Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

White House history is often told through the stories of the best friends and closest confidants of American presidents.

Today, we'll discuss Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed.

Harry Truman and Eddie Jacobson.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Daisy Sutley.

Let's welcome my guests.

Presidential enthusiast Kathy Freese.

Welcome.

Well, thank you for having me again.

Thank you for suggesting this book.

I wasn't sure if I was going to like it.

And I learned so much.

I didn't really know about so many of these relations.

Me, too.

And it was it was fun to read.

Yes, it certainly was.

And, you know, he starts off with Madison and Jefferson and I kind of drifted.

Yeah, it is kind of boring.

It was a little boring, but they were good friends.

Leave it at that.

Yeah.

And then there were several stories that jumped out at me.

Did he use the same format for every story he told?

I was trying to look at that and think, Oh, are you talk about your background, how you meet your best friend.

And but their stories are all so different.

I mean, how they became friends, that people became friends and everything like that, that they were all so different that it it made it interesting.

It did make it interesting, particularly the one story that was so interesting was, well, before we talk about that, let's talk about what we're doing.

Yes.

Because I've got to get started on.

Yes.

We decided to do a picnic that FDR did for the king and queen of England when they came to visit the U.S., I think right before World War two.

So it would have been in the late thirties, I think.

It was at their home in Hyde Park.

In Hyde Park.

And they did a picnic.

A picnic?

And guess what?

I'm going to be making hotdogs.

I'm not making the hot dogs.

I'm making the heating them up and putting them in the buns.

And they had sausage.

I'm doing bratwurst, but then I'm also they also served cranberry sauce, which I thought was so interesting.

And I am making cranberry sauce from my husband's grandmother's recipe.

So it's the old fashioned way of doing it.

And then we're having.

What else?

Strawberries.

Strawberries and cream.

We're going to have ginger ale.

Ginger ale?

Yes.

Yes.

Because that was the drink that was fashionable at the time.

And I don't know if they added a little spicy things to it.

I don't know.

Or a little alcoholic beverages.

But we're going to have that.

And then you're doing something.

Well, the sausage.

Sausages.

Yes.

So we're going to have sort of like brats and then hot.

And serve and on silver because it's the king and queen.

Yes.

And the interesting thing was to repeat it through that particular story, somebody kept dropping.

They were the the waiters were.

So I'm not even calling valet because they weren't they were waiters.

They kept dropping dishes and trays of glasses.

And and the king even mentioned, well, that's number two now.

And and anyway, you know, Roosevelt would have had a good time no matter what.

Yes.

Yes.

And and Daisy was there.

Daisy was always there, which a lot of us, you know, but people didn't know how much a part of Roosevelt's life.

But anyway, I'm making the cranberry sauce and I've cooked it.

Just the fresh cranberries, just in water.

And then I'm putting it in.

And this old fashioned I don't know what you call it, it's like an upside.

It's like a calendar in a way.

And it's this is what they use to make apple sauce, any kind of sauce, you put this in there and then and then you've obviously use this a lot for cranberry sauce.

It's red.

And then you put it in here and you start moving it around and get.

It's a.

Style here.

Yeah, there's a.

And this the red is so gorgeous, the color here and it's steaming up my glasses.

And so I do this.

Yes.

Well, get rid of all the skin off the cranberries and then I put in a ton of sugar.

Right.

And it's really sweet, isn't it?

It's very.

And the English don't have cranberries.

They don't have the cranberry bogs.

And I think that this is a great choice to serve the king and queen here.

And, oh, it smells good.

I thought you were going to put all of that sugar in four cups.

I like.

Yeah, that's.

Well, when you do the whole I've had to pare down the recipe.

I had my husband do the math.

So that.

Of course zero sugar to make it you need a quarter cup and we're going to triple it.

Yes, we do that a lot to us on this program.

I'm just slicing strawberries because that would have been a nice thing to serve, probably on Shortcake, which is not my favorite dessert.

So I like fruit that either has triple sec on it or whipping cream.

And that's a safe bet for me.

I love it.

Well, another person who probably would like triple sec and all that, it was Franklin Pierce.

Oh, he was another one.

His his buddy, his his influence, sir, was Nathaniel Hawthorne, which.

Really surprised me.

I don't think I knew that that Hawthorne and Franklin Pierce were such they were friends since the in college at Bowdoin.

Yes.

In Maine.

Right.

And I found that really interesting.

And Pierce was so nice to Hawthorne and his family and Hawthorne was, you know, grateful and but he had a hard time.

Yeah, he had a hard time making ends meet.

And Pierce.

Hawthorne did.

Yes.

Pierce Well, there is a character he probably has been voted the worst president we ever had.

And then maybe Buchanan is near.

I'm not sure.

And maybe there will be some current ones that might make that.

What's interesting is both Pierce and Hawthorne were big union men and thought, keep the peace and don't.

They didn't want the union to suffer.

Oh, right.

And they didn't want to.

Sell out to the Southerners.

Yes.

They were northerners who kowtow to the to slavery.

And they and Pierce had no compunction about having somebody own somebody else as long as the union stayed together and ah, and actually I think by the end of his presidency he was just persona non grata and people just didn't even talk to him, he just did some really stupid things.

And.

And what the quote I liked in the book was Hawthorne's brother in law said, and I'm going to put I'm going to quote it here says And Hawthorne did a campaign pamphlet for Pierce.

Oh, yes.

And yet Hawthorne's brother in law said if he makes out Pierce to be a great man or a brave man, it will be the greatest work of fiction he ever wrote.

Well, that was it.

And they had they also had this motto we poked using talking about the president.

Oh, we poked him.

And now we're going to pierce, too.

That was the motto for that.

That particular, what you call it, election.

Election?

Yes.

And they he he did win, but he was miserable.

And he had his marriage was not a very happy one.

They were so different.

They were.

And she just didn't even want to be in D.C. She she wanted to be back in New Hampshire.

And he did drink a lot.

I mean, well, his.

Father owned a tavern in New Hampshire and from a very young age, did a lot of drinking, which was unfortunate.

And I almost know I'm going to do the.

Losing a pretty.

Man, apparently.

And not too much of a mess here.

Doesn't look like anything was spilled, though.

Now I put the tons of sugar in.

And this is really a nice sweet.

So it's going to be a nice sweet sauce.

Hardly a lump in it.

Okay, I'm.

I'm working on these strawberries.

Well, but solving the Hawthorne and Pierce were friends forever.

And Pierce put Hawthorne's son through college.

Yes, he took care of him.

Try it.

Because Hawthorne somehow couldn't figure out a way to make to make a living and to keep his family going.

And then they had so much they lost the children at home.

Oh, a. Horrible what.

Three boys and they lost all three.

Oh yeah.

And which sent his wife into a terrible depression which you can understand.

Now, I've got a story, you know, I look at all this sugar.

It's just nothing but shock.

Oh.

Oh.

So now we'll do this.

And then the next president was Lincoln and.

Right.

Joshua Speed.

I found that in.

I did.

Too.

I found that very interesting that Lincoln goes to Springfield and doesn't know a soul, walks on the Speed's grocery looking for you wanted to buy a bed but he didn't have any money and he asked Speed if he could pay him on time.

And Speed said, Oh, you can live with me.

And they ended up living together, sharing a bed for four years.

Yes.

And they knew each other so well he could read Lincoln's moods and his feelings.

And I had never realized that he was such a struck man.

He was just persecuted by depression.

Oh, yeah.

And he couldn't snap out of it and speed would take care of him.

And especially after he broke Lincoln, broke it off with Mary Todd.

He was.

Speed.

They took away all everything sharp and all that.

They thought he thought Lincoln was going to take his life.

And that was so interesting, too.

You know, we are in the midst of speed and Lincoln.

We're going to also talk about Roosevelt and Suckley and we can talk about Clinton and Vernon Jordan.

You probably heard about that relationship.

Yep.

We're going to take a little break to set up for our next segment.

So and in the meantime, we want to have you look at the menu, the recipe, and look at that.

Now.

It's gorgeous.

Now I'm going to put it in the refrigerator.

And you hope that it will set.

That up.

But if it doesn't set up, it'll still taste.

Good, right?

Okay.

We'll see you in just a few minutes.

We'll be right back.

And we're back.

And we're going to continue to talk about Lincoln and his friend Speed and continue our preparations for the king and queen with our brats and our hotdogs and our cranberry sauce and some whipping cream and strawberries and ginger ale.

What a picnic.

Now I'm putting the sausage in while they're broths.

Really?

But they wouldn't have had these ready made ones.

But that's what we're doing.

And these mine.

My hot dogs are Oscar Mayer.

And you grew up with his his son.

Grandsons.

Grandson.

Yes.

In Chicago.

So you see this continues on and continues on.

And so and I'm going to use some just some whipping cream.

I'm whipping some of it.

But I think I love strawberries, which is the liquid form of whipped cream.

I just think it's wonderful.

And let's see, you're going to.

I'm doing the sausage.

And you're set.

Your cranberry sauce and setting up, hopefully.

But what I found interesting about Speed and Lincoln was that they were Whigs initially.

And then when the Whig party fell apart, Lincoln went to the Republicans and Speed did not.

And Speed became a slave owner.

Yes.

Is Speed married and Speed always felt that Lincoln never would have married, except that he saw how happy Speed was in his marriage.

Yes.

And so he thought, oh, that's okay.

And the other thing is, they.

Were in trepidation getting married.

These two.

Yeah, they weren't.

They're going to be good husbands and the first night they everything bothered them.

And so he sees Speed.

Like you say, he's influenced by his happiness.

Right.

So Lincoln gets engaged.

She goes back to Mary Todd.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing is Speed did not vote for Lincoln in the 1860.

Election difference was basically Southerner.

He was from Kentucky.

But then after Lincoln became president and the Civil War started, Speed helped Lincoln in Kentucky, too.

Yes Kentucky neutral and not go to the south.

So that was a real that was a real friend.

To do that.

To do.

That.

Yes.

And he could have influence in in the state.

It was Kentucky, wasn't it?

Yes.

And he helped get rifles to the union people.

I mean.

So he was a true friend to Lincoln friend.

It really was.

Now, they did have some disputes and they didn't speak, I think one period of.

Like almost a decade.

Yes.

But they ended up.

They.

Were.

Being friends again and seeing each other.

And it it just was amazing.

I don't think Lincoln would have made it through his mourning and then he loses two of his sons.

And Speed is there to keep, you know, to talk to him.

But he, like you say, Speed had slaves.

And then the other there is also the in the book Wilson and Colonel House and I question the writer putting Wilson and House in there because I think the house was out for himself.

I think he was.

And was not really a true friend like his other friends who had been long term friends.

House didn't even get to know Wilson until Wilson was running for governor of.

New Jersey, and he did a lot of things behind his back after World War One.

He decides he's going to write up the peace treaty.

This is House.

And of course, Wilson's lost his wife in.

This man was just he was absolutely awful.

He was felled by this.

And until he found another Wilson liked the ladies.

Liked, he found, Edith Galt And then she meets House and she says, there's something not quite right about him.

But Wilson says, Oh, will you get to know you Will they love him like I do?

And I never figured out.

I think it's because the House just took over and did his job and Wilson didn't really want to be.

Yeah, well, Wilson and House did the same views on everything, but I don't think either comes off very well in this book.

I think the writer really didn't like either one.

But I like.

This about Wilson, that.

Wilson was very rigid.

Yes, it was his way.

He didn't believe in negotiating.

They wanted to be his way or the highway.

And that's how he lost his position at Princeton.

I'm not saying that's exactly the reason, but he was voted out and this House worked behind his back.

He didn't want any credit, but he was working to take over positions that didn't even exist.

He became secretary of state and he was secretary of defense and he was this and that.

They didn't have those positions, but he created this and became so indispensable to Wilson.

Wilson just let him continue on.

And then the Treaty of Versailles, that was sort of like the beginning, the end of their relationship.

And then the next one, which I found very interesting, was Truman and Eddie Jacobson, who had served in the Army together in World War One.

And they knew each other before that, I think, and then were in the same company or something.

And then they are the ones who started the haberdashery in together.

That's right.

Yes, they had a.

Lot of Missouri.

But Jacobson and Truman remained very good friends throughout.

And it was Jacobson who convinced Truman to recognize Israel against the advice of George Marshall, Truman's secretary of state.

And and Marshall is very angry.

Which I can understand why Marshall would be angry.

And it was the Israeli I can't think of his name now who convinced Jacobson to go to Truman and try to tell him to visit Ben-Gurion?

No, no.

Oh, gosh.

Weizman, why?

Oh, okay.

Well, it was fascinating.

And you know, and we've just seen specials on the Holocaust and it did show the anti-Semitism of some of our leaders.

They just were not interested in recognizing Israel but Jacobson.

And his Truman to do it.

He did and.

I bet very few people I mean, that probably wasn't publicized.

Probably much.

But we were the first country to recognize Israel.

Yeah, and.

It created a lot of problems too.

And George Marshall could see that, that it was going to create a lot of problems.

And then there's FDR and.

Daisy Suckley oh they're cousins Distant cousins.

And they loved to spend time together.

She was see that some of the most important tables with him.

I don't think there was a romance.

No, no.

But I think she was one of those who I think FDR needed somebody to listen to him, to think he was wonderful.

Yes.

Because Eleanor was off doing her.

own thing.

And Eleanor was, you on him to do all this stuff.

Whereas Daisy just listened and they wrote letters they found after Daisy died.

They found all these letters in a suitcase under her bed at the end and FDR letters to her, and found out a lot more about FDR by reading those.

And she was at this dinner with the king and queen.

That's right.

So she she pops in and out.

You know, she's there and she goes on some of the trips on his boat to meet people.

She was the fly on the wall, wasn't she?

She never you know, she was very quiet, just was there to support.

And and her beautiful house just is down the way from Hyde Park and Will, there's Wellerstein and you've been there.

We were there in 2001 when they just opened it because she died in 1992.

She was almost 101.

Her in her mid nineties, I can't remember.

But she was she was healthy, she was strong.

She remembered almost like that.

Her house smelled of cigaret smoke.

Oh and that was very that was very common wasn't it.

It was the thing to do.

Yeah.

But we knew FDR needed somebody like that unquestioning and just to be a sounding board.

Hey, we all do, don't we?

Yeah.

And then the next one is JFK.

JFK and the Englishman.

David Ormsby-Gore, that they'd known since before the war, World War Two.

And he ends up proposing thing to Jackie.

After Kennedy dies.

Yes, but she says no.

And I was kind of surprised she preferred Aristotle Onassis.

So and that was interesting that at that Gore was around during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he gave advice.

You would want somebody to give you advice.

Oh, my.

Gosh.

But what if that was the wrong advice?

I mean, these people when.

He was the ambassador, English to the British ambassador to the U.S. and then the other then we have Nixon and Bebe Rebozo Oh, yes.

Gosh, that was.

That was interesting.

They basically didn't really talk.

They just drank together and.

Kept each other, kept.

Each other company.

And Nixon would visit Rebozo down in Florida.

And and I don't know how he got along with Pat, but Pat and Richard Nixon really didn't get along.

And I think he liked having somebody quiet who was there just to kind of.

Rebozo never asked anything of Nixon and these that's one of these things these first friends, they don't they don't ask for favors.

Right?

Well, they usually wealthy enough.

It doesn't matter.

And that's a good thing to do, too.

We're going to have continued to finish our prep for the American English picnic.

How are your brats.

Are finished.

And I wonder, did I bring.

Yeah I just put them right there.

Yeah.

So we're going to set up set up our picnic table and keep whipping these by hand here to see how I like this.

And then we'll invite you to our American picnic and and Roosevelt will be there.

And Daisy Suckley and the king and queen.

So you come along with us.

All right.

We'll be right back.

Our book, First Friends by Gary Ginsberg and my guest, of course, is Kathy Freese.

And let's talk about our food just kind of quickly here.

Look what you made that set up.

The cranberry sauce, the old fashioned way of making it.

And yes, sugar.

And then we have some hot dogs and brats.

This is for the picnic the FDR and FDR gave for the King and Queen of England.

So hot dogs with the sauces, some potato salad and strawberries with cream.

And of course, this must.

Have ginger ale.

Must have just come out about that time.

Ginger ale.

And that's good.

It was a very.

Yes.

Presidents to the presidents is right.

You know, I like this book, but it makes me wonder, can you learn to be a leader?

Can you model yourself on someone or are you a born leader?

What do you think?

I think there is an innate there is an innate ability to be a leader.

But now maybe people can learn somewhat.

But if you don't have that innate ability, I don't think you ever become a great leader.

A great.

Leader.

A great leader.

Yes, you could lead maybe a small group, but yes, somebody that inspires.

Yeah.

Leads.

And it has to be a certain fire in that person.

Right.

Like Truman.

I mean, I think he started becoming leader when he was in the Army in World War One and in charge of a company that and that.

That helped.

Him.

Yes.

But to sit down and say now to the I'm going to be forceful and I am going to have a vision and I'm going to have everybody follow me.

It didn't help Wilson at all.

Didn't know he was not able to leader.

He was.

Yeah, but really, I thought this book was an easy read.

It was.

If you don't know much about the presidents, you'll learn a lot about them.

But I found it fascinating that he did get the idea of looking at presidents friends, because that's something that we don't.

We.

Yes.

And we are influenced by our friends, even in our own modest lives we're influenced.

And so I do want to thank you for joining us, Kathy.

Thank you.

I enjoyed being here again and I love hot dogs.

So I thought this was the perfect for me.

So good food, good friends, good books make for a great life.

We'll see you next time.

Thank you.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice.

Martin and her love of good food and good friends.