Hi, I'm Jeff Rea your host for Economic Outlook.

Thank you for joining us.

We hope you make plans each week to tune in on WNIT or WNIT2, online at WNIT.org or listen our podcast on the show on most major podcast platforms.

She leads the team at IUSB Center for a Sustainable Future where they work to discover and disseminate practices and strategies that are ecologically friendly, economically sound and socially responsible.

We're sitting down with Krista Bailey from the Center for a Sustainable Future coming up on Economic Outlook.

Before we get started, here at WNIT we're respecting social distancing and as such, have both our host and our guest joining us today virtually instead of in person.

They're working to position Michiana as one of the most vibrant and leading regions in the newly emerging green economy.

And for the past decade, they've been developing a sustainability curriculum, facilitated research on sustainability and fostered civic engagement to help develop sustainability action plans.

Joining me today to talk more about the Center for Sustainable Future is Krista Bailey, the center's director.

Krista, welcome.

Hi, Jeff.

Thanks a lot.

Hey, it's good to see you today.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

You're no stranger to WNIT.

You--we've seen you on Outdoor Elements.

Tell us a little bit about--first about just your involvement at WNIT and some of the stuff that you've done here.

Sure.

My pleasure.

It started Mike Keen and I, who I know will hear from later, started proposing little sustainability segments that got inserted into shows.

I think it started with Experience Michiana and we would bring people into the studio and just chat with them about what it was that they were doing.

That evolved over the years, and I started doing pieces on Outdoor Elements about what you were seeing in action in terms of sustainability.

And then that became clear over time.

I think that it was a better piece for Experience Michiana, how people could get out and actually experience sustainability, or maybe ways that they were experiencing it, but didn't recognize it as such.

So I get a lot of joy out of uplifting some of the really amazing things going on in the region that we don't really recognize or acknowledge as sustainable practices.

Being, I would say, modest Midwesterners, we don't brag about all this stuff, all that and often enough.

So it's been fun to go out and say, Wow, what you're seeing here isn't just a nature preserve.

It isn't just a restaurant.

They're doing amazing things for our economy and our environment and our society.

So that's been a lot of fun and enabled me to get out and learn a lot about our region as well.

Great.

Well, thank you.

We're glad to have you join our show today for a little longer conversation about sustainability and some of the work that you do.

But we appreciate all that you've done for the station in the past to help us--help our audience become more educated.

So maybe for somebody who hasn't caught any of those who--who maybe doesn't, let's--let's kind of level set.

When we're--when we're talking sustainability, help us understand what that means to the layman who--who maybe doesn't have a good understanding about it.

Sure.

Yeah, that's a very good starting place.

Well, sustainable practices and sustainable development take a balanced approach to planning and design and implementation, making sure that its environmentally--is environmentally responsible, economically viable and socially responsible.

So looking at issues of equity and inclusion and justice, but also making sure that our environment is going to be healthy enough to sustain us and of course, that our economy is also healthy enough to sustain us, which we really depend on just as much as all the other pieces.

So it's really a balanced approach to all three of those is what sustainability teaches.

And so, Krista--and I think about sort of your job at the center for--so your focus is on--on who it's--it's--it's individual people, it's businesses, it's the community as a whole.

Tell us a little bit about who--who the--who the target audience is for the work that the center is doing.

Yeah, great question.

And I get that on campus a lot, too.

I'm actually in a really lucky position, I think in that my role is feet in two different worlds as it were.

Definitely looking at campus engagement and education around sustainability issues and taking advantage of the opportunities that we have on campus to operate more sustainably.

But then my other foot is in the community, really working with community partners, whether they're businesses, other universities, cities to also do the same thing, provide education, awareness and engagement around sustainable practices.

So I do a little bit of both.

Over the years, that's meant doing workshops in the community, inviting leaders from nonprofits and businesses to learn about sustainability, what it is and how to do it, but also doing a variety of programs; inviting campus and community in to hear about what's happening across the region.

So we had to add several years of a very successful speaker series, bringing folks in to talk about what they were doing related to sustainability, but then also doing campus projects, one of which more popular ones, which I know we have community people coming to campus to engage with as well, is a recycling of plastic bottle tops because it is a different plastic than the bottle.

So we have a few buckets around campus where we collect the bottle tops.

We donate them to the Elkhart County 4-H fair and they send them to a company in southern Indiana, recycle that plastic into benches and picnic tables.

And--but a student proposed this initially, as I work with students really closely, and when they brought the idea to me, I thought, 'Well, that's cute and sure that'll make a difference.

It's bottle tops.

They're small.

And it's a little bit of a logistical issue.

But whatever.'

But, they set it up, they said, 'No, it'll work.

It can make it happen'.

And boy, if that isn't the most popular program we've ever run on campus and people contact me from the community, 'Where can I bring my bottle tops?'.

And people, I found a huge bag in the hallway the other day, next to one of the buckets because they were collecting them at home for I don't even know how long.

So it's really--all of our projects have an eye on both campus and community, education and engagement and sustainability.

So--so the center has been around, I think, what, a little more than a decade now.

It seems that sustainability is getting a lot more attention today than it was even, you know, a decade ago.

Why the--why the increased interest from folks?

What sparked the--the interest in more folks getting involved in this?

Well, honestly, I think it's it makes me happy as an educator to think that people are actually learning about the crises we're facing in the face of climate change and realizing that we all need to learn a little bit more, to do a little bit more.

And how can we do that?

So, I think that awareness is really getting out, but it's also coming from peers in the field, whether it's my students coming in that are hearing about it from their friends and family, or it's coming from businesses in the region that are maybe supplying larger producers with things or hearing from peers that they have sustainability plans and they're not sure what that means or how to do it.

So I think there's a lot of peer influence that's been involved with that, as well as just a heightened awareness.

And certainly, the recent report released by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, calling it code red for humanity, I guess helps in that respect.

It's really caught a lot of people's attention.

And so I think initially we, like, we think of--of some of the--some trends, you know, start somewhere else.

It's a big city, it's a West Coast, you know, larger city.

So--so what you're saying is, you know, it may have started in those places, but--but definitely has taken hold here in the Midwest and is kind of growing in interest.

Oh, absolutely.

We've got a lot of leaders across the Midwest in issues relating to sustainability.

Chicago has a lot of green roofs and they have for ten, twenty years as a way to combat the heat island effect in cities, but also to provide more habitat for pollinators.

You can buy a Chicago rooftop honey.

So there's things happening in the Midwest that aren't happening other places to kind of lead in this field.

Michigan, the state of Michigan, has a lot of interesting initiatives going on as well in terms of working on zero waste initiatives, whether it's for your event or for your city.

And looking at ways to compost and reduce waste in all kinds of things.

So there's--there are a lot of things happening across the Midwest.

But as I've mentioned before, I really think it's sort of our just general modesty that, of course, we're doing that because it's a smart, good thing to do.

But it's not that we're going to go brag about it.

I think you get more of that in on the coast.

So we've been not necessarily behind the curve, we've just been a lot quieter about it.

So I'm talking to Krista Bailey, the director of the Center for a Sustainable Future at Indiana University South Bend.

Krista, I'm going to leave this studio for a second.

We're going to go out into the field.

George Lepeniotis, my co-host, has a story here locally about some sustainable practices.

George, let me pass it on to you.

Thanks, Jeff.

I'm in downtown South Bend.

Or actually, I'm in Portage Midtown along with Mike Keen.

Mike, thanks for being with us today.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Mike, you are a member of a development group that is based here on Portage Avenue, South Bend.

The name of this neighborhood, as you call it, is Portage Midtown and you are doing some very unique things in this neighborhood.

Tell me a little bit about first off, your history and what brought you to begin developing on Portage Avenue in South Bend?

Well, I was I've lived in this neighborhood for 30 years since I came to Notre Dame to get my Ph.D., and then I worked at IU South Bend for 30 years, first as a professor of sociology.

But then, I developed their sustainability studies program and sustainability studies is about trying to do everything that is ecologically friendly, socially inclusive and responsible and economically sound.

And so after having developed that program and felt it was in good shape in 2016, I decided that I would leave the university and see if I could put what we were teaching into practice.

Now you said to me before we went on camera, and I thought it was a great line, you said 'It's one thing to teach it, but people take you more seriously when you put your money behind it'.

So you left academia where you were teaching the concepts of sustainability.

You look to your own neighborhood and you are now a developer.

Yeah, I sometimes refer to myself as the accidental developer.

And I thought I was going to leave the university, become a consultant and help my partner build, Dwayne Borkholder of New Energy Homes, build one home to produce as much energy as it uses.

So I began that process, but then we were starting to get ready to build a house.

Well, then we had this building over here that wasn't quite right, so we had to kind of fix that up.

And then the one next door where we're going to make that one work, we have to make that one and fix that up.

And then there was all these vacant lots and all of a sudden, within a year of leaving the university, I'd had one or two consulting gigs.

I owned a building that need to be renovated and six vacant lots we needed to build on.

So your group owns approximately three acres on--on Portage here in this-- Within a block of right here on Portage along Rex and Cushing.

And right across the way, we will get to it in a second, is the old bakery.

Old Ward Bakery building.

That's right.

That's near and dear to your heart, and a lot of people want to know more about it.

I'm going to get there.

But before we get there on, talk a little bit about the structures behind.

They're teeny houses, but they're not quite so teeny houses now.

No.

Basically, a tiny house is going to be somewhere around two hundred and fifty to four to six hundred square feet.

These are on the upper level of that.

These are six hundred square feet.

We actually can build anything from two hundred and fifty on up.

So now there's--there's two or three here in a row.

Some have different sizes, but the one behind us is truly the model and it was the result of your efforts, your partners efforts, to design a home that is net neutral, right?

Right, it's net zero, it produces as much energy as it uses.

And so you've done that with some solar panels on the roof.

Some unique construction methods as well as some thoughtful use of energy savings.

Is the idea for this model, because you told me before we went on site--on--on air, profit or, at least, some profit is a motive.

Is the idea that these could be replicated in other places?

Absolutely.

And for us, the triple bottom line, you have to be economically sound.

But we also want to be socially responsible and ecologically friendly.

And so what's happening is we're not going to make quite as much as we might be able to because we're balancing it off.

But we're also not doing something like, well, we're just going to make this thing totally sustainable all at once right now, regardless of what the cost of technologies are because we're not there yet.

It's a balance.

And that balance is achieved in what is a very livable structure, right?

I mean, I--we walked in, you showed me around.

Our viewers are going to see some of the structure.

It is very comfortable, very livable and it has all of the conveniences that we've come to accept in modern society.

So what is the next step for these?

You said something before we went on air about incremental development?

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Well, incremental development is kind of sustainability, you know, is sort of one step at a time.

But, to be socially inclusive and--and responsible, we're doing something called increment--incremental development.

And the goal of Incremental Development Alliance that we partner with is to create a thousand small scale developers across the country with the mission of creating wealth in neighborhoods for neighborhoods.

And our method is specifically geared towards neighborhoods that are somewhat underserved or under-resourced because a standard developer can't come in and dump a lot of money and walk away.

Here we don't call it developing.

We call it farming because we're here for a decade or two.

And that's what it takes to start in a place where you might have an appraisal gap, but over time you help to develop that out.

And then, in the end, the people who developed it are still the people who are living here.

We're not trying to push people out.

So it's good for property values.

Yes.

It's good for the environment.

Yes.

It's great for the municipality.

Yeah.

And so there's really no downfall.

There's always going to be a downfall of something.

I hate to make big claims.

I like to under-promise and overdeliver.

But what I would just say is this is a form of social entrepreneurship that we see developing that we think is an alternative to some of the kinds of just make money, no matter what that we've seen over the last couple of decades.

And--but not ignore the process that you also have got to make money.

That's great, a great way to put it.

Now I'm going to switch gears because this is the hot topic.

Let's talk about the word 'bakery'.

All right.

The elephant in the room.

You started in this neighborhood, you did not own the Ward Bakery Building.

No, we did not.

Matter of fact, you probably didn't even want it to be there anymore.

Well, what happened is the N&N was trying--our Near Northwest neighborhood--was trying to get affordable apartments in there.

I owned a couple of lots that they needed in order to make that happen the sixth time.

And I said, 'I will sell you these lots for our price if you can make that happen.

But if you don't get it the sixth time', I said, 'I want you to knock it down'.

And that's the dream we had.

But then my partner from Texas, who is the founder of the Incremental Development Alliance, came in, saw that building and said, 'Mike, this building is too beautiful to knock down, and I can help you figure out how to make it work'.

And I thought, that's brilliant, because the best and most sustainable building is not one that's built new, but one that has all of this already in it.

And you could never build today--you could never build a building like this because we simply could not afford to do that.

Before we met, every time I drive by it, I've thought the same thing.

It's a beautiful building.

So what is your plan for it?

Well, we're going to turn it into what we call a collaborative village.

So we're going to basically put it into approximately fifty to seventy retail, office and other units.

And the idea is that the places will be between two hundred and two thousand square feet, and we're looking for people who are mature businesses.

But we're also looking for people who are sort of ready to move the next step, as well as we're looking for people who are starting up their first business and so that we can do mentoring for each other.

So on this side of the street, you're farming houses.

On that side of the street, you're baking business.

There we go.

Mike, thank you for being with us.

Thank you for--for showing us around the awesome neighborhood.

And thanks for the passion.

Good luck out here on the south side or west side of South Bend.

Jeff, back to you in the studio.

I know you're going to talk more about some of these developments.

But it's been a really great day to come out here and see how creative thought is changing our communities one little step at a time.

George, thanks.

Appreciate the inside look at some things going on in the community.

Really appreciate that.

What a great story.

So, Krista, we're coming back here and you know, our focus here is traditionally business, what's going on in the business community, the economy, some of that kind of stuff.

So--So, you know, talk to us, you know, businesses are--have a lot of things on their mind.

They're driven by the bottom line.

They're trying to make ends meet.

Tell us a little bit about why businesses should care more about sustainability.

Sure.

You know, I get that question a lot.

I think there's an old fashioned belief at this point that you can have profit or you can have sustainability, but you can't do both.

But in fact, what sustainability offers and what a lot of businesses are finding out, small and large businesses, is you can reap financial benefits from the competitive advantage that sustainable products and practices offer you.

It's a great opportunity for innovation, so it can really be the first to do something or to do something in a new way.

Also, just cost savings from efficiencies that might not be immediate, right within the next month or quarter or within the next year or two would be a great return on that investment.

Also, just being able to comply with current and upcoming regulations and avoiding risks.

And of course, reducing waste and making a healthier, engaging environment for people to work in helps a lot with that big expense that businesses experience.

And that's, you know, hiring people, looking for people and hiring people.

So there's a number of areas that benefit--businesses could benefit from just turning even a slight focus toward sustainability.

Sure.

And so--so I think oftentimes we see maybe some of the bigger businesses across the country leading the way.

Some folks, maybe who--who have, you know, some--some deeper pockets or more resources to attach to it.

So talk to us a little bit about, though it's not just a big business thing, it's a small business thing as well, too.

And talk about small business--maybe the difference?

Are there small businesses involved or small businesses becoming more involved?

I guess some advice to the small business guy that's out there wondering if he can afford to do anything in the--with time or money in the sustainability space.

Sure.

And really, our small businesses can be the most powerful influencers for sustainability change and can make the biggest impact on our region.

You see this--I remember a story from--its West Coast, but it's a small pizza place based in Portland, Oregon, that decided they wanted to operate more sustainably.

And so they started looking at their supply chain.

They started looking at their light bulbs.

They started looking at what they were paying people.

They kind of took a systems approach of that.

So they started sourcing more local food to put on their pizza.

They started delivering pizzas in electric cars and on bicycles.

So this caught the attention of area farmers, of course, but also the public.

So it raised some visibility there.

They started changing light bulbs and making some small efficiency things that save them a lot of money.

But altogether, all of these initiatives built up a really loyal clientele, gave them that marketing advantage to get loyal customers in and keep them in.

There's restaurants in this area, too, that are doing that, saying, 'Well, we need to build a restaurant.

What do we build it out of?

How do we power it?

Where do we get the food from?

Can we grow our own food right here?'

So, that's happening in this area, as well, that's enabling a whole ecosystem of businesses.

They are supporting that other business.

So, creating sustainable supply chains in our area has been really exciting development I've seen in this area.

So--so when I think locally.

So are there--are there companies or organizations that are kind of leading the way?

If folks here we're looking for inspiration, where would they look locally for some inspiration on some folks who are--are doing sustainability and doing it well?

Well, in terms of local restaurant, for example, River St. Joe, just across the state line here is one of the greenest places I've been in the region.

A really mindful approach to how they do everything.

Plus, it's fun to visit the farm where they're growing the food for the restaurant and growing the hops for their beer.

So that's fun, too.

If you're looking kind of larger scale, Pratt Industries in Valparaiso is one of the largest corrugated packaging companies.

But, they make all of their packaging out of recycled product, so their cost to buy the materials is basically nothing because it's all reclaimed recycled materials.

And their operation has just been a great success story in terms of bringing a sustainability mindset to big business.

I mean, they're supplying packaging for Home Depot and Amazon, so they're definitely someone to learn from.

There's also, in Southwest Michigan, there's a sustainable business forum that has regular meetings, webinars, social hours where you can learn who else is involved with sustainable business in the region, which is everyone from Goodwill to Whirlpool to South Bend Zone Innovative solar, as well as area colleges and universities, and some parks and things like that.

So, those--that would be a great place to look for folks that are interested in seeing who's doing it and why and what's working.

And how do I learn more about sustainable business for them?

I personally find this a great resource, and it's really fun to learn from the businesses that I meet there.

Great.

So, Krista, in our last couple of minutes here, about two minutes left.

So--so again, if somebody is thinking about starting, you mentioned that the forum as--a--as a great resource.

But help me think that you know, in the--in the workforce themselves, should they be thinking about--what should they be thinking about?

Waste, energy costs, water usage, you know, for somebody who needs to get started?

What advice would you give them on getting started in this process?

That's a good question, and the easy answer would be here's the top 10 things you can do, except it doesn't apply to everybody.

So what we teach our students and what we have taught in our workshops is to bring a planning framework to your looking at sustainability, to start thinking about where are we now?

Where do we want to be, and then how do we get there?

So it might be that I say, 'well, Jeff, the best way to operate your--your stuff is to change all your light bulbs to LED'.

And you're like, 'I already done it.

So I'm good'.

So I haven't helped you a bit, but enabling you with some tools to start seeing what's going on with the whole system that's running your business is really the best place to start.

So it could be changing light bulbs.

It could be something more--might be a little bit more expensive, it might take a little more time.

But looking towards is that going to get us where we want to be as a business?

And what kind of time and money we're able to put into that and what we want to get out of it?

So I know the center does offer those workshops, still.

So, if you did want to kind of walk through that process and start the planning process, I'd be thrilled to talk with people about that.

It's always exciting to see what people are interested in and able to do once they get that understanding.

Sure.

So, in just our last 30 seconds or so--so if they want to find you at the center, want to plug into that, where would we send them to?

Well, we do have a website you can find it.

Sustainthefuture.iusb.edu.

We'll take you right to our website and you can find out all kinds of resources that there are in the area.

Connect with us on social media or contact information there.

And you can get a glimpse, and I know you've seen this, Jeff, at some of these workshops, this kind of workshop that we could offer.

Great.

She's Krista Bailey.

She's the director of the Sustainable Future at IUSB.

Krista, thank you so much for joining us today.

I actually butchered the name, I'm really sorry.

The Center for a Sustainable Future.

So Krista Bailey, the Center for a Sustainable Future at IUSB.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I really appreciate it.

Thanks, Jeff.

Hopefully, we'll get to talk again.

Sounds good.

That's it for our show today.

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I'm Jeff Rea.

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