Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

Flamer is the story of Aiden Navarro, a pretty normal kid who feels anything but normal as he tries to understand who he is and where he fits over the summer between middle and high school.

He's looking forward to a bit of peace at Boy Scout summer camp, where, as Aiden puts it, I understand how things work.

Even here, though, things go astray and Aiden experiences an emotional and spiritual crisis that leads him to consider suicide.

I'm Doug Farmwald, filling in this week for Gail Martin.

And joining me today is Mike Curato, author and illustrator of Flamer, which is this year's selection for the Saint Joseph County Public Library's one book, one Michiana.

Mike, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Hey, Doug.

Thanks for having me.

So we're going to get started and you're going to walk us through a Philippine cuisine.

Aiden in the book is is Filipino.

And you are as well.

I am.

Yeah, we're looking forward to that.

I want to kind of let you lead a little bit on the cooking.

But before we g et into that, I've got a couple of questions about the book and hopefully you don't mind if I start chopping a little bit while we do that.

Yeah.

So long as I can cry.

That's right.

That's right.

This is a really powerful book and I'm not sure I'm the demographic you were going for, but I've really found a lot of things to relate to it.

What led you to bring Aiden to life?

Well, you know, Aiden story is very much parallel with my own experience as a teenager.

So while it's a work of fiction, it's kind of semi-autobiographical.

And I wanted to write a book for people who are like me, who are young folks trying to figure things out, or maybe older folks, too, who are still figuring things out.

And do you think.

In large, large part the people are sort of tracking the message that you're trying to get out.

I think for the most part, yes.

Yeah.

I've had some really great feedback from teens and adults.

Yeah.

Now, most of your earlier work is is beginning readers or even lap books.

I wish I'd had some of those when my kids were that little.

One of the main characters, Little Elliot, who is the sweetest little polka dot elephant and his friend Mouse.

When I read through these, I see a lot of similar between Aiden and little Elliot.

Is.

Does that track with you or am I just reading into things?

I mean, it makes sense because I feel like Little Eliot is very much based on my inner child.

And Aiden is kind of what I like to think of as a braver version of my teenage self.

So, yeah.

So that yeah, it's, you know, it's always from from your point of view.

Right.

Now, why a graphic novel with the children's books?

Obviously, it's picture books as much as anything else.

But what led you to choose a graphic novel?

I think the most important thing for me is that I was a huge comic book nerd when I was growing up, so I wanted to present this story in a way that I know I would have wanted to read it when I was a teenager.

Okay, so let's go ahead and get started cooking.

Yeah.

And you tell us just a little bit what you're doing.

I'm going to keep working over here.

Yeah, sure.

We're going to start out today with a traditional Filipino dish.

It's called chicken adobo.

And there are a lot of different ways to make chicken adobo.

It's different than Mexican adobo.

I was going to ask that.

Yeah.

Chicken adobo at a Mexican restaurant.

Yeah.

Usually the Filipino adobo is vinegar based, and it almost always has soy sauce as well.

But there are lots of variations.

So today we're making a coconut milk version.

Yeah.

So what do we need to do?

Well, we'll get our.

Our heat going here, and that's the wrong burner.

I'm always doing that at my home kitchen.

So I just start I'm kind of a medium heat, and then I'm going to add two tablespoons of coconut oil.

Mm hmm.

And you're just going to let that melt if it's still solid and get a little shiny and coat the bottom of the pot.

And we've got some peppercorns and garlic and bay leaf that are going in there.

Yeah.

So I think there are about two teaspoons of whole peppercorns and one teaspoon of ground pepper.

And it's great.

They add these like pops of flavor while you're eating it and you're going to throw some garlic in here.

You can throw as much garlic as you want.

And if you notice, I.

Feel like it's hard to have.

Yeah.

So you're just going to leave that in there for a few minutes to get the garlic fragrant and toasty.

For a while?

That cooks up, you know?

Explain why you chose a graphic novel.

Are there other pros and cons to that format?

Um, I can't think of cons right now, but I know there are a lot of pros to a graphic novel.

It's such a such a cool medium because, you know, you've got the words and you've got the images.

So just like how picture books are so powerful for little kids, I think comic books, you know, they say, you know.

Comic books and graphic novels are getting more of acceptance.

I mean, you had a really breakthrough graphic novel with Mouse.

Yes.

Sort So I think legitimized the format before that.

It was always just, you know, Batman comic books.

Yeah, I love Batman comics.

It wasn't taking the serious literature.

Right.

I think with Mouse, it kind of broke that barrier.

And something like Flamer is clearly serious literature.

Yeah, I think that's the misconception, right, is that comics are always kind of superhero stuff, which was important to me as a teenager.

I think it's important to recognize that's very valid as well.

But but graphic novels, it's it's it's a medium, right?

So just like film and TV, it's like you can tell so many different stories.

We're back now with Aiden and Chicken.

You said it's semi-autobiographical.

How hard is it to put yourself out there like that for the public or is it empowering?

It's both, right.

I think anything that is, you know, close to your heart that you're putting out there.

You know, it's scary, right?

But at the same time, yeah, it it does feel empowering to be able to tell my story.

And some advice that my editor gave me is when you're telling a story, you know, there just has to be that element of truth to it.

And that's what's going to make it a good story.

So this is sort of my truth that I'm putting out there.

So.

Yeah, Well, and as I said, I'm probably not the demographic you were aiming for, but I found an awful lot to relate to in that book.

I was a scout leader for ten years, my sons where in scouts.

I in high school, was a comic book nerd, was a DND nerd.

Off to college.

I still DM Sometimes.

Yeah.

So a lot of that really resonated and that really helped me see things through another person's eyes.

Know I've.

I've been on one side of it and I think it's helped me see the other side.

So yeah.

Hopefully that's kind of what you were going for.

Yeah, I think the important thing about books, it's it's important for someone to see themself in a book.

So, you know, I made this book for, like I said, folks like me.

But I think it's important to be able to read a book about someone else's experience that you don't have so that you can kind of gain understanding and compassion for all different walks of life.

Which is which is why representation is so important in all media.

It's rare that we hear about it.

That often sounds like, well, some quota thing you.

Yeah.

All we have to do, we have to tell a female story.

It's a black story that tells Latino story.

And that's really not the case.

Yeah, it's not about quotas, but it's about understanding.

Yeah, totally.

And I just want to say, what do we put the chicken in skin down?

I'm using thighs and drumsticks.

I really like the the dark meat.

And I'm going to quick mix some sauce to go in there.

And then we'll get that cooking.

Down.

Yeah.

So how long did it take you to put Flamer together?

Well, it took years.

I mean, I started it in, uh, I had the idea maybe like 2010 or so and kind of fiddled around with the idea, like, on and off, and then I finally spill.

It.

Off.

Like, I finally sat down and wrote it in 2014 or 15 and then and then sold it.

So and then it had to sit on the back burner while I worked on other projects.

Before it just matured in the back of your head.

Yeah.

So it finally came out in 2020, in the fall.

Okay, so now let's get topics in a little bit.

Get what?

What's going in the sauce?

So I just put in a can of coconut milk.

I always use the full fat and you want all that flavor.

And we're doing half a cup of soy sauce and half a cup of vinegar.

I like to use rice vinegar for a little extra tang.

And that just gets mixed up and you pour that right over.

Yeah.

So just whisk that up.

And if you like, I can whip that up and pour it over while you can start on the Pancit.

Sure.

So, All right.

And tell us a little bit about what what actually is Pancit What is that?

So Pancit is like a noodle dish.

There's also, you know, soy sauce in there.

We love our soy sauce.

Oh, I like that sizzle.

Yeah, it's really gratifying, right?

Yeah.

And so that's going to come to boil and then you're just going to set it to, like, simmer for an hour.

I usually like to flip the meat halfway through.

Yeah.

And then we'll reduce the the sauce after that.

Okay.

Yeah.

So that's going to be cooking or we'll start on the Pancit.

Yeah.

So what do you need for that?

Well, I need one second.

It's always easier when no one's watching, isn't it?

It is, yeah.

Usually I'm just.

Just at home doing my thing.

Well, and while you get that ready, we are going to take a quick break and kind of reset here a little bit and let our chicken cook down a little bit.

While we do that, why don't you take a look at some of the illustrations from Flamer and get a feel for Mike's style as an illustrator?

Welcome back.

We're heard discussing this year's One Book, One Michiana selection Flamer with author and illustrator Mike Curato.

Thank you again for being here today.

And we are going to get into our next segment.

So the chicken adobo is cooking down.

I'm going to take care of that and let the sauce reduce.

You're going to start another dish.

Tell us about that.

Yeah.

Before that, I also want to mention I added some bay leaves and a little more water before that started simmering.

But now I'm going to make Pancit Bihon.

Pancit is a noodle dish, and there are also a lot of variations.

So yeah, first we're just going to throw some.

And then as always, all the recipes will be on the Dinner and A Book website, so you can certainly find them.

You don't have to write everything down as we're doing it.

Yeah.

Putting in some cooking oil and red onion, they're cooked out.

Of four chickens plated.

We're gonna let that sauce reduce.

Then while you cook up those vegetables, I'm going to start on some of the ingredients for dessert.

Great.

My favorite.

Yeah.

And talk a little bit about the book again.

One of the things I noticed about Aiden in the story is that institutions are important to him, the Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church.

And they're also the at the same time, kind of a source of strength and a source of belonging, but a source of stress.

So what what role do you see in Flamer for those sorts of institutions?

Yeah, I think I mean, I know for me personally, I got a lot out of, you know, my my scouting upbringing and I feel like I really came into my own, like it gave me a lot of tools to not just like survive in the wilderness, but kind of, you know, tackle life in a lot of ways.

And yeah, that's one thing that really struck me as I was a scout leader for ten years is my son's.

And you're right, it's not.

There are merit badges for all kinds of things.

Well, yes, we do a lot of camping.

There's all kinds of other things to do, too.

Yeah, for sure.

And, you know, I think with Aiden's Catholic upbringing, you know, he has a lot of faith and he's very devout, but he also runs into conflict, right, about how can I be all these different things?

And I think a lot of us run into that as human beings.

That's just intersectionality, right.

Of like.

Well, I think it must be especially troubling for Aiden in the book because, you know, both the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts are not inclusive for gays.

I well, for scouting, yeah, it becomes better.

It's getting better because, you know, on paper it's becoming more inclusive.

But I think there's still a lot of work to do.

And yeah, there was a church.

And they run into this this dichotomy where you got you really want to be part of it.

It's something that's important to you.

You know, Aiden's faith is important to him.

Scouts are important to him.

But the organization is saying you're not quite right.

Yeah.

And that.

It's a it's a tough thing to.

Well, especially as an adolescent, because I think at that stage we're all kind of trying to figure out who are we?

And when you have a source of identity, like, you know, like your church or like scouts or something, it tells you.

Not that identity.

Yeah.

That makes it really hard to be true.

To who?

To yourself?

Yeah, for sure.

And you know what's difficult for Aiden is he's thinking like, I think I might be gay, but also, I've been taught that that's something bad, and I'm not.

I don't want to be bad and I don't want to be a bad person.

So what do I do?

Yeah, Yeah.

And then another thing comes out.

At one point in the in the book, Aiden is thinking I might be gay.

And he goes, But, but gay is like other boys, I don't like boys.

They're mean the mean and they're gross.

Yeah.

And so I think you get you whether intentionally you kind of address the theme of toxic masculinity as well.

Yeah.

Because the reason those other boys are so mean is because they perceive Aiden as being different.

Not quite.

Right.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's a tale as old as time, right?

Like, there's something different and must be bad.

And there are a lot of people that are trying to fix Aiden in the book, right?

Because they see him as being different.

Um, which is unfortunate.

Yeah.

At one point one of the other boys, Mark even bullies them to the point provokes the to fight back and knock out a tooth.

Yep.

Which which conversely gets him a lot of respect.

Yeah.

The, you know he knocked the other guy down.

But Mark's motivation that he talks about as well.

I'm trying to help you out, man.

Yeah.

I'm trying to make you fit in more with us.

Yep.

And I think I think a lot of the issues that we have with that sort of toxic masculinity come with from people who don't quite know where they fit.

Because no one fits.

Exactly.

And they don't know how much leeway they have.

And so the only thing they do is sort of exaggerate that masculinity.

Yeah, I think, you know, young, young boys especially, they feel like they have to really prove their manhood right.

And so they will kind of act out.

And by the way, I'm just throwing these crystal noodles.

This this pan might be.

Just a little on the small side for them.

Yeah, but basically it's a liter of broth they put in here and we just kind of want to get these wet so that.

Little and they'll soak up some of that broth.

Yeah, they'll start.

They'll start loosening up here.

Okay.

And you'll follow on that theme, you know, proving your manhood.

One of the things that I know has been sort of an issue with the book is the language.

And and I think I think that's missing the point.

I think anyone who spent time around adolescent males understands that the using that coarse language is almost a rite of passage.

Yeah.

Again, it goes back to that proving I'm yeah, I'm the man, I'm a grown.

Up and I'm right.

I do what I want.

Yeah, I feel like I cursed more when I was a teen than I do as an adult.

And I think that's something that most people don't understand.

Yeah.

And that has led to language and as well as in defining a sexuality to a fair amount of censorship and some controversy around the book.

As an author, how does that affect you?

I mean, the first thing that really bothers me is just thinking about all the readers who I wrote this book for not being able to access it.

I mean, you know.

This is a book that's supposed to let people know like, hey, you're you're valuable.

You're worth being in this world regardless of whatever, you know.

And so that's that's the hardest thing for me, is thinking about I'm trying to help folks and others are trying to take that help away.

Yeah.

And then, you know, it's personally just it is difficult to navigate sometimes.

It's just more time away from other work that I could be working on.

And and also, you know, just people being unfriendly and saying awful things to you like that, you know, And no one wants that.

And I've read some headlines about different school boards that have objected to the book.

Have you had predominately good or bad feedback?

It's predominantly good, and I think there is a very vocal minority right now that.

Are challenging books, you know.

And that's that's reduced now.

Do you want to scape that.

scrape, that stuff up?

Yeah.

And I will put this over chicken coming towards the end of this segment.

What is the the most gratifying reaction you've had to the book so far?

I think for me, when teenagers tell me, like, wow, I've never read a book that I, you know, I see myself in so much.

That's really the best feeling for me.

So.

Well, go ahead.

Oh, and, you know, I've I've actually talked to adults, too, like people my age who are like, I've never had a book my whole life that I saw myself in until now.

So, you know, that really means something to me, too.

And that's not you know, that's not just the sexuality aspect of it.

That is, you know, the cultural aspect.

The ethnic aspect.

Yeah.

And I think that that is important.

I think that's one of the things that helped me relate to the book is I saw aspects of myself, you know, the comic book nerd, the DND nerd.

Yeah, I was.

I was there.

Yeah, I think it's a niche story, But, you know, the themes are universal enough that, you know, there's there's something for everyone in there.

Well, I think it was a really powerful book, and I really enjoyed it.

One of the things I like about One Book, One Michiana is it gets me to read books I might not have otherwise.

Does being one of them that you really, really enjoyed?

And one of the reviews I noticed never put it right at the top.

This book will save lives.

Is that an exaggeration or do you think that's pretty honest?

I think any book can save a life if someone reads it and knows that their life is valuable because of reading it.

And just and just knowing that, you know, you're not alone.

Someone else can understand.

Yeah, totally.

There was one panel in the but I really liked.

It's where Aiden finally realizes that I am enough.

Yeah.

And I think that's really the theme of the book.

Whoever you are, wherever you are, you are enough.

We're going to take one more break.

Come back with our final feast here and some dessert.

While we do that, let's take a look through Mike's complete bibliography.

Welcome back.

We're talking about Flamer this week on dinner and a book with author illustrator Mike Curato.

And our Chicken adobo is done as our Philippine feast crosses.

And Mike, you finished your other dish.

Pancit Bihon.

Which is sort of a fried noodles and vegetables.

That's You are putting together the best part.

Our dessert.

Yes.

This is a traditional Filipino dessert called Halo-Halo.

Again, lots of variations, but basically it's like sweet beans, fruit, all sorts of toppings, shaved ice.

So we're just going to throw a bunch of them in this Sunday cup here and we're going to throw some condensed milk on top of it.

Sweetened condensed milk.

And then you sent me a recipe earlier for some Ube ice cream, and I made that up ahead of time yet.

So hopefully I did okay.

Yeah, it looks great.

I love that.

Ube is like a purple yam.

But with a sweetness.

With a sweetness.

And I know, like for Western folk who aren't used to beans and your dessert, it sounds weird, but, like, just trust me, it's really good stuff.

This is Ube Ayala, which is like a and Ube jam with coconut.

Yes.

Yeah, sometimes it was coconut.

And we're going to throw this condensed milk on top here.

And then the ice cream goes on.

Top and we are just about ready.

All right.

There you go.

Well, as I say, I'm going to have dessert first.

Yes.

As well as we do.

I want to thank Mike Curato for joining us today.

Thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure having you on the show today.

Thank you, Gail Martin, for letting me stand-in today and most especially thanks.

Saint Joseph County Public Library for One Book One Michiana and this year's selection Flamer.

Good food, good friends, good books make for a good life.

See you next time.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and the Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.