(soft upbeat music) - [Presenter] "Workin' It Out," a podcast show about diversity, equity and inclusion in our workplaces, our communities and our lives, a show where we put diversity and inclusion to work.

♪ Got problems on the job ♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workplace got you stressin' ♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Yeah, we're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workin' it out, workin' it out ♪ ♪ With Dr. Vee ♪ - Welcome, I'm Dr. Vanessa Weaver, your host of "Workin' It Out," the show where we put diversity and inclusion to work.

This episode of "Workin' It Out" explores the hot topic, "Another DEI Casualty: Black Film."

This topic goes to the very heart of what stories and images will be produced for Black and other people of color, and to engage in and to enjoy and to see ourselves.

And it also speaks to how Black producers will become financially established players.

We're very fortunate to have the owners of Octet Productions, Chuck and Bree West to join us in today's conversations about the status of Black film and the anti-DEI movement.

I'd like to say welcome to Bree and Chuck.

- Thank you for having us.

- Thank you.

- In fact, this is the second time you've been on our show, and the last time we talked you were preparing to film a potential "Wesley Christmas" trilogy in South Africa.

So before we get into the status of Black film and the movement and the anti-DEI movement, I'd like to hear what's been happening with Octet.

- Wow, so much.

Well, like you said, the last time we spoke, we were actually getting ready to go to South Africa to shoot the third rendition of the "Wesley Christmas" franchise, which was "A Wesley South African Christmas."

It just aired on BET+ on the 21st of November here in the States.

And we just went over, back over to South Africa for two premieres, global premieres over in South Africa.

- For the December 21st global premier, because it not only aired in the United States, it aired on the continent and it also aired in Europe.

So we're super excited about the fact that our Wesley family, our Black Wesley family has gone global.

- When you say the continent, you mean the continent of Africa, hmm?

- Absolutely.

- Yes.

- That's the only continent we refer to as the continent.

(soft pulsing music) - And what about your "Hush" productions?

I understand it's going to its next season?

- Well yes, and that's a hush.

But we've been told that it's coming soon.

- You got the scoop.

- Yes, I believe we'll start on that at the end of this year.

So we're very excited about that as well.

- Well, given the fact that Octet Productions continues to move on in spite of the kinds of movements against DEI, in particular DEI as it impacts the movie industry, what is your understanding of what's happening?

Is all of this anti-DEI stuff impacting Black productions and your movie industry?

- Absolutely it is.

It's impacting us and we're feeling all...

I can't tell you, I would honestly tell you, in speaking with other colleagues, Black colleagues, it's impacting everybody.

The push for more Black programming has declined substantially.

And then in addition, we're finding ourselves now instead of moving forward with our business model, we're almost competing because there are so few opportunities now, and it's almost like the needle in the haystack at this very moment.

We're hoping that it's gonna get better, but right now it's a mess.

- And it's not just affecting the smaller production companies, it's affecting the larger ones as well.

Even up to the Kevin Hart level, no projects are getting green lit like they have been over the years.

And we all know the reason why.

- What's pretty disappointing about that is that, as you know for, I wanna say for a couple of decades, there was a concerted push to get the movie industry to really be more reflective of the diverse audience that looked at the movies.

There was criticism, justifiably so, that there were not enough Black productions or Asian productions or Latino productions to represent the marketplace, to represent the populations in the marketplace.

And so there was this push, push, push, and it would be some wins, and then you'd go back, and there'd be some losses.

But there was this continual push, and we began to see inroads, significant inroads in the industry.

And in fact, I thought the industry was making significant inroads into this whole DEI movement way before some of the corporate partners were really participating.

- And it was, you're correct.

Especially after George Floyd, there was a major push to get more Black programming, to see more representation.

And we were very excited about that because it gave us the opportunity to tell our stories authentically and really tell our stories creatively.

And the thing is what's happening now is because there's such a limitation of the desire.

I believe that the consensus is that Black people are gonna watch what's on television.

We do watch a lot of mainstream television.

That's just kind of what it is.

That's fine.

But the fact that we don't see ourselves or have ourselves to see and our own stories to tell, it's very disheartening, and we're very concerned about that.

So we're making a very intentional and strategic effort to make sure that we continue to tell those stories and incorporate those stories in all of the projects that we do.

- Well, when I hear you talk about the strategic effort you made, it made me think about and reflect on your vision you have for the company.

And I wonder if you would share that with us.

- We have made a concerted effort to make sure that we choose projects that show our people in a good light because we're not the Shoot 'Em Up, Bang Bang Production Company.

We wanna show, like when you look at the "Wesley Christmas" franchise, it's all about an affluent family and what happens during holiday season.

But really what happens, not just, okay, well, we're just showing this for television.

It's real authentic stories.

- And I think also it's important for us, our business model has been to uplift the Black family and to celebrate Black love.

We do have now, now we have "Hush," and "Hush" is very salacious, and this is a little hot mess of a storyline.

But at the end of the day, it's about showing us in positive environments.

Because with art everyone has different interpretations and different ways of exhibiting their story.

And so for us, it's important to always be mindful and be intentional in telling stories that not only educate and not only entertain, but educate, like edutain.

We just went on a whole national press tour with Jasmine Guy, TC Carson and Dorien Wilson, and these three individuals are icons in our world because they were on some of the most successful Black sitcoms in, I guess from the '80s, '90s and early 2000s.

And those sitcoms, everywhere we went, didn't matter what state we were in or even what country, people would walk up to them and say, "You know, I just wanna say thank you.

You raised me."

They didn't say, "We loved your show."

They said, "You raised me.

Seeing you on TV told me I could go to a college, that there are historically Black colleges and universities, that I can get a degree, that I could be a lawyer, that I could be fly and successful living in New York City with my people."

All those things are things that you don't think about the fact that these kids aren't just watching it for entertainment.

Some of these kids come home to an empty house, and that's who keeps them company until their parents come home.

And so having that there is a level of comfort because you know that you see positivity.

That's why it's so important.

It's important for us to be intentional in the stories that we're telling because it's important for our people to see positivity.

- And based on the kinds of awards and recognition that you've gotten for the "Wesley" series and your other productions, it seems to also be resonating with this generation.

- Yes, absolutely.

One of the things that they always tell us is thank you.

Thank you for giving, showing beautiful Black families loving each other.

Thank you for having it be silly little drama, but nothing like infidelity or murder or stealing or controversy of that nature.

And that's something that we did by design.

- Well, I was wondering if you all could help me with this disconnect.

Because as we were just researching the status of Black media and the impact of the anti-DEI movement, a lot of the studios issued statements that said they were reorganizing their businesses, they were looking at different profitability models.

There were all of these business reasons why they were maybe decreasing or eliminating some of their DEI programs.

Yet the response to your series and your movies, as well as what we know from years ago, from decades ago to the sitcoms you just talked about, indicated that Black audiences do respond and that they do have the viewership.

So I'm trying to figure out, are they saying that there's not the same kind of value or the same kind of audience to the kinds of movies and films that Octet produces or other Black production companies produce, so therefore that's a justification to reduce or eliminate DEI?

- There is no justification.

They're dancing around the real issue.

And what they're trying to do is use this as an excuse to get rid of as many African American executives in the higher positions that can help bring Black producers and Black production companies and even Black actors into the fold.

And now they're gatekeeping like they used to.

- You know what's interesting about that?

The first season we were nominated for two... Not the first season, the first year, the first movie of "Wesley Christmas" was nominated for two NAACP Image Awards.

The second year we weren't nominated for an Image Award, but we received another accolade, which was in IMDB.com's top 50 Christmas movies of the year.

We were number 11.

We were the first Black cast, Black produced project of the 50 at number 11.

But then the next Black project wasn't until 30 something.

And so what that tells us is not just that Black people were watching our movies, but white people, America was watching our movies.

And when you look at the demographics of who's watching BET, the number one group is, of course, Black women.

But the number two group is not Black men, it's white women.

So my point is that we are resonating, but it doesn't matter because again, the suggestion is that as long as there is something on television to watch, we'll be happy to watch it as Black people.

- Even though their data shows that movies that people can connect to where they see themselves in the characters that are in those movies and in the storylines of those movies generate larger audiences, which generates more revenue for them because they have bigger advertising, advertisers that they can attract.

- Well, you know what they say about Black spending.

We're one of the highest spending... We have the highest spending power of all races.

And at the end of the day, you still look and see that we're not catered to in commercials either.

What's happening unfortunately is that I think there became a time when there were too many people who look like us that were getting these high positions and really achieving levels of success in a business that is not historically ours.

The entertainment business is very gate kept and very selective, and it's very hard to break into.

And we were very blessed to be able to break into it in a significant way from our perspective.

But at the end of the day, I think that this is just a way of bringing it back to the good old boys.

- Control.

- Control.

- Many of the statements that the studios released about their DEI commitment and justifying why they were rolling back on some of the DEI commitments, talked about business considerations, but they also talked about the impact of societal and political efforts, that they were responding to that as well.

And it struck me that they, in fact, are responding to some of the pressure of these anti-DEI folks, that, in fact, we had to exert or other pro-DEI, other pro-diverse groups were exerting some decades ago on the studios to, in fact, be more diverse, to include more programming or more programs and producers to tell our story.

So my question is what is it that the Black or the Latino or the Asian viewer, what should they be doing to convey or communicate to these studios that this still does matter to them and that they really feel and know that they have a viable economic power in terms of their own productivity?

- I think social media is a very powerful tool, and the best thing that they can do is speak about that, speak about what they wanna see.

And when there is a project that has a minority predominantly of color cast, comment, comment, speak about it.

We don't take for granted that it's there because we can't afford to anymore.

If you wanna see the programs that represent you and reflect you as well, you've gotta talk to your networks about it.

Because at the end of the day, there's no legal obligation to include or open doors for anyone at this point.

So you've gotta be real intentional as a viewer about what you wanna see and how you wanna see it presented.

Because the reality is we have historically worked with BET, which was Viacom.

Now Viacom is Paramount, and now BET is kind of in a balance because we're not sure what's gonna happen with BET.

So they're not really spending right now.

Allblk is still moving, that's AMC's network, excuse me, predominantly Black streaming network, but there are a lot of changes happening right now, and it is important now for people to voice their opinions about what they're looking for.

Now, in all fairness, after the strike and all the other things that have happened and the nature of what's going on politically and what have you, there are a lot of changes that are gonna happen in entertainment and in the film business.

- This year, this year.

- This year.

It's gonna be a lot.

- [Vanessa] 2025.

- Yeah, so it isn't solely a diversity, equity, and inclusion situation.

It's a lot going on because there're gonna be a lot of transitions, we believe, right?

- Yeah, absolutely.

- And so in that, while this is happening, it's very important to reach out to your Peacocks or your Foxes or whomever it is that you enjoy watching and supporting and tell them what you wanna see and what you're looking forward to seeing.

Because the reality is a closed mouth doesn't get fed.

- In the previous effort to get the studios to be more responsive to communities of color, there was a coalition between civil rights organizations and other organizations that had a vested interest in getting more diversity, along with the producers and the actors and whatever.

Do you see that type of coalition in play now?

- Not nearly as much because it's to the point where they have law firms that are reaching out to organizations that have supported African Americans or people of color- - Focus.

- Yeah, and letting them know that if they continue to move like they've been moving, then lawsuits will be taken against them.

- Yep, they're talking about it.

Even for example, nonprofits that are working towards bringing more Black people or people of color into entertainment, they've been threatened that if they...

The funders have been threatened.

If you continue to support and focus on this initiative that focuses solely on a minority and not on everybody, then we will sue you.

So it's not just...

It's no longer quiet and under the table.

This thing is blatant.

And it's important that people understand that this is a very serious thing that's not just impacting the entertainment business, but this is something that's gonna have, it's gonna be uncomfortable for a minute for a lot of people.

Now, I'm very optimistic that we will definitely overcome it because that's what we do.

But at the end of the day, yeah, it's not quiet and sweet smiling in your face.

They're real blatant with it now.

- Yeah, and in fact, as we were just doing our research, it became very clear that the movie industry, the TV and the movie industry were probably the initial testing grounds for this strategy.

Many companies have just recently been approached by groups who say, "We want you to dismantle or to eliminate your diversity efforts."

And so it's almost like it was very quiet and happening before there was a lot of community awareness and recognition of it.

And it obviously didn't seem to be a lot of resistance, so it's gained this momentum.

- I don't know, it's interesting.

I think that over the last few years, we... See, initially we were very active in just focusing on filmmaking and honing in on our skill and refining our craft, refining our skill for our craft.

And so we weren't really involved in the political part of it, because we just had a constant steady flow of work, which was great and constantly trying to improve.

But as we set out to grow and expand, we started meeting with a lot of people in Hollywood.

And Hollywood is like any other businesses, it's very much connected by relationships.

And so it was very encouraging to meet a lot of these people of color who were in these positions these last few years.

And it's been so disheartening to hear how many have been terminated from their positions.

- So many of them of our early meetings with executives, African American executives, so many of them now have been released or have left because... We know of one, I'm not gonna say her name, but she was told to train someone for her position.

- Yeah, stay on board and train this other person, this mainstream person for your position, and we're gonna figure out something else for you later.

- So she quit.

- Yeah, it's very unfortunate, and I think it's coming to the forefront.

And the reality is people don't understand how important entertainment is, especially television and films.

It's a very inexpensive way to relax, to woosa.

And we've taken for granted that we've had the ability to look at people who look so much like us, so many different shows.

You could turn the channel and see it often.

I remember in the '90s I was in college and I took a class, and they said that there were five different roles that Black people played historically on television, which was like mammies, coons, bucks, Toms and... Mammies, coon, Uncle Tom, mammy, coon, Buck and, oh, tragic mulatto.

And that was the historical, that's just what they played.

And through the '90s, that was pretty consistent until "The Cosby Show" or something like that.

As time has evolved, we've come into our own as Black people and you see them in all forms.

You see presidents and everything else.

- So my question is, when you think about the challenges that you're confronting now that are influenced by this anti-DEI movement, what do you see as some ways that maybe you can respond to it?

How are you thinking about your business differently or what ways are you thinking about continuing to fight and move forward?

- We're also expanding globally.

- Well, I was glad you mentioned the fact that you've gone global.

So just versus your business being just US-centric, you've already gone into Africa.

That's a big marketplace to tap, and maybe it demonstrates for several people that we do need to have a broader vision of where we can go and alliances that we can create.

And I think Octet obviously demonstrated that.

- Absolutely, and that was intentional as well.

The idea for us when we said that we were gonna go and shoot over in South Africa was because we wanna close the diaspora.

- So I'm looking forward to the growth that I'll see in Octet.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

And thank you for your show and what you're doing because bringing attention to the fact of what's actually going on creates that conversation.

And with that conversation, we can create change.

- So on behalf of our "Workin' It Out" crew, first of all, again, I wanna thank Chuck and Bree West, owners of Octet Productions, and I'd also like to send a shout out and a thanks to my "Workin' It Out" crew as we shut down this episode of our show this week.

And I wish everybody a very blessed and what we call Be Happy Week.

I'm Dr. Vanessa Weaver and I'm signing off.

Goodbye.

♪ Got problems on the job ♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workplace got you stressin' ♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Yeah, we're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workin' it out, workin' it out ♪ ♪ With Dr. Vee ♪