Hi, I'm Jeff Rea, your host for Economic Outlook.

Welcome to our show, where each week we take a deep dive into the regional economy and the people, the companies, the communities and the projects that are helping our region grow.

A significant investment in transit infrastructure has led to some major development in cities like Portland, Tucson, New Orleans and Atlanta.

One local group believes it could have a similar impact in South Bend and has prepared plans for a streetcar project that could connect major attractions.

We'll take a closer look coming up on Economic Outlook.

In the 1920s, residents flocked to the city's streetcar system in South Bend as residents as a way to get around town and to and from important destinations.

But as time has passed by, the streetcars were replaced by city busses and the automobile.

Fast forward to 2021 and ask if we're ready for a streetcar comeback.

One local group thinks that key transit infrastructure investment could help transform our regional economy.

We're going to dove deeper into transit and streetcars and talk about what it could mean for the community.

Joining me for that conversation are Chuck Lehman, principal at Lehman and Lehman in Mishawaka, Jan Cervelli, principal Serry Terra and former president of St. Mary's College.

And Doug Hunt from Holiday Properties.

Just one other note before we get started here at WNIT, we're respecting, social distancing and as such have both our host and our guests joining us today virtually instead of in person.

Guys, thank you for joining me today.

Really appreciate you coming on board and talking a little bit about just kind of transit and sort of its impact on--on communities.

Chuck, I want to come your way a little bit first and just talk maybe historically about the role that transit has played and kind of the development of communities.

Obviously, cities around the country have made major investment in transit as a way to kind of spur development.

Just give us maybe some historical perspective on transit.

Thanks, Jeff.

The--the aspect of transit, historically, South Bend was one of those earlier cities that had streetcars and it was used for transportation; transportation to get into the downtown, but also to get into work.

Many of those things have transitioned with the automobile taken over as priorities.

And I think the aspect of how streetcars to modern-day streetcars are kind of rejuvenating that idea of bringing back transportation as a piece of infrastructure, almost like a utility, and that we could use that as a--as a resource to get to the downtown, to get to the destination points throughout the community as well.

Great, Doug, let me come your way.

You spent your career in the development business as you're seeing development involved in projects and such.

Talk a little bit about the role that transit plays in--in--in the development community.

Well, to the extent that you make it easier for people to interact, especially these days, not necessarily with a car, you're going to create the opportunity for economic transactions, whether it's employment, retail, food service, cultural experiences, a whole range of things that involve people having that experience, but also in many cases, exchanging money and giving merchants a reason to provide various services.

That also leads, then, to tax base and that leads to increased public revenue.

And that's the cycle, I think, that we have a real opportunity to pursue here, in addition to all the non-economic issues as far as a livable, walkable neighborhoods, cultural exchanges, a whole range of things just because you're making it easy for people to move about the community.

Jan, I'd like to come your way and I just-- as I'm thinking out loud about transit, you know, I think Chuck mentioned earlier streetcars and such back in the 1920s in the South Bend area.

But overall, I think historically as a nation, we got away from transit for a little while.

Probably the automobiles were cheap, gas was affordable, and people liked the independence that came by it.

Other forms of transportation replaced some of those.

But your experience has been living in communities that have experienced transit.

You've spent some time studying this issue.

Talk a little bit about that evolution and what your experience has been or what you're seeing in some of those other communities.

Sure.

Happy to, Jeff.

I think what we're seeing is a rebirth, a reversal of that trend that you just described, so that as we're an urbanizing nation, people are moving into cities more and more and they like the urban life with a lot of people comes things like traffic congestion, pollution, and a lot of people today, whether they be millennials, baby boomers, Gen Zers, that they're finding the car to be a real hassle or something they just don't want to invest in or can't afford to.

And so they're looking for alternatives to transportation and addition to the car.

So transit is a very important word that it entails many different forms of trans--transit, in addition to the car; bicycles, walking, buses, light rail and modern streetcars.

And I want to underscore what a modern streetcar is.

I think there's a tendency to have the sort of nostalgic sense of a streetcar.

And we even see that from the photos of the 1920s here in South Bend.

When we talk modern streetcar, we're talking about--we're not talking about a trolley and we're not talking about a vehicle that's on wheels.

We're talking about a super modern contemporary vehicle that runs on rails in the ground, but it rides very low to the ground and glides right up to the curb.

It's made primarily of glass.

And you can see basically through the structure and it runs with the traffic.

And it is one of the more preferred forms of public transportation.

When you look at all the studies, it exceeds the demand and the desirability over buses.

And so I think it's important to define what a modern streetcar is and how it's different.

If we're looking at city building today and into the future, we're not looking or talking about nostalgic tourism trolleys.

This is a very different tool that drives and serves transit, yes, but it is probably even more powerfully an economic development tool because everywhere it stops, development takes place.

And then in the in between those stops, development takes place.

So the city grows, density grows, tax revenue grows, and the needs of the community are met at the same time.

Jan, if you don't mind, I'm going to stay with you for a quick second for a follow up.

So--so obviously we're all in a race to attract those millennials and grow our population and have that development and such here on.

Some have recognized transit is--as that important tool that will help them get in there.

Can you speak to just some of the communities in the United States, for example, that are doing this and doing it well that we would look to from--as a model?

Well, I'll--I'll start with a city which I had direct involvement in when I was dean of architecture, planning and landscape architecture, the college, the University of Arizona.

I was involved with the city and the planning of their streetcar.

And this started back in 2012.

They started the planning.

They were able to secure a grant from the federal government that--that helped pay for more than half of the--of the cost of it.

And they were looking to primarily serve the needs of transit.

That I'll tell you, the area that they ran the line was through the downtown.

They were connecting the university to the downtown and to the west side of downtown.

I can tell you downtown, back in those days was not a place that many people wanted to be.

It was empty.

It was in worse shape than downtown South Bend or Mishawaka.

It was a scary place.

There was no services, no much restaurants.

And so the mere announcement that the city was able to secure this major grant from the government confirmed that this was going to happen.

And that's when the development started, literally started along the streetcar route itself, the investment by developers, for offices, for restaurants, for housing.

So it has today generated three billion dollars in public and private investment along a four-mile route.

And that was for a project that was an investment of one hundred and fifty million dollars investment returned on that three billion investment.

That doesn't include the tax revenue that's been generated over that time.

So what was discovered in Tucson, and I think there was no sense that this was going to be as successful as it was in that--in that way.

And so I think other communities have found the same success.

Kansas City, their initial route was relatively short and downtown, they've just secured their second major federal grant to extend the route.

Cincinnati has had that success.

Milwaukee, there's multiple if you go to the RiverRail.com Website, you'll see a list of communities that have seen these benefits from these investments.

So I want to just underscore these are investments in the long term city building and economic development.

This is not a cast to the past.

So Chuck, I'm going to come your way.

And I think a little bit--so both you and Jan and Doug, all three of you been heavily involved in planning, whether it's planning communities.

Chuck, talk a little about just sort of this planning process.

You know, it's interesting because I like--I like I think sometimes planning is not named the right--it's reacting.

A lot of communities do more reacting than than planning.

I love the--the Chinese proverb that says 'The best time to plant a tree is today.

The second best time is 20 years ago'.

And so--so help us understand sort of the-- maybe the timing, the planning piece of it and why it's important to to be thinking about these kind of things right now.

Sure, thanks.

I think the idea of planning always begins, as you said, 20 years ago would have been the best time to start.

I think the idea of where we are right now, we--we posed the issue.

We posed the question of the possibility.

I have to be honest with you.

We're--we're surprised by the number of people that have responded with interest and with enthusiasm on that.

Part of this approach is looking at--conducting a feasibility study.

And that feasibility study would be something that would generate the--the inventory, the needs of--of a transit system like this.

But the benefit of that is that if we're going to be applying for any type of federal--state or federal grants, it's going to require an application of some sort.

And this feasibility study would be part of that that would roll over into that application.

The--the approach that we're looking at is that we're building a--we're members of a task force, but we're building the momentum of an advisory group that will be part of that--that movement of--of this planning effort.

So this isn't something, as I said before, is not something that's going to happen overnight.

It's going to take some time.

But we're looking at being transparent and allowing this many people with enthusiasm and interests and passions to consider this.

Jeff, this is Doug, I want to point out, because Chuck mentioned the advisory committee that the--the structure with the HDR folks that we are proposing that the--the city support provides for a project management team.

And that's basically the public officials like Amy Hill, for example.

Transpo would be on it.

The NPO folks, other folks, the advisory committee, which is the one that we would expect to continue to work with, would be much larger.

I think we've already had enough interest to serve on that committee.

We could staff it today, but we want to continue to reach out to people because that's an important part of building the momentum and bringing in the experience to get this done.

Jeff, one other thing I would want to say, too.

I think the result of planning is just basically a good education, is good understanding of what the planning and efforts are.

And so part of this planning is to educate the community as well.

Great, thanks Chuck.

Doug, I'm going to come back your way.

And I want to think a little bit about with your development hat on, something like that, like there's a little bit of a chicken and egg issue here, I think, in my head.

And I want you to help us address that.

You know, sometimes developers are--they want critical mass, maybe before they invest.

So so which should come first?

Should--should some redevelopment action happen and then the then some transit would enhance and add that?

Would the transit go in place?

Just talk a little bit about kind of timing and what comes first.

Well, I think there's going to be a parallel process that HDR, the consultant, has a number of really neat programs to analyze the demographics of a community which is important to funding, by the way, and they will form the basis for what will be an economic impact analysis.

So I think what we probably do, and Jan can add to this possibly, is that they would come up with a proposal line, proposed stations, and then what you do and I know that one of her colleagues back at the University of Arizona is a nationally known expert on this.

You, then, you figure out what's the kind of development that's going to be driven by the proximity to that station, whether it's a retail office or residential.

And with that, you can figure out the investments that you can expect to have.

It's you know, it's a--it's a very well understood process.

But you are trying to project the future.

So there's always, you know, always doubts as you move through it.

And I think we are very fortunate in our community.

We have had real investments along the suggested route that have been very successful in downtown South Bend, Notre Dame.

You look along Mishawaka Avenue and into downtown Mishawaka, if you think about it, too, we have--we have educational institutions along that route in addition to Notre Dame.

We have one--we have two of the top high schools in the state of Indiana along that route.

We have Indiana University, South Bend, Potawatomi Park.

So I think we already have not only eggs, but we have more than chicks.

We have really great successful amenities there that we can already build on.

So that's kind of why that suggested route goes where it does.

And streetcars do best when there's already these points of success, it accelerates the success of those points in their development and growth and then it fills in the in-between.

Great.

Chuck, I'm going to come your way.

You mentioned as you were talking a little bit about process, so, you know, just in the interest of just being honest here, transit systems can cost a lot of money, too.

In fact, when you look around the country, they have some potential big price tags that could scare people away.

Talk about whether the--the environment is ripe on the--on the money side to sort of capitalize on--on resources to--to get a transit project done.

Yeah, and I think the aspect of, that's a great question, and again, we're not a municipality the size of Chicago or New York or even Kansas City, we're a smaller community.

And I think with that gives us some little bit more leverage, possibly.

The idea of doing a feasibility study, looking at how that planning will be looked at.

As far as usership, as far as assisting as Jan shared, we've got a lot of dots along that transit route that will--will be of interest to encourage that.

I think the other aspect is that, you know, as a region, we're trying to attract and retain talent and grow our population.

Many of the millennials right now don't want to have a vehicle or be responsible for that vehicle.

Having something like this will actually grow the interest of--of utilizing this as a--as a resource for them to be mobile within the--within the community, connecting key elements within our region itself.

Doug, I'm going to come your way because the hot term, I think, in economic development these days is is either TDD or TOD, transportation oriented development.

Speak a little bit to the--kind of that and why that's important to communities.

Well, I think it's in part goes back to the--what you create to attract folks.

And we talked about walkability and livability.

And one particular thing that I that I guess I think is a great opportunity is that we can offer a community to Notre Dame.

Notre Dame has one hundred and twenty thousand alums and many of them are very successful.

Most of them, like me, I'm a domer, have a soft spot in their heart for the college, for the university.

And I think that we can attract folks to invest in a community that can offer these kinds of amenities, whether they're here or whether they are coming to teach.

And they have a spouse who needs to find a good job opportunity as well.

So it all kind of fits together and creating a vibrant community that is culturally vibrant.

And we have a lot of opportunity with our downtown dining district, I call it, in Michigan--Michigan street from the Morris all the way down to the new library to create an asset that's going to be of value to not just those in the city, but those who drive or come to the community on the streetcar and enjoy that.

Same with the farmer's market.

It's just that's--that's a Midwest gem.

So we've got these things to build on.

We don't need to think that say that this is just a new day.

We are willing to exploit all the wonderful assets this community has, which includes, in my view, its DNA.

We just have a tradition that's been a few years.

But we were the Sun Belt, you know, Silicon Valley, rather, of its day.

And we need to recover that DNA.

It's still in us, Jan, I'm going to come your way.

So--so obviously, when projects big projects that potentially get big price tags, you guys have mentioned there are--there are fans and there are naysayers, perhaps both.

In Tucson, my guess, your experience was similar that a few people probably thought, how could this ever work and how can we find enough money and how will we operate those kind of things.

Talk about that maybe sort of the effort to to help, you know, kind of educate the community and help them understand the benefits and then sort of seeing that through to the--to the real results.

Yeah, it's--it's really kind of deja vu.

Much of the response and reaction is very similar.

And I would suspect in other communities as well.

In a--you know, the price tag, I think, is something that people are just not used to the cost of infrastructure, because we haven't made in recent years a lot of major investments in infrastructure.

It is expensive.

However, money is available for that.

And the timing now is really is of the essence.

I want to spend just a minute on that and I'll talk about Tuscon a bit more.

Right now, we have funds that already are available from the federal government.

And then on top of that, we have this stimulus money that's going to be flowing into the states.

We have the Biden proposals for infrastructure investments we have in our own city, our own state has done great work with investments and in regional cities.

And so I think there is no better time than now that I can think of in history for this community to take on this project.

Yes, it appears big, but I think it's something we can accomplish by working together.

The city of South Bend, the city of Mishawaka, the county, MACOG, Notre Dame, I think we can pull together and pull a project like this off.

I think we have the capacity to do that.

Back to Tucson.

How did they get over some of the perceptions of it?

I think the first important thing was to--they went on a major educational effort with the community as to what is a modern streetcar.

And they had many, many, many public meetings, of course it's before the COVID days, but they had a task force that met with all the constituencies that would be impacted or involved in the planning.

The upfront planning is really important to be transparent and involve the community in that.

Through that happened a lot of education as to how streetcars work and what the benefits would be.

And so I think that would be an important part of this planning process is to have this advisory group, to have a lot of contact, whether it's virtual or whether it's in person.

Hopefully we can get back to that all along the way, up to the point of the opening of that streetcar and beyond.

To be able to make sure that it's functioning well and working on behalf of all.

Jeff, This is Doug.

I want to say Jan mentioned the advisory committee.

That's a critical component here.

And it is one that we are committed to continue to work--to develop.

We have already have, as I said, an expression of interest from a number of folks.

That committee is going to be very active.

It's going to address and be addressed by folks from all across the community.

And that's a continuing commitment that we're--we're willing to make, even as the engineers and the technician are doing their work.

Great, Doug, we're down about three minutes here and so I'm going to maybe follow up with you.

So, so, so, so fixed route versus flexible route.

So--so some folks might say, wait, why don't you just do a trolley?

That way you can evolve.

As with needs, you can switch the route if necessary versus a--a--a hard fixed rail investment.

What would be the reason you do one versus the other?

Well, as you know, I'm a former public official and we all love public officials.

But, you know, times can change.

And as Jan has pointed out numerous times, this commitment really is a physical commitment to put the transportation in there for good, for the tracks in the--in the ground.

And there's other infrastructure that would go with it.

So it's that sense of assurance.

And I can tell you as a developer and by the way, I have no interest in any of these projects except to promote them for the community, but that once you know something is done, an investment by the community, in this case in rail and stations and other infrastructure, you're going to feel comfortable in, frankly, exploiting that potential to the benefit of your company as well as the community.

If I could just follow up on that, too.

The fixed rail itself will have a designated route, this is to complement the existing Transpo bus systems as well.

That's really more of the flexibility to actually get off the route and move that.

So this is the complement to that.

The idea of having this in a--in a fixed manner is already going to be within public right away.

So there's not going to be much of any land acquisition that would be required because of it.

Great, thanks, Chuck.

So Chuck, I'm going to stay with you for a second, about a minute left, so so again next--remind us next steps kind of timing and where people might find more information about the effort.

Sure.

The next steps, we're going to continue to talk to city leadership regarding this feasibility study on this proposal.

For those who want more information, we have established both a Facebook page and a Web site regarding this.

And we do respond to anybody that has interest in that.

We--there's a lot of information.

We're updating it daily with with new information that gives more of the educational component as well.

So this is we're on the very front end, but we're very much excited about the response so far from the community on this idea and concept.

Jan, I'll give you the final word in 30 seconds.

Well, let's--let's have this vision.

Let's take it forward.

This is a project that we can do if we all work together.

This is building for the future.

Great, well, thank you guys so much look forward to talking more as this--this concept develops.

Appreciate you bringing it to us today and helping us better understand a little bit about transit and how it impacts communities.

That's it for our show today.

Thank you for watching WNIT or listening to our podcast to watch this episode again and every a past episodes, you can find Economic Outlook at WNIT or find our podcast on most major podcast platforms.

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I'm Jeff Rea.

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