Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

In reading the classical Greek and Roman moral philosophers who inspired the American founders.

The author, Jeffrey Rosen, shows us how they understood the pursuit of happiness as a quest for being good, not for feeling good.

What did happiness mean in the 1700s?

What does happiness mean today?

Are we talking about the same thing?

Let's meet my guest, Bill Firstenberger to explore this idea more deeply.

Hey, welcome.

Welcome.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah.

Thrilled to be here.

It's so good to have you and to explore this idea about happiness.

Yes.

Yeah, it is.

It's always very timely thing to sort of just reflect on.

Right, right.

And in my reaction to this book was, first of all, I read books for two reasons.

I read some purely for pleasure just because I want to be happy.

Yes.

And the other, other books I read, because I think it's important, to read them in This Falls into that second category.

But, you know, as you read it first, you kind of get muddled if you know.

But don't give up.

There are so many good ideas in there, and we find out about these founding fathers.

And, you know, as time goes on, I find myself questioning some of their ideas.

Sure.

And as I get older, I'm saying, how did these guys get away with saying one thing and living a different way?

The book forces us to to confront those inconsistencies where they were.

Yeah.

And and think about, you know, what does it mean today?

And are we still inconsistent at times or how do we strive to be more consistent?

And I would have never read this book had it not been for the fact that Jeffrey Rosen came to our community, because of the Elkhart Owls.

And, I got an invite to that.

And it's amazing what that group has done.

They've given away hundreds of copies of this book so that the community can have this discussion.

And actually, when you get into it, it makes sense that we review this into these ideas, the ideas of the early founders.

But it does disturb me up in not a pleasant way when I think how many of them were a little bit too faced.

Yeah.

Particularly with the questions of slavery.

And and I have to say, with Jefferson, how he got so used to being in France to having the best.

And have the best wine to buy all the books.

He wanted to have Sally Hemings with him and then he just said it to me.

It broke my concentration on the Founding fathers.

But sure that's my, the person who, who is credited with, you know, penning the Declaration of Liberty and Freedom for all and, here there's a glaring inconsistency in his own life and, and it comes about we do think because he he just became a little bit too in love with the luxuries of life.

And, and that was part of it.

But then there were other founders who, you know, had different perspectives on things that kind of would counterbalance.

Do you have a favorite?

Well, I you know, I happen to like the humor of Franklin, and he, too, was a naughty man.

Naughty man.

But he didn't at first.

He believed in slavery.

But then he really backed off.

Oh, yeah.

And, but some of the others just clung to it.

It's hard to betray Franklin because he's so inventive.

He.

He created so many things that are still, you know, exceptionally meaningful for for our technologies these days.

But and so but then also his ideas.

And he was a printer.

He was a he was a publisher.

He he was an early vegetarian, you know, and so the.

Oh, my God, you're a good.

Exactly.

He's a foodie.

He's a foodie.

Well, you know what?

He, he enraged the, the king of France so much.

And you have all heard about this, chamber pot that the king of France put Franklin's face at the bottom of it.

That's how angry he was.

And that story grows and grows.

But I think Franklin enjoyed the weight of the French and of the English.

And he was almost 20 years in Europe as a as a, ancient of the American government.

Now, let's just take a minute to talk about what we're making today.

I'm doing a Yankee pot roast.

Now, Yankee usually at that time meant the north and the north.

You know, when you go to Europe today, they call us Yankee.

So that means, oh, America.

And if you are really a true Yankee, you come from the 13 states, the 13 original colonies.

Original colonies.

Yes.

So today we're doing a Yankee pot roast, and I'm doing a little I'm making some tea because they love em.

And what are you doing?

So I'm doing just a traditional Cobb salad.

And, then the various ingredients that that go along with that, we'll be doing a couple variations, maybe, on an original salad dressing that can go with it.

I brought a bottle of Madeira wine, talked about something that that the Founding Fathers would recognize.

On today's table would be a Madeira, from Madeira.

Yes.

Madeira Island outside off the coast of Portugal.

Yeah.

And so, in fact, I can I can pour us a couple of glasses and we should at least get used to it.

Yeah.

No rainwater.

This is called.

Yeah.

So the tradition of how Madeira started was it's kind of like a sherry.

But, yeah, it was left out, in America on the eastern, coast at a at a they don't say which dock or which port it was.

But here we go.

It was accidentally left out on the dock, and and it rained in the, in the, barrel for several days, and so they, they then took it back to Madeira and they realized, hey, this is a new drink.

We maybe it's it's a lighter version.

It's silly.

Yeah.

So let's try it out.

Cheers.

Cheers.

Cheers to the Founding Fathers and to rainwater.

Oh.

Oh, this will be nice by the fire in talking big ideas.

Thanks.

Thought.

Right.

Let's find a new country, shall we?

What?

How do we want to do?

Do we do this?

Yeah.

Let's.

Let's think about that.

Well, I just want to say that I have cooked my, chuck roast, because that takes hours, and I have a small piece, and I have onions cut up and I have, What else?

I've got some celery.

And I will also add some vegetables to this, and we'll let this cook a little longer.

I have, I have this is another thing they did.

They often added things like zucchini.

So I've got some zucchini.

And you know, zucchini was not in Europe.

It came from the in the South American.

And we started eating this kind of food.

But the Europeans did not until, after the great explorations.

And they went back to Europe with these ideas.

I have parboiled some of the potatoes as well, because when they say, you know, put it in a slow oven for four hours, I don't think we're going to be here for four hours.

So Papa boiling, adding some potatoes.

You know, I did like this book, and I liked I remember growing up with a mother who liked the ideas of, Franklin.

I mean, there was a we had to always go early to bed.

Early to rise, the oh my goodness regimen.

And we and we were not sleep after 9:00 in the morning because we were not leading a productive life.

And why do we, at age 17, have to sleep more?

We should be able to do things.

That was one of the things about this book that that I, I thought to myself, I don't know if I can live up to this, you know, I, I because the, the whole strict structure of, of it all.

But we know that we know that in the evening they would have their Madeira and they would have friends in, maybe they'd have a Yankee pot roast or some fish or a chicken, and they'd have somebody cooking and cleaning.

And, but Franklin, I thought, was a clever man and funny and, Well, I have to admit, if we're picking favorites, mine is George Washington.

Just because, I'm not sure the country would have made it without him.

He was the measured person who didn't make quick, fast decisions.

Thought about things thoroughly, put the brakes on an awful lot.

For those that who otherwise might want to make some very, very fast decisions and choices on some things.

And he was of the mindset, to be deliberate.

He was in control of his core passions and passions at that time didn't mean love passions.

That meant you're getting angry and you're fired up and you have a temper tantrum.

That was something I wanted to talk about.

Today is how we think of the difference between what what how we view the word passion today versus back then.

Passion was almost a four letter word to the founders because it meant that you were giving in to natural inclinations.

And but now, I think, especially in the nonprofit world, you know, oh, we're supposed to talk about our passions and wear that on your sleeve, and that's how you're successful with what you do.

The founders didn't look at the word passion in the same way.

No.

And I think in the last 20, 25, 30 years, we took a big dive in the opposite direction.

Happiness became known as physical happiness and just things that you normally weren't raised.

Talking about.

And as I say, my mother was very strict, when I wanted to bicycle, she said, give me 25, write down 25 reasons why you need a bicycle.

Now go and raise the money.

So, see, there was no such thing as I want this, I want that I had to prove why I never wanted it and then make it happen myself.

Yeah, and that was another passion in my family.

You did it on your own.

And, today, I, I just I'm just dumbfounded that way.

Some people live.

But in any case, we're getting the vegetables in here.

We have little less than a minute.

We're going to just take a little break and show you some pictures of some of the founders, and maybe you can remember your very favorite.

And when we come back, we'll do some more cooking.

We'll talk more about some of these ideas of the founders and how they have continued on being revered and reviled and reviled.

Yes, and mostly revered, though mostly right?

Yes.

So we'll be right back.

Stay with us.

And we're moving further ahead now on our food.

And you are getting your bacon ready for your getting my my bacon strips turned into bacon bits.

Oh, okay.

And I'm putting some clothes in this Yankee pot roast.

Some smashed potatoes, I mean, tomatoes.

And, we will cover it.

I'm going to add some time.

Leave those first.

And if I had my own little cottage garden.

My kitchen garden, I live on the third floor, but I do grow herbs and spices in the summer on my balcony.

But to have a kitchen garden is kind of fun idea.

Probably too much work, so I don't know.

I put I have a bay leaf in here, so we're now going to let this just cook on and make sure the zucchini gets cooked.

Now let's talk about some of these philosophers that our founders studied.

And we we hear the name Socrates.

And and here give me a few names.

Oh, Epictetus.

Stoic.

Pythagoras.

I think of him for triangles and geometry, but but he did a lot more than you thought about.

Yes, he thought about things, too.

Cicero.

Cicero was very popular in their lifetime because they did have they did study things and they even had journals you and I were talking about.

They kept journals about what they had thought at or what they had done wrong, or what they've done wrong.

They kept they kept, diaries sort of as a check on themselves just to see, did I live up to the the moral life of virtue is the virtue.

That's the word that always brings up the virtuous life.

Yeah.

And determined by these thinkers and these founders.

And I just wish they had.

Well, it was the times and every country was doing it.

But we've all paid the price of slavery and, but in any case, they were thoughtful people.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, they're thinking about how they're going to start a new country.

And so what are the models that they want to use?

And they knew they didn't wanted it to be.

They did not want it to be a monarchy.

Okay.

Right.

Some other ideas, that come along.

You know, a little bit later, weren't, weren't on the landscape yet, like socialism and communism that wasn't around for the founders so much.

But the principal thing that that they were looking at was monarchies.

We don't want to be in America.

We also wanted to separate church and state.

So how how are we going to create a new country that does not have a king that does, that is ruled by the will of the people?

Yes.

Okay.

And and create a new thought.

Balances of power.

Yeah.

Balance of power.

Checks and balances are so important.

And the rights of men, women.

And that was a long time.

And coming to, you know, the women, we're supposed to have children take care of the cottage or the house or the servants, and you know, it it it's we still have some of that a little bit left over today.

This book brings out two how different members of the founders, viewed women, you know, had great skill and abilities.

Slaves who had great skills and abilities and how they were treated somewhat fairly by some, very unfairly by others.

And so it really forces us to sort of look in that mirror and, you know, decide, you know, these are these are the people that help bring this country about.

And what was motivating them?

Were they thinking about what were they grappling with all the different struggles and tensions.

Everything was intentional.

And they went back to the, the the moral philosophers to get ideas.

And all of a sudden, what happened between, you know, 300 B.C.

or AD and all the way up to the New World, but, but they do go back to the and, you know, today some students are studying this philosophy of the founders, the morals and why why are the young people even interested in this today?

We got away from it for so long.

I mean, when I went when I went for, you know, college and I went, I got a degree in liberal studies, liberal arts, you know, it wasn't front and center that we had to study the classics.

Luckily, there were a few things that I did get some exposure to that, but not the way that that they did.

They did 100 years ago, certainly 200 years ago.

That's what it was all about back then.

And so, yeah, it was definitely teaching a different set of values, and, and practicing it, talking about practicing writing it, correcting themselves.

And, you know, there they talked about it, this club that, that, Franklin County, it was called junto.

And there was a gentile club in Elkhart.

And really, yes, there were my father was a member and my father in law.

And they were to come together and talk about ideas.

They were to talk about experiences.

They inherited that up again, which you and I can share.

We could do we could have a new junto.

Know maybe they let women in now, but it was definitely, a study.

And when I found out they had this club in Elkhart, I it was I can't remember the timing here exactly, but, I don't even know if it's still going on because I kind of drifted away from those concepts of my childhood.

So.

And then when I read that, he certainly did a lot to foster thinking, and he thought he followed well, particularly my favorite.

Franklin even used some of the, the, formations of the Native Americans, the way they met.

And they used thought and, post office.

He came up with an the fire department and, and all these things that we needed more help with.

How are you doing here with you?

I'm doing good.

You were going to show me how you like the Jews out of the lemon.

And I have, And you know another way, too, is if you find your lemon is very hard, you just put it in the microwave for about 10s and it softens.

Now I take this okay.

And oh you can get the juice out.

You can get just about the amount you want.

See I'm just squeezing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As you can see a fork.

But today you can also buy all kinds of gizmos to squeeze it.

And then how much olive oil that you want in there.

Well let's start with a tablespoon in your mind.

Well in my mind now of course this is going to be stronger with the, lemon with a little whisk.

Let's whisk.

Like season this.

Cute.

Just the right size.

Yeah.

I don't know if they had whisks, then I think they were, Oh, you know what I'm going to do?

Here's what I, I mean, I made one that's a little bit more of my family.

Traditional.

I just said, okay, vinegar, olive oil, salt and sugar needs a little salt and pepper, a little too much oil.

So I'm going to put another little squeeze.

Okay.

And this will be our dressing.

This is what the Greeks do today.

There.

They have wonderful simple dressings.

And of course ours are nice.

But each tablespoon has about 300 calories full.

That stuff.

They're so soft and good.

And then you put yours here we have these nice stripes here you put yours on half and I'll use mine on the other half.

Okay.

There we go.

I wish I did this more at home.

But I cheat.

I have, I have a maid in the store, Greek dressing that I use, and I don't know why I don't.

I don't just do this because it is.

It is healthy.

Now any more.

We talk about these virtues that we work on our temperance, our moderation, our industry, particularly sincerity.

And, they would write these lists of things.

They they were low on and they needed to work on.

If you ever found yourself doing things like that.

I actively tried not to.

You know, be intense about myself.

I mean, you know, I don't I don't want to put myself down too much.

And so that's true.

And, but, you know, I think that.

No, I, I see great value in that, obviously, a life well-lived is one that, that you're aware of.

And and it's good.

And you there's a new saying.

What really is that?

You heard it for us here today.

If you say it again.

What I say a life worth living is, is, where I know we'll have to go back and see the recording.

Anyway, it was a good idea, and I wanted to say I've been brewing some.

Well, I've got to get the water in here, and I'm brewing some tea here, some Bengal tea.

And of course, tea was pretty popular in India.

What's coming in the foreground, foreground here with the British going into India.

And we have just a minute or so here.

Bill, give me, give me a sentence about this book, but in the sense of what you think about it.

I guess I would say that, to find happiness, it's in the pursuit.

It's in the process of the pursuit.

And that.

Is there a direct quote from the book?

That, much like a hunter, tells you that that the love of the hunt is in the pursuit.

And so we find ourselves.

And what is happiness to each of us today?

It's going to be, because of what we put into the pursuit of that happiness and of the values that we value.

Yes, exactly.

So we're still doing the same thing in a way, aren't we?

Of course we are trying.

We're trying to try to do that.

Now.

This is cooking.

Yours is almost ready.

We're going to take a very short break.

And then we will wrap up our whole ideas here, our grand ideas.

In a few minutes.

We'll be right back.

In the meantime, take a look at our menu.

Well, Bill, I loved this book, and I'm glad we decided to do it.

And you're the one that talked me into doing it because I thought, how do you.

We wrap our hands around these big ideas?

Well, we did, we somehow did.

Yeah, we did.

As did everybody in our audience, too.

Oh, yes.

Read this book and take seriously the American experiment.

Right.

And and what we do with this?

Yes.

This is our country is not something that we can take for granted.

And, it is constantly, work in progress.

Challenge to challenge a work in progress.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think Jeffrey Rosen did a great job to bring that front and center and to make people think.

And that's maybe the most important thing that he did with the book.

I think you're absolutely right.

And made us stop and think, you know, what are the important things in our lives.

And when we write things and we say, this is going to be this way, how is that going to hold up over time and, and that of over time, the long view that that's the thing because we have to constantly fight that innate, passion that we have inside of us to sort of jump on the bandwagon and say, yeah, this is what we're all about, but we have to stop, reflect, think, and look at, you know, what's it going to mean down the road?

And we do our children, our grandchildren, and we do have citizens that are focused on that.

And we're happy that they are.

And I'm so glad that you suggested this.

And we just I was thinking during the night, how are we going to wrap our hands around this?

And we I think we did without being pompous.

You know, we could have been.

I hope so, with a little Madeira along the way.

You know.

Yes, I that's a good thing.

So, I'm so glad you suggested this.

I'm so glad you could come.

And, we'll find another good book for the future.

That'll be great.

I would love that.

Thank you.

You're very welcome.

And thank you.

Remember, good food, good books, good friends, good everything make for a very good life, a very happy life.

And a happy life.

The pursuit of happiness.

We'll see you next time.

This Wnit, local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

I.

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Join me and my guest from Ruth Meir Museum, Bill first and Berger, as we discuss Jeffrey Rosen's The Pursuit of Happiness.

What did happiness mean in the 1700s in Massachusetts and Virginia?

What does it mean today?

Let's find out on dinner and a book.