30s.

I can tell you that as a matter of fact.

And so the way you can apportion your time is different, what you attend to is different.

But that you pay attention, as Sepi has said, is very, very important.

I think when you talk about the capacities of human beings, one of them is to be able to appreciate a world that is not simply centered on themselves.

They can look at birds working on a nest and think, Well, that's not entirely different than what I do part of the time.

And they can look out into the nighttime sky and they can think my goodness, what is going on?

And what does it mean to be in North Carolina in the middle of this cosmos?

Now, so far as we know, no other creature raises those sorts of questions.

There may be some, but we don't know about them yet.

And that's an important thing.

It means part of the human calling is not just to do, but to appreciate, to be able to take in things.

And this is another classical theme in philosophy, and then other sorts of disciplines, people can appreciate and take in a world in a way.

And that's part of their calling and that's part of what happiness would be.

- So, Doug, is there a moral imperative to be happy, as you just described it?

- Oh, I think there's a moral imperative.

Now, it may be a little distant from what some people think of morality part of the time.

But look, if you can pay attention to a world that's not simply centered on you, that's a major moral point.

So the whole world is not simply about me striving for me.

That's a big deal.

Then if we also then say, as others have said here, that love and relationships are important, this is to build something into this idea that it's not all just about me.

It's about relations with other people and with other possibilities and organizations and aims and purposes.

These are some very, very important realizations for people.

They're not always easily come by, though I think if you scratch most people, if you ask them about their families and how they grew up, they'll say something like that.

They'll say that they really do have debts to some other people.

They'll say that they really have appreciated some things that they themselves did not accomplish.

And if you can get them to focus on that, they'll understand themselves and other people better, they will understand a purposeful and authentic life better, I think.

- As Doug just said, Ann Marie, do you try to get people to focus on that?

Any of the classes that come through Liberty Fellowship or any of the side conversations you have, is that important for what you're doing?

- Yes, absolutely.

I appreciate that because I was gonna chime in before Doug did.

And I said, I think we're having a very American conversation in some ways about the focus on self-actualization within an individual context, whereas as you've just hit on and Doug, the idea of being in relationship and being in loving relationships is inherently social.

And what is this place we're creating together?

And are we happy with that?

And for those of us that, let's admit it, have a luxury to engage in these conversations, what responsibility do we have, particularly in leadership positions, that many of us occupy, to try to create a place where that's feasible for others as well.

And that, to your point, Chris, is where I think our emphasis with Liberty Fellowship is a recognition of you are tremendously accomplished as a leader, but you're also committed to change and a commitment to others.

And how do you translate that into something beyond yourself to collaborate with others and create this opportunity to open avenues for others, as well, that there's a responsibility inherent in that with leadership and the ability to engage in this reflection.

- So we have two minutes left.

Becky, so is happiness a worthy pursuit?

And if not singular happiness, that seems to be fleeting and almost ethereal, if not just happiness, what is a worthy pursuit?

How would you describe it?

- How would I describe what a worthy pursuit is?

I really appreciated Doug bringing up the concept of awe and the importance of that for mental health and being in mystery and having exposure to things that are greater than ourselves, which we all do, whether we pay attention to it just at this point or not is a different matter.

But I think it's always a worthy endeavor to try to stay on the bright side of the line, to try to learn, grow, push yourself out of your comfort zone, serve others.

You know the bad times are gonna come one way or the other.

So, welcoming them and accepting them in equal measure.

Because as long as we're striving to be on this side, the universal round out are experienced in exactly the way that it's supposed to.

- Sepi, what's a worthy pursuit?

As you just described it, you went way beyond what happiness is, what is a worthy pursuit for you?

We have about a minute.

- I would say, actually, to focusing on self, to truly living an authentic life that make you happy and making that a priority and loving yourself.

Pursuit of loving yourself is a realization that I learned through the COVID.

What does that really mean?

And why is it so important?

Because I think, through that you're really enabling yourself to love others in an authentic way.

- Doug, we have about 30 seconds left and George Bernard Shaw said we have no more right to consume happiness without producing it than to consume wealth without producing it.

30 seconds, your thoughts.

- Pursue a good and authentic life.

If you're in a position of leadership, give other people opportunities to do the same.

That's the difference between good management and good leadership and something that none of us wanna be caught in.

So I think that's probably it.

And I think Shaw's probably right, not all the time, but at least on that one.

(Chris laughing) - Okay.

That'll be the last word.

Thank you all for being so willing to talk about one of those things that are hard to pin down, but we certainly wish you all happiness this year as we move forward and a happy weekend.

Thank you for watching our program.

Until next week, I'm Chris William.

And again, I hope your business, and your life, are pretty good.

Good night.

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