(music playing) - Hello.

My name is Kwame Spearman, and I am the CEO and co-owner of Tattered Cover book stores.

This year, we've decided to partner with PBS12 for our Leaders as Readers series.

In short, we're taking candidates who are running for statewide office here in the great state of Colorado and asking them what books have insp0ired them.

We and PBS12 believe that reading is not only fundamental, but it's also something we want to humanize.

And so, by having leaders come on this show and talk about their favorite books, hopefully you'll learn something about them, but also remember the importance of reading.

Today, we're talking to our current Attorney General Phil Weiser.

Phil, it's great to have you on board.

- It's great to be here, Kwame.

- Phil, you have chosen two books for us.

One is Leadership in Turbulent Ti mes by Doris Kearns Goodwin, and the other is Mindset by Carol Dweck.

We're going to talk about both of them today.

For our viewers, we're going to kind of go sequentially in your life.

Mindset , at least to me, a little bit more sort of a childhood sort of focus and growth and whatnot.

But why don't you give us the overview of you?

Talk to us a little bit about your biography.

And then we'll get into your love for the book.

- There are a lot of ways to talk about this, but let me start with the fact that I grew up kind of at a time that my parents were really living the American dream.

My mom was born in a concentration camp, and was liberated by the US Army.

My grandparents were Holocaust survivors.

They came to the US in 1950s, not speaking the language, with literally no money, and with no particularly marketable skills.

They both got jobs working in what was then known as the Schmatta District, making coats.

And my mom went to school at home at City University of New York.

My dad grew up in Montreal, went to McGill University.

Also lived at home.

They got married right when they graduated.

They had me right afterwards.

And so, as I'm growing up, they're finding their way, trying to make it.

And part of what I grew up with was this American ideal "you can do anything."

My grandparents came to this country because they believed this was the land of freedom and opportunity.

And I really grew up with that spirit of this country.

And that was something pretty powerful, that you could dream big.

And here I am as Colorado's Attorney General, after a series of experiences in my life, all of which were shaped by this idea that in the United States of America, anything is possible.

- And you are incredibly modest about your background.

But if you were going to cover some of the things that you did in between let's call it high school and becoming Attorney General, what are some of those things?

Because I think everyone would love to know that.

- Well, let me underscore, no one gets anywhere alone.

I had extraordinary mentors.

And this book Mindset is important because what it tells us is, don't look at people and say, "Oh, this person is Attorney General.

They must be a great lawyer," or something.

No.

The people who are there are people who've worked hard.

People talked about this with Michael Jordan.

People said, "Oh, he was so naturally talented."

No, he worked really hard.

Michael Jordan did not make his high school basketball team.

And now we think about him as the greatest player ever.

Mindset is about hard work.

And the mentors I had said to me, "Phil, you're not that good of a writer.

You got to get better.

You got to practice more."

And so, in college, I got that message from an important mentor, and I've kept working on my writing.

And that mentor said, "Go to college.

Go to law school."

And then another mentor in law school said, "Clerk for a judge."

And that's how I got to Colorado, clerking for a judge.

- And this is why I love interviewing you.

The law school happened to be a school in Cambridge.

- NYU, actually.

- Oh, NYU, excuse me, yes.

And the clerkship was with a Supreme Court Justice... - Byron White and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

It was a special experience.

- It's amazing.

And the reason why I hype you up, because I do want to talk about Mindset ... To your point, I think a lot of times, people believe that they're potentially in situations because that's their life's lot.

And in your history, your upbringing, and your success, you don't feel that's the case.

And in many ways, Mindset is a book that sort of espouses that.

Give us an understanding for those who have not read Carol Dweck's really, really great book.

What is it about?

And what are some of the key takeaways?

- There are a lot of ways to think about it, but let me talk about it as a parent.

And let me actually use my political campaign as the tapestry.

My daughter, four years ago--now a little more than that--was calling people for the Democratic State Convention.

These are all delegates.

And it was basically, "Hi.

My dad is running to be Attorney General.

Would you consider supporting him?"

And my daughter is not a naturally salesperson.

She's more on the introverted side.

Another great book, by the way, Quiet , I'd recommend strongly to people.

And what she said is, "Dad, this is really hard.

I want to keep working on it until I get better at it."

That's what Mindset is.

When you work at something, you can get better at it.

And we should never, in ourselves or in our kids, accept "I'm not good at math," which, by the way, my daughter came home one day, said that, and my wife was like, "No.

You are good at math."

My daughter now is going to medical school and doing great in math.

We can't let ourselves internalize these messages that, maybe because we try something and it doesn't go as well the first time, or someone tells us something.

Instead, let's think about us as a work in progress.

And we work on ourselves to get better at things.

I mentioned me as a writer.

I was not a good writer in high school.

I was a marginal writer in college, a decent writer in law school.

I've kept working on it.

- And Carol Dweck calls this the growth mindset.

- Yes.

- What's your definition of a growth mindset?

- That you have the ability to get better at doing something.

The fixed mindset is the contrast, which is you are what you are.

I don't believe that.

I believe in feedback as a gift.

And a way that I lead our office is around this idea that we want people to get the benefit of feedback so they can get better.

We're all works in progress.

- Let's go back to your childhood.

Extraordinary story of your parents coming over to the United States.

Where did you learn a growth mindset?

How did that become embedded within you?

- I just think I learned to keep working and not to give up.

And I think the story of resilience and overcoming adversity that my family lived through obviously puts a lot in perspective, including the times we live in.

And I've internalized that.

- And did you receive positive either affirmation or reaffirmation when you were learning things that might have been foreign to you, that might have been foreign to your parents at the time?

Who are individuals that-- - My mom was an incredible cheerleader.

My mom's belief, you can do this, you can do what you put your mind to, you keep working on it.

And that was a very important, positive message that, again, nurtured me as I took on new challenges.

And I'm someone--And my dad had a similar message.

When I was in college, he said, "Don't just do things based on their prestige or money.

Take on challenging experiences, and work to get better."

And as the dean of a law school, that was my advice to students, which is, work on developing competencies that help you become better at what you're doing.

And try to tune out all the noise that's basically going to interfere with your own personal development.

- It's so true.

I see this at Tattered Cover all the time, where we have particularly kids coming into our store, and we will ask them, "Do you consider yourself a reader?"

And there's a 08:06 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ list of books that, if you like, you're sort of tapped into that "I'm a reader" category, and if you don't, too frequently, you're not thinking of yourself as a reader.

And what we're able to do is just ask them, "What do you like reading?"

And once that question is answered, just saying, "Actually, that makes you a reader," taking a very Montessori approach, changes their mindset.

And this is kind of what Dweck was hitting on.

- It is.

And actually, my daughter initially said, "I'm not a good reader."

And I remember starting with the Bob Books .

And she would refuse to read.

And we would bribe her to read.

And then it was the-- - Carol Dweck did not advocate bribing.

- That's true, she didn't.

You're not supposed to do that, just to be clear.

I'm imperfect, like us all.

- Horrible parent.

- Bad parenting moment.

But we're desperate.

You do what you got to do.

What turned it around with my daughter was the Percy Jackson series.

That's what turned it around.

And by the way, I read every night to my daughter from when she was born to when she went to college.

And now we're reading the same book together.

I just purchased today a book that we'll be reading together.

We just read together Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow , great book.

I recommend to people.

And I read still every night to my son.

Now I'm reading The Art of Fielding , which is a college book, which is appropriate that my daughter's in college.

Reading has been a big part of our family.

And yes, my daughter started up saying, "I'm not a good reader."

And now she defines herself as a reader.

- That's amazing.

Dweck doesn't just limit herself to people who are coming up.

She also talks about adults and whatnot.

Now you're in your adult career.

You've had a lot of success.

Do you still feel like you have a growth mindset?

- 100%.

Everything I do, I think, "How do I get better at it?"

And I'll ask my team, "What did I do well?

What did I not do well?"

Because anytime you think you've made it, then you're in trouble because then you're complacent.

Let me tell you a story about Justice White, who I worked for, as well as Justice Ginsburg.

He was watching an argument.

He was actually the judge of the argument.

And the lawyer said, "Excuse me, Your Honor, I'm really sorry.

This is my first argument.

I'm really nervous," which was kind of stepping out of role.

You're not supposed to do that when you're arguing before a court of appeals.

And Justice White, in his beautiful voice, said, "Counsel, stay nervous!"

That's how I feel.

Stay nervous.

Never assume you've got this.

Be vigilant.

Be focused.

And ask how do you get better.

- I'm curious about the feedback notion.

You run a business, you're Attorney General, you're constantly getting feedback.

How do you keep the growth mindset and also be very open and willing to accept feedback from your peers, superiors, people below you?

- For me, the growth mindset fuels the feedback.

Because I believe in growth, and because I believed in continuous improvement, I want feedback to keep growing.

That will keep me open to asking for and welcoming feedback.

It is a real risk of leaders that they don't want feedback.

They think they're perfect, and they shut down feedback.

If I can admit that I'm imperfect, admit that I make mistakes, welcome feedback, it sets a tone for the organization.

- Love it.

I love it.

I want to talk about Leadership , as well.

Mindset was sort of young Phil.

Leadership --Let's go through the same process.

You want to give sort of a summary, Doris Kearns Goodwin, I'm sure if you're watching right now, you've read something of hers, or at least heard of her.

She is at the top of her field.

Give us a little bit about what Leadership is.

And then let's have you read an excerpt of it.

- The context is, she has--Doris Kearns Goodwin gets started by watching 11:42 Lindon Johnson, and writes about LBJ.

And then she writes about Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR.

This book takes a really interesting thematic approach about qualities of leadership using each of those case studies in one book.

And I read this, I think, right before I became Attorney General.

It is a tour de force.

And I'd love to read just my favorite part, if I could.

- Let's get into.

- And I'll explain what it is.

"As cold weather approached in the fall of 1902, widespread panic set in.

Still, there were no signs of a settlement in the six-month-old strike between the United Mineworkers, the largest union in the nation, and a powerful cartel of railroad presidents and mine owners who monopolized hard coal production in Pennsylvania.

The massive labor stoppage was already 'the biggest and longest-running news story of the year.'

The Northeast depended almost entirely on coal for winter fuel.

Like a black river with myriad tributaries, coal ran from the collieries and railroad cars in Pennsylvania to the factories and mills, the hospitals, schools, and dwellings of New York and New England.

Damming that river of coal would plunge the entire region into a coal famine.

And like a shortage of bread, coal famine presaged suffering and violence for the populace at large.

Indeed, as the seasonal tragedy began to play out before the public and wintertime drew closer, the coal strike 'assumed a shape so acute' that even conservatives warned Theodore Roosevelt that 'if the situation remained unchanged, we would have within a fortnight the most widespread and bloody civil disturbance we've ever known in our time.'

What made the situation so frustrating for Roosevelt was the remarkable fact that neither legal nor historical precedent warranted presidential intervention to manage any single aspect of the crisis.

So pervasive was the belief that government should refrain from intervening in the workings of an unregulated free market that quarrels between labor and management were considered wholly private matters.

A chorus of voices, including Roosevelt's family, closest friends, and colleagues, advised him that unless the state of Pennsylvania requested emergency troops to quell violent disorder, he had no power whatsoever to take action.

Not only did Roosevelt have no legal authority to intervene, but from a political vantage, he was forewarned to steer clear.

Meddling would poison support from the business community, the Republican party's main stay of support.

Furthermore, if he tried and failed, the responsibility for failure would be laid at his door, damaging his party's prospects in the upcoming fall midterms and his own political future.

Roosevelt's handling of the six-month strike unfolded in three seasonal stages beginning in the spring of the year."

- To give some context as to what that scene is describing, as you mentioned, Goodwin has four presidents that she's following, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and then Johnson.

And this particular example is Teddy Roosevelt talking about the coal strike that was one of the defining moments of his presidency.

Why that section?

What was your takeaway?

- This is really important, and it is relevant to my job.

I'll give you an example.

He didn't have legal authority to act.

As a formal matter, he had no role in this coal strike.

There were concerns politically that if he got involved, it could be bad for him.

For many people, political hazards and no legal responsibility or authority equals "I'm out in action."

- Of course.

- But not Teddy Roosevelt.

Teddy Roosevelt has this awesome quote, one of the best ones for politics.

"It's not the critic who counts.

It's the person in the arena."

He believed he was in the arena to serve.

And he was not going to shrink from solving problems.

He used his moral authority and was very savvy about how he did it--She details it all--to solve a problem.

For me, that is an inspirational tale.

And I'll give you an example.

One of the concerns that is very much on my mind is, when someone is finished serving a prison sentence, and they're going to return as a returning community member, what happens?

Too often, a stumbling block in front of them.

They leave prison with no skills.

They leave prison with no money, with no home, with no job.

50% of people reoffend in that situation and are back in prison.

To me, I'm asking, how do we do better?

Because I believe if we find employment and we give people hope and opportunity, that will protect public safety.

People will be less likely to commit crimes.

Second, the individual will have a fair opportunity, and it will be beneficial to them and their families.

And third, the employer will benefit from hiring people who are going to be dedicated, loyal employees.

So, I started with no formal, legal authority, no responsibility, and some concerns about political attacks, I started a Fair Chance Employers Network, working to encourage this important social good that we in Colorado need to get better at.

- I'm curious.

In your development, was it reading leadership that brought you to this point, or other instances in your history that made you come to this conclusion?

- Well, I want to go back to Mindset here.

I've always had what I would call an entrepreneurial mindset.

When I was in high school, I was running a Model UN tournament.

When I was in college, I was running a concession, I was head of student council, head of debate team.

I've always been running things.

I graduated college, I was working on a political campaign.

So, the idea of making things up as I go, figuring things out, has been part of my life experience.

And that's something that's interesting.

When I was the dean at CU Law School, I would often talk first about an entrepreneurial mindset.

But a lot of people found that too hard to take on board.

- You mean lawyers were concerned about being entrepreneurial?

- I tried to make the case.

I still will make the case.

- OK. - But it didn't go down easy.

So, I switched.

I actually started literally assigning a book called The Start-up of You .

- OK. - Which was a really good book.

Reid Hoffman, who founded LinkedIn, was one of the authors.

And it was a little edgy for some law students.

So, I switched to Mindset , and had every student coming in read Mindset .

To me, the two concepts, an entrail mindset and a growth mindset, are closely related.

And as long as you can get one of the other of those mindsets, I believe you have the tools to be successful.

- It's so interesting.

The common theme in both books, and everything that you've said, is it doesn't seem like you fear failure.

Is that a fair statement?

- That is very important.

I totally agree.

- And where did you learn that?

- Well, let me go back to--And this is meaningful because my daughter has now just started college, the same college that I went to.

I failed a class my first semester in college.

- Really?

- Yes, calculus two.

- So, at the college I went to, Swarthmore College, every course is pass/fail.

I took calc two, and I thought, what's the worst that could happen?

I failed.

And what I took from that was, I'm not going to judge myself by an external indicator.

I'm going to work on experiences that help me grow.

And that's how I'll judge myself.

If you can let go of that word "failure," which is hard, and instead view it as you learn.

You hear this in Silicon Valley.

It's an entrepreneurial concept, fail fast.

It's not a shame.

I actually had this experience at a law school graduation.

A friend of mine, Ron Sangrin, great guy.

I said, "And Ron's law firm failed, and he then rebooted it."

And Ron got up there, and I was honoring him, and the first thing he said is, "The law firm didn't fail."

By that, he meant, "We never laid anybody off."

But they lost all their business.

Their business model failed.

And what they did?

They pivoted to a new business model and were highly successful.

For me, failure is an opportunity to learn.

You pivot.

You try something, you see what happens.

If it doesn't work, you try something else.

Another good book recommendation, Lean Startup.

It picks that point.

You're right.

I'm not afraid of failing.

What I'm afraid of is ever doing anything that would go against my integrity.

That's, for me, what is true north, is acting with integrity.

Failing at some--If I don't win a political campaign, I'll be fine.

If I'm part of a startup and it fails, I'll be fine.

When you act with integrity, when you treat people the right way, you're good, everything else is gravy.

- I love it.

Let's keep on Leadership .

The Teddy Roosevelt part, at least to me, was really the importance of the bullet pulpit, and that as a symbolic leader, you can do things and move people without formal authorities to do that.

Amongst the FDR part of the book-- - That phrase, "the bullet pulpit," was invented around Teddy Roosevelt.

- Correct, correct.

- He was--Literally, speak softly, carry a big stick.

- Correct.

- Bullet pulpit, that is because--We have that concept because of him.

- Yes.

And so, amongst the sections--Once again, if you haven't read the book, it starts off with Lincoln and obviously dealing with the Emancipation Proclamation.

We talked a little bit about Teddy Roosevelt.

FDR dealt, I believe, with the Great Depression, and then Lincoln with the Civil Rights legislation.

Are there any other lessons amongst those other three presidents that have-- - Let me talk about FDR because FDR's attitude was fundamentally entrepreneurial.

When you look at the New Deal, FDR is like, "We're going to try a bunch of stuff.

I don't know what's going to work.

But we'll see what works, and we'll double down on it."

Part of the challenge in government, by the way, is so many people are afraid to fail, which means you're afraid to admit something didn't work, which means you're afraid to try something new.

A lot of times, people don't think about this, but government is not so much republicans or democrats, it's innovation, I want to try something new, or inertia, how have we always done it?

- And so, interestingly, where would you say that you're going on the innovation side of trying and failing, moving forward?

- Well, let me talk about some of our key initiatives.

This reentry effort, we're trying to set up a Fair Chance Employers Network.

That's not something we've done before in Colorado.

It's a public/private partnership.

I'm not sure what form it will ultimately take, but I am convinced that the direction we're going in is the right direction.

We need to help people reenter society better than we're doing today.

And we'll figure out what the best ways to do that are.

Another one is the opioid epidemic.

We have a massive addiction crisis in Colorado and the United States of America.

We are providing money through 19 regional collaboratives to develop new drug treatment, recovery, education, and awareness.

Again, I don't know what the best of those programs are, but we'll see experimentation, and we'll try to learn from that together.

Another issue, police training.

We're modernizing our police academy training for the first time in 40 years, putting emotional awareness and empathy as core competencies that we're developing.

We're working on developing that.

I'm not sure what all those modules are going to look like, but again, a similar sort of process.

We try things, we see what works, and we go with it.

- Did you select Leadership in Turbulent Times because it helped make you a better leader, or do you think we're in a turbulent time right now?

- Yes, and yes.

- OK, let's focus on the latter.

Talk to me about the turbulent times.

- When you look at the United States of America today, and you say, "“What are historical parallels?"

1850s to 1860s Lincoln, 1930s FDR.

The 1890s, 1900s is, I'd say, a distant 3rd.

It's on the list.

Teddy Roosevelt's challenge was our society being disrupted and dislocated by this industrialization that was changing our society.

And his leadership during that time helped us through in a way where some of the tougher challenges of dominant monopoly firms or the challenging labor and management could have gone worse.

But he was really a very thoughtful leader at the helm.

FDR, our country could have easily gone off the rails, our democracy, our economy.

And obviously, with Lincoln, it was a civil war.

Those are three times when our nation was close to the brink.

Today, our democracy is in crisis.

We have these dominant social media entities, many of which have had algorithms that actually encourage polarization, demonization.

We had the disruption of the peaceful transition of power in a way we've never had before.

We are living in a turbulent time.

And it's going to take leadership to get us through.

- Attorney General, thank you very much for this.

And thank you to all of our viewers.

One of the things that, as we started off the program with, both PBS12 and Tattered Cover want everyone to love reading and to see the positive effects of reading.

And hopefully, we showed a little bit of that during this conversation.

Thank you very much.

- It's great to be here.

Love to come back, talk about more books.

I think I only probably talked about 8 or 10 today.

Really, truly, our family are all voracious readers.

I've loved the Tattered Cover ever since I moved to Colorado first in 1994.

You are a storied institution.

Appreciate your stewardship.

Appreciate this series.

- Thank you very much.

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