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- Happy holidays.

A staggering nine out of 10 employees would take a lower salary for more meaningful work.

Remember that term.

In fact, recent studies from groups like McKenzie, Paychecks and others show that a desire for, or really lack of meaningful work has been leading the drive of attrition of workers for the past two years.

For millennial and Gen X and Gen Z, especially, doing meaningful work is a top priority.

What in the world does that mean?

We will unpack meaningful work and we'll do it right now.

- [Announcer] Gratefully, acknowledging support by Martin Marietta, a leading provider of natural resource based building materials, providing the foundation upon which our communities improve and grow.

Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, an independent licensee of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association.

Visit us at southcarolinablues.com.

The Duke Endowment, a private foundation enriching communities in the Carolinas through higher education, healthcare, rural churches, and children's services.

On this edition of "Carolina Business Review", Madeline McGee, from Together SC.

Peter Krull from Earth Equity Advisors and John Simpkins of MDC.

- Welcome again to our program, happy holidays.

It's good to see y'all, Pete, welcome to the program, you haven't been here, Madeline's been, John's been, so you'll find out what we do to newcomers probably a little later on.

- Thank you, Chris.

- Yeah, alright.

We're gonna unpack this idea of meaningful work and we like to take time around the holidays to look at issues without a business or a policy eye.

So, Madeline, I'm gonna start with you.

What constitutes meaningful work?

What does that mean to you personally or to you corporately?

- I do think it's a very personal concept and having spent almost my entire life in the nonprofit sector, you know, I know for me, meaningful work means I see the impact, that I can see a difference because of that.

That I feel that it aligns with my core values, the things that are important to me and that I have some responsibility, that it, you know, that it's not just someone saying, go put this widget on this car, whatever.

It's something that I have control over.

And I remember when I was getting ready to start my career, just the other day, right?

I said to my father, I think I wanna work in the non-profit field cuz my parents were very involved in the Charleston community, and I had watched the work they had done through non-profits.

And my father said, no, nonprofit work, that's not a vocation, that's a hobby.

That's your advocation.

But I said, but if I work in the non-profit field, I can take my advocation, my passion and combine it with my vocation.

And that's really what I've done for the last however many years.

And it's one of the benefits I find in working in the non-profit sector.

- Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

As you're like throwing those terms out, you know, I think about our firm Earth Equity, and we do sustainable investing, but we have a list of core values, you know, and our core values are integrity, they are passion, they are impact, it is responsibility and it's gratitude.

And you just about listed pretty much all those things.

- Meaningful work!

- Exactly, exactly.

- Perfect.

- When I think of meaningful work, I think of my uncle, my great uncle for whom I'm named, who had no kids of his own.

And I was essentially his adopted child slash grandchild.

He was a house painter, and he had 11 years of formal education because that's where the Rosen Wall School stopped, that he attended.

But we would drive around and he would show me houses and he would say, I painted that house.

- [Madeline] Pride.

- I painted that house, I hung paper in that house.

And eventually he would say, I own that house.

I rent that house.

The work that he did, which he was extremely proud of, that he put so much, invested, so much time and effort, and did very well, allowed him to do these other things.

So when we talk about meaning and things that give us purpose, that was what animated him up until literally the day he died.

- How do we tease out, so you almost touched on it, Pete, and I don't want to put it on you, but how do we tease out, you know, the very popular thing now is being socially responsible and nothing wrong with it because it's re-energized us toward things that need to have the light shine in it.

But how do we tease out social responsibility with what's really meaningful, as you all three have described to you personally, but what's meaningful to you and what becomes meaningful to your organization?

How do we tease out those two?

Start with you Pete.

- Well, I think it first starts out with having an intention, you know, and then following through.

- [Chris] Stated intention?

- A stated intention, a stated intention.

When I started our firm, our firm was meant to help our clients align their investments with their values.

And from there we developed a business plan and we brought people on.

We became a certified B corporation.

We are a 1% for the planet member.

We're doing those things that are the walking the walk, as opposed to just simply talking about it.

And I think, so you have to start with intention, and then you have to work from there.

- To my way of thinking, it's the chance to say, I may make money this way, but I'm not having adverse impact.

I think that oftentimes you think that, okay, the purpose here is a job and sales or products or whatever making the money.

But often times that we say, well, then we're not worried about the adverse impact.

And being socially responsible is a way of saying, yes, we are worried about the adverse impact, unintended consequences of our work do matter.

It is important that even if our primary purpose is serving customers and making money, that we're doing it in a way that does not adversely impact our community.

- And being aware of stakeholders, stakeholders is a really important aspect of that.

And understanding what each of your impacts are on all of your different stakeholders.

- I want to get back to the stakeholder that's gonna be part of it.

John, you know, a little bit about corporate policy talk and discussion and convening.

So what is the difference between being socially responsible and doing some meaningful work?

- I would pull back just to the next level to think about to what end?

To what end are we working?

We're working so we can get money.

Why do we want money?

We want money so that we can have the things that will make us happy.

And ultimately if we can focus on happiness, not as whether I'm not sad, but happiness as fulfillment.

If you have people in your organization who believe that they are fulfilled in the work that they do, then that's gonna pay dividends down the road beyond just goodwill and good feeling, increased attendance rates, so less employee absenteeism, less money that you'll spend on healthcare, greater retention overall.

All of these things, if you focus on what seems like a soft and squishy thing, which is fulfillment, happiness.

- And that's your story of your grandfather was that way.

- Yeah.

- Painting those homes.

Well, it may seem like just a job.

He found fulfillment in that.

And I think that often comes down to us as individuals being able to find fulfillment in what we're choosing to do.

- So is this, I'm not even sure how to say it, but is this wave of... Gen Zs, millennials saying that that's the way they want to go.

Is that about their age and where they are in their development?

Or is this a real thing that is going to be sustainable?

- It's as old as the Declaration of Independence.

- Exactly.

- Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and what Jefferson meant when he talked about happiness, was fulfillment.

It's happiness as Aristotle understood it, which you don't know until the end of your life.

And this is what has always animated us as Americans, we focus on life, we focus on liberty, we take positions on whether we agree with the right to life under certain circumstances or liberty under circumstances.

We don't talk about happiness.

We don't talk about happiness in the way that it really matters.

So I don't think this is a new phenomenon.

I don't think it's even news specifically.

I think it's really a group of folks who decided, especially in the wake of a pandemic, that they wanna do something different.

- Is that, are you happy?

Is that why you did a B corp?

- I think it was an extension of that.

Yeah.

I think that's where it came from.

I love going into work every day, I love what we do and- - [Chris] And explain a B corp for somebody that won't- - Certainly, certainly.

So a B corp, B stands for benefit.

So a certified B corporation, there's a third party called B Labs, and they actually take a look at how we do business.

They look at our systems and they break it down into stakeholders like we were talking about earlier.

They break it down into employees.

How do you treat your employees?

Do they have benefits, et cetera?

Are they being paid a living wage, looks at customers?

How do you treat your customers?

It looks at the environment.

What's your impact on the environment?

It looks at communities.

Are you involved in your communities?

And then finally it's governance.

How is your business model put together?

Is it built for social responsibility?

Is it built for environmental responsibility, et cetera.

And then you are measured on each one of those different metrics and then they give you a score.

And you know, if you score over a certain threshold, you become a B Corp.

If you don't, then you know exactly what you need to work on to attain being a B corp. And I'm really proud that we've been a six time best for the world certified B Corp, which means we score in the top tier for customers especially.

- Madeline, I'm thinking about your conversation with your dad.

Would he, could you have told him, dad, I wanna be happy in my work.

Was it about being happy?

Is it happiness to you?

Was that what this meaningful work means to you?

Is it about being happy at the end of the day when you go home?

- I think it's about feeling that your life made a difference.

I love that Emerson quote.

My mother just died and so we wrote that quote.

What is success?

You know?

Whether it's... A healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition.

And as you get to the latter half of your career, I think the impact and happiness isn't so much about your success, but about those you're able to help and lift up.

And that's what Together SC is so wonderful about so many people in the nonprofit field, whether they're professionals or volunteers who are giving and working towards their passion and the chance to help them do what they wanna achieve.

And that satisfaction that comes from helping others, I think is significantly, that warms myself.

- Do you think that's the difference, to go in another place?

So far we've had quote from Aristotle and quote from Emerson on this program, that's pretty impressive, you guys are doing great.

- It's only the holiday edition we don't do it all year long.

- So I'm under pressure now to come up with a good quote.

- You are.

- Actually, that wasn't Emerson.

I attributed to someone even earlier, but he gets the credit for it.

- And by the way, can't be Kanye or Ye, formally known as Kanye.

- Don't worry about that.

- We're not going on that road at all.

I completely lost my train of thought, John.

So, but the idea is, what is the difference, John, then should there even be, and this is really far out there, John, but I think you can handle it.

Why do we have non-profits and for-profits?

Why shouldn't there just be organizations that work profitably, but do it with the meaningful work.

- That's the B corp. - In some ways.

I think that is a recognition that there is less of a difference between these two kinds of organizations than we'd like to think.

And it also recognizes the fact that you can be working in what is typically considered to be a non-profit space, but doing activities that are generating wealth, that are creating opportunities that allow people to participate in the market.

It's not just do gooders over here and people who wanna make money over here.

- It's really simply a tax status in a way, a different way of governance that your board represents the community interest as opposed to shareholders.

- Which your good argument and that tax status and the way of doing it was made as a motivation to set those up so people would do something that wasn't as profitable, right?

- And to make it affordable.

- To make it affordable.

- Reduce the cost.

And there's this impression that if you're going to do business and do business for good, if you will, that you're not gonna make as much money.

And I would argue that you probably have opportunity to make more money because like you were saying earlier, you get better buy-in from your employees.

You're not worried about typically the next quarter, you're looking at the next three years, five years, 10 years.

And so you can put some real effort into creating an organization that is forward thinking, that is not just looking at quarterly profits, which is what we see so often right now in the stock market is, you know, we're looking, you know, not even what quarterly profits are, what is our weekly sales numbers?

And so I think that that really allows the opportunity to build a more... inclusive and again, forward thinking organization that is gonna stand the test of time.

- And that's based in purpose.

- Yes, exactly.

- I used to work for a health system and what would happen at the end of each quarter if that health system was running in the red, the mandate was drive revenue, not make people better, not improve the health of the population.

- Was it a for profit system or was it a non-profit?

- It was a non-profit.

- Yeah, well, okay.

- And in focusing on that as the purpose, you sort of lose sight as the overall goal.

One thing that traditional for-profits can learn from traditional non-profits is how do you center purpose at the heart of your business and make money.

Now Mark Cuban's doing something that's really interesting right now with this cost plus drug company that he's put together.

15% is what he's making in margin.

- [Chris] Not more than?

- Not more than and that's the cap.

He's got enough money where he can say, well, you know, that's all I need, that's all I wanna take out of this.

But it's an interesting model because it contemplates how much is enough when we're talking about this from a business context, that we know that we can go as high as revenue will take us, as our productivity will take us.

But how much is enough?

And if we get to enough, then what do we do?

It doesn't mean that you stop making money, it just means you think differently about what you do with the excess revenue that you're earning.

- There was a great book a few years back and they have a second edition now called "Firms of Endearment" and yeah, it's a great name.

- That's good name.

- But they focus on conscious capitalism.

They, took a look at Walmart versus Costco and those two models and Costco invests in their people and they pay them a living wage and they do a lot of training.

And so their turnover is very low relative to the Walmart slash Sam's Club model, which they're constantly having to train people.

They're constantly having to bring new people in.

So you, A. always have the new person, so you don't get great customer service, you're always trying to train somebody.

So your level of... productivity and I can't think of the right word, but it's different than somebody whose efficiency, all that stuff is different than you're gonna have from somebody who values their employees.

- But Costco's not afraid of a cost per employee because that's a more expensive model.

- That's a more expensive model.

- At least for your labor, right?

- Yeah.

- Okay.

But I, I'm getting off on it.

Let me come back to something you said, John, I wanna ask you Madeline, so the Cuban model of cost plus that's doing good.

Is doing good the same as meaningful work?

- I think so.

I mean, for me, meaningful work means I feel like I did good for others.

I'm not sure if, you know, I've spent so little time in the for-profit field.

I really think maybe if I've been in the B board, I could, so I'm not sure I have an answer to that.

And I don't wanna take us off that question, but I do wanna talk about the next generation coming in because I was reading something Tom Barkin from the Richmond Federal Reserve said about the workforce shortage that we've got, which is very real.

Very real.

And we knew it was coming, the baby boomers retiring.

- Thank you, that's a demographic issue.

- Yeah, it is a demographic.

We talk about it otherwise, but it's a demographic.

But we are also seeing that they do want meaningful work and I think part of what Tom was saying is the answer to both, to the shortage is increased productivity.

And one of the things I keep saying in the nonprofit field is we need less bookkeepers and more chief operating officers, but we need chief operating officers that don't have five people under 'em.

We need to find the ways with productivity and efficiency and software and all that, that one person doesn't have to act like a bookkeeper.

They can act like the bookkeeper and the chief operating officer.

They can do the strategic meaningful work, not the repetitive redundant work.

Because I think that's a big part of where we lose our entry level employees is we give them this repetitive redundant work over which they have little control and they don't feel satisfied from it.

- So is doing good the same?

- [John] No.

(Chris laughs) - You didn't even think twice about that.

- No.

It could be, but as I think about it, the danger with focusing on doing good is it becomes intoxicating.

I, you know, I've done my share, I don't have to worry about anything else.

I'm not really concerned about whether it's meaningful or not, but I've done my share, I've done good.

And that also means that I can then go and engage in all the other activities.

- Oh I hadn't thought of it that way.

- That will, excuse me.

- You're right about that.

- For the good that I've done.

- Excuse me.

- Yeah, I'll give a lot of money to make up for the- - I'm paying penance, yeah.

- Yeah.

I hadn't thought of it that way.

- So I think I see them as being very different and meaningful work can be meaningful to that person, but it may not be meaningful to a broader community and a broader population.

- But I-, I'm sorry.

- No, no, go ahead.

- I was gonna say, but I think for those people that are say, I want meaning in my work, I want meaning in my life, you start with what are your core values?

What is it that is gonna give you, ignite that passion in you and don't take the job for profit or non-profit, that is just the job that's first available.

You know, we run a career center and you know, we know, I look at how people go about looking for that first job, no cover letter, very little alignment, very little research on what that job is.

They just sort of send it out.

So to see what bites and that's not the way to plan a meaningful career.

- Yeah.

- You know, you really need to be deliberate about what your skills are, what your strengths are and I think that's where we as employers can be more helpful to folks coming in.

- Go ahead, Pete.

- And it's about finding the right job for the right person.

It's about making that match.

Because all too often, like you just said, people will take a job because they need a paycheck and sometimes that's an economic reality.

They just simply have to do that.

But if you're going to create the type of business or nonprofit, whatever it is that is gonna stand the test of time, you wanna have the right people in the right roles.

You don't wanna overload them because you can be doing good as a business but not have that meaning in that particular role because it's not fit for you.

- We've got less than five minutes left.

And I want to get to this question.

I'm not gonna ask it very eloquently, but I think you all are gonna know.

So John, this current state of naval gazing, not just that we're doing here, but as we have had time, and I'm not just talking about Gen Zs and millennials and those that want to, who am I?

What do I want to do?

Do you think it's sustainable?

Do you think it'll end when the next expansive economy begins?

Or do you think that it's here to stay and it's going to be deployable?

- There will always be people who will chase as much money as they can, as quickly as they can get it.

But I do think that there is a shift broadly, and even more specifically a shift where we sit, North Carolina and South Carolina, states that were built not on meaningful work.

Whether you're working on a farm or picking cotton or working in a textile mill, those workers were not expected to even be thoughtful about their work.

And if we are even having these conversations now in this geography, I think it's really important and I do think that it constitutes a shift because it means that we're asking more of our employers and we're also asking our employers to think differently about how they engage, not only with their population of employees, but the communities in which those employees live and work.

And I think that's important.

I don't think that's gonna be transitory at all.

- And there's so many benefits to that approach.

Right?

- Well you see that Madeline.

But again, do you think, same question.

Do you think that this current wave is going to sustain itself or do you think it's gonna collapse in on itself and there'll be a core of people that continue looking inward and am I happy and is it meaningful or is this a new renaissance?

- I think we have to ask, I mean certainly for those of us in midlife and beyond, it's like, okay, here's what I'm gonna do for my second or third career and absolutely pursuing more meaningful work is what we should be doing at that time in our life.

I think it really comes down to those just entering the workforce and the satisfaction they find or don't find in that pursuit of meaningful work.

And whether that is financially sustainable for them.

I mean, so many people are starting nonprofits, so many people are starting their own businesses.

All of the barriers, many of the barriers to entry for both of those have have been simplified.

And so it is more of a direction that young people can take.

And I think if they find that work meaningful and rewarding, they will continue that for the rest of their life.

If they don't find it meaningful and they can't make a living at it, they are not paid a meaningful wage with meaningful benefits, then they probably will have to fall back on.

I just gotta take the job that pays me the most money.

- [Chris] Yeah, Pete?

- You know, I'm thinking about this from a generational perspective, so it, it made me think of a story.

So we were at a brewery in Nashville and I know that's sort of, you know, I don't- (Chris and Pete talk at once) - It's possible, but we were at Highland Brewery and Highland was one of the first craft breweries in Asheville.

And I'm standing outside and I look down down the walkway and there's a guy sweeping the walkway.

And it's Oscar Wong, it's the founder, the guy who started it.

And what that tells me is that that's leadership.

Anybody who's in leadership should be willing to sweep the floors, should be willing to do any of the jobs or take over any of the responsibilities in the organization.

And I think that that's something that young people can look to.

If you've got a leader that's willing to do anything in the organization, that's something that's- And he sees that as meaningful, he sees that I want people who come to my brewery to see the attention to detail that we have.

That meaning is going to bubble up and it's- - And we're out of time.

I'm sorry.

I think they call it servant leadership and that seems to be more and more prevalent.

- Absolutely.

- And I'm hopeful for that.

So Pete, thanks.

Welcome to the program, please come back.

- Thank you so much.

- We weren't too hard on you, I think.

- No.

- But I didn't come up with a quote, so I feel bad about that.

- That's okay, you'll have a chance, redemption.

Madeline, thanks, it's nice to see you.

Sorry it's been so long.

John, good to have you back.

- Always, thank you.

- Thank you, and thank you for watching our program.

We hope you think a little bit more during the holidays.

Certainly, happy holidays and thank you for watching, Good night.

- Major funding for "Carolina Business Review" provided by High Point University, Martin Marietta, Colonial Life, The Duke Endowment, Sonoco, Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, and by viewers like you.

Thank you.

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