>> PRODUCTION FUNDING FOR "QED WITH DR. B" IS PROVIDED BY -- "AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER FOUNDATION."

BOUNDLESS ENERGY FOR BRIGHTER FUTURES.

AND BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> I'M DR. FREDERIC BERTLEY, IMMUNOLOGIST AND EDUCATOR.

SCIENCE IS EVERYWHERE AND FOR EVERYONE.

AND IT'S ALL AROUND US, SHAPING OUR LIVES EVERY SINGLE DAY.

IN THIS SERIES, WE'LL LOOK AT CUTTING-EDGE RESEARCH, TALK TO THE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE CHARTING NEW FRONTIERS AND SOLVING TODAY'S PROBLEMS TO MAKE ALL OUR LIVES BETTER.

WHEN A SCIENTIST OR MATHEMATICIAN DEMONSTRATES PROOF OF CONCEPT IN THEIR WORK, THEY OFTEN USE A TERM "QED."

QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM.

THAT ROUGHLY TRANSLATES TO QUITE EASILY DEMONSTRATED.

WELCOME TO "QED WITH DR.

B."

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>> IN THIS EPISODE, WE ARE DECODING VIRUSES.

BY NOW, YOU KNOW A FAMOUS ONE, SARS-COV-2.

AND YOU KNOW HOW DANGEROUS IT IS.

DECODING VIRUSES IS AN EXTRAORDINARY LESSON IN THE EXPLORATION OF THE VERY, VERY SMALL.

VIRUSES ARE SMALLER THAN PARASITES AND BACTERIA.

IN FACT, THEY ARE SO SMALL THAT ROUGHLY 500,000,000 VIRAL PARTICLES CAN ACTUALLY FIT ON THE HEAD OF A PIN.

HOW IS IT THAT SOMETHING SO TINY CAN HAVE SUCH A MASSIVE EFFECT ON ALL OF US?

TO GET SOME CLARITY ON THIS, I SPOKE WITH DR. BRIAN WARD.

DR. WARD IS A MEDICAL DOCTOR, SCIENTIST, AND PROFESSOR AT McGILL UNIVERSITY IN THE DIVISION OF EXPERIMENTAL MEDICINE.

DR. WARD, SUCH A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU ON QED.

I WANT TO START AROUND DEFINING SOME TERMS.

SO, CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THESE THINGS CALLED PAHTOGENS?

HOW MANY ARE THERE?

WHAT ARE THEY CALLED?

WHAT ARE THE TYPES?

>> TYPICALLY, PATHOGENS ARE DIVIDED INTO FOUR CLASSES.

THE SMALLEST BEING VIRUSES, BACTERIA, FUNGI, AND PARASITES.

>> ARE VIRUSES, LIKE, THE WORST OF THE WORST?

CAN YOU RANK THEM?

DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE IN THIS BIOLOGICAL CONTEXT?

>> THERE ARE SPECIES OF ALL OF THOSE GROUPS THAT I DON'T WANT.

I, MEAN, AMONG THE PARASITES, I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT MALARIA.

FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS, I DON'T WANT A TAPE WORM.

BUT IN TERMS OF OUTRIGHT LETHALITY, THERE ARE SOME VIRUSES THAT ARE CLEARLY AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

FOR EXAMPLE, RABIES IS THOUGHT TO BE 100% LETHAL.

>> SO LETS DRILL DOWN INTO VIRUSES.

HOW ARE THEY UNIQUE FROM THE OTHER PARASITES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?

>> SO MANY OF THE PARASITES AND THE FUNGI AND BACTERIA CAN LIVE BY THEMSELVES.

NO VIRUS CAN LIVE BY ITSELF.

IT HAS TO LIVE IN A CELL.

WHETHER IT'S A HUMAN, AN ANIMAL, OR A PLANT CELL, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> HOW DOES IT REPLICATE INSIDE OUR CELLS?

WHAT IS THAT PROCESS LOOK LIKE?

>> THEY INVADE THE CELL AND THEN THEY HIJACK THE CELL'S MACHINERY FOR MAKING BOTH THE PROTEINS AND THE OTHER THINGS THEY NEED TO LIVE, AS WELL AS MAKING COPIES OF THEMSELVES.

THEY BASICALLY MOVE INTO THE FACTORY THAT'S MAKING ALL THE THINGS THE CELL NEEDS, AND THEY USURP THE MACHINERY THEY WANT TO MAKE COPIES OF THEMSELVES.

I MEAN, WE'VE EVOLVED VERY SOPHISTICATED STRATEGIES FOR RECOGNZING WHEN A VIRUS IS IN A CELL.

AND WE, TYPICALLY, WHAT HAPPENS IS WE KILL THAT CELL.

IF A CELL HAS BECOME INFECTED WITH A VIRUS, WE KILL IT.

BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT THAT CELL BECOMING BASICALLY A VIRAL FACTORY, MAKING COPIES OF THE VIRUS.

>> YOU KNOW VIRUSES DON'T HAVE A BRAIN.

WHY IS IT THAT THEY REPLICATE?

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THEM THEY WANT TO MAKE SEVERAL COPIES OF THEMSELVES?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT RNA AND DNA WANTS TO DO, WHETHER IT IS IN A VIRUS OR IN A HUMAN BEING, IS TO MAKE MORE COPIES OF ITSELF.

WHEN YOU GET TO HUMAN BEINGS, THAT'S A FAIRLY COMPLEX PROCEDURE INVOLVING COURTSHIP AND VALENTINE'S DAY CARDS AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER THINGS.

BUT A VIRUS IS A STRIPPED DOWN LITTLE BIT OF RNA OR DNA.

AND JUST LIKE THE SELFISH GENE IN THE HUMAN BEING, IT HAS, FOR SOME REASON, A DRIVE TO MAKE COPIES OF ITSELF.

FOR SOME VIRUSES, THEY ARE SO SPECIALIZED THAT THEY ONLY LIVE IN ONE SPECIES.

SOME VIRUSES JUMP A SPECIES BARRIER.

>> WHAT ARE THE WAYS THAT SCIENTISTS ACTUALLY STUDY VIRUSES?

HOW DO YOU ALL DO THIS SAFELY WITH PEOPLE EXPERIMENTING IT AND STUDYING IT?

>> WELL, JUST AS THE VIRUSES ARE ENORMOUSLY VARIABLE IN HOW COMPLEX THEY ARE, THEY ALSO VARY ENORMOUSLY IN HOW DANGEROUS THEY ARE.

RIGHT, SO, THE COMMONG COLD VIRUS IS NOT SOMETHING ANYONE WORRIES ABOUT WORKING WITH.

BUT, ON THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM, YOU HAVE VIRUSES LIKE EBOLA AND LASSET FEVER, AND NOW THIS NEW CORONA VIRUS, THAT CAN KILL A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, THAT, IN FACT, A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH VIRUSES HAVE SET UP A SCALE OF HOW DANGEROUS THE VIRUS IS.

AND IF IT'S NOT REALLY DANGEROUS, WE CALL IT A CLASS ONE.

AND IT GOES UP TO CLASS FOUR.

AND CLASS FOUR IS A VIRUS THAT WILL KILL MOST OF THE PEOPLE IT INFECTS AND CAN SPREAD FROM PERSON TO PERSON.

>> HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THESE LEVEL FOUR ONES IF THEY'RE THAT DANGEROUS?

>> WE HAVE TO STUDY THEM VERY CAREFULLY.

ONCE YOU GOT PAST WHAT'S CALLED BIO SAFETY LEVEL TWO, AND THAT WOULD BE THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, MEASELS, WHERE WE HAVE A GOOD VACCINE, SO WE CAN BE PROTECTED AGAINST WORKING WITH MEASELS.

BUT IF YOU GO TO SOMETHING LIKE THE COVID VIRUS, YOU NEED TO WORK IN A BSL THREE LEVEL ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU SEE PEOPLE PUTTING ON THOSE SUITS AND DISINFECTING WHEN THEY COME OUT AND BEING EXTREMELY CAREFUL, WEARING RESPIRATORS.

AND YOU NEED SPECIAL TRAINING TO WORK IN THOSE EVIRONMENTS.

AND LEVEL FOUR IS EVEN HIGHER, WHERE YOU REALLY ARE DISINFECTED.

YOU'RE SPRAYED DOWN AS YOU COME OUT.

>> I APPRECIATE YOU AND ALL OF YOUR COLLEAGUES WHO ARE WILLING TO GO THAT B-3 AND B-4 LEVEL TO DO THIS RESEARCH TO HELP US.

AND THANK YOU FOR BEING ON "QED WITH DR.

B."

>> THANKS FOR INVITING ME.

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>> WE NOW KNOW THAT VIRUSES CAN HIJACK THE MACHINERY OF A PLANT, ANIMAL, OR EVEN A BACTERIAL CELL, AND SET UP A FACTORY WHERE THEY CONTINUOUSLY REPLICATE.

BUT DID YOU NOTICE THAT DR. WARD MENTIONED, LIKE SARS-COV-2 CAN SOMETIMES JUMP SPECIES?

VIRUSES NOT ONLY TRANSMIT FROM PERSON TO PERSON, OR ANIMAL TO ANIMAL, THEY CAN EVEN SOMETIMES CROSS OVER FROM ANIMALS TO HUMANS.

WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM DR. LINDA SAIF, A DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF VETERINARY SCIENCE AT OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY.

SHE STUDIES THE WAYS VIRUSES CAN JUMP FROM SPECIES TO SPECIES.

>> SO WE'VE HEARD THAT VIRUSES CAN JUMP FROM ANIMALS TO HUMANS.

WHAT'S THE SCIENCE BEHIND THAT?

>> SO, ONE OF THE FIRST EVENTS THAT HAS TO OCCUR, THERE HAS TO BE CLOSE CONTACT BETWEEN THE ANIMAL AND THE HUMAN, IN ORDER TO HAVE EXPOSURE.

OR IT CAN BE THROUGH ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION, AS WELL, IF THERE'S A HIGH DOSE.

SO, THEN TO INFECT FROM THE ANIMAL TO THE HUMAN, WHICH IS, BY THE WAY, CALLED ZOONOSIS, WHEN IT TRANSMITS FROM AN ANIMAL TO A HUMAN, THE DISEASES OR THE INFECTION.

SO, YOU NEED TO HAVE THE RECEPTOR ON THE HOST CELL THAT THE VIRUS FROM THE ANIMAL CAN ATTACH TO.

AND IF THAT RECEPTOR ON THE HUMAN HOST CELL IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE ONE ON THE ANIMAL CELL, IT MAKES IT MUCHE EASIER FOR THE VIRUS TO INFECT A NEW HOST, SUCH AS HUMANS.

AND WE KNOW AN EXAMPLE IS THE H-2 RECEPTOR THAT'S USED BY THE SARS CORONA VIRUS TWO TO INFECT HUMANS.

SO THE EXAMPLE WOULD BE LIKE A LOCK AND KEY MODEL, WHERE THE VIRUS HAS ESSENTIALLY THE KEY ON IT'S SURFACE.

AND IT INTERACTS OR DOCKS INTO THIS RECEPTOR ON THE HOST CELL.

AND IF THE KEY FITS, IT CAN ENTER THE HOST CELL AND INFECT THE CELL.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE ONLY STEP.

THE VIRUS HAS TO, NEXT, BLOCK THE INNATE IMMUNE RESPONSE OF THE HOST SO THAT, ESSENTIALLY, IT CAN REPLICATE BEFORE THE IMMUNE RESPONSE KNOCKS IT OUT.

AND THEN IT HAS TO GO THROUGH IT'S ENTIRE REPLICATION SYSTEM IN THE CELL.

ALL OF THE STEPS AND REPRODUCING ITSELF WITHIN THE CELL.

THEN, IT HAS TO EXIT -- BE ABLE TO EXIT THE CELL.

AND THEN, IT HAS TO BE SHED IN A HIGH ENOUGH NUMBER TO BE ABLE TO INFECT ADDITIONAL CELLS IN THE NEW HOST.

AND IF IT'S NOT SHED IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS, THEN IT'S LIKE IT DEAD END OR ABORTED INFECTION, SO THAT IT WON'T BE ABLE TO FULLY REPLICATE IN THE NEW HOST.

>> SO HOW COMMON IS IT FOR VIRUSES TO JUMP FROM SPECIES TO SPECIES?

OR EVEN HOW EASY IS IT?

>> SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE VIRUS AND ALSO THE HOST SPECIES.

WE CAN USE THE EXAMPLE FROM THE CORONA VIRUSES.

BUT ANOTHER VIRUS THAT WE KNOW HAS A PROBINCITY TO JUMP FROM ANIMALS TO HUMANS IS INFLUENZA VIRUS.

THEY CAN JUMP FROM EITHER POULTRY, AVIAN SPECIES, OR PIGS TO HUMANS.

AND INFLUENZA AND CORONA VIRUSES ARE RNA VIRUSES.

SO THEY DON'T HAVE THE NORMAL PROOFREADING MECHANISM LIKE DNA VIRUSES.

SO, WHEN THERE'S A MISTAKE MADE EVERY TIME THEY REPLICATE, THEY DON'T HAVE A WAY IN THEIR GENOME TO CORRECT THAT MISTAKE IN THE RNA CODE.

SO, THAT MEANS THAT EVERY TIME THE VIRUS REPLICATES, THERE ARE ERRORS AND THOSE ARE MUTATIONS.

THEY CAN ALSO, IF TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF CORONA VIRUS INFECT A CELL, JUST LIKE TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF INFLUENZA VIRUSES, THEY CAN RECOMBINE AND MAKE A NEW VIRUS.

SO YOU HAVE BOTH MUTATIONS IN RECOMBINATION, AND THIS LEADS TO NEW STRAINS OF VIRUSES AND SOME OF THOSE VIRUSES, THEY ARE GONNA BE BETTER FIT TO INFECT A NEW HOST SPECIES.

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>> WE'VE DETERMINED VIRUSES HAVE AN ASTOUNDING AND TERRIFYING ABILITY TO REPRODUCE WITHIN AND ACROSS SPECIES.

BUT WE HAVE SOMETHING VIRUSES DON'T HAVE, THERAPEUTICS.

MEDICATIONS THAT HELP US GET WELL IF WE'RE INFECTED.

AND EVEN BETTER THAN THAT, WE HAVE VACCINES THAT CAN PROTECT US FROM GETTING INFECTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I SAT DOWN WITH DR. PAUL OFFIT TO LEARN MORE.

DR. OFFIT IS A PEDIATRICIAN WHO SPECIALIZES IN INFECTIOS DISEASES, NEUROLOGY, AND VACCINE DEVELOPMENT.

HE'S ALSO ON THE FDA COMMITTEE, WHICH IS CHARGED WITH ASSESSING CORONA VIRUS VACCINES.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT DEVELOPING A VACCINE?

THEN, THEY TALK ABOUT THESE PHASES, WHAT ARE THE PHASES?

WHAT DO THEY MEAN?

>> OKAY, WE'LL START FROM THE BEGINNING.

LETS SUPPOSE YOU THINK THAT YOU WANT TO MAKE MESSENGER RNA VACCINE.

THE MESSENGER RNA IS JUST A LITTLE PIECE OF GENETIC MATERIAL THAT IS THE CODE FOR HOW TO MAKE PROTEINS.

WE ALL MAKE MESSENGER RNA IN OUR BODIES BECAUSE WE ALL MAKE PROTEINS IN EVERY CELL OF OUR BODY.

SO, LETS SUPPOSE THAT'S YOUR IDEA.

SO, I'M GONNA TAKE MESSENGER RNA AND I'M GONNA INJECT IT INTO CELLS, AND THEN HOPEFULLY, THAT MESSENGER RNA WILL BE TRANSLATED SAR-COV-2 SPIKE PROTEIN, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT ANTIBODIES DIRECTED AGAINST THAT PROTEIN CAN, IN THEORY, PROTECT AGAINST TRANSMISSION, BECAUSE IT WILL ATTACK THE VIRUS FROM INFECTING CELLS.

BECAUSE NOW YOU HAVE YOUR IDEA, I WANT TO MAKE AN MRNA VACCINE.

THE FIRST THING YOU DO IS TRY AND CREATE AN ANIMAL MODEL FOR THE DISEASE.

SO, WHETHER IT'S MICE OR MONKEYS OR FERRETS OR HAMSTERS, YOU INNOCULATE THE ANIMAL WITH THAT VIRUS THAT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN AND HOPEFULLY, THEY'LL GET THE SYMPTOMS THAT PEOPLE GET.

THEN, YOU TRY OUT YOUR VACCINE TO SEE IF IT WORKS TO PROTECT THE ANIMAL, AND WHAT PART OF THE IMMUNE RESPONSE IS GENERATED IN THAT ANIMAL SEEMS TO BE PROTECTING THEM.

THOSE ARE CALLED PROOF OF CONCEPT.

THEN YOU GO TO PEOPLE.

YOU DO PHASE ONE STUDIES, WHERE YOU TRY AND MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT DOSE THAT INDUCES THAT IMMUNE RESPONSE THAT YOU THINK IS PROTECTING FROM WHAT YOU LEARNED IN YOUR EXPERIMENTAL ANIMAL TRIAL STUDIES.

THEN YOU GO TO PHASE TWO, WHICH DOESN'T INVOLVE JUST 20 TO 100 PEOPLE, LIKE DOSE ONE, IT INVOLVES 100S OF PEOPLE TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS NOW VACCINE THAT YOU HAVE IS BEING GIVEN IN A SPECIFIC DOSE, IS CONSISTENTLY INDUCES THAT IMMUNE RESPONSE AND IS SAFE, DOESN'T CAUSE A COMMON SERIOUS SIDE EFFECT.

THEN, YOU GO TO PHASE THREE STUDIES TO PROVE THAT YOUR VACCINE WORKS.

YOU GIVE THE VACCINE TO TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND THEN YOU SEND THEM OUT INTO THE WORLD TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THOSE WHO GOT THE VACCINE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE PROTECTED AGAINST DISEASE THEN THOSE WHO WEREN'T.

>> LETS TALK SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE COVID-19 VACCINES AND PUBLIC PERCEPTION.

SO, CLEARLY, WE'VE NEVER DEVELOPED VACCINES THIS FAST.

SO I WANT YOU TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THE SPEED OF THE VACCINE AND HOW WE WERE ABLE TO COME UP WITH REALLY GOOD END STAGE CANDIDATES FOR THIS VACCINE.

>> HOW WERE WE ABLE TO DO IT SO QUICKLY?

THAT'S -- PREVIOUSLY, THE FASTEST VACCINE THAT WAS EVER DEVELOPED, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, WAS THE MUMPS VACCINE, WHICH TOOK ROUGHLY FOUR YEARS.

THE REASON IS, THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TOOK THE RISK OUT OF IT, THE VACCINE.

WHAT THEY DID WAS THEY PUT $24,000,000,000 INTO THIS PROGRAM AND SAID "OKAY, WE'LL PAY FOR PHASE THREE TRIALS," WHICH COST HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, "WE'LL PAY TO MASS PRODUCE THIS VACCINE WITHOUT KNOWING THAT WHETHER IT WORKS OR IT'S SAFE."

SO WE HAD THAT SORT OF OVERLAP.

I, MEAN, WHILE YOU WERE DOING THE PHASE THREE TRIALS, YOU WERE ALREADY MASS PRODUCING THE VACCINE.

NO COMPANY WOULD EVER TAKE THAT KIND OF RISK, BECAUSE WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS SAYING WAS "OKAY, WE'LL WAIT TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT IT WORKS, AND IS SAFE.

AND IF IT WORKS AND IS SAFE, THEN WE'LL PUT IT OUT THERE.

BUT IF IT DOESN'T WORK, OR IT'S NOT SAFE, OR BOTH, WE'RE GOING TO THROW AWAY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOSES."

THAT'S WHY IT'S SO FAST.

>> SO WHY IS IT SO HARD, THEN, TO DEVELOP A VACCINE?

AND WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW A DAYS, ARE THERE NEW TECHNIQUES AND TECHNOLOGIES THAT WE'RE LEARNING THAT WILL HELP US FOR VACCINES IN THE FUTURE?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW ARE THE SO CALLED GENETIC VACCINES.

IN THE PAST, WHAT YOU WOULD DO, IS YOU WOULD SAY TAKE A VIRUS, GROW IT UP, AND THEN DEACTIVATE IT WITH A CHEMICAL.

THAT'S THE WAY THAT WE MADE THE POLIO VACCINE, THE HEPATITIS A VACCINE, OR THE RABIES VACCINE.

WHOLE KILLED VIRUSES.

ANOTHER THING YOU COULD DO IS TAKE A VIRUS AND WEAKEN IT, SO THAT IT CAN REPRODUCE ITSELF IN YOUR BODY ENOUGH TO INDUCE IMMUNE RESPONSE, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO CAUSE DISEASE.

THIS SO CALLED LIVE ATTENUATED VIRAL VACCINE APPROACH.

THAT'S THE WAY WE MADE THE MEASLES VACCINE, THE MUMPS VACCINE, RUBELLA VACCINE, CHICKEN POX VACCINE.

OR YOU CAN REALLY USE SO CALLED RECOMBINANT DNA TECHNOLOGIES.

THIS IS RELATIVELY RECENT, JUST IN THE LAST, ROUGHLY, YOU KNOW, 20 OR 30 YEARS, WHERE YOU ACTUALLY JUST GIVE THAT ONE PROTEIN YOU'RE INTERESTED IN.

AND USUALLY, IT'S THE PROTEIN LIKE THE SARS-COV-2 PROTEIN, AND THIS IS ANOTHER STRATEGY THAT'S BEING USED TO MAKE THIS VACCINE.

YOU GIVE THE PERSON THE PROTEIN YOUR INTERESTED IN TO INDUCE IMMUNE RESPONSE.

THAT'S THE WAY WE MADE THE HEPATITIS B VACCINE.

THAT'S THE WAY WE MADE THE HUMAN PAPILLOMAVIRUS VACCINE.

IN EACH CASE, YOU'RE REALLY GIVING THE VIRUS OR PART OF THE VIRUS TO INDUCE IMMUNE RESPONSE.

WHAT'S SO DIFFERENT NOW WITH ALL OF THESE APPROACHES, OR SO CALLED VECTOR VIRUS APPROARCHES, OR MRNA APPROARCHES, OR DNA APPROACHES, WHAT YOU'RE REALLY GIVING THE PERSON IS YOU'RE GIVING THEM THE GENE, THE CODES FOR THA PROTEIN.

SO THEY, THEREFORE, MAKE THE, IN THIS CASE, THE CORONA VIRUS SPIKE PROTEIN, AND THEY MAKE ANTIBODIES OF THAT SPIKE PROTEIN.

THESE APPROACHES ARE NOVEL.

THERE'S VIRTUALLY NO OR VERY LIMITED COMMERCIAL EXPERIENCES WITH THE -- ANY OTHER PATHOGEN.

SO, SO YOU'RE RIGHT.

WHAT WE LEARNED FROM THIS, I MEAN, IF THE MRNA VACCINES ARE AS GOOD AS THEY LOOK, AND CERTAINLY, FROM THE TOP LINE DATA, PRESS RELEASE DATA, LOOKS GREAT, WE'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE A HUMAN IMMUNODEFIVIENCY VIRUS VACCINE AND AIDS VACCINE.

WE'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE A MALARIA VACCINE, OR BETTER TUBERCULOSIS VACCINCE.

WE'LL SEE.

I MEAN, IT IS EXCITING AND IT'S CERTAINLY OPENS UP A NEW FIELD.

>> SO HOW DO YOU, PERSONALLY, HELP PATIENTS, 'CAUSE YOU'RE A MEDICAL DOCTOR, AS WELL, WHICH IS GREAT.

SO YOU'VE GIVEN YOUR LIFE TO HEAL PEOPLE, AND TAKE CARE OF OUR LOVED ONES.

AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR THAT.

HOW DO YOU, PERSONALLY, HELP PATIENTS WITH THEIR CONCERNS AROUND VACCINES?

AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, WHERE SHOULD THE AVERAGE JOE AND JANE PERSON LOOK FOR CREDIBLE DATA TO HELP ASSUAGE THEIR VERY LEGITIMATE SKEPTICISMS AND QUESTIONS ON CERTAIN ISSUES?

>> I THINK WHEN PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT VACCINES, IT'S REASONABLE TO BE CONCERNED.

I THINK YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT ANYTHING YOU PUT INTO YOUR BODY, ESPECIALLY A BIOLOGICAL AGENT THAT'S BEING INJECTED INTO YOUR MUSCLE OR UNDER YOUR SKIN.

BUT THE FIRST THING YOU DO IS FIND WHAT'S THEIR PURPOSE.

INVARIABLY, THERE ARE DATA TO ADDRESS THAT CONCERN.

WE HAVE A WEBSITE AT VACCINE.CHOP.EDU WHICH IS PART OF OUR VACCINE EDUCATION, WHERE WE HAVE TRIED TO ANSWER EVERY QUESTION WE HAVE EVER BEEN ASKED ABOUT VACCINES.

AND THEN, WE HAVE A VACCINE SAFETY KIND OF REPOSITORY WHERE WITH EACH OF THOSE QUESTIONS, WE'LL HAVE A SERIES OF STUDIES WHICH WE CAN LINK TO, AND THEN WE HAVE LIKE A TWO TO THREE SENTENCE DESCRIPTION OF THAT.

YES, WE ARE TRYING TO ANSWER QUESTIONS PEOPLE HAVE.

AND IT'S NOT JUST OBVIOUSLY.

THE CDC, THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, THE MAYO CLINIC, THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT GROUPS OUT THERE THAT TRY AND PUT OUT GOOD, CREDIBLE, ACCURATE, UP TO DATE, SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION ABOUT VACCINES, TO ANSWER QUESTIONS PEOPLE HAVE.

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>> DESPITE THEIR SIZE, VIRUSES HAVE THE POWER TO CAUSE A GREAT DEAL OF DAMAGE AND DESTRUCTION IN THEIR HOSTS.

BUT WHAT IF THAT POWER WAS, IN FACT, CREATING A HEALTHY ECOSYSTEM?

WE SPOKE TO TWO EXPERTS WHO REMIND US THAT VIRUSES AREN'T ALL BAD.

IN FACT, SOME ARE DOING EXTRAORDINARY AND IMPORTANT WORK.

FIRST UP, DR. MATTHEW SULLIVAN, A PROFESSOR OR MICROBIOLOGY AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER OF MICROBIOLOGY SCIENCE AT THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY.

HE STUDIES THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN VIRUSES AND BACTERIA IN OUR OCEANS.

AND WE CHECKED IN WITH ONE OF DR. SULLIVAN'S COLLEAGUES, DR. CHRIS BOWLER.

HE'S THE CURRENT LEADER OF THE "TARA OCEANS FOUNDATION", WHICH DOES SCIENCE IN THE FIELD, OR RATHER, THE OCEAN.

SO, SO FAR, WE'VE DETERMINED THAT VIRUSES CAN BE INCREDIBLY HARMFUL TO HUMANS.

BUT YOUR RESEARCH ACTUALLY SAYS THAT THEY MAY BE BENEFICIAL TO HUMANS OR TO OUR ENVIRONMENT.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH?

>> I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THERE'S -- THERE'S ACTUALLY A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF VIRUSES ON THE PLANET.

THERE'S TEN TO THE 31 VIRUSES.

NOW, THAT'S A BIG NUMBER, SO LETS UNPACK IT.

IF YOU WERE TO PUT VIRUSES, WHICH OF COURSE, WE CANNOT SEE, END TO END, THEY WOULD STRETCH LIGHTYEARS AWAY FROM THIS PLANET.

AND WE TYPICALLY ONLY STUDY A FEW HUNDRED VIRUSES AND MEDICAL VIRALOGY.

YOU KNOW, COVID, OR HIV, OR EBOLA.

WE STUDY ONLY THESE VIURES BECAUSE THEY KILL HUMANS.

BUT ACTUALLY, IN YOUR BODY, YOU HAVE, FIRST OF ALL, MICROBES, IN ADDITION TO YOUR HUMAN CELLS.

THERE'S MORE MICROBIAL CELLS IN YOUR BODY THAN HUMAN CELLS.

AND THERE ARE VIRUSES WHICH INFECT THOSE MICROBES.

AND SO, IN YOUR BODY, MICROBES GET SICK, TOO.

AND SO, MY GROUP STUDIES VIRUES THAT INFECT MICROBES.

WHETHER THAT'S IN HUMANS, OR IN SOILS, OR IN OCEANS, IT TURNS OUT MICROBES ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TO US.

THEY HELP CAUSE DISEASE, THEY IMPACT THE WAY WE THINK.

IN SOILS, MICROBES IMPROVE PLANT HEALTH, OR THEY CAN KILL PLANTS.

AND IN THE OCEANS, MICROBES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR A LOT.

HALF THE OXYGEN YOU BREATHE COMES FROM THOSE MICROBES.

AND SO, MY GROUP STUDIES VIRUSES THAT INFECT THOSE MICROBES THROUGH ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTS.

>> WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT VIRUSES INFECTING BACTERIA.

CAN YOU UNPACK THAT A LITTLE BIT?

>> VIRUSES THAT INFECT BACTERIA, WE CALL A PHAGE.

VIRUSES WILL TAKE OUT A MICROBE THAT GROWS REALLY WELL AND BECOME ABUNDANT.

THEY WILL MOVE GENES AROUND FROM ONE MICROBE TO GET A NEW ONE, A NEW FEATURE OR TRAIT, AND THEY CAN ALSO REPROGRAM THEMSELVES DURING INFECTION SO THAT THE MICROBE NO LONGER ACTS LIKE ITSELF, BUT NOW ACTS LIKE A VIRUS FACTORY.

AND REMEMBER, ONE IN THREE OF THE CELLS IN THE OCEAN ARE INFECTED AT ANY GIVEN TIME.

>> IF I WERE TO JUMP INTO THE OCEAN AND START SWIMMING AROUND, WOULD THESE VIRUSES THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, WOULD THEY HARM ME?

>> NO.

SO IF YOU SWALLOWED A MOUTH FULL OF SEA WATER, THERE'S PROBABLY ABOUT 50,000,000 VIRUSES IN THERE.

WE DO KNOW THAT THESE VIRUSES ARE ACTIVE ON THE MICROBES IN THE OCEAN, BUT NOT ON YOU OR EVEN ON THE MICROBIAL CELLS IN YOU.

>> IF THEY DON'T HARM US, WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT THESE VIRUSES IN THE OCEAN?

>> WELL, THEY'RE A NATURAL PART OF THE WAY THE OCEAN WORKS.

THERE MIGHT -- THINK ABOUT FISHERIES.

WE GET FOOD FROM THE OCEANS.

HALF OF THE OXYGEN THAT YOUR BREATHE COMES FROM THESE OCEAN MICROBES.

WHAT WE BURN OFF INTO THE ATMOSPHERE FROM FOSSIL FUELS AND BURNING FORESTS, THAT CARBON DIOXIDE, WHICH IS CAUSING CLIMATE CHANGE IS BEING HALVED BY THE OCEANS.

AND WHEN THE OCEANS SOAK THAT CARBON DIOXIDE UP, IT BECOMES PART OF THE SYSTEM, PART OF THE NATURAL ECOSYSTEM.

AND VIRUSES, WE'RE LEARNING, ARE KEY INTEGRAL PARTS OF THAT OCEAN ECOSYSTEM.

EVERYTHING'S CONNECTED.

AND THAT CONNECTEDNESS INCLUDES VIRUSES.

>> DR. SULLIVAN, SPEAKING OF CONNECTEDNESS, ONE OF THE REALLY COOL THINGS ABOUT SCIENCE IS SCIENCE AND SCIENTISTS DON'T USUALLY WORK ALONE, USUALLY, ANYMORE IN THE 21st CENTURY, BUT INSTEAD IS GROUP OF COLLABORATORS WILLFULLY, NATIONALLY AND EVEN INTERNATIONALLY.

SO, I KNOW YOU'RE BASED OUT OF OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY, WORKING ON THIS MICROBIOME STUFF, I WANT TO BRING IN ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES, DR. CHRIS BOWLER, INTO THE CONVERSATION.

AND HE'S JOINING US FROM PARIS.

PROVE TO ME THAT YOU'RE IN PARIS.

>> YEAH, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE I'M IN PARIS, I'LL SHOW YOU THE VIEW FROM MY WINDOW, RIGHT NOW.

HOW ABOUT THAT?

>> OH, MY GOODNESS.

THAT'S THE LIT UP EIFFEL TOWER?

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE IN PARIS, FRANCE, AND YOU'RE CURRENTLY TAKING OVER THIS "TARA OCEANS PROJECT."

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT INTERESTING ENDEAVOR?

>> "TARA OCEANS" WAS BORN ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO.

AND THE IDEA WAS TO PERFORM A WORLD WIDE EXPEDITION, DOING SORT OF CUTTING EDGE OCEANOGRAPHIC RESEARCH BY BRINGING IN AS MANY OF THE TOOLS AS WE COULD FROM SORT OF BIOMEDICAL RESEARCH, LIKE GENOMICS, SEQUENCING DNA, LIKE MICROSCOPES TO SEE WHAT ORGANISMS ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE.

PLANKTON ARE A WHOLE COMMUNITY OF LIVING ORGANISMS THAT INCLUDE BACTERIA.

THEY INCLUDE SINGLE CELLED ORGANISMS LIKE ALGAE.

THEY REPRESENT 2/3 OF THE BIOMASS IN THE OCEAN.

THEY DO PHOTOSYNTHESIS IN THE OCEAN.

THEY GENERATE HALF OF THE OXYGEN WE BREATHE.

TOGETHER, WITH THE BACTERIA, WE ALSO HAVE OTHER ORGANISMS IN THE PLANKTONIC WORLD, THAT MAKE UP THIS LITTLE LIVING ECOSYSTEM AND ONE OF THE ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS WITHIN THE ECOSYSTEM ARE PERFORMED BY VIRUSES.

VIRUSES ARE THERE TO ENSURE MOVEMENT OF GENES AROUND THE ECOSYSTEM WHICH ALLOWS ORGANISMS TO ADAPT TO NEW CONDITIONS, TO ENSURE BALANCE IN THE ECOSYSTEM.

>> WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT YOUR WORK, YOUR EXPEDITIONS, AND WHAT MAKES IT UNIQUE IN THE SCIENTIFIC ENTERPRISE?

>> YOU KNOW, WE HEAR A LOT ON TELEVISION ABOUT GOING INTO OUTER SPACE AND ROCKETS INTO SPACE.

LEARNING NEW THINGS ABOUT THE SOLAR SYSTEM, ABOUT THE UNIVERSE, AND ALL OF THAT IS FANTASTIC, BUT SOMETIMES, IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S NOTHING LEFT TO DISCOVER ON PLANET EARTH.

THAT WE'VE DISCOVERED EVERYTHING ALREADY, BUT THAT'S NOT AT ALL TRUE.

THE OCEANS ARE INCREDIBLY UNEXPLORED.

PLACES ON OUR PLANET THAT MAKE UP FOR 70% OF THE SURFACE OF THE PLANET.

AND THERE'S ALL KINDS OF NEW THINGS TO DISCOVER ABOUT BIOLOGY AND ABOUT HOW OUR PLANET WORKS.

AND IT'S ALSO GREAT TO EXPLORE THE OCEANS ON SHIPS LIKE TARA.

BEING OUT IN THE OPEN OCEAN DOING OUR SCIENCE AND BEING AT THE MERCY OF THE OCEAN, SCIENCE SHOULD BE FUN.

THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT SCIENCE ON BOARD TARA IS.

IT'S A LOT OF FUN, A LOT OF EXCITEMENT.

>> WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT VIRUSES WITH EXPERTS IN THE FIELD, AND WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IS THAT VIRUSES ARE IMPRESSIVE ORGANISMS.

WE LEARNED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THERAPIES AND VACCINES, AND HOW THEY STAND READY TO NEUTRALIZE AND PREVENT A VIRUS INVASION.

AND, WE FOUND OUT THAT VIRUSES ACTUALLY PLAY A CRITICAL ROLE IN PROTECTING OUR OCEANS.

ALL THIS TO SAY, VIRUSES AREN'T GOOD OR BAD.

THEY'RE AN EXTRAORDINARY PART OF LIVING ON EARTH.

THE MORE WE KNOW, THE BETTER WE GET AT KEEPING SAFE AND STAYING HEALTHY.

AND THAT'S QUITE EASILY DEMONSTRATED.

"QED WITH DR.

B."

FIND US ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER, AND INSTAGRAM.

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